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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Shut it down! III: The Search for Bipartisan Agreement

View Poll Results: Will the government shut down?
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Yes, a budget agreement will not be made 1 votes (16.67%)
No, it will be averted as before 3 votes (50.00%)
**** if I know 2 votes (33.33%)
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll
Shut it down! III: The Search for Bipartisan Agreement
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The Final Dakar
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Apr 21, 2017, 01:43 AM
 
Yes, it's that time of year again. I create this thread and the shutdown is averted. Sincerely hoping to go 3 for 3.

Points of contention this year: Funding the wall and funding the ACA.
     
Laminar
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Apr 21, 2017, 10:03 AM
 
Public
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 21, 2017, 11:32 AM
 
Always.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 21, 2017, 01:33 PM
 
**** it, rolling the dice on Trump doing some brinkmanship, since he didn't get collect any scalps on the AHCA
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 21, 2017, 07:20 PM
 
Mulvaney says White House has offered Dems $1 in Obamacare funds for $1 in wall funds in Bloomberg Live interview
Do I need to point out the flaw here?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 25, 2017, 09:36 AM
 
Trump seems to have backed off border wall funding so things looking much better atm
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 26, 2017, 11:39 AM
 
Aide: White House threatens to cut off ObamaCare payments on Pelosi call | TheHill
"Mulvaney indicated that while the Trump administration had continued the CSR payments, they had not yet decided whether they would make the May payment," the aide said. "Mulvaney made clear that, absent Congressional action, the judge's order would stand and the administration would cease making payments.”
Canceling the payments to insurers, known as cost-sharing reductions (CSRs), would cause chaos in the insurance market.
Ryan rejects ObamaCare subsidies in funding bill | TheHill

Democratic negotiators have agreed to support $15 billion in additional military funding — half of President Trump’s original $30 billion request — but only if Republicans agree to use the omnibus spending package to fund ObamaCare insurer subsides, according to sources familiar with the talks.
Democrats are the worst. Give an increase of 15 billion to our gigantic military in return for payments everyone should support so as to not destabilize our ****ing healthcare industry.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Apr 27, 2017, 07:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
so as to not destabilize our ****ing healthcare industry.
Way, WAY, too ****ing late.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Apr 27, 2017, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Way, WAY, too ****ing late.
Is there a specific point at which you believe our health care industry was destabilized? Was it the explosion in health care spending in the early '00s that doubled the rate of GDP growth? Was it the point at which Americans spend more per capita on health care and experience worse outcomes than just about any other developed nation?

Or was it destabilized when the health insurers were forced to honor their plans and cover people with acne? Or when we took steps toward reducing the number one cause of bankruptcy in the country?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Apr 27, 2017, 09:42 AM
 
Looking good now. Sounds like a stopgap CR will be passed to cover the extra time it takes to tidy up the legit funding bill.

Increasing defense spending is still a joke, however.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 1, 2017, 12:08 PM
 
Crisis likely averted... for 4 months? I don't understand our government
     
Snow-i
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May 1, 2017, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Crisis likely averted... for 4 months? I don't understand our government
They like our money. A lot of it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 1, 2017, 10:39 PM
 
I'm not sure I follow what that has to do with 4 months.
     
Snow-i
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May 1, 2017, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not sure I follow what that has to do with 4 months.
Because in 4 months they will likely reconvene to find ways to take more.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 1, 2017, 11:18 PM
 
I don't get it; Does more money become available in 4 months or is this some generic complaint about government spending?
     
andi*pandi
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May 2, 2017, 05:47 PM
 
Now Trump is in favor of a shutdown.
     
Snow-i
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May 2, 2017, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't get it; Does more money become available in 4 months or is this some generic complaint about government spending?
It isn't just the money collected today.

It's also money due tomorrow in the form of deficits and adding to the federal debt. We could argue about the short term benefits, but the chickens have to come home to roost somehow one day.

And yes, my complaint about the whole budget dog and pony show/brinksmanship is general.
     
BadKosh
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May 3, 2017, 09:39 AM
 
I can almost hear "See You in September" playing in the background.
     
andi*pandi
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May 3, 2017, 11:23 AM
 
shutting down the national parks in summer would lose a lot of revenue, ya know.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 3, 2017, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Now Trump is in favor of a shutdown.
Only because the Democrats thought they won. ****ing insane
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 3, 2017, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
It isn't just the money collected today.

It's also money due tomorrow in the form of deficits and adding to the federal debt. We could argue about the short term benefits, but the chickens have to come home to roost somehow one day.

And yes, my complaint about the whole budget dog and pony show/brinksmanship is general.
Lord, save the deficit proselytization for another thread.

While I agree politicians will trot out the results for their own benefit, I still think the results have a real impact on people.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 3, 2017, 12:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I can almost hear "See You in September" playing in the background.
I'm sure I'll be bumping this thread then.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 3, 2017, 04:33 PM
 
It's passed the House with 103 nay GOP votes.
     
Snow-i
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May 4, 2017, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Lord, save the deficit proselytization for another thread.
It was asked and answered

While I agree politicians will trot out the results for their own benefit, I still think the results have a real impact on people.
This is precisely my point.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 5, 2017, 04:19 PM
 
I must admit, your point has gone over my head.

Also: signed by Trump. See everyone in Sept/Oct
     
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May 5, 2017, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I must admit, your point has gone over my head.
My point is that it is a circus, by design. The difference is that the flaming hoops are made of our money and politicians jumping through them get high off the fumes. Meanwhile, that money could have been used by it's original owners to go to college, raise their kids, buy a house, or even just buy a beer after a long day at work. Every one of those dollars comes directly from the pocket of an American citizen, and politicians are staggeringly careless with it and treat it as their own to effect their agendas, many times self-serving in one form or another.

I'm not advocating against taxes or government spending in general, both of which I recognize as critical functions of our society. I'm advocating for a return to rationality in the budget process. A pipe dream I know.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 6, 2017, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
My point is that it is a circus, by design.
I'll disagree. It's a circus because of elections. Each side's constituents now screams bloody murder about certain budgets. It's no coincidence budgets under Obama ended up being just CRs. It punted on making hard decisions – and concessions.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Meanwhile, that money could have been used by it's original owners to go to college, raise their kids, buy a house, or even just buy a beer after a long day at work. Every one of those dollars comes directly from the pocket of an American citizen, and politicians are staggeringly careless with it and treat it as their own to effect their agendas, many times self-serving in one form or another.
This is the proselytization I'm talking about.
     
Snow-i
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May 9, 2017, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'll disagree. It's a circus because of elections. Each side's constituents now screams bloody murder about certain budgets. It's no coincidence budgets under Obama ended up being just CRs. It punted on making hard decisions – and concessions.
I agree that it's because of elections, which is exactly why the design is to be a circus to capitalize on outrage for clicks and votes.

This is the proselytization I'm talking about.
Forgive me. I don't really want to have to wait for "Shut it down! IV: The voyage home" to articulate my thoughts.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 15, 2017, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I agree that it's because of elections, which is exactly why the design is to be a circus to capitalize on outrage for clicks and votes.
Yeah, no. The circus is a side-effect of current polarization.

Ok, weird thought. You're arguing circus by "Intelligent Design" and I'm arguing circus by "Adaptation."


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Forgive me. I don't really want to have to wait for "Shut it down! IV: The voyage home" to articulate my thoughts.
Here's a crazy thought: Start a thread about taxes and budgets if you want to share your philosophy. I'll even participate!
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 5, 2017, 10:33 AM
 
Bumping for another exciting month in DC.
     
reader50
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Sep 5, 2017, 12:28 PM
 
I was just reading about this. On account of twice wasting time on major attacks on the ACA, Congress has a lot piled up. Which must be addressed in only a few months.

• Raise borrowing limit, because hey, we still can't live within our means.
• Hash out a budget.
• Optional: tax reform to help the 1%.
• Trump is threatening a shutdown if he doesn't get money for the Wall. No word on money for the Night's Watch.
• Possible DACA repeal, to go after the kids.
• Make supporting payments for the ACA. Previous payments ran out at the end of August.
• Optional: another attack on the ACA.
• Allocate emergency funds for Houston/Harvey.
• Possible funding for things related to North Korea. But this might go in the black budget.

I'll bet against the Wall funds. Trump makes all kinds of threats, but he'll be needing money for any "fire and fury". Illegal immigrants sneaking across the border do not hold press conferences to threaten Guam and call Trump's bluffs. So the Wall funds will get punted to next year.

I'm worried about the supporting ACA payments, which help the lowest income participants. Along with blowing time on another general ACA attack.
( Last edited by reader50; Sep 5, 2017 at 02:05 PM. Reason: forgot tax reform)
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 5, 2017, 12:42 PM
 
I heard he was going to delay funding for harvey until he got his way on the wall, or was it taxes... hard to keep up.
     
reader50
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Sep 5, 2017, 01:44 PM
 
I'd forgotten the tax reform item. Edited into the list.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 5, 2017, 01:56 PM
 
Add addressing DACA
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 11:45 AM
 
Democrats want a three month extension of the debt limit, which is incredibly evil. They know that a clean hike without hurricane aid would likely require Ryan to get their votes.
     
besson3c
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Sep 6, 2017, 12:32 PM
 
And Hurricane Irma
     
besson3c
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Sep 6, 2017, 12:38 PM
 
Some people that voted for Trump wanted to throw a monkey wrench into our political machinery. Well, they are about to see what happens with a totally dysfunctional and broken government.
     
besson3c
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Sep 6, 2017, 12:43 PM
 
I realize that things would not be rosy with Hillary Clinton in office, but at least she wouldn't be way over her head politically doing really stupid things like messing around with DACA, pointless walls, not distancing herself from the KKK, etc. This is the last thing we need right now. I'll take her emails and political competency over what we are about to see.

Sorry to bomb/troll this thread with this little potshot, but I hope the takeaway is our valuing competency, knowledge, wisdom, and a qualified political team going forward.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Democrats want a three month extension of the debt limit, which is incredibly evil. They know that a clean hike without hurricane aid would likely require Ryan to get their votes.
Reports Trump agreed to this leaving me incredibly confused
     
reader50
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
... but I hope the takeaway is our valuing competency, knowledge, wisdom, and a qualified political team going forward.
I'll grant Hillary 1, maybe 2 of those four items. Admittedly Trump is closer to 0 than 1. Still not a strong endorsement.

Apparently Hillary is releasing a new book. She finally came clean and admitted dirty tricks to lock Bernie out, er, claims Bernie entered the race to disrupt the Democratic party.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:12 PM
 
I think Dems are going to hold the debt ceiling and government funding hostage for DACA in December.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I'll grant Hillary 1, maybe 2 of those four items. Admittedly Trump is closer to 0 than 1. Still not a strong endorsement.

Apparently Hillary is releasing a new book. She finally came clean and admitted dirty tricks to lock Bernie out, er, claims Bernie entered the race to disrupt the Democratic party.
He didn't?
     
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
What the heck is a "three month extension to the debt limit"? Do they mean increasing it, then it falls back in three months? Are we expecting a windfall profits tax lump in three months, which will happily cover everything?

If corporations with pending foreign profits all decided to repatriate the money and pay their taxes like the rest of us, it could happen. But I don't see the big corporations doing any such thing. This sounds like pushing the problem one quarter into the future, in exchange for a guaranteed hard shutdown if a permanent limit adjustment isn't made at that time.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
This sounds like pushing the problem one quarter into the future, in exchange for a guaranteed hard shutdown if a permanent limit adjustment isn't made at that time.
Yes that's why I'm confused Trump says he's on board.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 01:55 PM
 
Anyway until this ****er is passed anything can happen. If not I'll be bumping this thread in three months.
     
reader50
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Sep 6, 2017, 05:13 PM
 
OK, it's not as bad as I thought. A "three month extension to the debt limit" doesn't fall back down in December. This is politics-speak, it just means a small(ish) bump to the debt ceiling. Enough to cover an estimated 3 more months of deficit spending. Those who object are mostly pulling for a bigger bump to get past the mid-term elections. Almost no one is trying to balance the budget with cuts coupled to higher taxes on the 1%.

I suppose I'm in favor of the temporary bump. Keep their feet in the fire whenever they want to up the deficit limit. Spending us into bankruptcy shouldn't be convenient.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 6, 2017, 05:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I suppose I'm in favor of the temporary bump. Keep their feet in the fire whenever they want to up the deficit limit. Spending us into bankruptcy shouldn't be convenient.
I mean, the dog and pony show of default has its downsides too. This is the dumbest political football to keep alive, as each side holds it hostage when they're in the minority.
     
besson3c
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Sep 6, 2017, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I'll grant Hillary 1, maybe 2 of those four items. Admittedly Trump is closer to 0 than 1. Still not a strong endorsement.
Competency: she is politically clumsy (she obviously lost for this reason), but when it comes down to understanding laws and nuances, I think it is fair to say that her experience as Secretary of State and all of her other experiences would make her as qualified as anybody. She may be lousy at execution, we will have to speculate on this, but a vote is speculative too. I would say that speculating competency is reasonably rational. Do you agree?

Knowledge: same sort of deal. I don't remember hearing her say something that was obviously factually incorrect. She's very disingenuous and spin-prone, but I'm talking about talking out of her ass like Trump or Rick Perry might when talking about climate change.

Wisdom: this is also speculative, but I meant this in the sense of her having experience. Maybe this is the weakest point.

A qualified political team: it's hard to see her wanting to hire people like Betsy Devos, this NASA guy, putting Chelsea Clinton in charge of important stuff, Ben Carson, etc.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 7, 2017, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
She finally came clean and admitted dirty tricks to lock Bernie out, er, claims Bernie entered the race to disrupt the Democratic party.
That's an apt description (apart from the word “disrupt”), but I just happen to think that this was perfectly legitimate for Bernie to do so. That's how democracies are supposed to work.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Sep 8, 2017, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's an apt description (apart from the word “disrupt”), but I just happen to think that this was perfectly legitimate for Bernie to do so. That's how democracies are supposed to work.
I don't think it's how democracies are supposed to work but it seems the most logical option when yours has been rigged into a two party system.
     
 
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