[zwiebel_]

It is pretty frustrating to see how the American car manufacturers have been dragging their feet on the issue of bigger cars. Instead of spending all the money on lobbyists in DC, they should have put that money into R&D.
On the other hand, European car manufacturers are also to blame here. I've been waiting for years for any Euro car maker to bring their smaller cars to the States - and that was way before high gas prices. Mercedes A-Class, Smart - four seater (WTF am I going to do with two seats?), VW Sharan (7 seats @182 inches lenght!), etc. Their explanation: no demand for small cars.

[Eug]

As you mentioned, one big claimed reason why foreign makers emphasized larger vehicles (or smaller cars with bigger engines) to a certain extent in the US was because that's what the US consumers preferred... until gas prices starting spiking.

I think that is perfectly believable. Why do you doubt that? Even the original Prius was made with a noticeably bigger engine in North America.

[design219]

I pass a few used car lots on the way home from work. They are full of SUVs and trucks. Not much in the way of small cars left right now.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Eug 

As you mentioned, one big claimed reason why foreign makers emphasized larger vehicles (or smaller cars with bigger engines) to a certain extent in the US was because that's what the US consumers preferred... until gas prices starting spiking.

I think that is perfectly believable. Why do you doubt that? Even the original Prius was made with a noticeably bigger engine in North America.

Let's be honest, it was a political shell game. When the federal government allows people to deduct the value of an Hummer from their taxes because it's an over-sized work vehicle, there's no question that people will buy it -- it ends up being less expensive in the long run.

Americans have been screwed in the car and fuel departments. That's a sad, honest fact.

I think I'm going to go for a drive ... or do some drag racing ...

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Americans have been screwed in the car and fuel departments. That's a sad, honest fact.

Americans have enjoyed decades of cheap fuel and affordable cars of all shapes and sizes.

Screwed that is not.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Let's be honest, it was a political shell game. When the federal government allows people to deduct the value of an Hummer from their taxes because it's an over-sized work vehicle, there's no question that people will buy it -- it ends up being less expensive in the long run.

Actually, a Hummer was basically never less expensive in the long run, compared to a small car. It just was not as expensive as it could have been.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

So maybe a good study would be Civic mpg for the entire life-time that it was Honda's smallest car?

Here's what I don't understand: My mom bought a Honda CRX new in 1986 (maybe 85, but I think it was 86), and this vehicle with a gas engine got better gas milage than the Prius hybrid gets now, 20+ years later. So how is that a 20 year old car gets better gas milage than the technological wonders that are produced today?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

Americans have enjoyed decades of cheap fuel and affordable cars of all shapes and sizes.

Screwed that is not.

Actually, that is screwed. Detroit and Big Oil have held back advances in car technologies. Only those corporations are served by such short sighted thinking.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Actually, a Hummer was basically never less expensive in the long run, compared to a small car. It just was not as expensive as it could have been.

If you can take a one time tax deduction for the cost of the vehicle it does come out to be cheaper.

[design219]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

So how is that a 20 year old car gets better gas milage than the technological wonders that are produced today?

Are you talking about the rated milage, or what you actually experienced?

A couple years ago the government changed the way milage is rated on new cars to more accurately reflect the way people really drive. The mpg dropped on all new cars.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Here's what I don't understand: My mom bought a Honda CRX new in 1986 (maybe 85, but I think it was 86), and this vehicle with a gas engine got better gas milage than the Prius hybrid gets now, 20+ years later. So how is that a 20 year old car gets better gas milage than the technological wonders that are produced today?

As was mentioned before, the testing method for gas mileage has changed.

However, what also should be noted is the CRX is a small subcompact and the Prius is a mid-size. I've moved a church pew over 5-feet long in the Prius. I also moved a door complete with the frame in the Prius.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Eug 

As was mentioned before, the testing method for gas mileage has changed.

However, what also should be noted is the CRX is a small subcompact and the Prius is a mid-size. I've moved a church pew over 5-feet long in the Prius. I also moved a door complete with the frame in the Prius.

Stealing a church a piece at a time?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Stealing a church a piece at a time?

Sorta. A local carpenter buys up old church pews and shortens them for whomever wants to buy them.
I had one sized for my dining room table.

[SirCastor]

I expect that there's going to be a Flood of SUVs on the used car market in the next few years. I'm glad to see the whales go, I remember driving home one day from work and finding myself stopped at a light, I could not see one vehicle from where I sat that was not an SUV or a truck.

They worry me because the drivers are on their phones, not paying attention.
I'm sorry to hear GM shutting down plants, but not too sorry. They had a dang good electric they could've sold. Every car company had an electric...

Okay, here's what really bugs me. Hybrid SUVs. I recall that Prius' in general are only better for the environment. No money saved, no gas saved. A Hybrid SUV is not going to do anything but give it's owner a false sense of environmental responsibility.

Sooner or later we Americans are going to have to realize that a compact car is not a bad car, and you probably only drive 15 miles to or from work. You don't need a 300 mile range.

[Paco500]

This is down to mindset. I have 2 kids (with friends and such) and in the states I had a Honda Odyssey and a Nissan Maxima. When we moved to the UK, we replaced them with a 3 Series BMW and a Citroen Pluriel (small 2 door convertible- worst car ever made BTW, but my wife has a bizarre attachment to it). Both much smaller cars and we do fine. We have even taken a two week driving holiday across France in the BMW- just add the roof box.

Add to that that over here you can get quite a few seven seater cars with 1.8L engines. And there are large mid-sized saloons (sedans) and estates (station wagons) with even smaller engines.

You can fit in a smaller car and larger cars can be made with more efficient engines. Americans just don't.

Originally Posted by IonCable 

SUVs and MiniVans are far from dead. I have a dang Town & Country, gets crap gas mileage. I can't get rid of it...why? Well, like all families I have to cart around my 2 Kids and sometimes their friends. Try getting 3 car seats or booster (required by law) into anything smaller than a mid-sized sedan. Air bags make the front seat a non option for kids under 12. That basically gives me 2 seats. Now child safety laws are good, but they do make it hard for a family to have good MPG car.

I know a heck of a lot parents that would love to have smaller cars, but can't.

[Eug]

$5 per gallon!

As of this weekend, prices have surpassed key $1.321 per litre price point here in Toronto. In fact, it hit $1.36.
(1 US gallon = 3.7854118 L)

[art_director]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

I expect that there's going to be a Flood of SUVs on the used car market in the next few years. I'm glad to see the whales go, I remember driving home one day from work and finding myself stopped at a light, I could not see one vehicle from where I sat that was not an SUV or a truck.

It's already begun here in MN. This is a big SUV state. All used car lots are overflowing with those monuments to waste.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Eug 

$5 per gallon!

As of this weekend, prices have surpassed key $1.321 per litre price point here in Toronto. In fact, it hit $1.36.
(1 US gallon = 3.7854118 L)

Your conversion made me laugh out loud. Recently I made a bet with someone that we could ask five Americans the approximate conversion of 1 US gallon into litres and not one would be in the ballpark (we gave them slack calling the ballpark anything from 2.5 L to 3.5 L). After we churned through five people without even coming close we opened it to 15 people. Not one person could answer the question correctly.

[design219]

Originally Posted by art_director 

not one would be in the ballpark

That is a little surprising since the one metric measure that is actually common in the US is the two litre soda bottle. I would think people could visualize fairly closely the ratio between that bottle and a one gallon milk jug, another common size people deal with.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by IonCable 

SUVs and MiniVans are far from dead. I have a dang Town & Country, gets crap gas mileage. I can't get rid of it...why? Well, like all families I have to cart around my 2 Kids and sometimes their friends. Try getting 3 car seats or booster (required by law) into anything smaller than a mid-sized sedan. Air bags make the front seat a non option for kids under 12. That basically gives me 2 seats. Now child safety laws are good, but they do make it hard for a family to have good MPG car.

I know a heck of a lot parents that would love to have smaller cars, but can't.

This doesn't even begin to take into account those who coach a sport and are lugging around a bunch of equipment, or those who live on acreages in need of maintenance and clearing, garage saling, etc... In a society so bent on choice, why does the choice to have a large vehicle bother so many? Is driving around a smaller vehicle, making multiple trips, loaded down with roof racks about as aerodynamic as a brick wall, etc... really saving that much gas? Are the folks quick to indict you for your SUV really better stewards of their environment than you?

I doubt it.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by design219 

That is a little surprising since the one metric measure that is actually common in the US is the two litre soda bottle. I would think people could visualize fairly closely the ratio between that bottle and a one gallon milk jug, another common size people deal with.

You would think ... would be interested in hearing reports from others who try the same experiment.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

This doesn't even begin to take into account those who coach a sport and are lugging around a bunch of equipment, or those who live on acreages in need of maintenance and clearing, garage saling, etc... In a society so bent on choice, why does the choice to have a large vehicle bother so many? Is driving around a smaller vehicle, making multiple trips, loaded down with roof racks about as aerodynamic as a brick wall, etc... really saving that much gas? Are the folks quick to indict you for your SUV really better stewards of their environment than you?

I doubt it.

This post has me howling. It's a stereotypical, inaccurate and incomplete analysis of the car vs. SUV driver.

I'm a case study that proves this argument to be moot. I have the big yard, the boat, the need to haul and transport things regularly ... do I act as you suggest and make several trips? No, only a moron would do that. Day to day I drive a sedan that gets very good gas mileage and, when needed, I either rent or borrow a truck for other needs. Sure, it would be more convenient to own a truck but it also be more wasteful. That's the reason I choose to accept the inconvenience and conserve.

Most of my neighbors subscribe to your approach. One by one they're changing their ways and abandoning that short-sighted view. The trucks are being replaced by cars as I laugh.

[art_director]

Before anyone uses the snow argument ... I live in Minnesota. We get a lot of snow. I've driven a sedan since 1992 and have yet to get stuck or run off the road. By contrast I see several SUVs and trucks in the ditch every time we get a snow storm. The reason? A simple lack of common sense. Many SUV drivers, in particular, drive as though they're in cars. They think four wheel drive when drive will help them in a spin. Blah. Four wheel drive helps you get going, when it comes to stopping it's worth diddly (no offense to the recently deceased).

[Eug]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Your conversion made me laugh out loud. Recently I made a bet with someone that we could ask five Americans the approximate conversion of 1 US gallon into litres and not one would be in the ballpark (we gave them slack calling the ballpark anything from 2.5 L to 3.5 L). After we churned through five people without even coming close we opened it to 15 people. Not one person could answer the question correctly.

So you wouldn't have accepted 4.5L? That's closer than 2.5L, and it's actually how many litres there are in an Imperial gallon.

Anyways, I'm a bit surprised at the result of your experiment, since 1 quart ~ 1 L roughly.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So you wouldn't have accepted 4.5L? That's closer than 2.5L, and it's actually how many litres there are in an Imperial gallon.

Anyways, I'm a bit surprised at the result of your experiment, since 1 quart ~ 1 L roughly.

I found it to be shocking that Americans are so clueless. But then look at who this country seated as President. Twice.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

What kind of cars are they going to put in rap videos then?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

It will be interesting to see what ugly, inefficient, unsafe and stupidly named replacements will be offered. Maybe thye'll call it "The Speck"???
Haul 3 people and 50 pounds of groceries etc. Runs on McDonalds fry grease! Windshield wipers optional.

YouTube - In a Yugo -(In the Ghetto)
The Muscle Car was supposed be dead as well.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by art_director 

This post has me howling. It's a stereotypical, inaccurate and incomplete analysis of the car vs. SUV driver.

There are some stereotypes I didn't include assuming someone would pop in to show the ones I forgot. Congratulations, you're our first caller.

I'm a case study that proves this argument to be moot. I have the big yard, the boat, the need to haul and transport things regularly ... do I act as you suggest and make several trips? No, only a moron would do that. Day to day I drive a sedan that gets very good gas mileage and, when needed, I either rent or borrow a truck for other needs.

C'mon, I'm sure this is more "rent" than borrow. I'd be sick of you popping over to borrow my truck so you can haul your boat out wasting countless gallons of fuel for your afternoon of fun. I'd rather you put the boat up and drive a friggin' SUV.

Sure, it would be more convenient to own a truck but it also be more wasteful. That's the reason I choose to accept the inconvenience and conserve.

So... you're fortunate enough to have resources to fund multiple options. Many do not. What then? Sell their SUVs at a loss now so you can sleep better at night? I doubt it. Not to mention the fact that since you're both driving your sedan, renting and borrowing trucks, and cruising around in your boat, you're not contributing any less to the problem anyway right? I wouldn't be howling about squat if I were you.

Most of my neighbors subscribe to your approach. One by one they're changing their ways and abandoning that short-sighted view. The trucks are being replaced by cars as I laugh.

I wonder if some of them are tired of seeing you at their door asking for the keys to their trucks. This is common place. The guy with the Toyota Prius needs to move, what does he do? Ask the guy he's been giving shxx to if he can borrow his pick-up. I love it. Your vehicle of choice is freedom. Freedom to drive whatever the hell you want, including a boat that is spending gas for... commute? I'm guessing no. Hauling? I'm guessing no. Fun? Yeah, you're a real stalwart of environmental responsibility.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

C'mon, I'm sure this is more "rent" than borrow. I'd be sick of you popping over to borrow my truck so you can haul your boat out wasting countless gallons of fuel for your afternoon of fun. I'd rather you put the boat up and drive a friggin' SUV.

Actually it's more borrow than rent. Nice try. Where did I say the boat was gas-powered? Also, please point to where I said the boat went in the water for an afternoon. Since you lack the presence of mind to ask, the boat is dropped in the water in the spring and taken out in the fall. IOW, a truck is needed twice a year for that job.

Stop with the venom and start thinking, ebuddy.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

So... you're fortunate enough to have resources to fund multiple options. Many do not. What then? Sell their SUVs at a loss now so you can sleep better at night? I doubt it. Not to mention the fact that since you're both driving your sedan, renting and borrowing trucks, and cruising around in your boat, you're not contributing any less to the problem anyway right? I wouldn't be howling about squat if I were you.

You assume much and know little about my situation. Typical American lack of understanding and insight. Congratulations.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I wonder if some of them are tired of seeing you at their door asking for the keys to their trucks. This is common place. The guy with the Toyota Prius needs to move, what does he do? Ask the guy he's been giving shxx to if he can borrow his pick-up. I love it. Your vehicle of choice is freedom. Freedom to drive whatever the hell you want, including a boat that is spending gas for... commute? I'm guessing no. Hauling? I'm guessing no. Fun? Yeah, you're a real stalwart of environmental responsibility.

This post is laughable. Again making assumptions and passing them as fact.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

What kind of cars are they going to put in rap videos then?

Smart cars. Drive it to where you're going then ear it around your neck. I see a fashion statement in the making.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Actually, that is screwed. Detroit and Big Oil have held back advances in car technologies.

That makes for a good story, but it's not reality. Explain the rest of the world's automakers that aren't in "Detroit" and where gas prices have been sky-high for a while. How do they fit into your screenplay?

Toyota's spent billions on R&D of alternate technologies over many years, and just now are practical, alternate technologies becoming practical. If these technologies were practical a decade or two ago, it's naive to think that profit-driven companies would not have grabbed onto them and delivered them to market.

Fact is, automakers are responsible to their stockholders, not "Big Oil". Practicality, feasibility, performance, and profitability are what really matter to automakers.

Same with alternate energy sources in general. If there was big money to be made in wind or solar decades ago, in a capitalist system such as ours, moguls would not have hesitated one bit to capitalize on that.

[besson3c]

Electric cars have always been practical for a particular demographic, why were they taken off the market in the 90s?

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Electric cars have always been practical for a particular demographic, why were they taken off the market in the 90s?

I'm going to place my bets on not being able to take a charge fast enough.

Say what you want about gasoline, but it's portable and has a high energy density.

[besson3c]

Yeah, but for tons of people living in urban areas, the charge would sustain them for the day until they got home to do an overnight charge...

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yeah, but for tons of people living in urban areas, the charge would sustain them for the day until they got home to do an overnight charge...

Except when it doesn't.

When that happens you are royally ****ed, unless you can a) find a place to plug it in, and b) wait for 2 hours while you get enough juice to get home. Better wait long enough, or you repeat the same process all over again.

If you misjudge with gasoline, you're out five minutes at the pump, or in a worst case scenario, you or someone else needs to put 20 more miles in a bucket, hump it over, and pour it in. Try that with a turbine from your local power company. Note that this isn't just the energy density of the fuel, it's also the bajillion dollars that have been sunk into infrastructure to provide it.

This demographic you speak of are urban people who can plan everything out beforehand and never have something unexpected come up.

[besson3c]

I don't think the risk is as great as you are making it out to be. It's not like an electric car will only give you an hour - there is plenty of padding to cover the average commute time many times over.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Actually it's more borrow than rent. Nice try.

... which explains why your neighbors are all getting rid of their trucks. Who wants you over all the time for hauling and trucking? They're probably thinking; "Get your own damned truck, I'm selling mine so I don't have to see him anymore. He only calls when he wants my truck anyway."

Where did I say the boat was gas-powered?

Polluter!

Also, please point to where I said the boat went in the water for an afternoon. Since you lack the presence of mind to ask, the boat is dropped in the water in the spring and taken out in the fall. IOW, a truck is needed twice a year for that job.

Like I said, put the gas-guzzling boat up before you start pointing fingers at those driving SUVs. It'd be better for the environment and the fish would thank you too.

Stop with the venom and start thinking, ebuddy.

I'm guessing you were offended by my little exposé on hypocrisy. This is unfortunate as I am profoundly thankful to you for your help. You stepped in it art_director, don't get all huffy with me tough guy.

You assume much and know little about my situation. Typical American lack of understanding and insight. Congratulations.

I've accused you of needing to employ a little introspect before judging someone else's lifestyle choices. It seems even more apparent now that you should. What does your xenophobia have to do with any of this?

This post is laughable. Again making assumptions and passing them as fact.

What's laughable is that while you never directly addressed my initial question; "Are the folks quick to indict you for your SUV really better stewards of their environment than you?"

You didn't need to.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't think the risk is as great as you are making it out to be. It's not like an electric car will only give you an hour - there is plenty of padding to cover the average commute time many times over.

Electric cars solves the SUV/gas issue, but does it solve the alternative energy issue?

I think everyone should do what I did and pick up a Specialized HR XC disc baby! 14 miles to work every day, good exercise, and saving dollars in the meantime. Fueled by the best alternative source of energy around... you.

[Eug]

Since the Prius has been mentioned again... This weekend in my Prius I moved a bunch of 8' long slabs of wood - 4x4, 1x4, and 1x2 slabs to fix my fence.

I also just bought an antique commercial weighscale, for use as a coffee table. Fit perfectly in that vehicle, along with an extra side table.




For the times I really do need a truck (once a year?), I'll rent it for $19.99/day from the U-Haul depot.

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm going to place my bets on not being able to take a charge fast enough.

That and the very limited range (and expense).

[peeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

Except when it doesn't....

This demographic you speak of are urban people who can plan everything out beforehand and never have something unexpected come up.

That's a lot of people - those who are unable to plan will pay for it in more and more expensive gas. Eventually, they'll learn to plan.

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

That's a lot of people - those who are unable to plan will pay for it in more and more expensive gas. Eventually, they'll learn to plan.

Gas wasn't particularly expensive back in the 90's.

Isn't the question why they were pulled back then?

[Eug]

The limitations of electric cars are very serious in 2008. If in the next 10 years I were to buy one, it'd probably be as a second car, and even then, only if it had a range of about 250 km or more. Having a range of <100 km pretty much makes it useless around here, esp. as a primary car.

The Volt looks interesting, but the pricing would have to be realistic. Maybe by 2018 it (or an offspring) will be priced right.

[besson3c]

100km? Where are you getting that Eug?

The EV1 in 1999 had a range of up to 240km, and the 2007 NanoSafe battery technology would allow you to charge the thing to 95% in about 10 minutes:

Electric car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[art_director]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

... which explains why your neighbors are all getting rid of their trucks. Who wants you over all the time for hauling and trucking? They're probably thinking; "Get your own damned truck, I'm selling mine so I don't have to see him anymore. He only calls when he wants my truck anyway."


Polluter!


Like I said, put the gas-guzzling boat up before you start pointing fingers at those driving SUVs. It'd be better for the environment and the fish would thank you too.


I'm guessing you were offended by my little exposé on hypocrisy. This is unfortunate as I am profoundly thankful to you for your help. You stepped in it art_director, don't get all huffy with me tough guy.


I've accused you of needing to employ a little introspect before judging someone else's lifestyle choices. It seems even more apparent now that you should. What does your xenophobia have to do with any of this?


What's laughable is that while you never directly addressed my initial question; "Are the folks quick to indict you for your SUV really better stewards of their environment than you?"

You didn't need to.

The thing I always love about your posts is that they're pointless drivel. If ignored they eventually go away ... like bad gas.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

100km? Where are you getting that Eug?

The EV1 in 1999 had a range of up to 240km, and the 2007 NanoSafe battery technology would allow you to charge the thing to 95% in about 10 minutes:

Electric car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) Not all electric car prototypes have long ranges. Some do, but some don't. And anyway, as I said before, I'd want 250+. (OK, 240 km would be good enough. )
2) Not all electric car prototypes use the latest available battery technologies.
3) Even if a car can use the latest available battery technology, that doesn't mean a remote site with regular 120 V (or even 240 V) power can charge it quickly.
4) Price is a huge consideration.

ie. I think there is promise, but it's not here yet in 2008 (unless you want to build your own custom car for $$$$$$). I applaud those for being the pioneers, but I'm not going to invest my money in it until it's practical. IMO, the Prius was the first practical advanced gen car available for a reasonable amount, so I bought one. Electric? There's nothing even close yet.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

1) Not all electric car prototypes have long ranges. Some do, but some don't. And anyway, as I said before, I'd want 250+. (OK, 240 km would be good enough. )
2) Not all electric car prototypes use the latest available battery technologies.
3) Even if a car can use the latest available battery technology, that doesn't mean a remote site with regular 120 V (or even 240 V) power can charge it quickly.
4) Price is a huge consideration.

ie. I think there is promise, but it's not here yet in 2008 (unless you want to build your own custom car for $$$$$$). I applaud those for being the pioneers, but I'm not going to invest my money in it until it's practical. IMO, the Prius was the first practical advanced gen car available for a reasonable amount, so I bought one. Electric? There's nothing even close yet.

Why are there not more electric cars today? I would say that big oil has something to do with it. Why were the EV1s literally destroyed? They were selling like crazy, the owners loved them, and they had great records. Where does this misinformation come from, such as the ideas you've shared here (not to single you out, I'm sure there are others who believe the same thing)? Who is responsible for propagating this?

The thing is, we had electric cars that could drive up to 240 km on a single charge *9 years ago*. Like the Wikipedia article said, there have been advances in technology that would improve this design. The EV1 was not a prototype, it was a car that people could actually buy in the 1990s in California and Arizona, available through Saturn dealers:

General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a shame that there have been no prototypes or serious research put into these designs since. I have a hard time believing that with some additional resources, many of these problems (including high cost) could be solved. Even today, there is plenty of evidence that there are people out there that are willing to pay a premium for a car like this (witness the Prius).

[OreoCookie]

GM (the Chevrolet Volt) will introduce a new electric car in 2010. Its batteries will only last 60-100 km (which is sufficient for commuting) and it has a gas engine which recharges the batteries if needed. The range is AFAIK around 400 km. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. If you run out of juice, just stop at the next gas station and fill her up.

This way, the cost (and weight) of batteries can be brought down to a reasonable level while still being fully electric when you commute.

What do you think about that?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why are there not more electric cars today? I would say that big oil has something to do with it. Why were the EV1s literally destroyed? They were selling like crazy

No they weren't.

the owners loved them, and they had great records.

Yes they did (more or less), but they'd better considering how much they cost GM.

Where does this misinformation come from

From the real world.

The thing is, we had electric cars that could drive up to 240 km on a single charge *9 years ago*.

Too bad it took all night to fully charge.

It is a shame that there have been no prototypes or serious research put into these designs since. I have a hard time believing that with some additional resources, many of these problems (including high cost) could be solved.

You can believe what you want, but some of us prefer to live in the real world. There has been research into this type of stuff for quite some time. However, research doesn't mean functional car produced for the masses.

Even today, there is plenty of evidence that there are people out there that are willing to pay a premium for a car like this (witness the Prius).

The Prius was only a few thousand dollars premium, which is why it sold. However, even then the only reason it was only a few thousand dollars premium was because Toyota sold it at a loss initially, and then sold it for basically break even price. However, the loss they incurred was small on a per unit vehicle. In contrast, GM itself said it realistically would NEVER make a profit on the EV1, which is why they killed it. It's no surprise Toyota took the more practical route of hybrids.

Personally, I put my money where my mouth is. I paid a few thousand premium for a superior technology that is at the same time practical. Did you spend a $50000 premium to buy an EV1?

P.S. When I got my 2001 Prius, the dealerships weren't really interested in selling it to me. One place said they'd order it for me, but would be just as happy if I ordered it somewhere else, because their profit margin from Toyota was miniscule on it. I ended up getting a dealer demo somewhere else for a bit of a discount. And the only reason they had the demo was because the dealership's owner thought it'd be interesting to try one out for a while.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

GM (the Chevrolet Volt) will introduce a new electric car in 2010. Its batteries will only last 60-100 km (which is sufficient for commuting) and it has a gas engine which recharges the batteries if needed. The range is AFAIK around 400 km. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. If you run out of juice, just stop at the next gas station and fill her up.

This way, the cost (and weight) of batteries can be brought down to a reasonable level while still being fully electric when you commute.

What do you think about that?

I don't know if you're addressing me or someone else, but I'll add my two cents. Personally, I think I it's a viable approach. The car is electric, but has the advantages of a hybrid in terms of range and no requirement for recharging. The question though is how well it is implemented. I'm not overly confident in GM as a company these days.

[OreoCookie]

Well, we'll have to wait. But I think it's a good, real-world approach. I hope other car manufacturers don't let this slip, only if this becomes main stream will this be a painfree and viable option. Imagine parking spaces with electricity meters … so you can recharge your car while working/shopping.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Well, we'll have to wait. But I think it's a good, real-world approach. I hope other car manufacturers don't let this slip, only if this becomes main stream will this be a painfree and viable option. Imagine parking spaces with electricity meters … so you can recharge your car while working/shopping.

Where I grew up (Saskatchewan), parking spaces often already had electrical outlets. Any guesses as to why? I think they've gotten rid of nearly all of them now though, as they had no meters, and electricity is expensive now.