[Le Flaneur]

Has anyone compared iPhone contracts in Europe to those offered in the US by AT&T? The 3GS hasn't been announced yet, but Orange in France offers the 8 GB 3G for 99 euros (which is really the psychological equivalent of $99) and the 16 GB model for 129 euros. Again, this was true BEFORE Apple announced the 3GS. Now onto the plans.



Look at the 47 euro plan (again, for the French, it's really the equivalent of $47). You get:

- 2 h of talk time to anyone
- unused minutes roll over to the following month
- unlimited talk time to 3 Orange subscribers
- unlimited data
- 10 SMS per month included (before you laugh, AT&T includes nothing)

Right now, as a promotion, they're taking off an additional 3 euros per month! And you can pay 10% more per month in exchange for only a 12-month commitment.

And before anyone balks at the relatively short monthly talk time allowance, bear in mind that in Europe, received calls don't count toward your talk time, nor does voicemail checking.

Does anyone else think we're getting screwed in the US?

[Simon]

Sure US customers are being screwed. I blame it on AT&T and the US cellular business (the European or Asian counterparts are far more competitive).

In Sweden people paid $200 more for the device but they got an 18 month contract with unlimited 3G and 2h of voice for about $40.

In Germany the devices were as cheap as they were in the US, but unlimited 3G and 2h of voice was €40 instead of $70. And keep in mind those Euro prices contain 20%-25% VAT whereas prices in $ usually don't contain sales tax.

Also, voice minutes in Europe are only your outgoing calls. Incoming calls (except for roaming) are always free (the caller pays for cellular termination). That's why US plans usually have more voice minutes included.

[The Godfather]

Last time I checked, 1 Euro is 40% more valuable than 1 dollar. There's a reason they are getting more service: they are getting raped in the wallet on hardware price.

[Simon]

The German 16GB iPhone 3G was €250 EUR including a 19% VAT. Subtract the VAT and you're at €210 compared to the $299 US price. IOW, the device was actually $5 cheaper in Germany.

[ort888]

What is 2h? 200?

That must be a European thing.

[Dakar V]

2 hours, I was thinking.

[Simon]

Yep.

[Jerome]

If you think Americans are getting ripped off, don't come here in Canada...

[turtle777]

Europeans get ripped off on the voice plans.

4h talktime for EUR 62 (24 mo. contract) ?

Compare AT&T: Nation 900 plan for $ 60 (before taxes) = EUR 43.
* 15 hrs talktime
* unlimited night and weekend minutes
* rollover

Yes, you're gonna say that in the US, you also pay for incoming calls.
Ok, divide the 15 hrs by half.

So, who again is getting ripped off ?

-t

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Europeans get ripped off on the voice plans.

4h talktime for EUR 62 (24 mo. contract) ?

Compare AT&T: Nation 900 plan for $ 60 (before taxes) = EUR 43.
* 15 hrs talktime
* unlimited night and weekend minutes
* rollover

Yes, you're gonna say that in the US, you also pay for incoming calls.
Ok, divide the 15 hrs by half.

So, who again is getting ripped off ?

We are. That EUR 43 plan includes data and all taxes. Your Nation 900 plan with data is over $100/month including taxes.

[turtle777]

Sorry, my bad. Incl. unlimited data plan, the cost is $ 90 / EUR 64.

So for EUR 2 more, I get
* 11 hrs more talktime
* unlimited night and weekend minutes

I feel ripped off.

-t

[Koralatov]

Well, it would appear that we in the UK are getting the short end of the stick in regards to the new iPhone. We’re paying ~$300 for the 16GB model, and tethering is another ~$25 a month.

[bokehphotographer]

If one dollar were equal to one euro, I might say they are getting ripped off. But I see a lot of people have already corrected that mistake - as it stands the euro is a bit more than the dollar...

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by bokehphotographer 

If one dollar were equal to one euro, I might say they are getting ripped off. But I see a lot of people have already corrected that mistake - as it stands the euro is a bit more than the dollar...

Euros are psychologically like dollars. In other words, you think of the price as higher than Europeans do because you're converting it into dollars, but they aren't.

[Simon]

Again, Swedes enjoy unlimited data and about 2h of voice for about $39 a month. AT&T's plans suck donkey balls compared to that.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Again, Swedes enjoy unlimited data and about 2h of voice for about $39 a month. AT&T's plans suck donkey balls compared to that.

I don't necessarily follow your logic.
See, it all depends on how much you value the free evening and weekend minutes.

So, for $ 10, you get 2 hrs talktime in Sweden, equals $ 0.08 / min.
AT&T offers a $ 40 plan with 450 daytime minutes (@ $ 0.09 / min) +(!!!) 5000 night/weekend mins.

How again is the Swedish plan cheaper ?

Yes, if you want a barebones data plan w/o talktime, the Swedes rule. It's just not what the majority of the US users want / need.

-t

[Simon]

But it's what a majority of iPhone users need. Anybody else could just get any cheap cell phone.

And of course in Sweden nobody needs minutes for receiving calls.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

But it's what a majority of iPhone users need. Anybody else could just get any cheap cell phone.

Here in the US ? I don't see that.

And comparing pricing models w/o regard to local customs (like usage) doesn't make sense.

Also, one thing that nobody factors into this discussion:
In Europe, receiving calls are free for the cell phone user, the bill is paid by the landline user.
But nobody wants to make this calculation: calls from European landlines to cell phones cost a lot of money, compared to the US where you get it almost for free.

-t

[Simon]

IMHO you're trying to come up with excuse for AT&T.

Those people that actually *really* need all those minutes are better off in Sweden as well. $62 buys them unlimited voice. No matter how you spin it Americans are getting screwed by AT&T compared to Telia's customers in Sweden. So why don't we just cut the crap?

[Simon]

Oh and did I mention those $62 also include unlimited SMS and MMS? Just in case you had any doubts.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

You're trying to come up with excuse for AT&T.

No, I'm refuting a freaking silly argument.

Cell phones (incl. plans and usage) are NOT cheaper in Europe, at least not in general.
Yes, you'd always find some plan and user group that gets a slightly better deal, but to conclude that "American cellphone subscribers [are] getting ripped off" is just silly.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Oh and did I mention those $62 also include unlimited SMS and MMS?

No, you didn't. That might be useful for some (teens), and less useful for others (mee, who only uses limited SMS). Again, it's a preference, but far from constituting "being ripped off".

-t

[Simon]

Actually, it's American iPhone customers that are being ripped off. Those with cheap phones or those on other networks than AT&T's are doing better.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

IMHO you're trying to come up with excuse for AT&T.

Those people that actually *really* need all those minutes are better off in Sweden as well. $62 buys them unlimited voice.

So WTF, you find ONE country that is cheaper than AT&T, and you use your twisted reverse logic to proclaim that "American cellphone subscribers getting ripped off".



-t

[Simon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

No, you didn't. That might be useful for some (teens), and less useful for others (mee, who only uses limited SMS). Again, it's a preference, but far from constituting "being ripped off".

So how much are you paying for unlimited voice and data? $62? No? Right, not quite... Not even frickin close. I know. Just what I'm talking about.

[turtle777]

Ah, whatever, I'm getting ripped off, but I don't give a sh!t.

Btw, when are you moving to Sweden ?

-t

[Simon]

Actually, there are several such examples in Europe.

There's no use debating it. Everybody knows that the US cell phone market is less competitive than the Asian or European markets. The sooner Americans notice, the better. There's no inherent reason we should have to put up with less than the others are getting.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Btw, when are you moving to Sweden ?

Oh kiddo.

[turtle777]

Oh geeze. Simon the fanboi ?

-t

[Simon]

Huh?

I didn't know turtles had hats but I could swear I hear one eating his.

[Andy8]

Here are prices in Hong Kong

1USD = ~ 7.8HKD

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Actually, there are several such examples in Europe.

There's no use debating it. Everybody knows that the US cell phone market is less competitive than the Asian or European markets. The sooner Americans notice, the better. There's no inherent reason we should have to put up with less than the others are getting.

Of course there are several such examples. The US cellphone market isn't competitive at all because the playing field isn't level: there are how many different communication protocols? 3? And each network signs exclusive deals with cellphone manufacturers? Apple tried to sign an exclusive arrangement with Orange in France, but the other networks filed complaints saying that this was anticompetitive, and the government sided with them. Result? You can purchase an iPhone from no fewer than 3 competing GSM network providers. Furthermore, French laws *require* that network providers unlock phones after 6 months, and in certain countries such as Belgium, it is actually forbidden to sell locked phones.

Now let's take the US: even if you purchase an unsubsidized iPhone 3GS for $599 and $699, you're still forced to use it on AT&T's network. Why do American consumers tolerate this?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Le Flaneur 

Now let's take the US: even if you purchase an unsubsidized iPhone 3GS for $599 and $699, you're still forced to use it on AT&T's network. Why do American consumers tolerate this?

Of course it would be better to get an unlocked iPhone, but I just don't see how bad AT&T is.

I've been very happy with my iPhone and AT&T.

If I really needed to get an unlocked iPhone, I'd buy it in Europe. The unlocked 8GB version cost EUR 400, right ? Awesome deal

-t

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Of course it would be better to get an unlocked iPhone, but I just don't see how bad AT&T is.

Let's see: poor customer service ratings (what's the wait time when you want to reach them?), huge bureaucracy, doesn't unlock its phones (T-Mobile does after 90 days), no tethering, ridiculously high plan costs for the iPhone (starting at $80/month including tax).

[NaddyMac]

meh, I've stopped relying on AT&T since they keep screwing us with the bills. Now we have to pay em every month for the service they terminated -THREE- months ago. Since we were under contract. Never trust frikin Cell services in the US no more =\

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Le Flaneur 

Let's see: poor customer service ratings (what's the wait time when you want to reach them?), huge bureaucracy, doesn't unlock its phones (T-Mobile does after 90 days), no tethering, ridiculously high plan costs for the iPhone (starting at $80/month including tax).

Never had any of theses issues, except no tethering.

I don't think the plan costs are too high. But whatever. Someone is always gonna find something too expensive.

-t

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Le Flaneur 

Euros are psychologically like dollars.

Europeans can't spend "psychological Euros". They can only spend Euros the have. And last time I checked they earned less Euros than Americans Dollars on average. A lot less.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Europeans can't spend "psychological Euros". They can only spend Euros the have. And last time I checked they earned less Euros than Americans Dollars on average. A lot less.

Minor detail. You can't expect that everyone factors those things into their discussion.

-t

[JKT]

I think it is safe to say that all the service providers the world over are screwing their customers in one way or another. E.g. I have to pay for 600 minutes per month on my contract with O2 yet I barely even use 60 the vast majority of the time. However, I get unlimited data and a hefty number of SMSs which is what I need. In contrast, the cheaper plan that is closer to my voice needs is terrible for both its price (much too expensive relative to the one I'm on) and everything else (SMS, etc). I can guarantee that there isn't a plan out there that suits the majority of people for their actual needs while delivering value for money at the same time. If you are completely satisfied with your price plan on whichever service provider you are on, I imagine you are one of a very lucky few.

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Europeans can't spend "psychological Euros". They can only spend Euros the have. And last time I checked they earned less Euros than Americans Dollars on average. A lot less.

My point is that the cost of European cellphone network provider plans hasn't increased for Europeans as the dollar has weakened ;-)

[anthology123]

What people here need to understand is the wireless phone business in the US is different that the rest of the world. In most of the world, wireless companies compete head to head with each other to get customers. In the US, the wireless companies get territory over the US. That's why all the small wireless comps got all bought up, its the only way to increase the coverage for a company and why it is down to 3 significant companies (ATT, Verizon, Sprint). They don't have to compete with each other. There are places in the US where ATT is better, where Verizon is better and where Sprint is better) there is some overlap, but don't expect them to have equal coverage unless the rules are changed.

[Spheric Harlot]

This thread is extremely enlightening.


In fact, I've learned that in EVERY COUNTRY, cellphone subscribers have the feeling they're getting ripped off.


And the best thing is, they almost all are. I know we are. But in the grand scheme of rip-off pricing, the iPhone subscriptions are fairly okay for what they offer, here in Germany. Except I'd do fine with the €69 tariff but for the fact that my calls to cellphones would then amount to about €90 a month EXTRA. So I get the €89/month plan, which isn't really a justified sum of money just for being available, but it's only €10 more than I pay now, and I get a subsidized 32G iPhone for €50 down payment, so what the hell.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

If I really needed to get an unlocked iPhone, I'd buy it in Europe. The unlocked 8GB version cost EUR 400, right ? Awesome deal

€500.

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by anthology123 

What people here need to understand is the wireless phone business in the US is different that the rest of the world. In most of the world, wireless companies compete head to head with each other to get customers. In the US, the wireless companies get territory over the US. That's why all the small wireless comps got all bought up, its the only way to increase the coverage for a company and why it is down to 3 significant companies (ATT, Verizon, Sprint). They don't have to compete with each other. There are places in the US where ATT is better, where Verizon is better and where Sprint is better) there is some overlap, but don't expect them to have equal coverage unless the rules are changed.

Not only that, but each uses a different and incompatible wireless protocol. And companies are allowed to establish exclusive contracts with hardware manufacturers, which is anticompetitive as was decided in France, where all three big providers now are able to carry the iPhone.

[Le Flaneur]

Turtle777 and others don't seem to understand what is wrong with the American cellphone provider market:

1) Why can't I purchase the phone that I want and use it with the carrier that I want? I thought that this was the country of economic competition and the free market?!

2) If I purchase a subsidized phone and complete all the payments under the contracted service plan, why isn't the phone then free for use with other carriers?

Why isn't there more outcry about this?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Le Flaneur 

Turtle777 and others don't seem to understand what is wrong with the American cellphone provider market:

1) Why can't I purchase the phone that I want and use it with the carrier that I want? I thought that this was the country of economic competition and the free market?!

Because in a free market, anybody is free to partner with anybody else, as long as the market will bear it and it isn't anti-competitive and monopolistic - which is obviously up for debate.

As neither AT&T nor the iPhone have anything *near* a market monopoly, they're free to choose whatever marketing model helps them keep initial price low and move as many devices/contracts as they think they can.

If you bought an iPhone anyway, you're proving them right and making their model possible.

Welcome to capitalism.

Originally Posted by Le Flaneur 

2) If I purchase a subsidized phone and complete all the payments under the contracted service plan, why isn't the phone then free for use with other carriers?

AT&T won't unlock your phones after the two years' contract expires?

[Le Flaneur]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Because in a free market, anybody is free to partner with anybody else, as long as the market will bear it and it isn't anti-competitive and monopolistic - which is obviously up for debate.

In France, this behavior was judged anticompetitive, and Apple was ordered to allow all three carriers to sell the iPhone.

AT&T won't unlock your phones after the two years' contract expires?

No -- never. Incredible, isn't it?