[reader50]

Originally Posted by subego 

That would require rockets in Naomi’s face, no?

It would allow inertia to silently finish the delivery near Naomi's face. She snaps the ends together before excess tether can slowly pile up. Then tensioning the completed tether from both sides prevents the slow pileup.

[subego]

Originally Posted by reader50 

It would allow inertia to silently finish the delivery near Naomi's face. She snaps the ends together before excess tether can slowly pile up. Then tensioning the completed tether from both sides prevents the slow pileup.

I’m trying to make sense of “[m]y guess is the winch side didn't brake it to the final stop”.

If the winch side isn’t causing the braking, the only other option is the drone firing its rockets.

[reader50]

The winch side on the Belter ship, brakes it to millimeters per second, instead of to zero. How did you jump from "not braking to a final stop" over to "not braking at all"?

"not braking to a final stop" = a California stop, if that helps.

[subego]

I didn’t.

What’s causing the final stop? Naomi?

[subego]

Ah! Edit explains it! I thought you meant stop-stop.

[subego]

Now that I understand, I’ll reiterate my point. I posit putting the drone in a precise location (such as right up in Naomi’s grille) with negligible velocity using only the winch is a non-trivial proposition. The winch won’t have the precision to taper off the drone’s velocity without overshoot or rebound. It’ll probably overshoot and rebound.

In contrast, the drone is at the end of a leash. The drone can trivially position itself on an arc with the radius of the tether by pulling on it.

[reader50]

Pulling on it = almost guaranteed rebound. Also, this leash masses tons. That's a lot of inertia to play with.

Allowing it to reach Naomi with negligible speed is possible, braking at the winch, with minor tugs and course corrections by the drone. Even if it's difficult, they have AI so advanced it put 90%+ of Earth's population out of work, necessitating Basic assistance. Advanced enough that everyone hates AI, and AIs have been programmed to not speak. To only obey, and provide extra info via displays.

I believe the scene shows the tether sequence in a way that can work, and doesn't violate physics. Technically, our discussion should move to a science lab experiment, using an air track, with string for the tether. Sadly, I do not have that equipment on hand. If you wanted to test it for real, eBay does have a couple. The track lengths look short though - a long track would be desirable for this kind of experiment. 1 2

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Now that I understand, I’ll reiterate my point. I posit putting the drone in a precise location (such as right up in Naomi’s grille) with negligible velocity using only the winch is a non-trivial proposition.

Non-trivial in what sense? The problem is very similar to e. g. connecting a tug boat to a huge container cargo ship or connecting two large ships of similar size. If you have to moor a big container ship, then you use several winches. This seems highly non-trivial, but it isn’t science fiction. In space you don’t have to contend with tides, wind, water currents from passing vessels, etc.

Originally Posted by subego 

The winch won’t have the precision to taper off the drone’s velocity without overshoot or rebound. It’ll probably overshoot and rebound.

Why? It seems way easier than mooring a ship on the ocean.

Originally Posted by subego 

In contrast, the drone is at the end of a leash. The drone can trivially position itself on an arc with the radius of the tether by pulling on it.

Yes, but you then have a rotating drone with a huge cable (conservation of angular momentum). Once the cable has a velocity component perpendicular to the direction of the cable, the drone would have to stop that, too.

Originally Posted by reader50 

Allowing it to reach Naomi with negligible speed is possible, braking at the winch, with minor tugs and course corrections by the drone. Even if it's difficult, they have AI so advanced it put 90%+ of Earth's population out of work, necessitating Basic assistance. Advanced enough that everyone hates AI, and AIs have been programmed to not speak. To only obey, and provide extra info via displays.

Surely, AI would help, but I am not even convinced you need AI for that. All of these people grew up in space, on ships and space stations. I assume mooring vessels is second nature to them, and it looks easy enough a task to even do by hand. Perhaps it is easier with AI, but I don’t think AI is necessary.

Originally Posted by reader50 

I believe the scene shows the tether sequence in a way that can work, and doesn't violate physics. Technically, our discussion should move to a science lab experiment, using an air track, with string for the tether.

That’s exactly the experiment I was thinking of!

[subego]

Originally Posted by reader50 

braking at the winch, with minor tugs and course corrections by the drone.

I posit a significant portion of these minor tugs and course corrections would occur during braking, which we didn’t see (and didn’t hear).

Again, what I’m challenging is the winch being the sole means by which braking was achieved.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Non-trivial in what sense? The problem is very similar to e. g. connecting a tug boat to a huge container cargo ship or connecting two large ships of similar size. If you have to moor a big container ship, then you use several winches. This seems highly non-trivial, but it isn’t science fiction. In space you don’t have to contend with tides, wind, water currents from passing vessels, etc.

I didn’t watch the video, but is there a part where a winch brakes a tugboat with no rebound, and the tugboat isn’t using its engine?

That’s the scenario in the show. The winch brings the drone to a perfect halt with no visible rebound, all while the drone’s thrusters are off.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

I didn’t watch the video, but is there a part where a winch brakes a tugboat with no rebound, and the tugboat isn’t using its engine?

The video was mostly about mooring, i. e. there were several cables attached to winches the boat and the other end attached to the dock, no tug involved. They explained how difficult it is, because e. g. the boat is subjected to waves, winds, currents and eddies, etc. It certainly looked more complicated than having to deal with a single cable and a single winch in space where the biggest difficulty is to brake the cable.

After seeing the video, that seems like a piece of cake.

[reader50]

I too think it would be easy. The drone would periodically thrust during most of the trip, keeping the cable playing out. It would make small course corrections too. But they'd gently brake it by hand, using a video feed from the Roci for feedback. subego thinks it would be unduly complicated, even for AI. As the Expanse people have AI coming out the wazoo, it's still covered.

Either way, we've established they can do it as shown in the episode. I'm losing track of why we're arguing - it's feeling like a hydrazine commercial. Gotta think of a reason to burn more in the drone, so we can sell more.

[subego]

The main reason I’m still arguing is because the actual hard part isn’t being addressed, which is eliminating visible rebound solely using the winch.

I’m not saying it breaks the laws of physics, I’m saying it makes no sense to do it that way, even with an AI, because the drone can use thrusters to compensate for the rebound.

[subego]

When you asked the AI to calculate the precise winch breaking involved to insure zero rebound, it would say “the intelligent solution is for me not to calculate this and instead use the thrusters on the drone.”

“Especially with that piece of shit Belter winch.”





“Don’t make me open the pod bay doors on you.”

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

The main reason I’m still arguing is because the actual hard part isn’t being addressed, which is eliminating visible rebound solely using the winch.

I guess I don't understand why you think it is hard. I never gave it a second thought when I watched the episode the first time, and even after our discussion here, I still don't see any reason why this is hard. Like I wrote above, it seems much easier than mooring an ocean liner, and the latter is done on a daily basis without AI.

Maybe we can close this chapter and go to the next episode?

[subego]

Well, my dad’s lost the thread a bit, and reader hasn’t seen S5, so even if the subject changes, talk about older stuff is still not a bad idea.

[OreoCookie]

We could use spoiler tags.

[subego]

Of course!

I’m just saying we also like old stuff because we like the company.

[Waragainstsleep]

I heard a rumour the show can get picked up by another network if Amazon doesn't pick it up in the next 12 months. And WB/HBO might want to make 5 more seasons.

[subego]

My dad will be thrilled.

[reader50]

So he resumed watching?

Regarding the series continuing, it is based on 9 books. Each TV season is roughly based on a book (S1 - S3 had erratic mapping). So there are 3 books of story material left for potential future seasons. I haven't heard anything though about continued production.

[subego]

We watched one episode the day before yesterday.

He started to lose steam in S4, and I’d say now he’s only in it to have it done. I mean, he doesn’t hate it or anything, but he’s lost any eagerness he once had.

Personally, I want five seasons of the spin-off Amos.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Personally, I want five seasons of the spin-off Amos.

If you love Amos, you will love season 5: part of season 5 is about his backstory. Episode 1 starts with a few iconic one liners. Episode 2 is also great, he’s meeting his favorite stripper (you’ll get the reference once you see it).

[subego]

I… don’t love season 5, unfortunately.

I do like the Amos parts.

 

I’m at the point where Amos and “Peaches” escape from the Pit.

My dad’s biggest issue is they “broke up the band”, and I can’t say I like that either. I’m especially not interested in Naomi’s storyline, even though the fate of the free universe hinges on it.

For me, the pacing of the season is very strange. It’ll be very slow, then suddenly a bunch of things happen at once.

Favorite part not including Amos? Belter Tachikoma!


Edit: I also miss Miller and Ashford. Two best actors on the show

[OreoCookie]

 

Yes, they broke up the bad, but it is an excellent way to explore the past of the characters. And they'll get together over time. Amos' time on earth is ingenious. His friendship with Timmy and the way he treats the partner of his, hmmm, foster mom is a nice touch.

I am surprised you didn't mention Amos' one liners/monologs. The monolog in the first episode when the Belter mobsters demand protection money is gold (“I hate waiting.”). As is his interaction with Chrissy (“Why can't you be both?”).

Naomi's storyline will become extremely dark and depressing. If my chairs at home had armrests, they'd have impressions of my fingernails. Some bits are literally breathtaking.

Ashford is being replaced by Drummer. In the last season she is my favorite character, and in Season 5 her character is built up. She will have the best speech of the series (at least in my mind). Even if you disagree, I think it is hard to argue that it isn't in the Top 5.

PS I didn't know you were a fellow Ghost in the Shell enthusiast!

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by reader50 

So he resumed watching?

Regarding the series continuing, it is based on 9 books. Each TV season is roughly based on a book (S1 - S3 had erratic mapping). So there are 3 books of story material left for potential future seasons. I haven't heard anything though about continued production.

Apparently there is a large gap in the timeline between end season 5 and the next book. They want to fill that in a bit.

[subego]

So, if HBO picks it up, I assume the gratuitous sex goes up to 11.

The science says watching that with your dad is awkward.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

 

Yes, they broke up the bad, but it is an excellent way to explore the past of the characters. And they'll get together over time. Amos' time on earth is ingenious. His friendship with Timmy and the way he treats the partner of his, hmmm, foster mom is a nice touch.

I am surprised you didn't mention Amos' one liners/monologs. The monolog in the first episode when the Belter mobsters demand protection money is gold (“I hate waiting.”). As is his interaction with Chrissy (“Why can't you be both?”).

Naomi's storyline will become extremely dark and depressing. If my chairs at home had armrests, they'd have impressions of my fingernails. Some bits are literally breathtaking.

Ashford is being replaced by Drummer. In the last season she is my favorite character, and in Season 5 her character is built up. She will have the best speech of the series (at least in my mind). Even if you disagree, I think it is hard to argue that it isn't in the Top 5.

PS I didn't know you were a fellow Ghost in the Shell enthusiast!

 

Oh… agree 100% S5 Amos is utterly brilliant.

I only stopped with Just Amos Things because the frequency of self-contained ones has dropped. He still gets fantastic lines, they just tend to require too much context to get the full impact.

That, and I take medication with the side-effect of decimating my (already poor) short-term memory. I’ll have a good candidate in front of me and 30 seconds later it’s flitted away.

I love Drummer, too.

Among her many highlights for me is in terms of seeming to come from a culture which has yet to exist, I find her by far the most believable.

Love GitS, though I still haven’t gotten around to watching SAC. I think I mentioned in one of the movie threads I’m plotting to get my dad to watch it. He’s got a block about anime, but past the visual style I’d say there’s a solid argument it’s been strongly steeped in Western sensibilities.

What actually concerns me more is even though the story is dead-ass simple, it’s presented in such an inscrutable manner he could get frustrated. I know I needed multiple viewings before I could factually say I understood what the fuck I just saw.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

 

Oh… agree 100% S5 Amos is utterly brilliant.

I only stopped with Just Amos Things because the frequency of self-contained ones has dropped. He still gets fantastic lines, they just tend to require too much context to get the full impact.

That, and I take medication with the side-effect of decimating my (already poor) short-term memory. I’ll have a good candidate in front of me and 30 seconds later it’s flitted away.

I love Drummer, too.

Among her many highlights for me is in terms of seeming to come from a culture which has yet to exist, I find her by far the most believable.

 

Yeah, I can see how it turns people off: you really need to pay attention. That holds for the epic space battles that are yet to come. IMHO they are unsurpassed in any sci fi series. Even things like the drive plume color of torpedos is done right. And in space battles it isn't technobabble, but how you shoot that could make all the difference. If you are having trouble understanding the battles, it is worth watching Youtube videos that take them apart scene by scene.

Regarding Drummer, I completely agree. I really love that you learn much more about Belter culture in the last two seasons. The only thing about the last season is that it feels rushed, because it was: they had to cut content to make things work moneywise. But you really need season 5 to prepare for season 6.

Originally Posted by subego 

Love GitS, though I still haven’t gotten around to watching SAC. I think I mentioned in one of the movie threads I’m plotting to get my dad to watch it. He’s got a block about anime, but past the visual style I’d say there’s a solid argument it’s been strongly steeped in Western sensibilities.

We have had our disagreements in the past, but this takes the cake, it isn't even close!

SAC seasons 1 and 2 are by far the best bits about GitS, and it isn't even close. Especially knowing what we know now, the main theme of season 1 has completely come to pass in reality. I don't want to spoiler anything. But I am gobsmacked how Shirow could have predicted that. However, the story is complex and needs time to unfold. Still, SAC Season 1 is by far the best animated series for adults.

Season 2 also hits home dead center, although to fully appreciate it, you need to know more about Japanese post-WW2 politics.

The first follow-up movie is also excellent, although it explores philosophy much more in depth.

Originally Posted by subego 

What actually concerns me more is even though the story is dead-ass simple, it’s presented in such an inscrutable manner he could get frustrated. I know I needed multiple viewings before I could factually say I understood what the fuck I just saw.

To really appreciate GitS and The Expanse, you have to — at least — partially rewatch the series. But it is entirely worth it. I'm on my third pass now. (Although I haven't watched the last two seasons three times.)

[subego]

What’s the disagreement?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

What’s the disagreement?

No, the fact you call yourself a GitS fan, but haven’t seen SAC yet!
(No worries, I tried to make a joke in good faith, not a very good one it seems. Please ignore!)

Seriously, watch SAC. We have it on Netflix in Japan.

[subego]

It was a good joke! I just didn’t get it at first!

[subego]

My dad said he’s not abandoning it, but he didn’t want to watch an episode tonight because he wasn’t up for something with that much blue in the color palette.

[subego]

It’s easier to do “Just Amos Things” if…

 

They put him in the goddamn episode.

[OreoCookie]

I got really lucky and ended up watching 1.5 episodes last night, including one of my favorite scenes of the whole series: the bit where the transport Amos is on lands on the Moon. Plus the “stripper” dialog between Amos and Chrisjen.

[subego]

“Can I go now?”

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

“Can I go now?”

Yeah, that was pretty good.