[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

1. "Polls" do not represent "most" Americans. Where was the poll taken? Internet users only? Telephone? Who called them? Don't cite polls unless you can be specific about the particulars.
What's that old adage? "78% of statistics are made up on the spot."

Cody, all of the polls are saying the exact same thing, and there are many different polls. Go to PollingReport.com - Public Opinion Online to see for yourself.

2. Saddam was a dictator extraordinaire and a menace not only to his own people, but the entire Middle East. Do you honestly think that the U.S. went into Iraq without the blessing of most Middle Eastern countries? PUH-leeze.

I don't know what Middle Eastern countries supported our going in there. This is not what you said though, is it? Remember that part about the "ENTIRE WORLD"?

3. Yes, many countries sent troops. Japan, Australia, Great Britain, Spain, Italy, and many other countries sent troops to assist in the Iraq invasion. It was a worldwide effort. Surprised you don't remember that.

I'm more surprised that you don't remember how many countries were and still are against the war. I'm surprised that you are even attempting to twist this fact. Do you remember the coalition of the willing?

4. The "rest of the world is terribly upset with us?" WHO would that be? The Dixie Chicks? Susan Sarandon? The Democrats?

I'll leave this for somebody else to answer, I'm sorry that you have choosen to wrap yourself in the flag and ignore what is going on in the world. Really, I think you need to expand your reading selection and perhaps make some friends/pen pals or travel abroad or something. Obviously saying "the rest of the world" was an exageration used to add weight to my argument, but put it this way: Bush pissed away his nearly unanimous world wide support immediately after 9/11. As of now, it's quite easily as low as its been in decades.

5. Oh, come ON, besson3c (didn't forget the "3c" by the way). You have not had ONE THREAD in defense of the United States. Not one. I've got a great idea: I'll start a Paypal account and let's all chip in and buy besson3c a one-way ticket out of the United States. He HATES our country so much, let's help him move out! Seriously, knowing MacNStein, he'd pitch in $10,000 like he once offered someone else for the same reason.

Is this really what this is about? I bitch about Macs and I use them, I bitch about Linux and I use Linux, I bitch about my wife and I love her, I could criticize myself endlessly yet I'm still a decent guy, I criticize this administration and America and I live in the US now. It shouldn't come as a suprise that I also criticize Canada too. It's called not being content with mediocrity. I'm not happy to just wrap myself in the flag and say "gosh darn it, this country is THE BESSTTT!! Shut up anybody who wants to say something about this here best country that ever lived in the entire universe!"

Why is it that you call on allies to try to strengthen your arguments or find support? Are we in the third grade here? I replied to your post based on the merits of what you wrote. I don't care about Macinstien or Crazy Joe Forum User or anybody else in here thinks about your post. If they want to sway my opinion, they'll have to do so just like everybody else, I don't care who they are buddies with.

6. No, YOUR debate style needs work. Remember when you attacked me and called me names the other day?

I won't forget that - don't try to pretend that you're interested in being moderate and reasonable.

What names did I call you? I called your post somethng negative (don't remember what), I made assertions about your posting style and the perceptions I've gleaned from them. Why would I call you a name personally? I don't know you, only your internet personality.

The fact is that you hate the United States yet you live here and enjoy the privileges of being here. I'll say it again: MOVE OUT. Or, show us ONE THREAD where you state how proud you are of our country and it's benefits and privileges. ONE.

Wasn't it one of your own presidents that stated "dissent is the highest form of patriotism"? How UnAmerican is that??

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by voodoo

The forum has to be based somewhere. Are you trying to show insight here..? I'm not sure you want to go down that road. Your version of insight is like throwing sledgehammers in a porcelain shop.

Talk about cliches.

Originally Posted by voodoo

Wow. You're good! You noticed. What other countries speak this language of the USA. Why don't you go to the UK and ask them why they're so obsessed over the US, that they insist on talking their language?

Perhaps you're ignorant. Probably. Have you ever noticed that people from the UK don't quite communicate the same as people from the USA? You sir, are speaking the Americanized version of English.

Originally Posted by voodoo

Also, English (as the US language is called for some weird reason) is my fifth fluent language and yet, that's the only language you people understand here. That is perhaps the reason I'm speaking it here.. but I have four others that I call my own.

"You people"? How educated.

Originally Posted by voodoo

It's not like you dumbasses would understand criticism in another language than English (the language of the USA).. <sigh>

You do realize that a large minority speaks Spanish as well?

Originally Posted by voodoo

Post on forums, err I think I can say 'yes' with a considerable degree of certainty. Some even on forums based in the USA where people speak the language of the USA. Do you realize that if I didn't explicitly state from where I am, you'd probably think I was just some guy from the US. Isn't that sad.

No, post on forums discussing the USA. I think you protest a teeny weeny bit too much.

Look at your "location" field in your profile.

Originally Posted by voodoo

The US butted in and took my country to a war her people didn't want. We're not about to forgive that anytime soon nor apologists of that action. Your crap administration did a very bad thing to our nation.

Actually, your leaders which you elected did that. So, therefore, "her people" did want.

Originally Posted by voodoo

Maybe you're full of cliches as well. What is there supposedly past my obsession, something that I can't see. This is your chance of showing how much insight you have!

You are so blinded by your obsession that you can't even see your obsession.

Originally Posted by voodoo

No, not at all. I'd say you were very interested in Spain and rightfully so. It is a beautiful country! I'd also be impressed how well you speak Spanish, because Americans aren't really known for their linguistic skills.

Ahem: Spanish in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am as interested in Spain as I am Surinam and Italy. From an evangelism standpoint.

Originally Posted by voodoo

I'd be very interested to hear an outsider's view on Spain and Spanish citizens. That is very valuable, because the only thing that we are easily blinded to are the things we take for granted.

Luckily I don't judge the country based upon you.

Originally Posted by voodoo

So did I when I called you a.. well you know what I called you

V

You certainly like to call people names. I'll give you that.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by voodoo

They'd only seem vicious to people who belong to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists or Pentacostals.

V

Are you saying Dakar "belong(s) to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists[sic] or Pentacostals. "?!?!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Hey your editor is pretty good at catching misspellings.. however I think the 'popcorn fart' thing is far too local. It doesn't translate well and I guess if you don't eat a lot of popcorn, you'd never get it.

I should be speaking crow then. You seem to gobble that up pretty readily.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Are you saying Dakar "belong(s) to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists or Pentacostals. "?!?!

.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

They'd only seem vicious to people who belong to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists or Pentacostals.

V

Don't be shy, pick which one of the three it is.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Talk about cliches.

Yes, let's. There is no escaping them anyway. Analogies are overused and often incorrectly used. Especially when people talk about 'the old adage' when it isn't particularly old.

[QUOTE=Railroader]
Perhaps you're ignorant. Probably.

Probably not.

Originally Posted by Railroader

Have you ever noticed that people from the UK don't quite communicate the same as people from the USA?

I've noticed that people in the US are more dense than people in the UK. Does that count? If you're talking about the language, then yes. I have also noticed that people in the UK speak differently than most people in the US.

Originally Posted by Railroader

You sir, are speaking the Americanized version of English.

I know. I do that intentionally. I can also speak the standard English, should I so desire. However, for communication on this forum, which is dominated by very loud Americans, I figured that the American version would be easier for them to understand.

Originally Posted by Railroader

"You people"? How educated.

Do you take a course to get offended by anything. Or is this a natural talent.

Originally Posted by Railroader

You do realize that a large minority speaks Spanish as well?

Of course, but I also realize that you don't. Even though you have claimed to be of some hispanic origin.

Originally Posted by Railroader

No, post on forums discussing the USA. I think you protest a teeny weeny bit too much.

Oh I see. You think just because Americans never think about any other country, then that means it is strange if anyone else thinks of the US. Nice projection, but based on a weird reality. The fact is, in my part of the world, we are very concerned both with what happens in our own country and what happens in countries that can affect our country. Such as taking us to a war we don't want.

Originally Posted by Railroader

Look at your "location" field in your profile.

Yes, do you know, I wrote that? Those things are not automatic!

Originally Posted by Railroader

Actually, your leaders which you elected did that. So, therefore, "her people" did want.

Granted, this is true. We did dispose of that leader though ASAP (next elections), but that doesn't mean the Bush administration is off the hook as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Railroader

You are so blinded by your obsession that you can't even see your obsession.

My obsession is blinds my ability to see my obesession

Perhaps you should just quite with the psychology-babble. It clearly isn't you.

Originally Posted by Railroader

Ahem: Spanish in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am as interested in Spain as I am Surinam and Italy. From an evangelism standpoint.

I know abut the Spanish speakers in the US, but like true Americans, most of them are only fluent in one language. So they speak Spanish, but not English. Then there are people who speak English, but not Spanish. Yet both are major languages in the country they live in.

Also, I wouldn't worry about our religion. We're 99% Catholic in Spain. Always have been.

Originally Posted by Railroader

Luckily I don't judge the country based upon you.

Why is that lucky? If you did you'd be fantastically stupid. Fortunately for *you* I'd say, that you don't judge Spain upon me!

Originally Posted by Railroader

You certainly like to call people names. I'll give you that.

I call it like it is. As you said so eloquently: I call a duck a duck if it quacks.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Are you saying Dakar "belong(s) to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists[sic] or Pentacostals. "?!?!

If he's American, there is a 52% chance give or take. (according to the CIA world factbook)

V

[Cody Dawg]

Like I said at the beginning of this thread, Bill Clinton FREAKS out.

Apparently after his "interview" with Chris Wallace he started reaming his own people that had accompanied him to the interview - screaming at them to be more accurate.

I think the guy needs meds. No, not Viagra, like downers - Valium. Or lithium.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

I should be speaking crow then. You seem to gobble that up pretty readily.

I may have opened up Pandora's box here. Still, better than the essays. I'm noticing a quaint mid-western US vocabulary. Maybe you can build your act on it.



V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

If he's American, there is a 52% chance give or take. (according to the CIA world factbook)

V

Don't play the odds, play the player, yo.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Don't be shy, pick which one of the three it is.

Erm, if you're talking about Railroader's childish psychological projections, then I'm sorry do disappoint the two of you.

If I had wanted to indicate that you were part of any of those three cults, I'd have written:

"They'd only seem vicious to you Dakar who obviously belongs to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists or Pentacostals."

However, I was not suggesting any such thing. I was just explaining who would be most sensitive to such comments.

V

[saddino]

If GWB can FREAK OUT, then why can't Bill?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Like I said at the beginning of this thread, Bill Clinton FREAKS out.

Apparently after his "interview" with Chris Wallace he started reaming his own people that had accompanied him to the interview - screaming at them to be more accurate.

I think the guy needs meds. No, not Viagra, like downers - Valium. Or lithium.

Like has been established from the beginning of this thread: we don't care about your opinion on this matter. It is way too warped and the things you've said later in this thread begs the question: are you on any medication?

V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Erm, if you're talking about Railroader's childish psychological projections, then I'm sorry do disappoint the two of you.

If I had wanted to indicate that you were part of any of those three cults, I'd have written:

"They'd only seem vicious to you Dakar who obviously belongs to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists or Pentacostals."

However, I was not suggesting any such thing. I was just explaining who would be most sensitive to such comments.

V

Man, you people can split some serious hair around here.

So if some dude thinks somethings heavy and I say to him "Only weak people find that heavy" I'm not implying he's weak? Sure.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by voodoo

I may have opened up Pandora's box here. Still, better than the essays. I'm noticing a quaint mid-western US vocabulary. Maybe you can build your act on it.



V

NO! I will have the last word!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by saddino

If GWB can FREAK OUT, then why can't Bill?

Now that's heavy!

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Man, you people can split some serious hair around here.

So if some dude thinks somethings heavy and I say to him "Only weak people find that heavy" I'm not implying he's weak? Sure.

That's one very annoying thing, almost exclusively found when discussing things with Americans. You actually seem think that analogies are logic.

This is truly absurd. You take each example and take it apart on its own merits. Dragging up some lame-brained analogy and thinking that proves your point it just nuts!

What, do they teach you people this in school or what?? Analogies are not good tool in debates, unless one wants to skew the oponent's argument and then you've lost the respect. After you lose the respect, the argument is over.

Your analogy doesn't hold up and skews what I was saying. It may fit your reality better, but it isn't our reality. You were wondering if what I said wouldn't be considered offensive, I replied that it would probably only be perceived as offensive by certain cults.

Then you take it as if I indicated that you were part of such cults?! You know, I don't know and I don't care. I answered Railroader's absurd projection that statistically 52% of Americans are part of one of those cults.

Do I care if you are? No I don't.

V

[Cody Dawg]

voodoo:

If you don't care about what I say or said then why are you posting in this thread that *I* started?





Talk about "warped!"

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

voodoo:

If you don't care about what I say or said then why are you posting in this thread that *I* started?





Talk about "warped!"

Because the thread is no longer about whatever it was that you had in mind when you started it. That's why I'm still posting in this thread.

Then you come in and try to get us back on topic and we're having this nice conversation about something else entirely.

Feel free to join in Cody Dawg. This thread is now about semantics!

V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Your analogy doesn't hold up and skews what I was saying. It may fit your reality better, but it isn't our reality. You were wondering if what I said wouldn't be considered offensive, I replied that it would probably only be perceived as offensive by certain cults.

So the question is why should I care that certain cults would find it offensive? Why did you feel it necessary to share this?

[voodoo]

Alright, answer your questions I will..

Originally Posted by Dakar

So the question is why should I care that certain cults would find it offensive?

Why do people care about the feeling of others? They do, most of the time. Empathy, it is called.

Originally Posted by Dakar

Why did you feel it necessary to share this?

Share what? More precise in your questions you must be for answers to get.. mmmmm...

V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Alright, answer your questions I will..



Why do people care about the feeling of others? They do, most of the time. Empathy, it is called.


Share what? More precise in your questions you must be for answers to get.. mmmmm...

V

Voodoo, you must have shared that tidbit for a reason. So if it wasn't to imply I was a follower of one of the three denominations specified, what seemingly innocent reason was it?

[Cody Dawg]

Naw. I'll just start another thread about Bill Clinton.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Voodoo, you must have shared that tidbit for a reason. So if it wasn't to imply I was a follower of one of the three denominations specified, what seemingly innocent reason was it?

You seemed to think my posts were 'somewhat vicious'. Allow me to refresh your memory:

"For some reason I didn't notice you calling posters retards and the somewhat vicious tone to your posts till now."

I replied that people wouldn't find them vicious unless they belonged to one of the cults, wincing as they felt the stab of truth in their hearts.

In other words, don't worry about the seeming viciousness. It isn't vicious. Just true. The only people who care either way are the brainwashed, and surely you're not one of them?

V

[Cody Dawg]

Why don't you post in Spainish?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Why don't you post in Spainish?

Because then you people wouldn't understand me and start complaining "oooh this is an English speaking forum, oooooo who do you think you are, whaaaaaaa" etc etc

Of course.

V

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by voodoo

You seemed to think my posts were 'somewhat vicious'. Allow me to refresh your memory:

"For some reason I didn't notice you calling posters retards and the somewhat vicious tone to your posts till now."

I replied that people wouldn't find them vicious unless they belonged to one of the cults, wincing as they felt the stab of truth in their hearts.

I'll accept this.

Originally Posted by voodoo

In other words, don't worry about the seeming viciousness. It isn't vicious. Just true.

Helloooooo opinion.

Originally Posted by voodoo

The only people who care either way are the brainwashed, and surely you're not one of them?

Well, I can't be certain, but I didn't become an agnostic from mindlessly believing what I was told.

[Cody Dawg]

How do you know that we don't speak Spanish?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

How do you know that we don't speak Spanish?

The majority don't guaranteed.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

How do you know that we don't speak Spanish?

Vale tía, ¿entonces puedes explicar tú interesa asombrosa por la atención doy tú país? Y también ¿por que no entiendes nada de nada cuando intento explicar mis valores..?

No me importa lo que piensas, cuando no puedes pensar por tu mismo y mostrar un poco de respeto.

V

[marden]

Originally Posted by voodoo

They'd only seem vicious to people who belong to the cults of Evangelists, Babtists or Pentacostals.

V

Baptists. Pentecostals.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Yes, let's. There is no escaping them anyway. Analogies are overused and often incorrectly used. Especially when people talk about 'the old adage' when it isn't particularly old.

Probably not.

I've noticed that people in the US are more dense than people in the UK. Does that count? If you're talking about the language, then yes. I have also noticed that people in the UK speak differently than most people in the US.

I know. I do that intentionally. I can also speak the standard English, should I so desire. However, for communication on this forum, which is dominated by very loud Americans, I figured that the American version would be easier for them to understand.

Do you take a course to get offended by anything. Or is this a natural talent.

Of course, but I also realize that you don't. Even though you have claimed to be of some hispanic origin.

Oh I see. You think just because Americans never think about any other country, then that means it is strange if anyone else thinks of the US. Nice projection, but based on a weird reality. The fact is, in my part of the world, we are very concerned both with what happens in our own country and what happens in countries that can affect our country. Such as taking us to a war we don't want.

Yes, do you know, I wrote that? Those things are not automatic!

Granted, this is true. We did dispose of that leader though ASAP (next elections), but that doesn't mean the Bush administration is off the hook as far as I'm concerned.

My obsession is blinds my ability to see my obesession

Perhaps you should just quite with the psychology-babble. It clearly isn't you.

I know abut the Spanish speakers in the US, but like true Americans, most of them are only fluent in one language. So they speak Spanish, but not English. Then there are people who speak English, but not Spanish. Yet both are major languages in the country they live in.

Also, I wouldn't worry about our religion. We're 99% Catholic in Spain. Always have been.

Why is that lucky? If you did you'd be fantastically stupid. Fortunately for *you* I'd say, that you don't judge Spain upon me!

I call it like it is. As you said so eloquently: I call a duck a duck if it quacks.

V

My only reply is this: You're words prove my point to any intelligent individual on this forum.

As you were. Continue with the name calling.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

1. "Polls" do not represent "most" Americans. Where was the poll taken? Internet users only? Telephone? Who called them? Don't cite polls unless you can be specific about the particulars.
What's that old adage? "78% of statistics are made up on the spot."

You're right, it's much better to cite anecdotal evidence or generalizations like you did.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Vale tía, ¿entonces puedes explicar tú interesa asombrosa por la atención doy tú país? Y también ¿por que no entiendes nada de nada cuando intento explicar mis valores..?

No me importa lo que piensas, cuando no puedes pensar por tu mismo y mostrar un poco de respeto.

V

Admit it, you do care what we think.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Vale tía, �entonces puedes explicar tú interesa asombrosa por la atención doy tú país? Y también �por que no entiendes nada de nada cuando intento explicar mis valores..?

No me importa lo que piensas, cuando no puedes pensar por tu mismo y mostrar un poco de respeto.

V

Hey! Speak Amurkan!

And since when did Pentecostals become cultists? I've been a Pentecostal my entire life, and we're anything but a cult...trust me.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by marden

Baptists. Pentecostals.

Don't bother, he'll simply blame it on a typo as all of his seemingly "mistakes" are.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by marden

Baptists. Pentecostals.

Thanks for the correction

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Hey! Speak Amurkan!

And since when did Pentecostals become cultists? I've been a Pentecostal my entire life, and we're anything but a cult...trust me.

True, cult is not the correct terminology. They are a group of people who identify their own version of Christianity.

We call them heretics. There is no other word for it, and I acknowledge it holds a certain stigma. It is supposed to confer that the heretic churches deviate from the original teachings. That is all.

I trust your experience with Pentecostals, and I apologize to wrongfully calling them a cult. They are not.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Admit it, you do care what we think.

You no Spanish can reedy.

.. but no mee expecty that anywayee.



V

[Jawbone54]

Out of curiosity, I googled Alicante. Looks beautiful.

[marden]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Thanks for the correction

V

... ...

[Kevin]

Don't know if this has been posted, if it has I apologize.

Condi hands Clinton his lower oriface thingy

RICE BOILS OVER AT BUBBA By IAN BISHOP Post Correspondent - New York Post Online Edition: Seven

[Cody Dawg]

Hi Kevin:

Nice to see someone paying attention to the thread and not their personal diatribes.

That was a great article.

Thanks.

[itai195]

So did Condi freak out too?

[BlackGriffen]

Start another Clinton thread? It's been 6 years since the man has been Pres, Cody! Are you this obsessed because you never got the chance to smoke on his Johnson?

Or are you just remembering a simpler time when you could bash Clinton with the nation enjoying peace and prosperity? You know, before we had Republicans in control of all three branches of government with their endless war, rampant corruption, and singular ability to foul up anything they attempt?

[marden]

Originally Posted by BlackGriffen

Start another Clinton thread? It's been 6 years since the man has been Pres, Cody! Are you this obsessed because you never got the chance to smoke on his Johnson?

Or are you just remembering a simpler time when you could bash Clinton with the nation enjoying peace and prosperity? You know, before we had Republicans in control of all three branches of government with their endless war, rampant corruption, and singular ability to foul up anything they attempt?

I think your personal attack was waaay out of line. And if you haven't noticed, Slick Willie has THRUST himself back into the limelight and our lives by continuing his habit of lying and evading responsibility for his actions.

To better understand this might take several different threads, each one covering the different facets of his slickness.

I think you owe the lady an apology.

[Jawbone54]

Aaaaand Hillary comments, attempting to save Bill the humiliation of being exposed as a whining toddler...

Hillary on MSNBC

[besson3c]

In case you are late joining us, here is your summary so far, just to save you from having to read the earlier pages:

Republicans think Bill Clinton was freaking out during this interview, Democrats think he carried himself well, Abe said some crazy things in either this thread or another, Cody Dawg says some emotionally charged stuff, some partisan mud slinging took place, some articles were quoted, some emoticons were shared, and here we are!

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c

In case you are late joining us, here is your summary so far, just to save you from having to read the earlier pages:

Republicans think Bill Clinton was freaking out during this interview, Democrats think he carried himself well, Abe said some crazy things in either this thread or another, Cody Dawg says some emotionally charged stuff, some partisan mud slinging took place, some articles were quoted, some emoticons were shared, and here we are!

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/y...ue112901.shtml

Khobar Towers
"In June of 1996, it felt like an entire herd was converging on the White House," wrote Clinton aide George Stephanopoulos in his memoir, All Too Human. A herd of scandals, that is: In late May, independent counsel Kenneth Starr had convicted Jim and Susan McDougal and Jim Guy Tucker in the first big Whitewater trial; in June, the Filegate story first broke into public view, and Sen. Alphonse D'Amato issued his committee's Whitewater report recommending that several administration officials be investigated for perjury. It was also in June that the White House went into full battle mode against a variety of allegations contained in Unlimited Access, a book by former FBI agent Gary Aldrich.

All these developments were heavy on the minds of Clinton, Dick Morris, and the other members of the re-election strategy team when the bomb went off at Khobar Towers on June 25. As it had after the World Trade Center bombing, a distracted White House gave the case to law enforcement. But there is significant evidence to suggest that the White House was even less interested in finding answers than it had been in the World Trade Center case. In the Khobar investigation, the Clinton administration not only failed to follow potentially productive leads but in some instances actively made the investigators' job more difficult.

From the beginning, the administration ran into significant Saudi resistance (the Saudis quickly identified a few low-level suspects and beheaded them, hoping to end the matter there). According to a long account of the case by Elsa Walsh published earlier this year in The New Yorker, FBI director Louis Freeh on several occasions urged the White House to pressure the Saudis for more cooperation. More than once, Walsh reports, Freeh was frustrated to learn that the president barely mentioned the case in meetings with Saudi leaders.

Freeh — whose own relations with the White House had deteriorated badly in the wake of the Filegate and campaign-finance scandals — became convinced that the White House didn't really want to push the Saudis for more information, which Freeh believed would confirm strong suspicions of extensive Iranian involvement in the attack. Walsh reports that in September 1998, Freeh, angry and losing hope, took the extraordinary step of secretly asking former president George H. W. Bush to intercede with the Saudi royal family. Acting without Clinton's knowledge, Bush made the request, and the Saudis began to provide new information, which indeed pointed to Iran.

In late 1998, Walsh reports, Freeh went to national security adviser Sandy Berger to tell him that it appeared the FBI had enough evidence to indict several suspects. "Who else knows this?" Berger asked Freeh, demanding to know if it had been leaked to the press. Freeh said it was a closely held secret. Then Berger challenged some of the evidence of Iranian involvement. "That's just hearsay," Berger said. "No, Sandy," Freeh responded. "It's testimony of a co-conspirator . . ." According to Walsh's account, Freeh thought that "Berger . . . was not a national security adviser; he was a public-relations hack, interested in how something would play in the press. After more than two years, Freeh had concluded that the administration did not really want to resolve the Khobar bombing."

Ultimately, Freeh never got the support he wanted from the White House. Walsh writes that "by the end of the Clinton era, Freeh had become so mistrustful of Clinton that, although he believed he had developed enough evidence to seek indictments against the masterminds behind the attack, not just the front-line suspects, he decided to wait for a new administration." Just before Freeh left office, Walsh reports, he met with new president George W. Bush and gave him a list of suspects in the bombing. In June, attorney general John Ashcroft announced the indictment of 14 suspects: 13 Saudis and one Lebanese. It is not clear whether any of them are the "masterminds" of Khobar; none is in American custody and no Iranian officials were named in the indictment.

Both the Khobar investigation and the World Trade Center bombing presented Clinton with daunting challenges; there were sensitive political issues involved, and in each case it was not immediately clear who was behind the violence. But in neither instance did Clinton press hard for answers and demand action; Berger would not have taken the position he did if the president fully supported a vigorous investigation. In the coming years, Clinton would be faced with clear acts of terrorism carried out by an organization with undeniable state support. But again, busy with other things, he did little.