[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Lava Lamp Freak 

I have some good news and some bad news for you. The good news is you're not alone in your way of thinking. There are tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of people who would agree with you. The bad news is they're all crackpots.

Unfortunately for you, it's more than hundreds of thousands. A recent survey says 10% of the American population has witnessed a UFO...(this is probably extendable to the entire world)...and 80% believe in some form or other in UFOs or extra-terrestrial life.

Whether true or not...this means you're surrounded by crackpots. Or perhaps, *you're* the crackpot. I mean, if you're going to label what you thought was a minority group of people "crackpots", and you suddenly realized that you're actually part of the minority group that decided to keep the blinders on, then by your very standards, you are the crackpot.

It's ok though. I don't label people crackpots. You're not a crackpot. It's ok to not believe there is life out there, observing us right now...or not believe that impending doom could be near...or believe that Bill Nye is an awesome guy.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Unfortunately for you, it's more than hundreds of thousands. A recent survey says 10% of the American population has witnessed a UFO...(this is probably extendable to the entire world)...and 80% believe in some form or other in UFOs or extra-terrestrial life.

UFOs are not proof of extraterrestrial life — they're just proof of a person's inability to identify a flying object. I have a standing offer from my uncle in the Air Force to help me see some UFOs next time I visit.

[Lava Lamp Freak]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Unfortunately for you, it's more than hundreds of thousands. A recent survey says 10% of the American population has witnessed a UFO...(this is probably extendable to the entire world)...and 80% believe in some form or other in UFOs or extra-terrestrial life.

I do not doubt the existence of life outside of this small planet. Also I see UFOs all of the time. I've never seen an alien spacecraft though. I seriously doubt 10% of of the American population claims to has seen alien spacecraft. Have a link to this info?

I do, however, doubt that extraterritorial lifeforms have visited our planet and our government is involved in a conspiracy to hide this from us.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Whether true or not...this means you're surrounded by crackpots. Or perhaps, *you're* the crackpot. I mean, if you're going to label what you thought was a minority group of people "crackpots", and you suddenly realized that you're actually part of the minority group that decided to keep the blinders on, then by your very standards, you are the crackpot.

I'm an atheist, so I'm used to being surrounded by millions of people I consider crackpots. Numbers of believers does not validate a claim. I'd still like to see the source where you're pulling percentages from.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

It's ok though. I don't label people crackpots. You're not a crackpot. It's ok to not believe there is life out there, observing us right now...or not believe that impending doom could be near...or believe that Bill Nye is an awesome guy.

What's your beef with Bill Nye?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Lava Lamp Freak 

I do not doubt the existence of life outside of this small planet. Also I see UFOs all of the time. I've never seen an alien spacecraft though. I seriously doubt 10% of of the American population claims to has seen alien spacecraft. Have a link to this info?

I do, however, doubt that extraterritorial lifeforms have visited our planet and our government is involved in a conspiracy to hide this from us.

Here's your initiation: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iRaag7...eature=related

Stanton Friedman is probably the most respected ufologist out there. This show is long, plan at least 3 hours to listen to this.

edit: if I may, I just want to add this...the internet and especially YouTube has made it incredibly easier to get information about all this. Of course, it has also made it easier for hoaxes to be posted also. However, before YouTube, getting this information was near impossible. This stuff would air on TV on a specific channel once (if it even got air time at all) and that would be the end of it. Whether this was because a decade or more ago people were perhaps a bit less open to the idea because of fear of being ridiculed or whether the governments were putting pressure on the media to not approach this subject seriously but rather make a mockery out of it, doesn't really matter at this point. On the internet, people don't near to fear ridicule by people like yourself anymore because, hey, I'm Horsepoo!!!: you don't know what my real name is, you don't know what I do in life, my reputation can't be harmed anyway so who cares. Sure, this leads to real "crackpots" being able to maximize their craziness, but it also allows honest, level-headed people much more freedom of speech and it definitely allows people to actually learn about what was once a very difficult information to obtain (outside specialized interest groups).

As Freidman says near the beginning of the video, you can't dismiss what you can't explain as impossible. He gives the following example: the sun is essentially a gigantic fusion reactor, science only started understanding how the sun worked in the early 20th century...does that mean the sun didn't work before the 20th century? Because science couldn't explain how it was producing its energy?

Just because science can't explain certain things, or just because information is being withheld, it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work or doesn't exist.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

respected ufologist

Now there's an oxymoron for you

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Now there's an oxymoron for you

I know it may seem funny to some skeptics. There are many ufologists that aren't careful in sorting the real stuff from the bullshit. It's hard to get respect when you work in such a young field (UFO, or even IT) because the field hasn't reached a mature stage. They're not as controlled as something like, say, medecine, a field that has been around since forever. And even then, you get quacks every once in again. So it's understandable if there are some (many even) ufologists that are less respected than others.

[Lava Lamp Freak]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Here's your initiation: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iRaag7...eature=related

Stanton Friedman is probably the most respected ufologist out there. This show is long, plan at least 3 hours to listen to this.

Lord of the crackpots... ok, I'll check it out.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

As Freidman says near the beginning of the video, you can't dismiss what you can't explain as impossible.

I don't just dismiss it just because I can't explain it. I've not seen any evidence that proves any of the cases you are presenting. In this one thread you have presented not just one, but numerous conspiracy theories. Some of the UFO conspiracies are contradictory. Which one is the truth? Are the Greys/Zetas the real ones, or is it the Elohim/Raëlians? Or are there multiple species in contact with people on earth? If so, why did the Zetas contact Nancy Lieder and warn her of Planet X and doomsday, but when the Elohim contacted Claude Vorilhon they made no such predictions of impending doom?

Why is it that all of the people who are "enlightened" to this conspiracy, or have been abducted or had some type of encounter with an alien, are fruitcakes?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eaxFZkaZl_k

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Lava Lamp Freak 

Lord of the crackpots... ok, I'll check it out.



I don't just dismiss it just because I can't explain it. I've not seen any evidence that proves any of the cases you are presenting. In this one thread you have presented not just one, but numerous conspiracy theories. Some of the UFO conspiracies are contradictory. Which one is the truth? Are the Greys/Zetas the real ones, or is it the Elohim/Raëlians? Or are there multiple species in contact with people on earth? If so, why did the Zetas contact Nancy Lieder and warn her of Planet X and doomsday, but when the Elohim contacted Claude Vorilhon they made no such predictions of impending doom?

Why is it that all of the people who are "enlightened" to this conspiracy, or have been abducted or had some type of encounter with an alien, are fruitcakes?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eaxFZkaZl_k

You know...these types of people are condescending, much like you. I don't think you're a crackpot (after all, you're allowed to have your own view about the subject and your view is what I consider a safe and conservative view of the world by trying to ignore the unexplained until it is explained thoroughly) but I do think you're very condescending towards people that don't share your narrow view of the world.

Right now, you're saying that all abductees are crackpots or fruitcakes. Most of these people did not believe in conspiracies or aliens before it happened. Sure, there are pranksters out there that, like you, think this whole thing is a funny joke and are out to have some fun. Its human nature after all: if you don't understand it, make fun of it. It's a natural defense mechanism that allows you to feel better for not knowing what you're dealing with.

There are thousands upon thousands of recorded abductees. I know you think that every single one of them is some big joke (no less from seemingly talented actors that have never had an interest in acting and simple folk that have never heard of or cared for UFO or extra-terrestrial life). All of them are a joke. They're all crackpot fruitcakes and you're one of about 5 people on this world still with a head on his shoulders. You're part of an elite few that somehow knows that the Earth isn't being visited because, hey, you've never seen a UFO and you've never been abducted. Conclusion: not visited by ET.

Congratulations.

This thead was so entice people into discussing about the black square in Google Sky...I offered Nibiru/Planet X as a possibility of objects behind the black square because it's a subject that is shrouded in mystery and certain people believed (before Google Sky even existed) that first signs of Planet X would be seen in the Orion area of the sky.

I don't have any solid reasoning and that's why I started a thread about it, to hear opinions about Google Sky's censored part of the sky and Nibiru. I obviously know some MacNN members' opinion on Nibiru and 2012: it's a bunch of baloney. Ok good. It probably is. Hardly anyone (save a few) actually were interested in the black square. I feel like I should have just talked about the black square and leave it at that...no theories as to why it's blacked out. Of course, I'm thinking the thread would have garnered a post or two and then get pushed off to the 2nd page...so I still think I did good for posting something that is controversial.

[- - e r i k - -]

Seriously Horsepoo, you seem to be well on your way to developing your own skepticism. Maybe you should have a look at Occam's Razor and look for the more simpler explanations to things. In this case, why would there be a conspiracy in Google Sky? Could there simply be missing data? A stitching mishap? Things like these happen in Google Earth, where we have far easier stitching and more corroborative data.

Don't look for the more fanciful explanations to things simply because they are more interesting. There are plenty of interesting factual things to take interest in

[Horsepoo!!!]

Another thing, Lava Lamp Freak:

You seem to trust your government to a huge degree. A lot of people do. What good is a government if it hides things from you, right?

I don't know if, as a child, you were faced with a situation of disinformation/trust with your parents. I know that parents of christian families (even those that don't practice) that celebrate Christmas find it fun to make their children believe in Santa Clause. As the kid gets older though, other kids around him start to have different views and opinions about Santa Clause. Some kids at school will say he doesn't exist, it was simply a story told by parents to make the Christmas experience seem more magical or exciting. Others kids at school are unsure. And others still firmly believe Santa Clause exists because their parents say so...and parents NEVER LIE. It's demoralizing as a child to learn that parents do in fact lie.

Sometimes for the child's own good...sometimes not. Parents are not perfect.

Well...putting your entire trust in your government is the exact same thing assume that the government is perfect and would NEVER LIE.

You might tell me this example is bad: in one situation the parent is feeding you a make-belief tale about some man in a velvety red suit with puffy white trimmings and in the other situation the government is *not* feeding you nonsense about little green/grey/whatever men...obviously they're telling the truth because they're not feeding you these 'wild stories'. Wild but true stories don't exist afterall, right? All stories must be sober and almost boring for them to be true.

Well you're wrong.

The world is a group of parents. And in the last decade, other parents have told their children that Santa doesn't exist. One of the very few parents on the block that is tells its children that Santa exists is the US government.

If you're American and very patriotic and apply your very narrow-minded view of the relatively unknown (which you make clear in this thread) then, perhaps the other governments are crackpot/fruitcakes/dumbasses and the US government is the only parent that still has half a brain.

Other governments have declassified a lot of information on UFOs. Just because you didn't know that, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

You can put your fingers in your ear and start humming loudly as much as you want. It doesn't really matter, it's not going to invalidate the information that has been disclosed.

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

There are thousands upon thousands of recorded abductees. I know you think that every single one of them is some big joke (no less from seemingly talented actors that have never had an interest in acting and simple folk that have never heard of or cared for UFO or extra-terrestrial life).

Does this very fact not undermine your case. If thousands upon thousansa of people HAD been abducted then the chances are that there would be much much more (i.e. at least some) physical evidence. That there is not would perhaps suggest other explainations

many "abductees" could indeed be crackpots - look at reality TV to see just what "normal" people will subject themselves to in order to become noticed. Factor in people with real mental illnesses and the fact that human beings are actually suggestible to an amazing degree and I would bet that you have 99% of all abductions covered. The remaining 1% would be safe to assign to unknown (as in unknown NOT actual UFO's)

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

UFOs are not proof of extraterrestrial life — they're just proof of a person's inability to identify a flying object. I have a standing offer from my uncle in the Air Force to help me see some UFOs next time I visit.

Not saying that UFOs are proof of extra-terrestrial life. You, on the other hand, have made the mistake by saying that UFOs are proof of a person's inability to identify a flying object. UFOs are not proof of a person's inability to identify a flying object.

By saying so, you're saying that extra-terrestrial spacecrafts cannot be a possibility and that UFOs are simply the product of dumbshit observers that can't interpret what they're seeing (even trained fighter pilots...the whole Air Farce including your uncle should be grounded forever because they obviously can't tell what they're looking at and might launch a missile at unrecognizable targets.)

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Debunked with a whole lot of new bunk.

That's not bunk: that's known as "physics". Perhaps you problem is more elementary.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

Does this very fact not undermine your case. If thousands upon thousansa of people HAD been abducted then the chances are that there would be much much more (i.e. at least some) physical evidence. That there is not would perhaps suggest other explainations

There is evidence...many choose to dismiss it.

People have a funny way of ignoring the evidence that doesn't make sense to them and accepting the evidence that corroborates with their view. It's human nature.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

That's not bunk: that's known as "physics". Perhaps you problem is more elementary.

Yeah it's macro physics...a science that is still very much in its infancy. I mean, how many people can verify all the theories that have been put forth with regards to the universe. No one. It's all mathematical and theoretical. There's absolute tons of scientists that have been wrong in the past...their theories didn't line up with the observation.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Yeah it's macro physics...a science that is still very much in its infancy. I mean, how many people can verify all the theories that have been put forth with regards to the universe. No one. It's all mathematical and theoretical. There's absolute tons of scientists that have been wrong in the past...their theories didn't line up with the observation.

Dude, seriously: what? None of that physics is in its "infancy". It's Newtonian and Einsteinian, both of which have been proved over and over and over again. If you don't believe me, look he data up and do that math yourself. You might as well claim that gravity hasn't been proven.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Seriously Horsepoo, you seem to be well on your way to developing your own skepticism. Maybe you should have a look at Occam's Razor and look for the more simpler explanations to things. In this case, why would there be a conspiracy in Google Sky? Could there simply be missing data? A stitching mishap? Things like these happen in Google Earth, where we have far easier stitching and more corroborative data.

Don't look for the more fanciful explanations to things simply because they are more interesting. There are plenty of interesting factual things to take interest in

This black square has been there for pretty much a year according to some people. You'd think Google would have responded to people during the last year...something like "yeah, stitching (or Sitchin problem )...we'll correct it in the coming days/weeks/months"...or "yeah, missing data, we're working on getting that last square of data for you".

A year!

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Dude, seriously: what? None of that physics is in its "infancy". It's Newtonian and Einsteinian, both of which have been proved over and over and over again. If you don't believe me, look he data up and do that math yourself. You might as well claim that gravity hasn't been proven.

How little you know. I almost feel sad for you.

edit: if you're really interested in this, open a new thread on that subject and I'll participate.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

How little you know. I almost feel sad for you.

How little I know?

Show me one place where Relativity hasn't been proven. And not from a UFO magazine or a conspiracy theory website. Show me the math.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

How little I know?

Show me one place where Relativity hasn't been proven. And not from a UFO magazine or a conspiracy theory website. Show me the math.

NASA can do no harm right? http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...s/980327b.html

But then: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../406243a0.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-of-light.html

General relativity hasn't been proven. It can be close to the truth...but it might not be the total truth. Like I said, many scientists have been wrong before. In the light of new data, some theories crumble completely.

A lot of these new theories and discoveries don't make it into education systems because they're recent discoveries and almost no information is available about them since very few scientists have had the chance to dabble with them. But just because you've been taught something is school, doesn't mean that it's absolutely accurate. It's understandable that most people aren't aware of these new scientific ideas. Of course...today, it's less excusable...with the internet and all.

People aren't limited to local newspapers, or national TV anymore...they can their info from anywhere in the world.

Of course, faster than light speed photons is crackpotedness and fruitcakedness at its best. Einstein can't be wrong. He was a genius after all...just like some of you.

edit: like I said, start a new thread...this thread is already way off course.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

General relativity hasn't been proven.

100% wrong: General relativity has been proven correct in every experimental case. The fact you cited an article as "proof" which proves nothing only underlines this, as the article clearly states:

. . .and that no actual information, or signal, is transmitted faster than c.

This seems to confuse you, which tells me all I need to know.

It can be close to the truth...but it might not be the total truth. Like I said, many scientists have been wrong before. In the light of new data, some theories crumble completely.

Which means nothing and shows me you don't understand, at all, what you're talking about. New theories do not cause older ones to "crumble": the older theories are still valid and merely become extended by the newer theories. Relativity does not mean Newtonian physics is invalid. It means that Newtonian physics doesn't work when dealing with enormous mass or speeds near c. Quantum mechanics doesn't mean all the basic chemistry you learned in high school doesn't work, only that it needs to be extended at the subatomic level.

It's understandable that most people aren't aware of these new scientific ideas. Of...today, it's less excusable...with the internet and all.

There's a difference between new scientific ideas and idle speculation, and you seem to be conflating the two. Go read up on orbital mechanics and you can do the math yourself: any object that massive, that close, would be easily visible with the naked eye. Go read up on Einstein's field equations and do the math yourself. You might actually learn something.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

100% wrong: General relativity has been proven correct in every experimental case. The fact you cited an article as "proof" which proves nothing only underlines this, as the article clearly states:

. . .and that no actual information, or signal, is transmitted faster than c.

This seems to confuse you, which tells me all I need to know.



Which means nothing and shows me you don't understand, at all, what you're talking about. New theories do not cause older ones to "crumble": the older theories are still valid and merely become extended by the newer theories. Relativity does not mean Newtonian physics is invalid. It means that Newtonian physics doesn't work when dealing with enormous mass or speeds near c. Quantum mechanics doesn't mean all the basic chemistry you learned in high school doesn't work, only that it needs to be extended at the subatomic level.



There's a difference between new scientific ideas and idle speculation, and you seem to be conflating the two. Go read up on orbital mechanics and you can do the math yourself: any object that massive, that close, would be easily visible with the naked eye. Go read up on Einstein's field equations and do the math yourself. You might actually learn something.

Don...open your eyes. You are on the internet. Why do I have to hold your hand?

http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2544
http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoes...nelingftl.html

There is tons of this information available on this. ****, man. Do you own research...just because you don't want to hear about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Now gtfo of here, you're embarrassing yourself.

A simple Wiki search for "faster than light" will provide you with more examples of observed data. If you believe in science, you must believe in this or you're being selective in what you believe (which is fine...it's ok to be skeptical but you can't outright deny this stuff like you're doing now).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Don...open your eyes. You are on the internet. Why do I have to hold your hand?

http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2544

There is tons of this information available on this. ****, man. Do you own research...just because you don't want to hear about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Now gtfo of here, you're embarrassing yourself.

1. Please calm down.

2. That article says the same thing Don said: This does not violate general relativity, nor does any other known experiment.

"Einstein said information can't travel faster than light, and in this case, as with all fast-light experiments, no information is truly moving faster than light," says Boyd.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

1. Please calm down.

It's interesting how subjects like this enflame emotion when called into question.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

1. Please calm down.

2. That article says the same thing Don said: This does not violate general relativity, nor does any other known experiment.

But it offers a different perspective...it's an article I picked as an initiation for Don so that his head doesn't blow up when he realizes that what he may have be taught was wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light Check out the external links.

Are you telling me to calm down as a projection of your own feeling? I think you're probably freaking out in the light of this new information. I'm actually very calm right now. Just because I used the word **** and told he to get out of here, doesn't mean I'm on the edge of my seat.

If Enstein's general relativity was proven, I'd say scientists are dumb 'tards for trying to disprove Enstein's theory. I mean, it's proven, right? Why the **** are they doing more research on this subject?

[Lava Lamp Freak]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

You know...these types of people are condescending, much like you. I don't think you're a crackpot (after all, you're allowed to have your own view about the subject and your view is what I consider a safe and conservative view of the world by trying to ignore the unexplained until it is explained thoroughly) but I do think you're very condescending towards people that don't share your narrow view of the world.

Again, you are putting yourself in a position of authority by thinking you are in the majority. Please supply the source of your percentages. I do not doubt there are a lot of people who believe in ET across the world, but I seriously doubt that the majority of people buy into the government conspiracies.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Right now, you're saying that all abductees are crackpots or fruitcakes. Most of these people did not believe in conspiracies or aliens before it happened. Sure, there are pranksters out there that, like you, think this whole thing is a funny joke and are out to have some fun. Its human nature after all: if you don't understand it, make fun of it. It's a natural defense mechanism that allows you to feel better for not knowing what you're dealing with.

I do not believe they are all actors or pranksters. I believe most of them really believe something happened to them. Also, most abductees don't even recall what happened to them until after regression therapy. That makes all of the alleged encounters questionable.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

There are thousands upon thousands of recorded abductees. I know you think that every single one of them is some big joke (no less from seemingly talented actors that have never had an interest in acting and simple folk that have never heard of or cared for UFO or extra-terrestrial life). All of them are a joke. They're all crackpot fruitcakes and you're one of about 5 people on this world still with a head on his shoulders. You're part of an elite few that somehow knows that the Earth isn't being visited because, hey, you've never seen a UFO and you've never been abducted. Conclusion: not visited by ET.

If you think thousands, or even millions of people claiming to be abducted proves something, then obviously every superstition across the world and time is true. I live in awe of the things many people around me believe without questioning them. Again, I do not believe that sheer numbers of believers validates something just because I don't understand it. I still think you're skewing the numbers in your favor, though.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

You seem to trust your government to a huge degree. A lot of people do. What good is a government if it hides things from you, right?

No, I do not place a large amount of trust in my government. I do not agree with the war in Iraq and don't believe much of anything as of late that comes out of W's mouth. I do place more trust in the government, though, than I do in the people who claim to have ET babies or that the Bush family is really reptilian aliens.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Other governments have declassified a lot of information on UFOs. Just because you didn't know that, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

You can put your fingers in your ear and start humming loudly as much as you want. It doesn't really matter, it's not going to invalidate the information that has been disclosed.

I really do wish our government would declassify the information regarding things like Roswell, and maybe even shed some light on things like the Phoenix lights, a phenomena which occurred again this year. Perhaps the government is all that is standing in the way of putting these conspiracies to rest. Perhaps something more pressing is part of their plan, though, like homeland security?

What types of information has been declassified by other world governments?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Lava Lamp Freak 

What types of information has been declassified by other world governments?

Civilian and military near encounters and their thoughts: you can start here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/default.htm .

Frankly, I don't know why some of you are ignoring, for example, pilot testimonies. Like I said, these guys *must* be trained observers of the sky. I wouldn't trust them if they weren't. Sure, they can make mistakes, but when they've got visual and radar contact and towers have radar contact, what else can you ask for?

Are these nutty pilots? The kinds that you trust in the sky to protect the skies? Was Carter a dumb ass? Was Reagan's short "extra-terrestrial alient threat" speeches just complete bullshit or misinterpreted (who knows, maybe it was...or maybe he was trying to warn the public without outright saying that there are without a doubt alien visitors eyeing us)? Was Eisenhower's "parallel government"/"black budget" insinuations just some funny joke?

If so the US has some serious problems putting the security of the country into the hands of fighter pilots that can't understand what they're looking at. Presidents that occasionally go into Lala Land in public.

Humans can make those mistakes or act stupidly...but governmental entities can't. They're flawless...even though they are run by human beings.

If you discredit trained professional testimonies...then how the **** does the court of law accept testimonies from dumbass untrained observer eye witnesses when a man's life is on the line?

I'm not saying observers don't make mistakes. They do. But when combined with other observer's testimonies that match closely, the credibility becomes greater as you're recreating a scene from different point of views. It's not going to be 100% accurate but it's going to be close.

When hundreds or thousands of people see a spacecraft over Phoenix. How can debunkers say with a straight face that all these people are retarded observers with terrible interpretation? They all saw a huge mile long craft with lights.

If this isn't an extra-terrestrial craft, then it's man-made but not from technology that we've ever heard about...so who built it? American top-secret agencies? If so then the US people are being lied to. Is it a russian craft? If so, the US is not doing a good job at protecting their skies...this craft has just violated US air space.

Either way, we're being lied to.

edit: forgot one other possibility...mass hoax. Lots of people in Phoenix are pranksters. One giant clown city.

How can old 50s and 60s photos of UFOs depict object with almost exactly the same shape (I'm not talking general shape of a saucer here...I'm talking the specific details of a saucer...again watch the Stanton Friedman video if you haven't, he brings that point up), pictures that were taken by different people from different places on the planet? Photoshop didn't exist back then, it was nearly impossible to fake a photo. We're these people from all over the world part of some networked hoax? Simple farmer type people that suddenly have interest in space travel and decide it would be a fun gag to get Joe, Sven, and Hans to fake a flying saucer sighting?

Be realistic...I'll use erik's Occam Razor's defense and say that it definitely wasn't an elaborate hoax and most likely the real thing. Not saying that it's ET, it could be man-made. By whom? Who knows...and we still don't know...someone's been keeping this technology secret for over 60 years? Maybe. Who?

It's absolutely naive to believe that we're not being lied to. Whether these UFOs are of ET origins or of terrestrial origins is another story...the evidence is overwhelming in favor that some of these UFOs are indeed of ET origins. But not everyone thinks of evidence the same way. Naysayers will say there is no evidence because fighter pilots are kooks, presidents are dumbasses (who's the dumbass though, the president or the person who voted for him/her), thousands of people that witness the same event are the subject of mass hallucinations or mass retardnedness when it comes to interpreting what they saw.

A lot of people here are of the "didn't see, didn't happen/exist" breed. Wrong! And if you saw it, I bet other people would tell you you're off your rocker and your eyes fooled you. Eyes can fool people...yes...but if eyes fooled people all the time, we'd be walking in walls, tripping over things, trying to get into the wrong car all the time,

And if these witnesses only had eyes, perhaps they would make a lot of mistakes, but they also have ears. These crafts are always being described as silent (there are very very few cases of people reporting them as being noisy), so you have visual data and auditory data (silence is considered data just like 0 is considered data). Ears and eyes fooling people. That's great. We're just a bunch of mole rats...blind, deaf and stupid.

And if you consider the Phoenix sightings to be true...how many of these high quality sightings will it take for this phenomenon to be real? Where's the line?

One day, an extra-terrestrial may be knocking on your door and you still will deny it. Your eyes, ears and fingers will be sending false information to your brain. You haven't been trained to see these ET beings so you'll be misinterpreting what you see.

[Andrew Stephens]

General and special relativity, quantum physics and even Newtonian physics are all well documented theories with mountains of hard physical data behind them. As has been mentioned before new data does not invalidate any of these theories just extends the "story" by which we understand the real physical world.

This is rather different from postulating new and unproven theories from limited or no data.

You can always say that absence of proof is not proof of absence but continued abscense of proof where proof should be is a good indicator that a theory is cock eyed!

Is it a general populist trend to say that all viewpoints have equal value? Probably. Do they? No.

[olePigeon]

There are two possibilities for the Google Space missing that part: 1.) they're simply just missing the image that belongs there, or, 2.) a U.S. spy satellite is in geosynchronous orbit in that area and it's forbidden to take pictures of that area.

In any event, it's not Planet X. Duck Dodgers of the 21st 1/2 Century would have warned us.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

But it offers a different perspective...it's an article I picked as an initiation for Don so that his head doesn't blow up when he realizes that what he may have be taught was wrong.

By…posting a link that agrees with what he's been saying? I don't think that will do much to help him realize he's wrong.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Are you telling me to calm down as a projection of your own feeling? I think you're probably freaking out in the light of this new information. I'm actually very calm right now. Just because I used the word **** and told he to get out of here, doesn't mean I'm on the edge of my seat.

I don't care whether you're on the edge of your seat. I do care if you're acting out of line. Please rein yourself in and act as calm as you are apparently feeling.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

...so who built it? American top-secret agencies? If so then the US people are being lied to.

I hope this doesn't come as a surprise, but the military/government doesn't always share it's secrets with us when it comes to technology. And there are good reasons for that.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

By…posting a link that agrees with what he's been saying? I don't think that will do much to help him realize he's wrong.

No but it might help him understand that the whole truth isn't always told in a theory. Had I got with the articles that do show photons traveling faster than the speed of light, he'd be going bonkers.

And still, other links explain how signals can travel faster than the speed of light...something Einstein did not believe. In that particular article, Boyd does not think information could travel faster than the speed of light.

edit: heh, again, someone should open a new thread on this...this thread isn't about science advancements

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by design219 

I hope this doesn't come as a surprise, but the military/government doesn't always share it's secrets with us when it comes to technology. And there are good reasons for that.

You seem quite comfortable with that idea. Well if it's a secret why doesn't the government tell it like it is. They never say it's a secret, they outright *deny* having such technology and even invent nonsensical excuses. Denial isn't the same thing as saying it's top secret.

"Saucers or spacecrafts aren't saucers or spacecrafts, they're just our planes or weather balloons or maybe you're just dumb."

"So you guys have mile-long flying saucers now?"

"No. Planes and weather balloons."

"Ooookay!"

edit: after reading the Religulous thread, it made me remember something that some UFO disclosure advocates often say is a huge barrier. A lot of people in this world still believe in some sort of immaterial god. I don't want to get into a discussion about religion because it's a very touchy subject...but some disclosure advocates think that one reason it's not being done is because people that believe in a god or gods would go apeshit. I'm not talking just believing there is life...but knowing without a shadow of a doubt that intelligent ET life exists and is watching us. Some views on religion would be shattered overnight. Sure, some would still believe in some sort of immaterial god despite the idea that we're coexisting with other intelligent life...to them that idea comforts them and helps them get through hard times or offers a way to blame something that can't be seen or touched when **** hits the fan. Others would suddenly make a link that perhaps god or gods were actually these beings that have meddled with people in the past (often depicted as angels or flying beings in many religions).

While some disclosure advocates think we're all ready for the US to disclose its UFO info to the world, the ones that say people will go crazy are probably right.

I know most of you haven't even bothered with the Stanton Friedman video I linked to. I understand. People that simply don't want to hear about it aren't going to spend 3 hours watching something that doesn't fit their point of view. But he does say this:

Huge universe, galaxy full of solar systems, many solar systems with a sun similar to the our solar system, many of those systems with planets. Some of these systems are a billion years older than our solar system. If there is ET life out there, it's entirely possible that they have had anywhere between a year to a billion year head start on us.

If you've looked at how much we've progressed in the past 100 years compared to the last 3000 years, imagine how much more advanced a civilization that has had even a 5000 year head start would be. Imagine 1 million.

We're frickin' cavemen. We're kids with matches. We're still engaged in religious enlightenment (something which, IMO, is much crazier than acknowledging that ETs might be visiting and observing us) and fighting other people over which religion is "the true way"?

I bet if the ETs weren't so wise and advanced, they'd probably be laughing their asses off right now watching the planet as though it's a Game of Life simulator.

Perhaps the stories I find the most interesting are the ones of nuclear missile silos being shut down by UFOs. Perhaps, like a good parent, these ETs are letting us play and letting us getting hurt on a smaller scale but when we start handling nuclear devices they're telling us "nuh uh, you can't use that". It wasn't until the late 1940s that sightings really began (perhaps they existed before on the same frequency, or perhaps Roswell made everyone turn nutso paranoids.) It does seem to me like ETs become more concerned when A-bombs were tested and dropped on Japan and are becoming increasingly curious/worried that we're destroying ourselves and perhaps would take this attitude into space. They probably don't fear that we'd be successful at conquering space with our primitive spaceships and weapons compared to their knowledge of the universe but wouldn't like the idea of a renegade race of clumsy cavemen floating into their territory and causing a ruckus.

[voodoo]

This stupid and incredibly self-centric whining in some people about the end of the world just never gets old does it?

Always ALWAYS there is some group of people trying to convince the rest of us that now, finally within our lifetimes, the end of the world is here.

Forgetting how incredibly egotistic it is to buy into that sort of crap, has any one of you people who think the world is going to go pop in 2012 realized that it doesn't matter.

You'll die eventually anyway. Get over it.

[turtle777]

2012 is actually not a good year for me. I'm planning some important things, and I'm already all booked out.

Is there a petition that I can sign to have this postponed until, uhm, say 2050 ?

-t