[Kevin]

"Americans of all ages overwhelmingly understand that marijuana is less harmful to health and society than either alcohol or tobacco," said Allen St. Pierre, Executive Director of The NORML Foundation. "Marijuana fails to inflict the type of serious health consequences these two legal drugs cause. An estimated 50,000 people die each year from alcohol poisoning, and more than 400,000 annual deaths are attributed to tobacco smoking. By comparison, marijuana is non-toxic and cannot cause death by overdose."

He added: "Neither the marijuana user nor the drug itself presents a legitimate danger to public safety. It's current classification as a Schedule I criminally prohibited drug is disproportionate to its relative harmlessness. Science and the American public acknowledge this reality. It's now time for our marijuana policies to reflect this fact."

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ghporter

von Wrangell, I think you're talking WAY over this guy's head. His mind's made up so facts won't sway him.

Taking chemistry in college didn't give me a lick of credibility. It gave me some long days and short nights, and an appreciation of how people can screw up in a lab, but not credibility. Learning about research, and about how to interpret it (a nice engineering-level stats class is good for that) gives one tools to understand what one learns. The rest is use (or failure to use) of common sense and logic. See my first statement for further discussion.

Absolutely agree.

It just a waste of time arguing with people like him (legalize it crew) about this. I'm just waiting for some imbecile to quote NORML or some other organisation about how safe Marijuana is.

[draggerman11]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Yes, I mean just look at Canada, Belgium, Japan and various other liberal nations. A mess I tell you! What we need are more country's like Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, conservative America, oppressive Cuba, North Korea, and various other countries where liberal ideas are frowned upon. It's not your decision as to whether or not you can marry this person, have that child, smoke that joint. The right to pursue what gives you happiness? F*ck that.

Liberalism has nothing to do with deciding how to live your life. It has to do with government control in the ostensible name of helping the people. Free health care. Control of the economy. Nationalized industries.

Is conservatism any better? No. They just want to control the people's social lives. But it is just false to paint liberalism as the vanguard of personal responsibility and freedom.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by draggerman11

Liberalism has nothing to do with deciding how to live your life. It has to do with government control in the ostensible name of helping the people. Free health care. Control of the economy. Nationalized industries.

That's just so terribly wrong.

[Doofy]

Somebody shoot me... ...I'm agreeing with vonW too much in this thread.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Somebody shoot me... ...I'm agreeing with vonW too much in this thread.

Just go to the pol lounge. Then order will be restored.

Though don't expect me to reply to you there. I have you on ignore.

(just read your posts in the regular lounge. We seem to agree on most things in here )

[Doofy]

.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Just go to the pol lounge. Then order will be restored.

Though don't expect me to reply to you there. I have you on ignore.

[Kevin]

MYTH: MARIJUANA'S HARMS HAVE BEEN PROVED SCIENTIFICALLY. In the 1960s and 1970s, many people believed that marijuana was harmless. Today we know that marijuana is much more dangerous than previously believed.

FACT: In 1972, after reviewing the scientific evidence, the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse concluded that while marijuana was not entirely safe, its dangers had been grossly overstated. Since then, researchers have conducted thousands of studies of humans, animals, and cell cultures. None reveal any findings dramatically different from those described by the National Commission in 1972. In 1995, based on thirty years of scientific research editors of the British medical journal Lancet concluded that "the smoking of cannabis, even long term, is not harmful to health."

MYTH: MARIJUANA HAS NO MEDICINAL VALUE. Safer, more effective drugs are available. They include a synthetic version of THC, marijuana's primary active ingredient, which is marketed in the United States under the name Marinol.

FACT: Marijuana has been shown to be effective in reducing the nausea induced by cancer chemotherapy, stimulating appetite in AIDS patients, and reducing intraocular pressure in people with glaucoma. There is also appreciable evidence that marijuana reduces muscle spasticity in patients with neurological disorders. A synthetic capsule is available by prescription, but it is not as effective as smoked marijuana for many patients. Pure THC may also produce more unpleasant psychoactive side effects than smoked marijuana. Many people use marijuana as a medicine today, despite its illegality. In doing so, they risk arrest and imprisonment.

MYTH: MARIJUANA IS HIGHLY ADDICTIVE. Long term marijuana users experience physical dependence and withdrawal, and often need professional drug treatment to break their marijuana habits.

FACT: Most people who smoke marijuana smoke it only occasionally. A small minority of Americans - less than 1 percent - smoke marijuana on a daily basis. An even smaller minority develop a dependence on marijuana. Some people who smoke marijuana heavily and frequently stop without difficulty. Others seek help from drug treatment professionals. Marijuana does not cause physical dependence. If people experience withdrawal symptoms at all, they are remarkably mild.

MYTH: MARIJUANA IS A GATEWAY DRUG. Even if marijuana itself causes minimal harm, it is a dangerous substance because it leads to the use of "harder drugs" like heroin, LSD, and cocaine.

FACT: Marijuana does not cause people to use hard drugs. What the gateway theory presents as a causal explanation is a statistic association between common and uncommon drugs, an association that changes over time as different drugs increase and decrease in prevalence. Marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the United States today. Therefore, people who have used less popular drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and LSD, are likely to have also used marijuana. Most marijuana users never use any other illegal drug. Indeed, for the large majority of people, marijuana is a terminus rather than a gateway drug.

MYTH: MARIJUANA OFFENSES ARE NOT SEVERELY PUNISHED. Few marijuana law violators are arrested and hardly anyone goes to prison. This lenient treatment is responsible for marijuana continued availability and use.

FACT: Marijuana arrests in the United States doubled between 1991 and 1995. In 1995, more than one-half-million people were arrested for marijuana offenses. Eighty-six percent of them were arrested for marijuana possession. Tens of thousands of people are now in prison or marijuana offenses. An even greater number are punished with probation, fines, and civil sanctions, including having their property seized, their driver's license revoked, and their employment terminated. Despite these civil and criminal sanctions, marijuana continues to be readily available and widely used.

MYTH: MARIJUANA POLICY IN THE NETHERLANDS IS A FAILURE. Dutch law, which allows marijuana to be bought, sold, and used openly, has resulted in increasing rates of marijuana use, particularly in youth.

FACT: The Netherlands' drug policy is the most nonpunitive in Europe. For more than twenty years, Dutch citizens over age eighteen have been permitted to buy and use cannabis (marijuana and hashish) in government-regulated coffee shops. This policy has not resulted in dramatically escalating cannabis use. For most age groups, rates of marijuana use in the Netherlands are similar to those in the United States. However, for young adolescents, rates of marijuana use are lower in the Netherlands than in the United States. The Dutch people overwhelmingly approve of current cannabis policy which seeks to normalize rather than dramatize cannabis use. The Dutch government occasionally revises existing policy, but it remains committed to decriminalization.

MYTH: MARIJUANA KILLS BRAIN CELLS. Used over time, marijuana permanently alters brain structure and function, causing memory loss, cognitive impairment, personality deterioration, and reduced productivity.

FACT: None of the medical tests currently used to detect brain damage in humans have found harm from marijuana, even from long term high-dose use. An early study reported brain damage in rhesus monkeys after six months exposure to high concentrations of marijuana smoke. In a recent, more carefully conducted study, researchers found no evidence of brain abnormality in monkeys that were forced to inhale the equivalent of four to five marijuana cigarettes every day for a year. The claim that marijuana kills brain cells is based on a speculative report dating back a quarter of a century that has never been supported by any scientific study.

MYTH: MARIJUANA CAUSES AN AMOTIVATIONAL SYNDROME. Marijuana makes users passive, apathetic, and uninterested in the future. Students who use marijuana become underachievers and workers who use marijuana become unproductive.

FACT: For twenty-five years, researchers have searched for a marijuana-induced amotivational syndrome and have failed to find it. People who are intoxicated constantly, regardless of the drug, are unlikely to be productive members of society. There is nothing about marijuana specifically that causes people to lose their drive and ambition. In laboratory studies, subjects given high doses of marijuana for several days or even several weeks exhibit no decrease in work motivation or productivity. Among working adults, marijuana users tend to earn higher wages than non-users. College students who use marijuana have the same grades as nonusers. Among high school students, heavy use is associated with school failure, but school failure usually comes first.

MYTH: MARIJUANA IMPAIRS MEMORY AND COGNITION. Under the influence of marijuana, people are unable to think rationally and intelligently. Chronic marijuana use causes permanent mental impairment.

FACT: Marijuana produces immediate, temporary changes in thoughts, perceptions, and information processing. The cognitive process most clearly affected by marijuana is short-term memory. In laboratory studies, subjects under the influence of marijuana have no trouble remembering things they learned previously. However, they display diminished capacity to learn and recall new information. This diminishment only lasts for the duration of the intoxication. There is no convincing evidence that heavy long-term marijuana use permanently impairs memory or other cognitive functions.

MYTH: MARIJUANA CAN CAUSE PERMANENT MENTAL ILLNESS. Among adolescents, even occasional marijuana use may cause psychological damage. During intoxication, marijuana users become irrational and often behave erratically.

FACT: There is no convincing scientific evidence that marijuana causes psychological damage or mental illness in either teenagers or adults. Some marijuana users experience psychological distress following marijuana ingestion, which may include feelings of panic, anxiety, and paranoia. Such experiences can be frightening, but the effects are temporary. With very large doses, marijuana can cause temporary toxic psychosis. This occurs rarely, and almost always when marijuana is eaten rather than smoked. Marijuana does not cause profound changes in people's behavior.

MYTH: MARIJUANA CAUSES CRIME. Marijuana users commit more property offenses than nonusers. Under the influence of marijuana, people become irrational, aggressive, and violent.

FACT: Every serious scholar and government commission examining the relationship between marijuana use and crime has reached the same conclusion: marijuana does not cause crime. The vast majority of marijuana users do not commit crimes other than the crime of possessing marijuana. Among marijuana users who do commit crimes, marijuana plays no causal role. Almost all human and animal studies show that marijuana decreases rather than increases aggression.

MYTH: MARIJUANA INTERFERES WITH MALE AND FEMALE SEX HORMONES. In both men and women, marijuana can cause infertility. Marijuana retards sexual development in adolescents. It produces feminine characteristics in males and masculine characteristics in females.

FACT: There is no evidence that marijuana causes infertility in men or women. In animal studies, high doses of THC diminish the production of some sex hormones and can impair reproduction. However, most studies of humans have found that marijuana has no impact of sex hormones. In those studies showing an impact, it is modest, temporary, and of no apparent consequence for reproduction. There is no scientific evidence that marijuana delays adolescent sexual development, has feminizing effect on males, or a masculinizing effect on females.

MYTH: MARIJUANA USE DURING PREGNANCY DAMAGES THE FETUS. Prenatal marijuana exposure causes birth defects in babies, and, as they grow older, developmental problems. The health and well being of the next generation is threatened by marijuana use by pregnant women.

FACT: Studies of newborns, infants, and children show no consistent physical, developmental, or cognitive deficits related to prenatal marijuana exposure. Marijuana had no reliable impact on birth size, length of gestation, neurological development, or the occurrence of physical abnormalities. The administration of hundreds of tests to older children has revealed only minor differences between offspring of marijuana users and nonusers, and some are positive rather than negative. Two unconfirmed case-control studies identified prenatal marijuana exposure as one of many factors statistically associated with childhood cancer. Given other available evidence, it is highly unlikely that marijuana causes cancer in children.

MYTH: MARIJUANA USE IMPAIRS THE IMMUNE SYSTEM. Marijuana users are at increased risk of infection, including HIV. AIDS patients are particularly vulnerable to marijuana's immunopathic effects because their immune systems are already suppressed.

FACT: There is no evidence that marijuana users are more susceptible to infections than nonusers. Nor is there evidence that marijuana lowers users' resistance to sexually transmitted diseases. Early studies which showed decreased immune function in cells taken from marijuana users have since been disproved. Animals given extremely large doses of THC and exposed to a virus have higher rates of infection. Such studies have little relevance to humans. Even among people with existing immune disorders, such as AIDS, marijuana use appears to be relatively safe. However, the recent finding of an association between tobacco smoking and lung infection in AIDS patients warrants further research into possible harm from marijuana smoking in immune suppressed persons.

MYTH: MARIJUANA IS MORE DAMAGING TO THE LUNGS THAN TOBACCO. Marijuana smokers are at a high risk of developing lung cancer, bronchitis, and emphysema.

FACT: Moderate smoking of marijuana appears to pose minimal danger to the lungs. Like tobacco smoke, marijuana smoke contains a number of irritants and carcinogens. But marijuana users typically smoke much less often than tobacco smokers, and over time, inhale much less smoke. As a result, the risk of serious lung damage should be lower in marijuana smokers. There have been no reports of lung cancer related solely to marijuana. However, because researchers have found precancerous changes in cells taken from the lungs of heavy marijuana smokers, the possibility of lung cancer from marijuana cannot be ruled out. Unlike heavy tobacco smokers, heavy marijuana smokers exhibit no obstruction of the lung's small airway. That indicates that people will not develop emphysema from smoking marijuana.

MYTH: MARIJUANA'S ACTIVE INGREDIENT, THC, GETS TRAPPED IN BODY FAT. Because THC is released from fat cells slowly, psychoactive effects may last for days or weeks following use. THC's long persistence in the body damages organs that are high in fat content, the brain in particular.

FACT: Many active drugs enter the body's fat cells. What is different (but not unique) about THC is that it exits fat cells slowly. As a result, traces of marijuana can be found in the body for days or weeks following ingestion. However, within a few hours of smoking marijuana, the amount of THC in the brain falls below the concentration required for detectable psychoactivity. The fat cells in which THC lingers are not harmed by the drug's presence, nor is the brain or other organs. The most important consequence of marijuana's slow excretion is that it can be detected in blood, urine, and tissue long after it is used, and long after its psychoactivity has ended.

MYTH: MARIJUANA USE IS A MAJOR CAUSE OF HIGHWAY ACCIDENTS. Like alcohol, marijuana impairs psychomotor function and decreases driving ability. If marijuana use increases, an increase in of traffic fatalities is inevitable.

FACT: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

MYTH: MARIJUANA RELATED HOSPITAL EMERGENCIES ARE INCREASING, PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUTH. This is evidence that marijuana is much more harmful than most people previously believed.

FACT: Marijuana does not cause overdose deaths. The number of people in hospital emergency rooms who say they have used marijuana has increased. On this basis, the visit may be recorded as marijuana-related even if marijuana had nothing to do with the medical condition preceding the hospital visit. Many more teenagers use marijuana than use drugs such as heroin and cocaine. As a result, when teenagers visit hospital emergency rooms, they report marijuana much more frequently than they report heroin and cocaine. In the large majority of cases when marijuana is mentioned, other drugs are mentioned as well. In 1994, fewer than 2% of drug related emergency room visits involved the use of marijuana.

MYTH: MARIJUANA IS MORE POTENT TODAY THAN IN THE PAST. Adults who used marijuana in the 1960s and 1970s fail to realize that when today's youth use marijuana they are using a much more dangerous drug.

FACT: When today's youth use marijuana, they are using the same drug used by youth in the 1960s and 1970s. A small number of low-THC sample sized by the Drug Enforcement Administration are used to calculate a dramatic increase in potency. However, these samples were not representative of the marijuana generally available to users during this era. Potency data from the early 1980s to the present are more reliable, and they show no increase in the average THC content of marijuana. Even if marijuana potency were to increase, it would not necessarily make the drug more dangerous. Marijuana that varies quite substantially in potency produces similar psychoactive effects.

MYTH: MARIJUANA USE CAN BE PREVENTED. Drug education and prevention programs reduced marijuana use during the 1980s. Since then, our commitment has slackened, and marijuana use has been rising. By expanding and intensifying current anti-marijuana messages, we can stop youthful experimentation.

FACT: There is no evidence that anti-drug messages diminish young people's interest in drugs. Anti-drug campaigns in the schools and the media may even make drugs more attractive. Marijuana use among youth declined throughout the 1980s, and began increasing in the 1990s. This increase occurred despite young people's exposure to the most massive anti-marijuana campaign in American history. In a number of other countries, drug education programs are based on a "harm reduction" model, which seeks to reduce the drug-related harm among those young people who do experiment with drugs.

[draggerman11]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

That's just so terribly wrong.

Yes, it is. But it is beside the point that liberalism, in its current form, does not stand for personal responsibility and freedom.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by draggerman11

Yes, it is. But it is beside the point that liberalism, in its current form, does not stand for personal responsibility and freedom.

The wrongly applied American use of the term, yes. Liberalism (the true form) is nothing of the sort you imply it is.

[draggerman11]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The wrongly applied American use of the term, yes. Liberalism (the true form) is nothing of the sort you imply it is.

As in, classical liberalism, along the lines of Locke? If so, I agree wholeheartedly. In that sense I am a liberal.

[jamil5454]

Originally Posted by Kevin

A bunch of stuff from www.drugpolicy.org

Doing research about a topic is commendable, but not from this website. They haven't done any studies themsevles, but basically just sum up what other people are saying. Notice how they have absolutely no numbers or statistics in the facts.

People's ideas and opinions will always change. Science, Math, Nature don't.

Alcohol can be dangerous, not only to yourself, but to others. Marijuana may not directly hurt others, but all things factored in, it's every bit as dangerous to yourself as alcohol. Just as long as pot smokers know that marijuana isn't this "harmless" drug, I have no problem with it.

Any change to your state of mind comes at a price. There's no "free" drug.

[Kevin]

Oh I am NOT advocating pot. I am not saying pot isn't harmful.

I am saying alcohol is worse. And it is. And not pot is not every bit as dangerous as alcohol. No one is admitted into a ER because they have smoked too much pot. Or died because of such a thing.

Can't say the same thing about alcohol.

That makes alcohol A LOT more dangerous.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No one is admitted into a ER because they have smoked too much pot. Or died because of such a thing.

Considering that smoking pot increases your risk of cardiac arrest by a factor of four (in the hour after smoking), and that smoking pot regularly increases your risk of getting lung cancer I'd rephrase that statement.

Totally agree about the dangers of alcohol abuse of course. But pot isn't harmless, smoking pot is a serious health risk.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Considering that smoking pot increases your risk of cardiac arrest by a factor of four (in the hour after smoking), and that smoking pot regularly increases your risk of getting lung cancer I'd rephrase that statement.

Totally agree about the dangers of alcohol abuse of course. But pot isn't harmless, smoking pot is a serious health risk.

I wont disagree with you there Mas. I would never tell anyone that they should pick up the habit. Most ANY drug legal or non legal isn't harmless.

Those that are saying pot however is more dangerous than alcohol are just simply wrong.

That isn't advocating pot, or saying pot is harmless.

And those of you that think pot isn't addictive, is wrong too.

It's both psych and physically addictive. THC however stores in your fat cells so the "withdrawal" from it is less harsh.

Smoke pot every day for a year, then stop. Tell me it's not addictive.

You aren't going to have the withdrawal you'd have from say opiates, or alcohol (which is far far worse) but there will be a withdrawal.

It might very well depend on ones metabolism as to how fast the THC breaks down.

I am not sure.

Pot like many other drugs, are just tokens.

What I find about active pot users is, once the habit starts, they can't have "fun" without it.

Pot has to be involved with everything they do.

Drugs cause you to gain a "tolerance" to every day life. Once you start using drugs, normal things that used to amuse you or make you happy don't work anymore. Drugs make you feel EVEN BETTER, and they are EXCITING!

I just called up a friend not too long ago to go see a movie.

It went something like this

<Me> Wanna go see a movie
<Him> Got any pot?
<Me> You know I quit...
<Him> Then no. movies are boring unless I am stoned.

I remember feeling like that when I was a stoner.

Didn't want to do anything unless pot was involved.

The thing is, you don't begin to realize this till a month after you stop smoking.

You suddenly feel you've gained some sort of SUPER intelligence.

Having said that, I have SMOKED pot since I quit. And I feel like a dumbass every time I do it

I don't want you to think I am on some high horse.

[ghporter]

Well said, Kevin.

I get the feeling that my statements about drugs came across as saying ALL drugs except alcohol are inherently bad. Not at all. I want to express that overindulging in anything is inherently bad, and that indulging in something that you can't guarantee the purity or quality of is bad by itself. If there was a source of unaltered, organic pot, I would simply argue that overindulging in it was not a good idea. Since there are few such sources (outside private gardens) then I say it's a bad idea to trust anyone else to safely produce what you want to smoke.

And I'm a caffiene adict. Absolutely. If I sleep in too late and don't get my coffee early enough, I feel rotten and headachy all day. That's withdrawal. Do I overindulge? Considering the definition of addiction, probably; I have a good-sized cup of regular coffee in the morning with breakfast, and a second one later in the morning. But I KNOW that the coffee I drink has a consistent level of caffiene, that it's safe and pure, and that it's not going to have unexpected side effects. I'm not being hollier than thou, just expressing my own experience and attitudes. I do not trust ANY illegal drug to be safe enough to use, period.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Considering that smoking pot increases your risk of cardiac arrest by a factor of four (in the hour after smoking), and that smoking pot regularly increases your risk of getting lung cancer I'd rephrase that statement.

Totally agree about the dangers of alcohol abuse of course. But pot isn't harmless, smoking pot is a serious health risk.

Seems like he just doesn't understand the articles I posted earlier. Probably too many "big" words used in the articles. Like the following:

"Smoking marijuana is a rare trigger of acute myocardial infarction and ventricular tachycardia and fibrillation by inducing coronary artery spasm"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum

[Doofy]

Hmmm... Interesting how this thread has gone from the basics of liberty to a bunch of deadheads droning on about how cannabis ain't bad for you. Which is sort of proof in itself that it's bad for you, since it'll make you go on and on and on and on about things...

Now, have we established where in the World I should move to if I want six wives*, a couple of M16A2s, no tax and the ability to drink beer if I want to?

(* not Biblically incorrect, so don't go there)

[itistoday]

von Wrangell, you are a joke. You have no credibility in my mind, you make wild, unsubstantiated conclusions that have absolutely no research behind them, you ignore blatant facts and statistics that I have posted that clearly show smoking marijuana will not give you cancer anymore than eating at McDonald's will.

But the reason for my post today is not to point out your obvious stupidity, nor is it to point out the stupidity of others in this thread.

Nah, I just saw a rather interesting article on the economist that I'd like to share with some of you:

http://www.economist.com/science/dis...ory_id=6849915

IF CANNABIS were unknown, and bioprospectors were suddenly to find it in some remote mountain crevice, its discovery would no doubt be hailed as a medical breakthrough. Scientists would praise its potential for treating everything from pain to cancer, and marvel at its rich pharmacopoeia—many of whose chemicals mimic vital molecules in the human body. In reality, cannabis has been with humanity for thousands of years and is considered by many governments (notably America's) to be a dangerous drug without utility. Any suggestion that the plant might be medically useful is politically controversial, whatever the science says. It is in this context that, on April 20th, America's Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued a statement saying that smoked marijuana has no accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.

continued in article

What should be obvious, however, is that it doesn't matter how healthy or how bad marijuana and other drugs are. That doesn't give the government any more right to make them illegal. The United States government is full of bigots and fools; ignorant monsters that destroy lives without realizing it, all in the name of their twisted, blighted sense of "justice". They don't know the first thing about justice.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by itistoday

I'm reluctant to go to Amsterdam because it seems too much like a party-city and not a good place to raise kids.

Apparently raising children around consistent drug use isn't detrimental to their upbringing.

[Jawbone54]

double your postage

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Apparently raising children around consistent drug use isn't detrimental to their upbringing.

Hey genius, how about using your brain before jumping to conclusions. Oh, reading the thread would help also.