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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Could Pixar ever one-up Appleseed Ex-Machina?

Could Pixar ever one-up Appleseed Ex-Machina?
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The Godfather
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Mar 20, 2008, 12:37 AM
 
I just watched the Ex-Machina and wow, it is light years beyond anything that Pixar has ever done. Should Disney and Jobs be worried about the crown of CGI being stolen to blatantly?

Perhaps Disney could order Pixar to produce an adult-engaging story in a superb, realistic style and serve Asian animators once and for all?

Or perhaps stick with kiddie movies.
     
Chuckit
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:17 AM
 
I didn't know what Appleseed was, so I looked it up on YouTube and found the trailer, and…what about this is supposed to be better than Pixar? Having seen the trailers for both this and WALL•E, I'm much more interested in the latter.
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turtle777
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:30 AM
 
I have never heard of Appleseed or Ex-Machina.

So I wouldn't be worried about stealing Pixars crown (yet).

-t
     
starman
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:40 AM
 
Square did a better job with FF VII: Advent Children. That was just amazing.

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ort888
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:45 AM
 
I've only seen the trailer, but if you are talking about quality of CG, then I would say that Pixar is light years ahead.

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silver
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Mar 20, 2008, 02:16 AM
 
Seen it few months ago and for an anime it's pretty good, although there's still many others that just smoke it. Like starman said Advent Children.

On the CGI stand point it's really still below Pixar level. If you watch it again or like me about 10 times(due to work) there's many many things that needed more work but because of the added render time the quality in some areas had to be dropped.


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Chuckit
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Mar 20, 2008, 02:30 AM
 
What on earth do you do that requires you to watch a Japanese cartoon 10 times?
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silver
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Mar 20, 2008, 04:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
What on earth do you do that requires you to watch a Japanese cartoon 10 times?
3D Artist specializing in Visual Effects Animation.
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Mar 20, 2008, 04:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
I just watched the Ex-Machina and wow, it is light years beyond anything that Pixar has ever done.
You have got to be f*cking kidding me. I've seen better CGI in video games.

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Mar 20, 2008, 07:18 AM
 
Never heard of appleseed ex-machina until this thread..

pixar is doing fine with the "kiddie" movies as you call them. Why should they want to compete with Japanese cartoons.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
I just watched the Ex-Machina and wow, it is light years beyond anything that Pixar has ever done.
I just watched the trailer all set to be impressed... it wasn't very impressive. Seemed like a computer game cutscene.

How is that impressive?

Mechanical movements, uninspired surroundings and *anime* characters!? So.. no I don't think anyone at Pixar is losing sleep over *that*.

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analogika
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Mar 20, 2008, 08:10 AM
 
The trailers:

IGN Video

Apple - Trailers - WALL•E - HD

Why are you even comparing these two? You're acting as if they were in the same ballpark, when they're not even playing the same GAME.
     
ort888
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Mar 20, 2008, 10:46 AM
 
I would like to see Pixar make a movie intended for a mature audience. Their children's films are fantastic, and enjoyable for people of all ages, but it would be interesting to see what they could do if they tried to make a more mature movie and push the boundaries of american animation.

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starman
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Mar 20, 2008, 11:14 AM
 
I saw Cars for the first time a few weeks ago. Big snooze fest. Pixar needs to change things up because the "talking things" style is pretty much done. Put a fork in it. Move on to something new.

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turtle777
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Mar 20, 2008, 11:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I saw Cars for the first time a few weeks ago. Big snooze fest. Pixar needs to change things up because the "talking things" style is pretty much done. Put a fork in it. Move on to something new.
Well, they did with Ratatouille.

Or is a mouse a "thing" ?

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Chuckit
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Mar 20, 2008, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I would like to see Pixar make a movie intended for a mature audience. Their children's films are fantastic, and enjoyable for people of all ages, but it would be interesting to see what they could do if they tried to make a more mature movie and push the boundaries of american animation.
I don't think all of Pixar's movies are childish. I know lots of adults who enjoy many of them. (Granted, as starman said, Cars isn't one.)
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Mar 20, 2008, 01:05 PM
 
They are not childish, per se, but they are movies that are created for children. The quality is high enough that they are enjoyable for everyone, but the target audience has always been children.

Don't think I'm saying that as a negative, because I'm not. It's just the way it is. I love all of them (except Cars, which was ok at best) Pixar movies appeal to children, and the children inside all of us. It's not a bad thing, just a pattern.


And Cars is by far their worst movie. Just for the record.

Talking things? What does that mean anyway? Isn't every movie about talking things?

...you have Toy Story, which has Toys which are technically "things", but then again, not exactly, since they look like little people... then you have Cars... which are definitally things... but then what????

Fish? Monsters? Superheros? Rats? Bugs? A robot that doesn't talk?

The "talking things" criticism really doesn't fit.
( Last edited by ort888; Mar 20, 2008 at 01:11 PM. )

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silver
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Mar 20, 2008, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
They are not childish, per se, but they are movies that are created for children. The quality is high enough that they are enjoyable for everyone, but the target audience has always been children.

Don't think I'm saying that as a negative, because I'm not. It's just the way it is. I love all of them (except Cars, which was ok at best) Pixar movies appeal to children, and the children inside all of us. It's not a bad thing, just a pattern.
You beat me to the punch ort.


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finboy
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Mar 20, 2008, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I would like to see Pixar make a movie intended for a mature audience.
Or, they could continue to make kid movies.

Another way of saying it: "Fritz the Cat" and "Heavy Metal" are the only animated movies made for "mature audiences." Everything else is a cartoon.
     
analogika
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Mar 20, 2008, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Another way of saying it: "Fritz the Cat" and "Heavy Metal" are the only animated movies made for "mature audiences." Everything else is a cartoon.
Oh, there's plenty more.

If you haven't seen it, you owe it to yourself to track down "The Triplets of Belleville".

Marvellous movie.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 03:56 PM
 
Persepolis? And Miyazaki's films.
     
Chuckit
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Mar 20, 2008, 04:33 PM
 
Most of Miyasaki's films are just as much for children as anything Pixar does. The only counterexample that immediately comes to mind is Grave of the Fireflies. There may be more, but I think Spirited Away, Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service and so on definitely fall into the same good-for-all-ages category that Pixar's works do.
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silver
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Mar 20, 2008, 04:44 PM
 
finboy is right nothing has come out from USA for mature audiences after the 2 titles mentioned.

Side note:

1. "The Triplets of Belleville" (french) Great art direction.
2. Miyazaki's films ( japan) Good storyteller, but don't care for his work.
3. Persepolis (french) Watch it in french the way it was made, not the English dubbed Sony crud.

Those 3 are from outside the USA, in fact very little good Animation comes from the America. Just look at the many offerings during Siggrapgh, you'll note that many top picks come from European film schools.

Anyway two each his own.
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finboy
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Mar 20, 2008, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by silver View Post
Anyway two each his own.
I'm just not impressed with much of the animated stuff that is supposed to be for adults. Anime, in particular, is only engaging for a few hours or so. So much of the Japanese stuff seems like the same thing over and over, or "Battle for the Planets" writ large.
     
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Mar 20, 2008, 05:33 PM
 
There was Titan A.E., which was somewhat in between adults and children (and not very good, in my opinion).

Uh, there are more... crap. Let me think about this.

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ort888
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Mar 20, 2008, 05:36 PM
 
Cool World
Simpsons movie
Beavis and Butthead movie
Aqua Teen hunger Force Movie

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Chuckit
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Mar 20, 2008, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
I'm just not impressed with much of the animated stuff that is supposed to be for adults. Anime, in particular, is only engaging for a few hours or so. So much of the Japanese stuff seems like the same thing over and over, or "Battle for the Planets" writ large.
A lot of it is that way, just like a lot of sitcoms are some annoying dude with an unrealistically hot wife getting harassed by his in-laws. As it's said, 90% of everything is crap. This is why I tend not to bother watching anything (I mean anything, not just anime) unless it a) comes from someone I respect, or b) comes with a really strong recommendation from someone I respect. (Or has a really hot chick in it. One of the three.)
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Mar 22, 2008, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I saw Cars for the first time a few weeks ago. Big snooze fest. Pixar needs to change things up because the "talking things" style is pretty much done. Put a fork in it. Move on to something new.
Uh, it might not have been to your taste, but it was the sixth-highest grossing film of 2006, making more than $462,000,000 worldwide. I'm thinking they've got a little life left in that "talking things" formula.
     
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Mar 22, 2008, 12:44 PM
 
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Pixar doesn't even know that this whole Ex-Machina thing exists (kind of like 99.9% of the American public). I'm pretty sure they're not worried.

I saw about the first 15 minutes of FF VII: Advent Children before I got bored with it and turned it off. The only reason I gave it a rent in the first place is because I loved FF VII so much.

And there's a reason why my local Hollywood video store had one copy of FF VII:AC and about 40 copies of Cars. And no, it's not because the general public is comprised of absolute morons. It's because Pixar does a phenomenal job at capturing a depth of emotions, whether they're using people, ants, toys, fish, or cars. FF VII: AC felt comparatively lifeless to me.

People might be able to one-up Pixar as for as CGI goes, but so far they haven't managed to top them in storytelling and emotion.
     
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Mar 22, 2008, 01:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Pixar doesn't even know that this whole Ex-Machina thing exists (kind of like 99.9% of the American public). I'm pretty sure they're not worried.

I saw about the first 15 minutes of FF VII: Advent Children before I got bored with it and turned it off. The only reason I gave it a rent in the first place is because I loved FF VII so much.

And there's a reason why my local Hollywood video store had one copy of FF VII:AC and about 40 copies of Cars. And no, it's not because the general public is comprised of absolute morons. It's because Pixar does a phenomenal job at capturing a depth of emotions, whether they're using people, ants, toys, fish, or cars. FF VII: AC felt comparatively lifeless to me.

People might be able to one-up Pixar as for as CGI goes, but so far they haven't managed to top them in storytelling and emotion.
So you're saying that the team behind Shrek can't do better? Cars made $244m in 2006, Shrek the Third made $322m in 2007.

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Mar 22, 2008, 05:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I would like to see Pixar make a movie intended for a mature audience. Their children's films are fantastic, and enjoyable for people of all ages, but it would be interesting to see what they could do if they tried to make a more mature movie and push the boundaries of american animation.
Give it 10 or 15 years. Today's audiences just aren't going to go see a movie just because it's completely CG. Beowulf anywone? Only when the current generation of kids who grew up with Toy Story, Shrek, et. al., replaces those who run the studios, and the movie-going public at large, will there be productions of and demand for adult-oriented full CG movies. Not only that, but the medium itself will have improved greatly by then as well.

And honestly, anime? Aside from a niche of pimply-faced teenagers, there just isn't a demographic that is actually going to pay to watch that.
     
starman
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Mar 22, 2008, 10:43 PM
 
Best Buy has an entire anime section which I always see people in. Apparently, if BB devotes a whole section to it, I'm sure there's a market rather than throwing it into "special interest".

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Mar 23, 2008, 12:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So you're saying that the team behind Shrek can't do better? Cars made $244m in 2006, Shrek the Third made $322m in 2007.
Nah, I'm a fan of Dreamworks Animation as well. I loved Madagascar and Over the Hedge. I'm referring more to stuff like this Appleseed Ex-Machina nonsense.

But…

Worldwide earnings and average ratings from Rotten Tomatoes:

Dreamworks Animation:
1998 - Antz $171,757,863 - 97
2001 - Shrek $484,409,218 - 89
2004 - Shrek 2 $919,838,758 - 88
2004 - Shark Tale $367,275,019 - 34
2005 - Madagascar $532,680,671 - 55
2006 - Over the Hedge $335,206,062 - 74
2007 - Shrek the Third $794,561,223 - 42
2007 - Bee Movie $281,634,940 - 52

Pixar:
1995 - Toy Story $361,958,736 - 100
1998 - A Bug's Life - $363,398,565 - 91
1999 - Toy Story 2 $485,015,179 - 100
2001 - Monster's Inc. $525,366,597 - 95
2003 - Finding Nemo $864,625,978 - 98
2004 - The Incredibles $631,442,092 - 97
2006 - Cars $461,981,604 - 76
2007 - Ratatouille $620,261,049 – 97

Average Critical Rating on Rotten Tomatoes:
DW Animation – 66.38
Pixar Studios - 95.25

Average Worldwide Earnings:
DW Animation - $485,920,469
Pixar Studios - $539,256,225

So even though Dreamworks Animation is almost neck-and-neck with Pixar as far as worldwide earnings are concerned, they’re lengths behind in quality (if you put any stock in these ratings). Cars was the only Pixar movie to not average in the 90s.

Additionally, Shrek is Dreamworks Animation’s only franchise that seems to pull in earnings (which is why the fifth in the franchise is already scheduled for a 2013 release. The average worldwide gross is a bit skewed towards the high end to due Shrek’s earnings, especially the ridiculous $919,838,758 that Shrek 2 pulled in.

And it was convenient to use Pixar’s “worst” movie in a comparison with Shrek 2. Ratatouille would’ve been a fair comparison to Shrek the Third, since they were both released the same year. Shrek the Third pulled in more cash, but was critically panned while Ratatouille won an Oscar.

Long story short: Pixar’s still a step ahead. Dreamworks only got on board the computer-animated craze after Toy Story became such a hit.
( Last edited by Jawbone54; Mar 23, 2008 at 12:44 AM. )
     
starman
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Mar 23, 2008, 12:36 AM
 
CG movies were a long time coming, I don't know for sure I'd agree that Dreamworks jumped on the bandwagon because of Pixar. I saw a lot of really great non-Pixar stuff from SIGGRAPH since I got into CGI back in the late 80's.

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Mar 23, 2008, 12:43 AM
 
There were definitely major steps made. I think Pixar just helped pull it through the growing pains into adulthood.

I'm not crazy about Pixar taking the risk of beating Toy Story into the ground, but Wall-E looks hilarious, based on the latest trailer.
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 01:04 AM
 
I was going to say Watership Down but apparently that's British.

But, don't forget the other Bakshi films, LoTR and Wizards.

Can't say this really makes the case that there are more mature American productions though, more that RB is the exception that proves the rule.
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 08:17 AM
 
Saying no one at Pixar knows about Appleseed Ex-Machina is silly. I am sure they do. There are only so many Feature length CGI movies out there.

Apart from that, calling it better than Pixar Movies is like comparing The Matrix to Juno. And asking if the makers of Juno could make a better action movie. What the hell man?

They are different, but share the same medium. That is fine. No need to declare one animated feature king, just to do so.

That said, the first Appleseed sucked. I have low expectations for the second.

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Mar 23, 2008, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by OwlBoy View Post
Apart from that, calling it better than Pixar Movies is like comparing The Matrix to Juno.
No contest there, at all: The Matrix is a way, WAY better synth than any of the Junos.
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
1998 - Antz $171,757,863 - 97
2001 - Shrek $484,409,218 - 89
2004 - Shrek 2 $919,838,758 - 88
2004 - Shark Tale $367,275,019 - 34
2005 - Madagascar $532,680,671 - 55
2006 - Over the Hedge $335,206,062 - 74
2007 - Shrek the Third $794,561,223 - 42
2007 - Bee Movie $281,634,940 - 52

Pixar:
1995 - Toy Story $361,958,736 - 100
1998 - A Bug's Life - $363,398,565 - 91
1999 - Toy Story 2 $485,015,179 - 100
2001 - Monster's Inc. $525,366,597 - 95
2003 - Finding Nemo $864,625,978 - 98
2004 - The Incredibles $631,442,092 - 97
2006 - Cars $461,981,604 - 76
2007 - Ratatouille $620,261,049 – 97
ANTZ? Antz is the highest rated Dreamworks animation? Please tell me your fingers slipped from the 1 to the 9. Antz was derivative crap. (Yes, it came out before A Bug's Life, but only because it was rushed. It was a gigantic case of "Pixar's doing a bug movie, let's hurry out some crappy version of the same kind of thing!)

The animators at Pixar are amazing. Just watch Ratatouille once concentrating on the little movements of the characters - their noses, whiskers, "hands", eyes, and how it all works together. The animation is simply stunning.
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Mar 23, 2008, 05:37 PM
 
Actually, i liked "Antz" a lot better than "Bug's Life".

That and "Shrek" are the only two from the Dreamworks side that rated more than "okay, so that was pretty entertaining" for me.
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 07:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by davesimondotcom View Post
The animators at Pixar are amazing. Just watch Ratatouille once concentrating on the little movements of the characters - their noses, whiskers, "hands", eyes, and how it all works together. The animation is simply stunning.
And Appleseed had some really stiff emotionless animation. Maybe a few cool action scenes… but look at Cars for some cool action scenes in the races.

-Owl
     
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Mar 23, 2008, 11:21 PM
 
Pixar is not going for any CGI "crown." They make movies to tell stories. If you watch commentary for The Incredibles, you'll hear them explain precisely why trying to make things look too realistic is detrimental to the look and feel of the movie.
     
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Mar 24, 2008, 11:05 AM
 
No slippage on the rating for Antz. I have no idea why that movie was so highly rated.

Originally Posted by hayesk
Pixar is not going for any CGI "crown." They make movies to tell stories. If you watch commentary for The Incredibles, you'll hear them explain precisely why trying to make things look too realistic is detrimental to the look and feel of the movie.
*bing*

Exactly. Pixar might not make you scream ultra-realism stylistically, but the small gestures, expressions, and the other "little things" work so much better than other CGI movies I've seen.
     
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Mar 24, 2008, 11:42 AM
 
I think they are interested in being CGI leaders. Yes, storytelling is very important to them, but so is pushing the limits of CG and staying on top of the game.

I think the technical aspect of the films are very very important to them internally. I think they take a lot of pride at being at the top of the computer animation world. I think they do make a deliberate and conscious effort to keep the "CGI crown" as it were.

It doesn't mean that they sacrifice storytelling to do it, just that it is always on their mind.

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Mar 24, 2008, 11:43 AM
 
I'm amazed the OP hasn't responded to his thread.
     
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Mar 24, 2008, 01:01 PM
 
As a person who never watches movies too often, I have to say that I have seen all of Pixar's movies with the exception of Cars. In contrast, I have only seen one episode of Shrek in all of Dreamworks major animated movies. Take that as you will.

Favorite Pixar fims: TS 1&2, A Bug's life, Monsters, Finding Nemo

To this day, visit any aquarium or pet store with an orange fish with white stripes, someone will always say that they found Nemo.
     
finboy
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Mar 24, 2008, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Best Buy has an entire anime section which I always see people in. Apparently, if BB devotes a whole section to it, I'm sure there's a market rather than throwing it into "special interest".

People watch hockey too. There's a "market".
     
ort888
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Mar 24, 2008, 01:59 PM
 
Hey man, don't be knocking hockey.

As for anime, I think the overall market size is small, but it's a demographic that buys a lot of DVDs. So anime disc sales are not proportionate to the real audience size, but they make a lot of money for being such a niche product.

Then again, I think it is a bigger deal then many of us think. If you go to any big chain bookstore, in a mall or where ever, they all have huge sections devoted to Manga.

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- - e r i k - -
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Mar 24, 2008, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Actually, i liked "Antz" a lot better than "Bug's Life".

That and "Shrek" are the only two from the Dreamworks side that rated more than "okay, so that was pretty entertaining" for me.
Although I prefer the Juno-G to a Matrix any day, I second these comments.
I keed. I just lolled at the reference

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Jawbone54
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Mar 25, 2008, 01:16 AM
 
My wife told me she'd leave if I brought an anime movie home.

I told her she didn't have anything to worry about.
     
 
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