[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

That's quite the straw-man argument to bring to this discussion, as the underpinnings of OS 9 have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I was talking entirely about the interface.

Also, I've addressed the Cmd-N discussion above. Both sides have merit. I can see why Apple would choose their way and prefer it that way. Cmd-Shift-N is no less convenient to me for the once a week I use it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is a fair argument, but you could say the exact same thing for features such as Exposé, particularly its hot corners. I've also seen users get confused by the Front Row trigger when it is accidentally invoked, ditto for their screensaver, and things like resizing their dock by dragging the divider. I agree that it is best to minimize these sorts of things, but I just happen to think that the solution here is to make it clear to the user what the option does rather than just giving them fewer options, providing the feature is desirable to enough users.

Apple probably agrees, and uses that last provision there as part of their decision-making process.

Not enough people care about window-resizing.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Lots of ways:

1) some key combo to reveal borders

…in all apps except all those with custom windowing (hello iTunes!), making it a useless, inconsistent mess.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

2) don't use borders

…relying instead upon…?

Originally Posted by besson3c 

3) handles appear on mouseover after hovering there

where?

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I actually think this is a source of confusion with OS X in general, not knowing which panes can be resized and which can't. This is probably something that needs more of a global UI convention.

I really don't think any of these problems are problems that cannot be dealt with, I think you are making this out to be more than it is. When the developer calls upon a window style it inherits these properties, which can include the thickness/target area, whatever.

And this is worth the effort because THREE people on some message board every two years muse about how it would save them two clicks, while Apple is busy redefining the entire computing experience?

Are you for real?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Apple probably agrees, and uses that last provision there as part of their decision-making process.

Not enough people care about window-resizing.

But you don't know that. How can you? Have you conducted surveys of some sort?

And this is worth the effort because THREE people on some message board every two years muse about how it would save them two clicks, while Apple is busy redefining the entire computing experience?

Are you for real?

Why are you being so defensive and emotional?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

Why? Because it used to be that way?

I really don't know what OS you're referring to. I don't remember the finder in os 8/9 being any better. (Granted, my memory of os 8/9 is getting more and more fuzzy.)

The Finder remembered window positions and only allowed a folder to be open in one window at a time. It was more consistent WITH ITS OWN INTERNAL METAPHOR, not particularly with anything else.

Aside from the Finder, OS 9's interface was in NO WAY superior to OS X's - no, pop-up windows were not consistent with anything and not faster than a folder in today's Dock, even when you WEREN'T busy re-doing them because they'd shifted or lost their size or just refused to open.

Also, nobody seems to remember that the interface was so cluttered by OS 9 that the multiple folder view options started getting weird.
When you had a folder open (spatial referential eenie-oonie-wannah yeah it remembered its position) and opened up its parent folder in LIST view, the folder-only-in-a-single-window rule required that the folder window closed on you the second you (perhaps accidentally) clicked on its disclosure triangle in the parent window.

…but at least it was consistent.

Completely bone-headed for file management requirements of 1999, but consistent with itself.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

But you don't know that. How can you? Have you conducted surveys of some sort?

This thread is exhibit A, for all the attention and agreement it has garnered (virtually zero).

The frequency with which this issue is brought up by confused/annoyed newbies and switchers is another (virtually zero).

Also, the everlasting discussions about GUI speed in the early days of OS X, when window resizing was a primary benchmark, led to rather extensive discussion of just how much time average users spend resizing windows.

It seems that most people resize windows just once - to their preferred default size, which is remembered once the last window is closed.

End of involvement.

And lastly, the fact that Apple hasn't bothered to give a **** is fairly conclusive evidence that "not enough" people care, wouldn't you say?

[besson3c]

I say that I don't know either way, and I don't think that using MacNN is any sort of exhibit, in part because most of us here seem to be long time Mac users. The switcher surveys I would be interested in hearing about, because not that my own personal experience means a whole lot, I've heard several Windows users bring this up.

I'm ambivalent about whether or not this feature would be the time and effort, I'm just saying that if it is a worthwhile feature to add (and I think I've been pretty consistent with this qualification thus far), it would not be of big detriment to add it if it were disabled by default.

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Let's bring this back to resizing windows by their borders:

The feature is either clutter (by requiring window borders and an option somewhere that needs to be explained), useless (by having the cursor change in a two-pixel-wide area around the window), or completely arcane (by requiring a terminal command to switch on).

The thing is, there is definitely at least one way to achieve the functionality we're talking about without introducing ANY clutter whatsoever and without requiring any kind of key-activated click or location-specific mouse hovering: Just use the same "drag-from-the-corner" concept that we already have, but put the function at the upper-right and lower-left corners of the window. Problem solved... seamlessly.

[Spheric Harlot]

Neat!

Not resize-by-edges, but still pretty neat.

[P]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Just a note: In most applications, Cmd-N opens a new document in a new window (for document-centric apps) or "just" a new window (things like Safari).

When the Finder switched from a spatial to the window-browser based interface model more suitable to the large quantities of files managed today, it made more sense to assign Cmd-N to a new window rather than the creation of a new logical subdivision in the filing system. Apart from that, Cmd-Shift-N should be second nature by now.

(note: iTunes creating a new playlist with Cmd-N fits right in with creating a new folder in the Finder in terms of interface logic; I'm not saying you don't have a point-)

Let the record show that I tried to avoid this, but it's a little late to stop the discussion now, so here goes:

Where is that "New Window" option located? In the Windows menu, right - it's a new window! Nope, it's under File. Why? Because that's where New always is. Why is New always under File? Because in every single app except a web browser, New creates some sort of file. A folder is the sort of file the Finder would create - the Finder is about working with folders.

Another little riddle for you: What happens if you push Ctrl-N in Windows (XP, because that's what I use at work. Vista might have changed this, but I doubt it)? Nothing. Well, how do you make a new browser window, then? Pick the explorer or the more recent browser window, it's the same answer. Look around - Windows has used a browser-type interface for any number of years now - 25 if you include the explorer style - surely there must be a nice shortcut for making a new window?

There isn't. You can make a new window to a specific location that you like, such as a folder in the current window, but that doesn't take a shortcut and isn't the kind of general command the New Window is. You can make a new explorer window at the root by opening explorer.exe again (or hit Win-E), but you actually can't make a new browser window without having a location to point it to. Have you ever heard anyone lamenting the lack of a "New Window" option in Windows?

Making a New Window barely makes sense in the context of a web browser. Don't get me wrong - the feature is needed, but calling it "New Window" and putting it under File isn't ideal. The only reason for having a New Window option is to make the Finder consistent with a web browser, while simultaneously making it inconsistent with everything else. The Finder isn't very web browsery anyway - certainly not like Windows tries to be - so this effort to achieve consistency with one app makes little sense.

And the reason that this comes up under the heading of Cmd-N is that but for that particular reason I could have ignored this interface failure. Now I can't, because it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[P]

Originally Posted by gradient 

The thing is, there is definitely at least one way to achieve the functionality we're talking about without introducing ANY clutter whatsoever and without requiring any kind of key-activated click or location-specific mouse hovering: Just use the same "drag-from-the-corner" concept that we already have, but put the function at the upper-right and lower-left corners of the window. Problem solved... seamlessly.

Awesome. Even better if you make the corners active when hovered over, like the gumdrop buttons for Close-Minimize-Zoom. That would aid discoverability immensely.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by gradient 

The thing is, there is definitely at least one way to achieve the functionality we're talking about without introducing ANY clutter whatsoever and without requiring any kind of key-activated click or location-specific mouse hovering: Just use the same "drag-from-the-corner" concept that we already have, but put the function at the upper-right and lower-left corners of the window. Problem solved... seamlessly.

Exactly.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by P 

Let the record show that I tried to avoid this, but it's a little late to stop the discussion now, so here goes:

Duly noted. This thread has already meandered widely, anyway, since the actual subject - resizable window borders - really is of interest to no more than three people here.

Originally Posted by P 

Where is that "New Window" option located? In the Windows menu, right - it's a new window! Nope, it's under File. Why? Because that's where New always is. Why is New always under File? Because in every single app except a web browser, New creates some sort of file. A folder is the sort of file the Finder would create - the Finder is about working with folders.

That the "new window" command should be in the "Windows" menu makes sense - on the surface. (Please read on further down for more on that before replying to this point.)

The Finder is about document management. It is, in essence, an entire app dedicated to "filing". It is as much about working with folders as it is about working with multiple windows, file transactions, and browsing/searching for documents.

Saying it's all "about working with folders" is like saying that a telephone is "about pushing buttons".

It's actually called the "FINDer".

Its primary function is file browsing, and that is window-based, which is to say, like it or not, that's what Apple decided ten years ago, and IMO it's the far more appropriate approach to "modern-day computing", as the term has been bandied about.

Originally Posted by P 

Another little riddle for you: What happens if you push Ctrl-N in Windows (XP, because that's what I use at work. Vista might have changed this, but I doubt it)? Nothing. Well, how do you make a new browser window, then? Pick the explorer or the more recent browser window, it's the same answer. Look around - Windows has used a browser-type interface for any number of years now - 25 if you include the explorer style - surely there must be a nice shortcut for making a new window?

I stopped reading at "in Windows". Windows implements a fundamentally broken version of "cut" and paste when you press Ctrl-X in the Explorer.

Whether Microsoft gets something right or wrong is a matter of chance, not coherent design.

Originally Posted by P 

Making a New Window barely makes sense in the context of a web browser.

It makes as much sense in the context of a file browser.

If your logic held true and Cmd-N necessarily and naturally meant creation of a new folder in the Finder, then why doesn't Cmd-N create a new bookmark or bookmark folder in Safari?

Originally Posted by P 

Don't get me wrong - the feature is needed, but calling it "New Window" and putting it under File isn't ideal. The only reason for having a New Window option is to make the Finder consistent with a web browser, while simultaneously making it inconsistent with everything else.

Incorrect.

The "File" menu follows the hierarchy of being the next item below global (Apple) and application-wide (Application menu). If the application is document-centric, it concerns document management. If the application is window-centric, it concerns windows. (And it's followed by the "Edit" menu, which concerns selections within the document/window.)

Your real beef is with the fact that the Finder is a window-centric application, rather than a document-centric one. Which in a sense it never was, as it ALWAYS offered management only, and NEVER actual document creation/saving.

Originally Posted by P 

The Finder isn't very web browsery anyway - certainly not like Windows tries to be - so this effort to achieve consistency with one app makes little sense.

And the reason that this comes up under the heading of Cmd-N is that but for that particular reason I could have ignored this interface failure. Now I can't, because it sticks out like a sore thumb.

It brings it in line with the behavior of every other app out there - Cmd-N opens a new window. Whether that new window contains a new document, a new browser, a new server connection (cyberduck), or whatever else doesn't really matter to the user.

It's a new window of whatever-this-app-deals-with.

The trade-off, of course, is that iPhoto and iTunes break this line of thought. Compromise abounds. But by all rights, Cmd-N in the Finder should create a new DOCUMENT and ask me which app to use to create one. Deigning Cmd-N to create a new folder is completely arbitrary and as justifiable as using Cmd-N to create a new Bookmark or bookmarks folder.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

Why? Because it used to be that way?

Well... yes in a way. After all it wouldn't be right to change Command-Q into something else in a system update.

But UI conservatism aside, it doesn't make any particular sense to make Cmd-N open a new Finder window, since it is just as often used in various apps to create a new document or object. A folder in the Finder's case.

Cmd-N means 'create new object' in most cases. Now in the OS X Finder it just means 'make a new window'. That's not an object. It makes sense in browsers, like Safari, but the Finder isn't a browser. Apple made the Finder some strange hybrid between browser and spatial oriented system.

If the Finder was a browser, then I'd concede that Cmd-N should open a new window. If you use the Finder mostly as a browser it might make sense to you personally, but looking at the Finder as a whole, it doesn't make sense.

Which is why I've changed Cmd-N to be 'make new folder' for my Mac. And wonder what the heck Apple engineers were smoking when they made the current Finder and changed this behavior from the older system.

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

I really don't know what OS you're referring to. I don't remember the finder in os 8/9 being any better. (Granted, my memory of os 8/9 is getting more and more fuzzy.)

The UI of the old Finder was superior and it actually multithreaded much better than even the current Finder does. It behaved intuitively and consistently. It was the work of many many years, so that's no small wonder.

All that was thrown out for gloss when the OS X Finder was made. Also no wonder it doesn't compare very well (IMO of course)

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I was talking entirely about the interface.

Also, I've addressed the Cmd-N discussion above. Both sides have merit. I can see why Apple would choose their way and prefer it that way. Cmd-Shift-N is no less convenient to me for the once a week I use it.

Fair enough, I mean it doesn't bother me that much anyway since I just change it to suit my preference. I don't create many folders either, but that's mostly because I don't use the Finder (almost at all) because it is that bad.

Why use the Finder when one can just as well use the file selector, the recent-items submenu and Spotlight, right?

Though I'd use the Finder if it was any good. It's just a waste of time to use that 'interface' Apple insists on tormenting us with. So the ad-hoc alternatives (such as the one's I mentioned above) actually come off as more appealing than using the *actual* Finder.

That is bad design.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The Finder remembered window positions and only allowed a folder to be open in one window at a time. It was more consistent WITH ITS OWN INTERNAL METAPHOR, not particularly with anything else.

Given that your claim is true (for argument's sake), then at least the OS 9 Finder was consistent with *something*, if only itself. The OS X Finder is consistent with lala-land perhaps.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Aside from the Finder, OS 9's interface was in NO WAY superior to OS X's - no, pop-up windows were not consistent with anything and not faster than a folder in today's Dock, even when you WEREN'T busy re-doing them because they'd shifted or lost their size or just refused to open.

The Dock moves around and plays games with you when you miss the folder you're dragging an item to while the pop-up windows stood still, the Dock only allows folders on one side while the pop-up windows could be placed where you wanted and ghost stories about shifting or resized pop-up windows is ... not true. It's a ghost story. Boo.

In fact, pop-up windows were the least of OS 9 interface features. Consistency and intuitive interface with perfect spatiality was no.1 of it's features. Better multithreading than OS X Finder too.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Also, nobody seems to remember that the interface was so cluttered by OS 9 that the multiple folder view options started getting weird.
When you had a folder open (spatial referential eenie-oonie-wannah yeah it remembered its position) and opened up its parent folder in LIST view, the folder-only-in-a-single-window rule required that the folder window closed on you the second you (perhaps accidentally) clicked on its disclosure triangle in the parent window.

…but at least it was consistent.

Yes it was consistent. And when you're defending the atrocious OS X Finder then consistency is naturally a cussword.

The example you drag out is really far fetched, by the way. You know that. I know that. Who are you kidding?

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Completely bone-headed for file management requirements of 1999, but consistent with itself.

Well here in 2010 we have file management so bone-headed that I can't even use it to any effective degree and there is actually a market for a Finder alternative! People use the Terminal instead of the Finder for serious work.

OS X could have had the OS 9 Finder (plus new things like Expose et al) and the Terminal and perhaps a dedicated browser app for those who desire such a thing. Instead the Frankenfinder combines the silliest things from spatial and browser environments and satisfies no-one.

It's a bad browser and atrocious spatial Finder. Hence its massive accolades. (no, there aren't any)

[P]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Duly noted. This thread has already meandered widely, anyway, since the actual subject - resizable window borders - really is of interest to no more than three people here.

Actually, I think that gradient won the thread already, so we can steer it where we want.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That the "new window" command should be in the "Windows" menu makes sense - on the surface. (Please read on further down for more on that before replying to this point.)

The Finder is about document management. It is, in essence, an entire app dedicated to "filing". It is as much about working with folders as it is about working with multiple windows, file transactions, and browsing/searching for documents.

Saying it's all "about working with folders" is like saying that a telephone is "about pushing buttons".

It's actually called the "FINDer".

I think the term Finder comes from the small viewer on a camera or telescope that you look in to find your object roughly before you use the main function of the camera or telescope.

Anyway: In the original Mac paradigm, a window is always backed by something: A document window is backed by a file on the HD (On the original Mac this was more obvious, as all dialog boxes etc had a significantly different appearance). A Finder window is backed by a folder somewhere. You can't create a window without some sort of backing for it. That is my complaint for the entire concept. The web browser breaks this, because it's essentially a read-only app, and confuses the issue by reusing the shortcut and placing it in a bad location.

A better way then is to use the Go menu and make sure that it always opens a new window. If you want to change your current window to that location, you have enough buttons for that inside the window.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Its primary function is file browsing, and that is window-based, which is to say, like it or not, that's what Apple decided ten years ago, and IMO it's the far more appropriate approach to "modern-day computing", as the term has been bandied about.

I understand the reason for a browser, and yes there is a difference between 1980s usage scenarios, where most files you had were created by you, and today, where most files you have were created by someone else. However, the evolution didn't stop with the browser window. The newest window style is CoverFlow, which really doesn't work well with the browser concept. The growing idea seems to be to not use the Finder for browsing at all, and rather to find your files with specialized programs like iPhoto and iTunes. The browsing concept, which is receding in relevance, is unnecessarily interfering with the filing concept.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I stopped reading at "in Windows". Windows implements a fundamentally broken version of "cut" and paste when you press Ctrl-X in the Explorer.

Whether Microsoft gets something right or wrong is a matter of chance, not coherent design.

Well, it's where the entire file browsing concept came from, so the comparison is apt.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

If your logic held true and Cmd-N necessarily and naturally meant creation of a new folder in the Finder, then why doesn't Cmd-N create a new bookmark or bookmark folder in Safari?

That's not the same thing. A bookmark is a pointer to something - an alias, link or shortcut in OS lingo - rather than an independent entity.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Incorrect.

The "File" menu follows the hierarchy of being the next item below global (Apple) and application-wide (Application menu). If the application is document-centric, it concerns document management. If the application is window-centric, it concerns windows. (And it's followed by the "Edit" menu, which concerns selections within the document/window.)

All the other commands in that menu are concerned with files. You open a file, you save a file, you can make aliases and duplicates of files, etc. Everything except the New Window.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Your real beef is with the fact that the Finder is a window-centric application, rather than a document-centric one. Which in a sense it never was, as it ALWAYS offered management only, and NEVER actual document creation/saving.

It's perfectly document-centric if you consider the folder to be the Finder's document. On UFS, a folder even IS a file technically - a list of files belonging to that directory.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It brings it in line with the behavior of every other app out there - Cmd-N opens a new window. Whether that new window contains a new document, a new browser, a new server connection (cyberduck), or whatever else doesn't really matter to the user.

It's a new window of whatever-this-app-deals-with.

That doesn't make sense. A window doesn't have any value on it's own, and today they are opened for all sorts of reasons. Only this browser has windows for bookmarks, add-ons, preferences. Cmd-N only shows me one of those windows. A more complex app like Word, Excel, Photoshop has hundreds of different windows. A window is a much more general term than what you are referring to. It has become such because of the breaking of the document-window link.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The trade-off, of course, is that iPhoto and iTunes break this line of thought. Compromise abounds. But by all rights, Cmd-N in the Finder should create a new DOCUMENT and ask me which app to use to create one. Deigning Cmd-N to create a new folder is completely arbitrary and as justifiable as using Cmd-N to create a new Bookmark or bookmarks folder.

It isn't, really, because the folder is the Finder's document. Assigning Cmd-N to a New command like the Windows one (where you pick a document or a folder to create in that spot) is certainly better than assigning it to New Window, though. Too bad that Apple broke the type/creator system that would have been an excellent way to implement that feature.

[Spheric Harlot]

Voodoo's in; I'm out.

I worked through all that crap ten years ago. I don't need a re-run with added chest-thumping.

Gradient, submit it as a feature request. It won't happen, but why not?

Edit: P, you make some good points.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Voodoo's in; I'm out.

tl;dr

Apple isn't infallable, and hardly recognizable in the UI department since the return of Steve. Gloss wins every time over usability and consistency these days. Heck even the screens are glossy now.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Duly noted. This thread has already meandered widely, anyway, since the actual subject - resizable window borders - really is of interest to no more than three people here.

Why do you keep on saying things that you have no idea whether they are true or not? Are you a Republican?

[cla]

I for one would be interested in discussing the possibility of moving window manipulation to a semi-mode.

I'm also looking forward to seeing the Snow Leopard QT Player interface evolve.

[lpkmckenna]

The lack of all-edges window resizing is the most embarrassing UI issue for the Mac. It's indefensible, and with the often funky behaviour of the zoom button, just drives away potential switchers from the platform.

I like the 3-corners idea; very nice.

[Kingmeyya]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I have to agree with Spheric - I hope not.

One can click the green blob or manually resize. It is reasonable.

You could also petition to move the 'close window' blob to the right hand corner. Or even have a 'close window' blob in every corner! That would save time.

Also scrollbars on all sides.

Sometimes less is more.

How do you mannually resize a window,is it possible to do it the way it is don in Microsoft Windows?

[Simon]

Sure, grab the bottom right hand corner of a window and drag to wherever you want. The difference is that on a Mac you can only drag there. You can't drag borders.

[abbaZaba]

I've wanted this for a long time but I've never spoken up until now.

Spheric: do you honestly think that the people who want this is limited to "three people on a tech forum"? you would have to be absolutely dense to think that a Windows user has used OS X, tried to resize a window, and never thought "damn why can't I resize with the borders?" that's plain stupid.

edit: maybe I'm late in expressing this opinion but I didn't feel like reading all his stupid posts/arguments against border-resizing in this thread. just wanted to toss my opinion in.

[Simon]

"Only three people want that" is the last resort used on forums like these when some people come up with a good idea and some other people realize Apple hasn't done it yet.

If Apple can do no wrong but somebody succeeds in pointing out that they have indeed missed something, the obvious conclusion is that they've not done it because nobody wants it. Of course the OP is usually evidence to the contrary, so then the final statement is that only three people want said feature. And those three people are stupid anyway. Bottom line: Apple is infallible.

[Spheric Harlot]

No: Bottom line is "Just because people are used to it doesn't mean it's a good idea."

Apple can and does do wrong.

(See my comments on disk images elsewhere)

FWIW (anecdotal), I've had *dozens* of people ask me about a full-screen mode like Windows', but nobody has EVER asked about resizing windows by their borders. And full-screen mode on the Mac is the *last* thing we want (except for media display, obviously).

[Simon]

Actually, I'd like an option to resize a window to full screen. The green button's "intelligence" rarely works for me. Bottom line I don't use it. So IMHO they can either use it for full screen or do away with it entirely.

[Good you brought up Disk Images, Spheric. That reminds me of a post I've been wanting to write for ages.]

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

[Good you brought up Disk Images, Spheric. That reminds me of a post I've been wanting to write for ages.]

Here's one I wrote up ages ago:

Originally Posted by analogika

disk images are a rather unhappy situation, in that they need to be explained:

A disk image is a document that pretends to be a volume (like a CD-ROM) when you open it. It's used mostly for program distribution, and the concept is the same as a CD-ROM: Insert CD-ROM (mount disk image so the volume appears on desktop), install software from there, eject volume, and throw it away (or put it aside, or whatever).

So usually, you install an app by dragging it off the disk image into the applications folder (or double-clicking a package installer for drivers and such), and then eject the volume and trash/archive the dmg file.

Seen that way, it makes sense - it's just not terribly intuitive for the new user.


If I remember correctly: Originally, a disk image file should have been able to contain scripts that would automatically copy or install the relevant content onto your disk and then unmount and trash the .dmg. This was very quickly discovered to be a rather obvious gaping security hole and subsequently discouraged, leading to the situation we have today.

[P]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

FWIW (anecdotal), I've had *dozens* of people ask me about a full-screen mode like Windows', but nobody has EVER asked about resizing windows by their borders. And full-screen mode on the Mac is the *last* thing we want (except for media display, obviously).

++ on this. The first they ask is how to maximize something. I tell them to press the green button, and they can still see some stuff outside the Safari window. Well, yes, it's not really a maximize, you see. But you can resize the window to be as large as you like.

[Big Mac]

Windows default to full screen is so annoying. The fact that some like it means they are habitual single-taskers.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Actually, I'd like an option to resize a window to full screen. The green button's "intelligence" rarely works for me. Bottom line I don't use it. So IMHO they can either use it for full screen or do away with it entirely.

I just discovered that fortunately somebody has already fixed this.

RightZoom is a free little app that runs in the background (no hack, no SIMBLE or AE, etc.) and forces the green button to maximize windows. There's a list to include/exclude certain apps. Works like a charm.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

RightZoom is a free little app that runs in the background (no hack, no SIMBLE or AE, etc.) and forces the green button to maximize windows. There's a list to include/exclude certain apps. Works like a charm.

Um…

a green button will always maximize your windows to all available screen space instead of inconvenient resizing.

Sorry, but that's not "fixed".

That's just locked into permanent brokenness.

Full-screen view in apps that aren't in an actual "display" mode is just *broken*. Proper zoom button behavior is "resize to fit CONTENT".

[P]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Windows default to full screen is so annoying. The fact that some like it means they are habitual single-taskers.

Windows doesn't particularly default to fullscreen - the explorer, IE, all the accessories default to windows smaller than fullscreen. Office, however, defaults to fullscreen, even overriding the user setting (if set on a shortcut file) to do so. This is quite annoying - I usually do not want apps like Word to be maximized, but there is no way to set that. Even sillier is the Office picture viewer - which competes with the Windows one, btw - which acts the same way, yet opens pictures at 100%. Open a small picture, and you get a big gray window with a tiny picture in it. I can understand that an app like Excel is meant to run fullscreen (it's still an MDM app), but many of the others shouldn't be.

[OreoCookie]

It's more of a habit that most Windows users maximize Windows. Something that wastes tons of space: nobody needs a 1600 pixels wide browser window. I think it's habitual: Windows doesn't handle multiple Windows well (perhaps Windows Vista and 7 are different, I haven't really used them) and thus people who are used to Windows aren't used to using windows side-by-side.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It's more of a habit that most Windows users maximize Windows. Something that wastes tons of space: nobody needs a 1600 pixels wide browser window.

It amuses me to no end to walk up to the demo Mac Pro, only to find that some switcher has maximised the Address Book - on a 30" Cinema display.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

The Green button is absolutely terrible.

I don't know if I've ever pressed it and had the window do what I wanted it to. There's nothing more annoying than opening something in Preview and pressing Meximize and having the window grow only 15% larger, and then having to finish the rest of the resizing off manually. Ugh.

greg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Meximize

OS X totally needs this button

[P]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

The Green button is absolutely terrible.

I don't know if I've ever pressed it and had the window do what I wanted it to. There's nothing more annoying than opening something in Preview and pressing Meximize and having the window grow only 15% larger, and then having to finish the rest of the resizing off manually. Ugh.

greg

There is some point to this. I prefer the content aware zoom, but I don't think I ever use that button - dragging the window edges isn't exactly hard. If Apple were to make option-click or even right-click do content-aware zoom and a straight click do maximize or some version thereof, I could live with that.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Sorry, but that's not "fixed".

That's just locked into permanent brokenness.

Why so dogmatic?

In my experience the green button was most often "broken". So I ended up preferring it maximized rather than tried to guess what I might want to see and then proceed to show me something I didn't want to see. In some cases maximize is exactly what I want. So yes, in those cases this tool has fixed my problem.

You are free to prefer other behavior on your Mac, but please don't make the mistake to think that you're in the position to lecture me on what's broken on my Mac.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It's more of a habit that most Windows users maximize Windows. Something that wastes tons of space: nobody needs a 1600 pixels wide browser window.

That's correct. However, just because it's used in a bad way by some people some of the time, does not immediately equate it's never appropriate to use it.

Why did I spend $2k back in the day for my 23" ACD? Certainly not to view my 12 MP images cropped in a 600x400 window meanwhile giving me an awesome view of my desktop background all around. Heck no, I want everything but the menu bar and the window frame dedicated to displaying that 12 MP image. Or when I'm digging up dirt in my FS, why would I not want the Finder's browser window to concurrently display eight levels of hierarchy I can drill down into and back up again?

There are ample situations where I'm doing one task at one time and I want as much screen space dedicated to that task as possible at that time. Unfortunately the green button rarely helped me do that. Thanks to RightClick it now does.

For the more dogmatic among you, let me note that RightClick also has an option to make the green button behave like it usually does (if that is what you want) and only maximize when you hold opt/alt.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I don't know if I've ever pressed it and had the window do what I wanted it to. There's nothing more annoying than opening something in Preview and pressing Meximize and having the window grow only 15% larger, and then having to finish the rest of the resizing off manually. Ugh.

Exactly.

I'm not opposed to content-aware zooming. But if it doesn't work it sucks. Kind of like communism. The idea sounds awesome. Problem is it doesn't work.

That's why I like the RightClick approach. It gives me a choice of content-aware zooming or force maximize.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It amuses me to no end to walk up to the demo Mac Pro, only to find that some switcher has maximised the Address Book - on a 30" Cinema display.

It's so deeply ingrained. To these people, the way devices like the iPad work must be closer to the way they work and think.

[Wiskedjak]

Border resizable windows need not have a visible border in order to be resizable. All they need is a clickable area no more than 5 pixels wide where the cursor changes to the left/right or up/down resizable cursor.

But, what I really want is a true Maximize-window-to-fill-the-screen control. You can make fun all you want of people who don't work the way you do (I may not need a 1600 pixel wide browser window, but a 1280 wide browser window is nice). Mostly, though, I just want to remove the distraction of all the other windows behind the one I'm working in (and no, I don't want to Hide Others or Minimize because that requires extra effort: hidden windows aren't visible in Expose and minimizing windows requires me to hit the tiny yellow button to minimize). Better Touch Tool offers a windows maximization control that I use all the time and I know several long-time Mac users that like it as well.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It's more of a habit that most Windows users maximize Windows. Something that wastes tons of space: nobody needs a 1600 pixels wide browser window. I think it's habitual: Windows doesn't handle multiple Windows well (perhaps Windows Vista and 7 are different, I haven't really used them) and thus people who are used to Windows aren't used to using windows side-by-side.

Who cares if it wastes space? If I need windows side-by-side, I'll place them that way. But, what's wrong with the ability to focus on one window? I don't think this is a exclusively a switcher issue ... I know *many* long-time Mac users who share this complaint.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Who cares if it wastes space? If I need windows side-by-side, I'll place them that way. But, what's wrong with the ability to focus on one window? I don't think this is a exclusively a switcher issue ... I know *many* long-time Mac users who share this complaint.

I don't.

The Mac is fundamentally *based* around drag and drop.

By unnecessarily blocking off access to and view of other windows, you are stripping the interface of its depth and removing the most important visual clue to its very most-basic functionality.

Exposé helps, and expert users know what to do, but even among long-time users, I find that their involvedness in specifics sometimes precludes their view for things that can be much simpler.

I import audio into Logic via drag-and-drop almost exclusively.

High-end, huh?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Who cares if it wastes space? If I need windows side-by-side, I'll place them that way. But, what's wrong with the ability to focus on one window? I don't think this is a exclusively a switcher issue ... I know *many* long-time Mac users who share this complaint.

Of course and rightly so. Because people want a choice. Sometimes you want maximize behavior and sometimes you want content-aware zoom.

It's a shame alt/opt-green button doesn't maximize. That way everybody would be happy. Fortunately RightZoom does exactly that. It does seem to have an issue with Rosetta apps though.