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Are you a flexitarian? Can vegans eat honey? ... (Page 2)
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Chongo
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Aug 2, 2008, 11:56 AM
 
Beaver builds dam/lodge, floods field as pond is created, drowning mice, gophers, beetles, quail in the process.
     
scaught
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Aug 2, 2008, 04:01 PM
 
I really hate vegetarian threads on NN.
     
Chuckit
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Aug 2, 2008, 05:56 PM
 
I just deleted a bunch of posts trying to derail the thread. There's a fine line between disagreeing strongly and just plain trolling. Stay on the right side of it.
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Miniryu
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Aug 5, 2008, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
If humans were meant to be Vegan we'd have a mouth full of molars.
Umm... for most of human evolution we have been plant eaters. We've recently adapted to eat other animals, but we can't get all of our nutrients eating animals alone in the same way that we can get all of our nutrients eating plants.
There is a slight exception of a single vitamin which we naturally obtained from bacteria growing on the roots of plant- this is usually washed off in modern days. You can always get this nutrient in a supplement pill.

On the flipside, people who follow the Atkins diet (basically all meat) are advised to take tons and tons of vitamin supplements.

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Miniryu
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Aug 5, 2008, 08:22 AM
 
So just to explain things to the people out there who do not understand why plant-eaters do what they do, here are a list of the health benefits from eating a plant-based, unprocessed whole grain diet (note: no animal protein, including dairy):

1. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting cancer.

2. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting heart disease.

3. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting diabetes.

4. A slim figure and low body fat.

5. A noticeable increase in energy.

6. Better looking/healthier hair and teeth.

7. Better body odor (ever notice how people who eat lots of meat usually smell strongly?).

8. You get to eat as much food as you want, when you want. You don't have to put up with crap like "portion control" as calories from unprocessed plant foods usually burned of as excess heat rather than stored as fat.


Even if you still like to eat meat for the flavor, you should reconsider high dairy consumption. It isn't natural for us to drink the baby food of another species- the nutrients are not balanced for grown adults. There is far more calcium than we need and more than is recommended by the FDA. And the fat in milk is worse for us than any other type of fat.
( Last edited by Miniryu; Aug 5, 2008 at 09:04 AM. )

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Horsepoo!!!
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Aug 5, 2008, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
So just to explain things to the people out there who do not understand why plant-eaters do what they do, here are a list of the health benefits from eating a plant-based, unprocessed whole grain diet (note: no animal protein, including dairy):

1. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting cancer.

2. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting heart disease.

3. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting diabetes.

4. A slim figure and low body fat.

5. A noticeable increase in energy.

6. Better looking/healthier hair and teeth.

7. Better body odor (ever notice how people who eat lots of meat usually smell strongly?).

9. You get to eat as much food as you want, when you want. You don't have to put up with crap like "portion control" as calories from unprocessed plant foods usually burned of as excess heat rather than stored as fat.


Even if you still like to eat meat for the flavor, you should reconsider high dairy consumption. It isn't natural for us to drink the baby food of another species- the nutrients are not balanced for grown adults. There is far more calcium than we need and more than is recommended by the FDA. And the fat in milk is worse for us than any other type of fat.
What about skim milk? Almost zero fat and all the calcium. I don't think you can back all those claims up.

No, you *don't* get all the calcium you need just eating plants. No, you *don't* easily get all the protein you need just eating plants (unless you eat lots of legumes). No you *don't* get your probiotic bacteria just eating plants.

I severely cut down eating meats a few years ago but removing it from the diet means that you're going to have a difficult time getting enough iron and proteins in your diet. And *no*, I don't smell any better eating mostly vegetables. I *don't* have an increase in energy. I *don't* have better looking and healthier hair. I do have a slimmer figure though.

Do vegetarians also forget that the number 8 exists?

I'd appreciate it if you can find a way to back your claims up with some studies.
     
Cipher13
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Aug 5, 2008, 09:09 AM
 
Honestly, diet seems becomes negligible if you live an otherwise healthy lifestyle, I've found (exercise-wise), apart from one facet: the energy provided by said diet. I'm sorry, but number 5 is laughably false in my experience. My diet is almost entirely vegetarian by pure chance, and I have less energy than when I was eating meat regularly. I also get about 8 hours of exercise per day.

I have to eat significantly more on a "vegetarian" diet to keep up with myself.

I'd say health and fitness with regard to food consumed comes down to personal physiological and behavioural differences more than anything else.

I've gone through stages where I ate remarkably unhealthily, and remarkably healthily, and in between; and my fitness/figure has never varied. Maybe I'm just lucky.
     
jokell82
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Aug 5, 2008, 09:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
4. A slim figure and low body fat.
You've got to be kidding me. Do you actually believe that simply becoming vegetarian gives you a slim figure and low body fat???

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Miniryu
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Aug 5, 2008, 09:45 AM
 
First off, Horsepoo, many other countries in the wold eat non-meat diets. These people are healthier and don't have the same diseased that Americans do: no cancer, no diabetes, no obesity.
So think your responses through for a minute before posting.


Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
What about skim milk? Almost zero fat and all the calcium. I don't think you can back all those claims up.
I can. True skim has almost none of the fat, but the nutrients are still unbalanced in general. By no logical stretch of the imagination would it be natural for us to drink cow milk. And why do we drink milk into adulthood? No other animal in nature nurses past maturity.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
No, you *don't* get all the calcium you need just eating plants.
Okay, government recommendations for calcium consumption are considered to be high, but even with the assumption that they aren't, it is still very reasonable to get enough calcium without drinking milk.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
No, you *don't* easily get all the protein you need just eating plants (unless you eat lots of legumes).
Exactly. Eat lots of legumes. They taste good and fill you right up. Does GNC sell cow protein supplements to athletes? Hell no! Protein supplements for weightlifters are made from soy or whey, amongst other plants.

When animal protein is digested, the body creates a lot more acid than when plant protein is digested. The body uses calcium from your bones to neutralize this acid. Eating lots of meat weakens your bones. Here is a short article with good sources. This article doesn't list any sources that I can find, but it explains things nicely.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I removing it from the diet means that you're going to have a difficult time getting enough iron and proteins in your diet. And *no*, I don't smell any better eating mostly vegetables. I *don't* have an increase in energy. I *don't* have better looking and healthier hair. I do have a slimmer figure though.

Do vegetarians also forget that the number 8 exists?

I'd appreciate it if you can find a way to back your claims up with some studies.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
removing it [meat] from the diet means that you're going to have a difficult time getting enough iron and proteins in your diet.
You can't just *stop* eating meat, you have to eat more and a greater variety of vegetables. Iron comes from dark green plants, the same as calcium. There are always raisins, prunes, and many other non-sundried plants that give you iron. Like I said before, entire cultures survive fine without or with little animal protein.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
And *no*, I don't smell any better eating mostly vegetables. I *don't* have an increase in energy. I *don't* have better looking and healthier hair. I do have a slimmer figure though.
What can I say? Shower more?
For the record, you still do eat some meat, and I imagine a solid amount of dairy (the stuff is impossible to avoid, it seems). Odor is something best left judged by others around you- ph is unique in itself and it is possible you didn't smell that bad or have bad hair before. I have never had a weight problem so I barely noticed the weight loss. That doesn't mean my health didn't improve.

There's no evidence for the increased energy that I know of- it's just a widely reported effect that people experience. I noticed it. My friends who did the "just a little meat" instead of the "no meat" also did not experience the energy.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
I'd appreciate it if you can find a way to back your claims up with some studies.
I just used some legit, quick sources. I have more academic sources that I can look up later, but I've spent enough time here already.

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Miniryu
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Aug 5, 2008, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
You've got to be kidding me. Do you actually believe that simply becoming vegetarian gives you a slim figure and low body fat???
Not vegetarian, plant-based, unprocessed whole grain diet. If you aren't eating cupcakes, drinking milk, eating white bread, hamburgers, steak, etc. and are eating loads of fiber, then yes. I dare you to maintain your same body fat eating that- even with an increased caloric intake.

Exercise is still a must, but the food is a huge help.
My body fat is just as low as when I was an NCAA Division I cross-country runner (a decade ago). I ran 90 miles a week then, I run about 25-30 now (plus a couple miles of swimming here and there).

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jokell82
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Aug 5, 2008, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
I dare you to maintain your same body fat eating that- even with an increased caloric intake.
This makes absolutely no sense. So you're saying by increasing my calories of the foods you listed I will lose body fat? So those calories just magically disappear? Do you have any idea how the human body works???

Look, I'm not saying that there is no benefit to a diet like you describe. I'll never do it, but if you want to that's fine. But seriously, half of the reasons you listed are either just BS (like the one I quoted) or unprovable.

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Aug 5, 2008, 10:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
And why do we drink milk into adulthood?
Because we miss having breasts shoved in our faces five times per day.

When I say "we" I mean "you guys".
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Horsepoo!!!
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Aug 5, 2008, 12:24 PM
 
Miniryu...look I agree with you for the most part. Plants offer a lot. But I think we're both agreeing that a bit of meat, fish and dairy products are also important.

We're not talking 3 huge Porterhouse steaks a week here...we're talking one meal with meat for iron and protein, one with fish for omega-3 fatty acids, some low fat milk and yogurt for calcium and probiotic bacteria properties.

Sure you can get calcium and iron and protein and omega-3 from plants...but you'll be eating all day like a Brontosaurus to sustain yourself and get the minerals, vitamins, proteins you need.

Speaking of odors, I think strict vegetarians and vegans fart a lot more than meat eaters. A lot of vegetables and legumes are tough to digest.

Are dogs and other carnivores dying of diabetes and cancers?

You can't link meat to cancers. If anything the cancers are linked to processed foods and fast/junk foods that many people are eating now...not meats. Sure, there's a lot of fat in red meats but it's no where as deadly as the fried foods people eat in the States and in Canada and the frozen dinners people buy because they have no time to cook for themselves.

I assure you that meat eaters that stay away from junk foods and processed foods and eat balanced diets (meat, fish, vegetables, fruits, grains) are not more at risk for diabetes or cancers.
( Last edited by Horsepoo!!!; Aug 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM. )
     
sek929
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Aug 5, 2008, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
1. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting cancer.

2. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting heart disease.

3. A dramatic reduction in your chances of getting diabetes.
BS, maybe for some meat-crazed idiot, but a well balanced diet than includes meat doesn't increase your risk of anything.

Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
4. A slim figure and low body fat.
I have both, and perfect blood-pressure. It's called exercise, I get more of it in one week than most do in a year.

Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
5. A noticeable increase in energy.
Read above, I have mounds of energy, and do you know what keep my muscles healthy? Protein, tasty dead-animal protein.

Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
6. Better looking/healthier hair and teeth.

7. Better body odor (ever notice how people who eat lots of meat usually smell strongly?).
Don't really know what this is about, but again, I'm not a meat-nut, I have plenty of home grown veggies in my diet. Organic right outta the ground.

Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
8. You get to eat as much food as you want, when you want. You don't have to put up with crap like "portion control" as calories from unprocessed plant foods usually burned of as excess heat rather than stored as fat.
Again. exercise. I eat massive meals like a hungry dog, and then i burn it all up. Yeah, if you sit at a desk all day maybe a 16 ounce steak isn't for you.

Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
Even if you still like to eat meat for the flavor, you should reconsider high dairy consumption. It isn't natural for us to drink the baby food of another species- the nutrients are not balanced for grown adults. There is far more calcium than we need and more than is recommended by the FDA. And the fat in milk is worse for us than any other type of fat.
I'll agree wholeheartedly on this matter with you. Cows have only been domesticated for a very short time in terms of our species. In this culture cheese, milk, and cream are in just about every friggin' thing you can imagine. I'm lactose intolerant so I get to avoid them for my own sake, but I've never been a big dairy person, which might explain my good health.
     
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Aug 5, 2008, 01:48 PM
 
When you take in more calories then you burn, you get fat, period. It doesn't matter if you are a vegan or a pure carnivore, more in, less out=fat, especially if it is the form of carbohydrates.
     
paul w
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Aug 5, 2008, 02:01 PM
 
You know the thing is, while there are some cultures that are largely or uniquely vegetarian, there are many others with a diet that rely heavily - at times exclusively - on animals for their diet. I'm thinking in particular of certain East African pastoralist tribes but there are others.
     
jokell82
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Aug 5, 2008, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
When you take in more calories then you burn, you get fat, period. It doesn't matter if you are a vegan or a pure carnivore, more in, less out=fat, especially if it is the form of carbohydrates.
You don't even need that last part. It's simply calories in > calories out = fat. Period. Doesn't matter where those calories come from.

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Aug 5, 2008, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
You don't even need that last part. It's simply calories in > calories out = fat. Period. Doesn't matter where those calories come from.
I was under the assumption, after reading a nutrition for athletes publication written by a couple of doctors, that (food) fat cannot be stored as body fat.
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ghporter
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Aug 5, 2008, 03:34 PM
 
"Food" cannot be stored. The constituents of food, particularly the fats, CAN be stored. Further, if one consumes significantly more calories than one uses in the near term, the liver converts the simple carbohydrate compounds into more complex and easy to store fats. So what one consumes CAN be stored, but not "food" as such.

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Aug 5, 2008, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
"Food" cannot be stored. The constituents of food, particularly the fats, CAN be stored. Further, if one consumes significantly more calories than one uses in the near term, the liver converts the simple carbohydrate compounds into more complex and easy to store fats. So what one consumes CAN be stored, but not "food" as such.
I think we're talking past each other here.

The book states that fat calories can't be stored as body fat and are processed by the body first. Once those fat calories are used up, the body starts using carb calories. Any excess carb calories past the import/expenditure point are then stored as body fat.

Which is why a low-carb diet works, I presume.

And perhaps why the Czechs (whose national dish is basically a plate of lard) are generally slimmer than countries which encourage people to eat low-fat foods. Did anyone else notice how much fatter everyone became when the "low-fat" foods (baked beans, mayo, etc..) started appearing on the store shelves?
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brugesman
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Aug 5, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
Vegetarians' claims that they are healthier than meat eaters is absolutely bogus.

I make sure to eat at least a couple servings of meat per day - we always have some tri-tip or something on the grill - and I have 5% body fat, I'm strong enough to do 30 pull-ups, I've run two marathons, and my cholesterol is tiny.

Now, my vegan cousin is quite possibly the unhealthiest person I know. Why? It's probably because she so obsessed with avoiding animal products the only things she can actually eat are Krispy Kreme donuts.

Look, my point is, the only way to be healthy is to have a balanced diet.
     
ghporter
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Aug 5, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
Uncle Doof, yes, I hadn't gotten the background you were coming from. The body (generally) does convert digested lipids into usable energy before going to the more complex task of breaking down complex carbs into usable energy. Within limits, of course; if you take in too much fat, you may wind up having that converted into glycogen and not used, whereupon it is converted back into lipids and stored, along with the calories you consumed from the carbs. Balance is very important here, both in an overall diet and in each meal.

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Aug 5, 2008, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by brugesman View Post
Vegetarians' claims that they are healthier than meat eaters is absolutely bogus.

I make sure to eat at least a couple servings of meat per day - we always have some tri-tip or something on the grill - and I have 5% body fat, I'm strong enough to do 30 pull-ups, I've run two marathons, and my cholesterol is tiny.

Now, my vegan cousin is quite possibly the unhealthiest person I know. Why? It's probably because she so obsessed with avoiding animal products the only things she can actually eat are Krispy Kreme donuts.

Look, my point is, the only way to be healthy is to have a balanced diet.
Your cousin isn't eating actual food, if all she eats is Krispy Kreme, and that's why she's unhealthy. It's both possible and practical to eat a balanced, completely vegan diet, though it's harder to do that than eat a well balanced vegetarian diet. But most people seem to find it hard to eat a balanced omnivore diet, so maybe it's not about what kind of diet but how to manage a balanced diet in general...

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Aug 5, 2008, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Uncle Doof, yes, I hadn't gotten the background you were coming from. The body (generally) does convert digested lipids into usable energy before going to the more complex task of breaking down complex carbs into usable energy. Within limits, of course; if you take in too much fat, you may wind up having that converted into glycogen and not used, whereupon it is converted back into lipids and stored, along with the calories you consumed from the carbs. Balance is very important here, both in an overall diet and in each meal.
OK, thanks - good to know.

I guess the book skewed it a little because it was intended for high performance athletes, rather than Joe Bloggs. I followed the suggested diet in there for a few months and man did I feel good. And then the ex stole it off me and I haven't been able to get hold of a copy since (can't even remember what it was called).
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ghporter
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Aug 5, 2008, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
OK, thanks - good to know.

I guess the book skewed it a little because it was intended for high performance athletes, rather than Joe Bloggs. I followed the suggested diet in there for a few months and man did I feel good. And then the ex stole it off me and I haven't been able to get hold of a copy since (can't even remember what it was called).
Yeah, a high-performance athlete burns through calories no matter how they consume them, so precise balance is both crucial to their performance and their training. You and me? We need to be aware that if we manage to use up the calories we consume, that they came from a mix of what we ate, and that the more efficient the mix, the better we'll feel. It's like how so many restaurants here in the States serve salads as an antipasto or appetizer instead of after the entree, where it would actually facilitate digestion of the whole meal instead of "holding up progress" and allowing the fats in the entree to be more slowly (and less efficiently) digested.

And it's a major bummer that you can't even remember the name of that book! Yikes! Can you even speak to her about the book? "For old time's sake, what's the name of that bloody diet book?"

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Aug 5, 2008, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
And it's a major bummer that you can't even remember the name of that book!
Yeah. I remember what the cover looked like, I remember half the contents. Just not the name of the thing or who published it.

Way cool book though. It even went into how to reprogram one's appestat and stuff like that.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Can you even speak to her about the book? "For old time's sake, what's the name of that bloody diet book?"
Impossible - I burn my bridges well!
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Aug 5, 2008, 09:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
[B]Does GNC sell cow protein supplements to athletes? Hell no! Protein supplements for weightlifters are made from soy or whey, amongst other plants.

Whey protein is a bi-product of cheese production. So yes, GNC is selling cow protein. Also, most athletes prefer whey to soy since whey protein has a higher biological vlaue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey_protein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_Value

The body uses calcium from your bones to neutralize this acid. Eating lots of meat weakens your bones.
No, bile (an alkaline solution) neutralizes the acidity of the stomach contents (chyme) when squirted into the small intestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestion#Small_intestine
( Last edited by CollinG3G4; Aug 5, 2008 at 10:26 PM. )
     
turtle777
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Aug 6, 2008, 12:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
We need a new word for someone who is not religious about it, but is trying to eat less meat. Wow.
Atkintarian.

Oh, wait, nevermind.

-t
     
Miniryu
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Aug 15, 2008, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Doof View Post
I was under the assumption, after reading a nutrition for athletes publication written by a couple of doctors, that (food) fat cannot be stored as body fat.
Calories from different sources are burned differently, from what I have read. Unrefined plant calories burn less efficiently and a lot of energy is "wasted" and given off as heat rather than saved as fat.

Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
You don't even need that last part. It's simply calories in > calories out = fat. Period. Doesn't matter where those calories come from.
When I am done moving, I'll break out my books and scan my source that says otherwise.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Speaking of odors, I think strict vegetarians and vegans fart a lot more than meat eaters. A lot of vegetables and legumes are tough to digest.
Ha ha! You're probably right now this one. I've always assumed that once a person's digestive system adjusts, that this is no longer a problem. On the back of a Fiber One cereal box, they recommended increasing amounts I]gradually[/I], to give the digestive tract time to adjust. Most Americans don't eat enough fiber, so I'm guess its natural to fart a lot until the digestive tract gets better.


Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
Are dogs and other carnivores dying of diabetes and cancers?
Dogs and other carnivores are true carnivores and have much different physiology than we do. Many experiments are performed on lab rats, but we never assume that the results will generalize to humans because our physiology is so different.


Also, I should point out how unhealthy the meat we eat in America is: the cows, chickens, lambs, etc are all fed on corn. What's bad about corn? It's the same corn plant (in effect) that has been cloned over and over again. Genetically identical seeds are sold to farmers every year from modified corn plants. There is no genetic diversity in the corn we eat, and by looking at the genetic composition of the carbon in an animal or human's body, a scientist can tell how much of this modified corn we eat. Read the book The Omnivore's Dilemma for more information on that.


Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
You can't link meat to cancers.
I can't. But Dr. Campbell has data that can. He performed the largest studies of human health and diet ever done, and that's the conclusion that he reached.


Regarding your other comments, I definitely agree with you that a diet high in plant foods and low in meat consumption is better than what most of the people out there are eating. Natural foods have to be better than all that packaged, processed junk most people eat.

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Chongo
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Aug 15, 2008, 05:06 PM
 
This a serious question, no trolling intended.
Can vegetarians use lambskin condoms? I figure a vegan, by rule, would not.
     
Miniryu
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Aug 15, 2008, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 View Post
Whey protein is a bi-product of cheese production. So yes, GNC is selling cow protein. Also, most athletes prefer whey to soy since whey protein has a higher biological vlaue.
I wasn't aware of this (the Whey thing), thanks.
I thought athletes avoided soy because the isoflavones in it are so chemically similar to estrogen. Maybe that's the just the athletes that I train with.


Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 View Post
No, bile (an alkaline solution) neutralizes the acidity of the stomach contents (chyme) when squirted into the small intestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestion#Small_intestine
That's the general process described yes, but it's not all inclusive. You are using Wikipedia as a source: look at the Quality Assessment of the article: It's B class, meaning "The article is mostly complete and without major issues, but requires some further work to reach Good Article standards."

Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Do you have any idea how the human body works???
I studied physiology, biology and chemistry at one of the world's top universities- I know a little about how the human body works.

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ghporter
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Aug 15, 2008, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
That's the general process described yes, but it's not all inclusive. You are using Wikipedia as a source: look at the Quality Assessment of the article: It's B class, meaning "The article is mostly complete and without major issues, but requires some further work to reach Good Article standards."
Actually, it's bicarbonate released by the pancreas that neutralizes the chyme. Bile emulsifies lipids in the chyme.

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Aug 15, 2008, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Actually, it's bicarbonate released by the pancreas that neutralizes the chyme. Bile emulsifies lipids in the chyme.
I thought chyme was that stuff you covered bodies with in Brooklyn so the dogs can't find them?

Personally, I'm a Meatatarian.
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el chupacabra
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Aug 16, 2008, 03:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
I studied physiology, biology and chemistry at one of the world's top universities- I know a little about how the human body works.
Really? Then you probably know what a caecum is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecum


millions of years ago when humans were "old world monkeys" eating a lot of plants they too had a caecum. However for the past 1 million or so years we've been cooking and eating meat and hence our caecum has degenerated entirely into what we call the functionless appendix. The image shows our meaty stomach design compared to animals that eat primarily vegetables. When you look across class mammalia you will see the more plant matter an animal eats the more compartments it must have to digest it, and the more sophisticated digestive system it has. Cows for example often re-eat their poop since it's so hard to thoroughly digest it the first time, and thats an animal BUILT for plants.

First off, Horsepoo, many other countries in the wold eat non-meat diets. These people are healthier and don't have the same diseased that Americans do: no cancer, no diabetes, no obesity.
So think your responses through for a minute before posting.
Could you name a few? Ones that aren't starving and stunted... I can't think of any country that eats primarily veg by choice. Okinawans have the highest life expectancy in the world and they are hardly vegetarians. The live a balanced life of exercise, fish, and vegetables

When animal protein is digested, the body creates a lot more acid than when plant protein is digested. The body uses calcium from your bones to neutralize this acid. Eating lots of meat weakens your bones. Here is a short article with good sources. This article doesn't list any sources that I can find, but it explains things nicely.
If this was the case we would see a correlation of stunted bone growth in people that eat meat compared to people who eat vegetables. In fact the opposite is true. We find that children and teenagers who were fed primarily vegetables growing up have stunted bone growth. The skeletal system requires high level of protein that can't be acquired with any amount of plant matter. It is a myth that the skeletal system requires tons of calcium.

If cave men had been trying to live on plants before farms, they would have starved. Fruit is seasonal and it isn't like humans can eat a large amount of plant matter. It isn't very likely a tribe would come across a natural orchard of giant genetically engineered peaches, apples, corn and bananas..... or legumes.
     
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Aug 16, 2008, 08:53 AM
 
Someone give el chupacabra a SMACKDOWN! award.

This is a great conversation but I don't understand why this has to be so damned complicated.

Step One: Eat food. Not twinkies, not snickers bars but actual food with nutritional value. As long as what you are eating is actually food, you're good.

Step Two: Get plenty of exercise.

If you are fat and/or unhealthy then you are either eating too much food or not exercising enough. Or both.

An oversimplification maybe, but that's pretty much it.

I would love to see someone like Michael Phelps attempt to do what he does on a vegan diet. The lack of caloric density alone would make it nearly impossible to eat enough food to keep him going.

Then there's the fact that there are ZERO animals in this world that live on plants alone. Every single one of them need the bugs that are all over what they are eating in order to be healthy.

Veganism is a human creation based upon morals…and that's fine…but don't keep tying to convince everyone that it is "natural" or " THE healthiest" way to live. That's asinine.
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Aug 16, 2008, 09:39 AM
 
Not much of an oversimplification, smacintush. REAL food has this stuff called nutrients that are necessary for health. Other "food" on the other hand, is made of "ingredients" rather than "food." You can tell the difference just by reading the label. One real benefit of organic products is that it's easier to read the label: there are few metaphors for high-calorie sweeteners that pass as organic, with the only one I've run across being "dehydrated organic cane juice." Oh, and there's portion size, too. Your stomach isn't a trash bag, so don't try to stuff it. Eat a total volume that's about the size of your fist at each meal and you will probably be eating the right amount. Pay attention to balance, so you're not eating "natural" fats at the expense of eating natural grains, and you'll be more comfortable too.

This CAN be done without eating "meats" as such, and can even be done within the stricter rules for veganism, but it's harder that way.

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Aug 19, 2008, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
I had a cookie though and it wasn't bad except for a slightly off texture and chalky aftertaste.
Dude, let me tell you about that "cookie"
     
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Aug 24, 2008, 11:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
That's the general process described yes, but it's not all inclusive. You are using Wikipedia as a source: look at the Quality Assessment of the article: It's B class, meaning "The article is mostly complete and without major issues, but requires some further work to reach Good Article standards."
You'll find the quoted information in any university level general biology text.
     
kmkkid
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Aug 25, 2008, 08:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This a serious question, no trolling intended.
Can vegetarians use lambskin condoms? I figure a vegan, by rule, would not.
Only if it were fabricated from the carcass of a lamb that died by natural causes, I'd imagine.


Then again, maybe not.
     
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Aug 25, 2008, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
Only if it were fabricated from the carcass of a lamb that died by natural causes, I'd imagine.


Then again, maybe not.
No, not then either, in the same way that ‘real vegetarians’ cannot wear clothes made from leather.


Personally, I don’t eat stuff that tastes like meat, though I don’t care if parts of it have been prepared using products from animals. I also don’t mind wearing clothes made partially or entirely from animal products. I normally simplify this (sorry, Doof) by saying that I’m lacto-ovo vegetarian—or just vegetarian, since most people don’t have a clue what lacto-ovo means. If people ask, I expand and explain more thoroughly, but for most people ‘vegetarian’ is vague enough; no need to confuse them further.

Then again, at a guess I’d say that about 99 per cent of the people who claim to be ‘real vegetarians’ are not. I’ve only ever met one single person who lived his entire life (or tried his damnedest, at least) completely vegetarianistically (is that a word?). Everyone else I’ve met who calls themselves ‘real vegetarians’ and scoff at the likes of me wouldn’t dream of checking whether their soap was made with animal fats, or whether the their new writing table top was glued together with glue that contains animal bi-products, or even if the pen they’re using is filled with ink dyed with crimson (which is based on dried cochineal insects). In the strictest sense of the word, being a ‘real vegetarian’ is nearly impossible in this world. And also rather silly, in my personal opinion.
     
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Aug 25, 2008, 01:43 PM
 
Odd, I thought the term vegetarian dealt solely with what you ate.
     
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Aug 25, 2008, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
Odd, I thought the term vegetarian dealt solely with what you ate.
Not according to the (self-dubbed) ‘official’ definition as I read it a while back. According to them, being vegetarian is the same as being vegan, except with the addition of dairy products and/or eggs.
     
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Aug 25, 2008, 01:57 PM
 
Yeah, that's a negative. Dictionary.com agrees with me. Sounds like a bunch of hippies trying to dodge the term hippy.
     
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Aug 25, 2008, 02:01 PM
 
That's nonsense. Vegetarianism is a diet — you don't eat animals or animal bits, period. On the other hand, if you're a moral vegetarian, it's pretty hypocritical to use dead animal products for things other than eating, but that's not part of the word's definition.
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Oisín
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Aug 25, 2008, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
Yeah, that's a negative. Dictionary.com agrees with me. Sounds like a bunch of hippies trying to dodge the term hippy.
Let me see if I can find it.

*off to Google*

No, you appear to be right. I’m fairly sure the definition I had in mind was from the Vegetarian Society, but the only definition I can find on their site doesn’t mention anything other than food (it doesn’t mention anything other than food about vegans, either, oddly enough). Possibly they’ve changed the definition page (I seem to remember it being a lot longer, too), or possibly it was from some other organisation I read it …

The Vegan Society still has any use of animal products as part of the definition of veganism, though, so all my examples would be valid for vegans—and though I know very few vegans (and none well enough to know whether they really do try to comply), I’d doubt most vegans would stand that ‘test’, either.

I guess that puts me a bit closer to fulfilling all the ‘requirements’ of vegetarianism. My only remaining ‘vice’, then, is not bothering to care whether something I eat may contain gelatine or whether my cheese was curdled with rennet and such things.
( Last edited by Oisín; Aug 25, 2008 at 02:12 PM. )
     
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Aug 25, 2008, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Miniryu View Post
Awesome book. I highly recommend it to everyone. After reading it, I finally got serious about revising my eating habits. I've now reduced my meat intake to a maximum of a single serving per day (usually works out to more like 3 or 4 servings per week), and I also generally don't eat meat unless I know that it wasn't factory farmed. I also fairly recently discovered that I've become (more?) lactose intolerant, so I've drastically cut back my dairy intake as well. I have probably 2 servings of dairy per week, and that's basically entirely from cheese (artisanal cheeses which actually contain little to no lactose, compared to processed cheeses that usually have milk solids added later in the process and therefore contain more lactose). I try and stick with whole grains over processed grains, and actually read the ingredients on things in the supermarket in my efforts to eliminate high fructose corn syrup from my diet.

Unlike other people I know who have also acted to either reduce or eliminate the meat in their diet, I find that the less meat I eat the less I actually want it. I have never felt a craving for meat, and more often than not will choose a meatless dish over a meated one, even if it would be my single serving of meat for the day. I don't know that I necessarily feel healthier or have more energy, but I do know that we're spending significantly less money on groceries now. I think the hardest thing for me has been just breaking the habit of assuming that I'll enjoy a meat dish over a vegetarian one. Also, I've discovered that, even in a large and fairly liberal metropolitan area like Boston, it's surprisingly difficult to find restaurants that serve decent vegetarian food. Usually it's only a single dish, or just a handful of their normal dishes with something substituted for the meat. There are exceptions of course, and those places tend to have very good food.
     
Oisín
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Aug 25, 2008, 02:22 PM
 
Also, I've discovered that, even in a large and fairly liberal metropolitan area like Boston, it's surprisingly difficult to find restaurants that serve decent vegetarian food. Usually it's only a single dish, or just a handful of their normal dishes with something substituted for the meat. There are exceptions of course, and those places tend to have very good food.
That little Buddhist place close to the square out in Cambridge was quite good, I found. (I haven’t the faintest idea what it was called)
     
nonhuman
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Aug 25, 2008, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
That little Buddhist place close to the square out in Cambridge was quite good, I found. (I haven’t the faintest idea what it was called)
Yeah, I've been there before. Cool little place, and rather convenient for me (I live in Porter Square and, when not working from home, work in Central). I also have no idea what it's called.
     
subego
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Aug 25, 2008, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Also, I've discovered that, even in a large and fairly liberal metropolitan area like Boston, it's surprisingly difficult to find restaurants that serve decent vegetarian food.

Oh, good lord. If I lived in Boston I'd be forced to eat meat by way of the General Gao's Chicken at Ta Chien.

Where's my drool smiley?
     
nonhuman
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Aug 25, 2008, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Oh, good lord. If I lived in Boston I'd be forced to eat meat by way of the General Gao's Chicken at Ta Chien.

Where's my drool smiley?
Never been there. Until recently my favorite Chinese place was Happy Garden in Somerville (which, it just so happens, was right down the street from me). I think they got shut down for health code violations or something though. Certain of their dishes were very good, however. Their Ma Po Dofu was as good as any I'd had in China. Now I usually get Zoe's, which is right across the street from where Happy Garden used to be and, if you order from the appropriate sections of their menu, you can get some excellent stuff.
     
 
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