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Navy Yard shooting in D.C.; 13 dead so far (Page 4)
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I don't see how actually visiting Portland could make me rethink my position on disliking it.
This is asinine. Unless there's some ethereal quality to Portland that requires one to visit it, I would think you could convince someone by citing its historical significance, or its location, or its landmarks, its sports teams, local activities, etc., etc. Is that too much to ask for? Stated reasons?


Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Seems like willful ignorance. That's your choice, right, whatever. But why? You don't have to answer. "Because I don't feel like it" is sufficient.
Not knowing how to use a gun is willful ignorance? Wouldn't that apply to pretty much anything you can take a course on then?


Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Why does your average person need to know how to change a flat tire? You can certainly function just fine without this knowledge. That's what AAA is for.
I don't think the average person actually knows how to change a tire, though I don't think the ability is beyond them grasping in the heat of the moment. But that brings up a relevant point – aren't there a host of other skills more relevant than knowing how to use a gun?


Originally Posted by pooka View Post
I guess it would just be nice if you and others didn't feel bitterness or disdain for those that wish to retain some knowledge and/or proficiency with such archaic skills.
Where is my bitterness or disdain? It'd be nice if I could ask you guys to spell shit out for me without getting projected on.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 03:44 PM
 
@Dakar

What you can pretty much only learn from shooting is it's a ****ing gas.

What I'm saying is the people (probably not you) who fist-pump when they hear the line "imagine a world without handguns", don't regard shooting as highly entertaining.

The thing is, it's highly entertaining.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@Dakar

What you can pretty much only learn from shooting is it's a ****ing gas.

What I'm saying is the people (probably not you) who fist-pump when they hear the line "imagine a world without handguns", don't regard shooting as highly entertaining.

The thing is, it's highly entertaining.
C'mon subego, third times the charm
I missed it but what preconceived notions are negated by actually firing a gun?
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 03:52 PM
 
The preconceived notion is shooting isn't highly entertaining. It's only something a philistine would enjoy.

Why is this not an acceptable answer? Should I make something up which is other than what I intended?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The preconceived notion is shooting isn't highly entertaining.

Why is this not an acceptable answer? Should I make something up which is other than what I intended?
Oh, I didn't realize that was the answer. Mostly because we started form here:
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I also want to add, I have not met a single person who hasn't had some foul personal experience with guns, who doesn't enjoy the **** out of shooting them once they try it. I'm talking far lefty, gun-control, granola hippies from hell.

The response is always "wow, I never would have thought I'd have enjoyed that so much".
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't see how this has anything to do with wether or not we're better off without guns.
P.S. I would think that the notion of guns not being entertaining would be either the minority or hypocrisy. Action movies and online shooters are some of the biggest entertainment in the country, right? People don't want gun control because they don't think they're fun, they want gun control because they think they're dangerous.
     
shifuimam
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
In what situation would the average person need to know this?
In the event that you encounter a firearm, knowing how to safely disarm it is pretty important.

It's easy to learn and easy to do with most semi-automatic handguns. I'm not going to come up with a bunch of hypothetical situations.

To me, learning gun safety is as important as learning basic first aid and resuscitation. You probably won't be faced with having to handle a gun in your lifetime, but you probably won't ever have to give CPR to anyone, either. Doesn't mean you shouldn't know the basics of both, because in both situations if you don't know what you're doing, someone could die, and learning how to prevent that is simple enough that everyone should learn how to do it.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
In the event that you encounter a firearm, knowing how to safely disarm it is pretty important.
That's a big if, isn't it?

To me, learning gun safety is as important as learning basic first aid and resuscitation. You probably won't be faced with having to handle a gun in your lifetime, but you probably won't ever have to give CPR to anyone, either. Doesn't mean you shouldn't know the basics of both, because in both situations if you don't know what you're doing, someone could die, and learning how to prevent that is simple enough that everyone should learn how to do it.
Not a bad comparison. I've said it before, but as long as we have guns in this country, we should have gun safety courses like we do driver's ed.
     
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That's a big if, isn't it?
So's dying in a plane crash, but they still do that damn safety song-and-dance before every single flight...

Not a bad comparison. I've said it before, but as long as we have guns in this country, we should have gun safety courses like we do driver's ed.
I agree wholeheartedly.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
So's dying in a plane crash, but they still do that damn safety song-and-dance before every single flight...
That's more out of inertia isn't it? I mean, no one actually pays attention.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh, I didn't realize that was the answer. Mostly because we started form here:



P.S. I would think that the notion of guns not being entertaining would be either the minority or hypocrisy. Action movies and online shooters are some of the biggest entertainment in the country, right? People don't want gun control because they don't think they're fun, they want gun control because they think they're dangerous.
We're starting to go down the rabbit-hole here. It would help with continuity if you'd stick around when you weren't on the clock

Let me try from the beginning.

There are lots of people who hate guns. The people who hate guns tend not to know a lot about them, which has relevance when one is writing legislation.

On a smaller level, one of the things people who hate guns don't realize is guns are fun, and by that I'd mean it'd be fun for them. Without having done it themselves I get the feeling they think it would be fun the way lighting farts is fun: fun for idiots. Fun for people who've built their altar of destruction and thrill-kill.

Sort of like people who form opinions of video games without knowing what they're talking about. They have preconceived notions of the kind of person who plays a video game, and what playing one is about.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let me try from the beginning.

There are lots of people who hate guns. The people who hate guns tend not to know a lot about them, which has relevance when one is writing legislation.
About as much relevance as thinking they're fun.

You want to tell me some gun control advocates don't know what they're talking about or are doing it for the wrong reasons? Sure. Same goes for idiots on the other side as well. But do I need to fire a gun to understand that its the most used and effective tool in suicides? Do I need to fire a gun to understand our background check system sucks? Do I need to fire a gun to have legitimate debate on tracing firearms, funding studies, and appointing an ATF head?
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:56 PM
 
The relevance of fun is the opinion held towards people who find it fun.

If guns disgust you, what opinion do you hold towards people who find it fun? What opinion do you hold of their opinions.

If you then try it and realize you find it just as fun, that's not going to be a big shake-up for you?
     
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Sep 23, 2013, 04:59 PM
 
Sport shooting is a blast (PI), also guns aren't nearly as scary and threatening after you've been to the range for a day.


However, with sufficient practice most people can be deadly with a slingshot. I'm pretty confident I could kill a man at 30 paces with mine (20mm bearings). My slingshot mentor:

Using the Slingshot to Hunt Bigger Game - YouTube
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subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 05:00 PM
 
Or just a sling. Ask Goliath.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The relevance of fun is the opinion held towards people who find it fun.

If guns disgust you, what opinion do you hold towards people who find it fun? What opinion do you hold of their opinions.

If you then try it and realize you find it just as fun, that's not going to be a big shake-up for you?
How is this any different than thinking less of a person because they like hip-hop culture, or are Christian, or like NASCAR, or horse racing, or are pro-choice, or pro-abstinence, or went to ivy league schools or dropped out of HS, or inherited money or grew up dirt poor?

We're just talking really narrow-minded shit now or a complete lack of empathy.

But do I need to fire a gun to understand that its the most used and effective tool in suicides? Do I need to fire a gun to understand our background check system sucks? Do I need to fire a gun to have legitimate debate on tracing firearms, funding studies, and appointing an ATF head?
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
It's not any different.

You don't need to fire a gun to answer the above questions.

What's your point?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 05:19 PM
 
That this:
I also want to add, I have not met a single person who hasn't had some foul personal experience with guns, who doesn't enjoy the **** out of shooting them once they try it. I'm talking far lefty, gun-control, granola hippies from hell.

The response is always "wow, I never would have thought I'd have enjoyed that so much".
Is completely meaningless in a discussion about gun control.
     
Shaddim
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Sep 23, 2013, 05:27 PM
 
Many people (not saying YOU) press for gun control because they're afraid of firearms (loud, they look scary, etc). We tend to fear what we're unfamiliar with.
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subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That this:

Is completely meaningless in a discussion about gun control.
Okay, I think I'm getting where you're coming from.

Alter my paragraph about people who try shooting and like it as applying to people who think it's impossible (or highly unlikely) they'd enjoy shooting guns.

My point isn't you need to have shot guns to have a legit opinion on gun control.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 23, 2013, 06:03 PM
 
BTW, I owe you an answer. Yes, I've been shooting before. Last summer a friend who had played CoD and Battlefield with my regular crew invited all of us to the range. I fired a host of pistols, a couple assault rifles (ACR!), a shotgun, and a sniper rifle.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 06:05 PM
 
I'm only pointing out the correlation between the more extreme proponents of gun control with a hatred of guns.

A hatred which tends to disappear upon use. I'm not saying they then join the NRA, but the position ends up softening.
     
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Sep 23, 2013, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Where is my bitterness or disdain? It'd be nice if I could ask you guys to spell shit out for me without getting projected on.
Whatever, Kevin. I typically find your snark amusing, but when you happen to have actual feels about something, the vibe gets contentious, you're seem to be stubborn to a fault and there's no fun to be had. Your response about Portland is overly pedantic and intentionally snotty. To some, it does indeed have some ethereal qualities that would be difficult to effectively convey. But your assessment of that pov is that it's asinine. Perhaps "subjective" would have been better? Let's chalk it up to a lack of alignment and everyone's (possible) reluctance to step back from their respective bitchy, non-sensical positions.

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subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 08:01 PM
 
Whoa, jeez. Calm down, tiger.

I think this is just a misunderstanding.

You and I are talking about a specific kind of person, which AFAICT, Dakar isn't.

Because Internet discussions aren't as clear as real discussions, it appeared to him we were including him on that list.

He took offense because including him on that list is unfair and incorrect. I don't have a problem with him defending himself from what he sees as an unfair allegation.
     
subego
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Sep 23, 2013, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
BTW, I owe you an answer. Yes, I've been shooting before. Last summer a friend who had played CoD and Battlefield with my regular crew invited all of us to the range. I fired a host of pistols, a couple assault rifles (ACR!), a shotgun, and a sniper rifle.
Well, I assume you had a good time.

To be clear, you hadn't ever struck me as someone who thinks they wouldn't enjoy shooting. OTOH, there are people here I'd guess think they wouldn't.
     
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Sep 25, 2013, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

Let me try from the beginning.

There are lots of people who hate guns. The people who hate guns tend not to know a lot about them, which has relevance when one is writing legislation.

On a smaller level, one of the things people who hate guns don't realize is guns are fun, and by that I'd mean it'd be fun for them. Without having done it themselves I get the feeling they think it would be fun the way lighting farts is fun: fun for idiots. Fun for people who've built their altar of destruction and thrill-kill.

Sort of like people who form opinions of video games without knowing what they're talking about. They have preconceived notions of the kind of person who plays a video game, and what playing one is about.
With schools engaging in social engineering these last few decades, and school admin's KNEE JERKING all sorts of rules so even a kid can get suspended for biting a pop tart into a gun shape, you need to overcome this idiotic BS.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 25, 2013, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Whatever, Kevin. I typically find your snark amusing, but when you happen to have actual feels about something, the vibe gets contentious, you're seem to be stubborn to a fault and there's no fun to be had.
I apologize for removing the fun to be had in a thread about a mass shooting.


Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Your response about Portland is overly pedantic and intentionally snotty.
It's pedantic to point out you can convey value to a person that has experienced something?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Whoa, jeez. Calm down, tiger.

I think this is just a misunderstanding.

You and I are talking about a specific kind of person, which AFAICT, Dakar isn't.

Because Internet discussions aren't as clear as real discussions, it appeared to him we were including him on that list.

He took offense because including him on that list is unfair and incorrect. I don't have a problem with him defending himself from what he sees as an unfair allegation.
He's not calling me bitter?


Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, I assume you had a good time.

To be clear, you hadn't ever struck me as someone who thinks they wouldn't enjoy shooting. OTOH, there are people here I'd guess think they wouldn't.
It was fun, but it's obvious I was missing something. I took rounds home because I really got bored firing the ARs. I don't know, I have comparison to be made in my mind, but I think it'll unleash a holy hell on me.
     
subego
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Sep 25, 2013, 12:58 PM
 
Do it.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do it.
No. I'm busy at the moment, and I imagine I'm going to catch some serious flack from the gun folk for either being loco or juvenile.
     
subego
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:14 PM
 
You don't need to be present to catch flack.

You can go back to work and we can raeg against the Dakar.
     
subego
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:16 PM
 
You are loco and juvenile!

See? It doesn't hurt that bad.
     
subego
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:26 PM
 
The problem is the spread of thoughts you gave us.

People will think I'm loco...

Did you have a sudden urge to shoot up a kindergarten?

People will think I'm juvenile...

Did you wish you were lighting farts instead?
     
subego
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:28 PM
 
Either way, should you decide to open up, I've got your back.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Either way, should you decide to open up, I've got your back.
Yes, that internet forum badassery is sure to dissuade the normal PL shitfest.
     
subego
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Sep 25, 2013, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yes, that internet forum badassery is sure to dissuade the normal PL shitfest.
Badass? Hardly.

I wasn't claiming I could dissuade anyone, just that I wasn't going to leave you to deal with the shitfest by yourself.
     
subego
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Sep 26, 2013, 01:04 PM
 
So, you're going to make us guess.

It was a little too much like The Deer Hunter?
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 27, 2013, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, you're going to make us guess.

It was a little too much like The Deer Hunter?
I wasn't around yesterday. I suppose I could dent that can of worms.

I just didn't find it too much "fun." Cool, but not that fun. Like I said, I got bored firing an AR.

This will be ripe for "your friends did a shitty job" comments
     
Shaddim
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Sep 27, 2013, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I wasn't around yesterday. I suppose I could dent that can of worms.

I just didn't find it too much "fun." Cool, but not that fun. Like I said, I got bored firing an AR.

This will be ripe for "your friends did a shitty job" comments
Nah, my wife carries a gun, a .22 magnum, but hates shooting firearms. There's all types in the world.
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subego
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Sep 27, 2013, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I wasn't around yesterday. I suppose I could dent that can of worms.

I just didn't find it too much "fun." Cool, but not that fun. Like I said, I got bored firing an AR.

This will be ripe for "your friends did a shitty job" comments

Loco! Juvenile!
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 27, 2013, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Loco! Juvenile!
That's not the crazy part. That's dipping my toe in the water.
     
subego
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Sep 27, 2013, 03:19 PM
 
That's only size=10. I can do 40.
     
subego
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Sep 27, 2013, 03:20 PM
 
Don't make me go full-Chongo on you.
     
subego
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Sep 27, 2013, 04:03 PM
 
     
subego
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Sep 27, 2013, 04:04 PM
 
See? Loco juveniles such as yourself get no mercy.
     
subego
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Sep 27, 2013, 05:15 PM
 
Serious question before I go back to being a dick.

We're you any good? I assume you weren't putting shots through the same hole at 100 yards and going "yawn" afterwards.

I've found new shooters should start with a good, old-fashioned .22 rimfire plinking rifle. Get some satisfaction out of building some skill, and then move to something which will knock you on your ass.

Shooting an AR would be fun for me because it would be fun seeing how good I am with it compared to other weapons. Especially compared to something with zero kick, like a .22 rimfire.

That said, I feel there's some similarity with golf in that respect, and that seems like the dumbest thing ever. I'd rather just take a walk in the park.


P.S. This isn't "your friends did it wrong", I'm just curious.
     
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Oct 26, 2013, 03:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
The problem is, an AR-15 isn't any more dangerous than a hunting rifle. It's just a rifle that looks cool, and because people think it looks scary, they want to ban it.

The federal assault weapons ban from the 90s didn't ban weapons that were inherently more dangerous than weapons not classified as assault weapons. It simply banned the gun equivalent of painted-on flames. For instance, on a semi-automatic rifle (that is, a rifle that holds multiple rounds, ejects spent rounds automatically, and fires one round per pull of the trigger), a pistol grip and a telescoping stock combined would classify it as an assault weapon.

...

Fully automatic weapons are not federally banned in the United States. However, they are heavily taxed and regulated, and that prevents the wide majority of law-abiding citizens from owning them. Illegally-owned fully automatic firearms are not obtained from law-abiding citizens. They are obtained on the black market, originating outside the United States, stolen from law enforcement armories, or distributed via corrupt law enforcement officers.

The National Firearms Act makes it illegal to manufacture or import fully automatic firearms, and:



Fully automatic weapons legally in civilian possession today are very valuable collector items. Nobody's using them to hold up a liquor store or shoot up an elementary school.

In fact, a study cited in this Wikipedia article states the following:

Stop the BS.

This incident happen in North Hollywood, close to where I went to High School.

North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AR15 and AK47 were converted to fully-automatic weapons and 100 round drums. Those were used in a bank robbery.
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Oct 26, 2013, 03:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
An AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle. A semi-automatic shotgun can do just as much damage in a crowded public place as an AR-15. The fire rate is the same between a semi-automatic rifle, shotgun, or AR-15. An AR-15 looks scarier. Just like how painting flames on a Dodge Neon won't make it go faster, putting a pistol grip on a rifle won't make it shoot faster.
Why do you keep repeating this NRA nonsense? The AR-15 is scary looking? I'm sure most people want an AR-15 cause it's cool looking. Painting it with hello kitty artwork just makes it look less cool.

I guess White Republicans dislike/hate Obama cause black people look scary to them. Actually, that's probably true for some Republicans.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
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subego
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Oct 26, 2013, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Stop the BS.

This incident happen in North Hollywood, close to where I went to High School.

North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AR15 and AK47 were converted to fully-automatic weapons and 100 round drums. Those were used in a bank robbery.
The point is it seems like someone goes on a shooting rampage every month. The example you came up with for a full-auto conversion was more than 15 years ago.

I'd say one is significantly more worrisome than the other.

I'd say the lesson from that shoot-out is trying that gets you killed.

Edit: and also note those robbers managed to kill no one. Automatic fire isn't for killing people, it's for getting people to keep their heads down so they don't fire back at you. Which if you watch the tape, is what happened. People didn't want to risk exposing themselves to shoot back. It's been ages since I watched it, but I'll bet dollars to donuts the cops ultimately won by flanking the robbers.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 26, 2013, 03:09 PM
 
Yep. The vast majority of the time, suppression fire isn't deadly fire. Despite the nonsense that Hollywood has filled kids' heads with.
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subego
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Oct 26, 2013, 03:13 PM
 
Well, to be fair, in Hollywood, when automatic weapons come out people tend to just stand there, out in the open.

If you do that, it'll probably kill you.
     
ghporter
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Oct 26, 2013, 03:23 PM
 
Is it just that we have a nationwide (and almost totally worldwide) 24 hour news cycle that we see more reports like this? Probably not only for that reason. But when there's a "particularly newsworthy" event, the news machine tends to grab anything even remotely related and blast us all with that too. For example, there was a shooting at a Tennessee Army National Guard armory yesterday, and it got a lot of press. It was, however, a pretty pedestrian case of workplace violence, with the shooter disarmed and subdued and the two victims having only minor injuries (they were the shooter's superiors). But since it was at "an armory!!!!11!!!!1oneee!", it sounds like a mass shooting.

The news media completely ignored these "truth" and "accuracy" things in reporting the Navy Yard shootings, too, reporting that the perpetrator used "an AR15 rifle." He used a pump-action shotgun (just like Vice President Biden said people should have for home protection!), and was able to kill and injure so many people because it was a shotgun...

We're more aware of events all over the country, but that doesn't mean the actual rate of such crimes has increased. In fact I think it's at worst even with the 1970s. It would take a pretty big research project to do it, but I'll bet it could be shown that the per capita rate of violent crime, and particularly the rate of crimes where someone uses a gun to injure or kill others, has DECREASED from the 1960s and '70s. Back then, local papers submitted stories to the wire services, and the wire service editors decided what to pass on. Then other local papers' editors decided what to use from the wire services. Which means that there was a lot more selectivity in what got publicized nationally.

Now, it isn't "news," it's "infotainment," and to slake the thirst people seem to have for horror and mayhem, talking heads drone on endlessly about a single incident somewhere that the talking heads never even heard of before, spewing evidence of their complete ignorance of every facet of what they're talking about. More words about a single event do not make it a more important event, they just get the broadcasters more ad spots to sell for a given event. I can't see Walter Cronkite reporting the stuff we're getting thrown at us in anything like the way today's talking heads do it. But then Walter was a journalist, not a talking head...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
 
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