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Slave · Nov 20, 2003, 02:24 PM

Okay, I've been reading the MacNN forums for some time now. I used to be a Mac zealot, if you will, some time ago owning a few of the much earlier models, i.e. Classic II. To my dismay I was ripped from the Macintosh world not long after first getting used to it, luckily though I've had ample chance to return to the beloved platform. So I've decided on a Desktop, as I need the machine to replace a current computer and a configured PowerBook will take to long to get here in Australia. Lucky I waited a few days before ordering as we've now experienced the price drop, I'm still set on getting the 2.0 (please no bashing). So here is what it should be...

Standard dual 2.0 setup, 9800Pro, BT Module, 2.5GB (2GB from Crucial), 20 inch Display.

I've a few questions regarding the system as a whole, I recently 'made contact' with one of these beauties, I was impressed, yet unfortunately I think I got the guy who made it out of Salesman school with the lowest possible grade. So I left the store with my questions almost unanswered and maybe some more regarding his credibility but enough about him, he was silly, on with the Mac!

Firstly, who do Apple use for their HDD (i.e. Seagate, WD etc.) I have come to believe the 160GB drives are Seagates but SG don't manufacture 250GB drives so I'm wondering who they are? Secondly, when at the store, the 160GB drive was making some clicking sounds whenever it read and or wrote to the disk, now the thing is... I felt like I was back in the 90s, I thought it was a joke (but didn't want to say anything as I knew he'd try and tell me it was standard amongst supposedly 'the quietest HDDs'. Anyway, is this a common fault (ending up with a noisy Barracuda) or a one off and would it be a valid enough reason to seek a replacement, if it is common enough and won't be replaced I'd be willing to just up to a 250GB (if not a Seagate) to reduce the risk of getting stuck with a clicker.

Okay, that's point number one out of the way. This one will be quick, firstly coming from a very X86 orientated back ground, I'm wondering (this was met with "What is a BIOS?" by the way) if the G5 boards have an accessible BIOS as I'm very hardware orientated (I'm intrigued by the RAM timing issue).

This discussion was hilarious, I asked for some specifications regarding the twenty inch display and he couldn't speak more highly of the display, yet nothing was answered (great for him). Okay, so first off who are Apple using to supply the LCD panel in their 20 inch displays and also what are the response times and can one expect a noticeable amount of ghosting in games (shall be playing mainly those of the first person shooter flavour and maybe some Warcraft III?

This one is purely aesthetic but I noticed, when at the store, there were two models of snow white corded keyboards there, one was slightly bulkier than the other (i.e. one looked more like the wireless BT keyboard but with wires where as the other's frame seemed to extend beyond the keys) just wondering which comes with the G5, I liked the look of the less bulky one hehe.

Oh one last thing is a DVI to VGA (i.e. using a CRT on the DVI port) included? Just have a spare G420 lying around now, so wouldn't mind whacking that on, esp. for PS work & does ApppleCare include anything besides the extended warranty and phone support? (As a student I get the extended warranty to 3 years, so I wouldn't worry about the phone stuff... but if there are some other handy things thrown in, I guess that's okay).

Thank you all very much in advance and I cannot wait to join the Mac community once again, final note didn�t want to seem to complain about the sales person, but I found it pretty amusing and almost frustrating.

Arkham_c · Nov 20, 2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Slave:
I've a few questions regarding the system as a whole, I recently 'made contact' with one of these beauties, I was impressed, yet unfortunately I think I got the guy who made it out of Salesman school with the lowest possible grade. So I left the store with my questions almost unanswered and maybe some more regarding his credibility but enough about him, he was silly, on with the Mac!

Firstly, who do Apple use for their HDD (i.e. Seagate, WD etc.) I have come to believe the 160GB drives are Seagates but SG don't manufacture 250GB drives so I'm wondering who they are? Secondly, when at the store, the 160GB drive was making some clicking sounds whenever it read and or wrote to the disk, now the thing is... I felt like I was back in the 90s, I thought it was a joke (but didn't want to say anything as I knew he'd try and tell me it was standard amongst supposedly 'the quietest HDDs'. Anyway, is this a common fault (ending up with a noisy Barracuda) or a one off and would it be a valid enough reason to seek a replacement, if it is common enough and won't be replaced I'd be willing to just up to a 250GB (if not a Seagate) to reduce the risk of getting stuck with a clicker.

I have a Seagate 160 in my G5. It does seem a bit too noisy to me, but it's not noticible if I have a game or music going. I have a friend with a 160 Seagate and he reports that his is very quiet.

Okay, that's point number one out of the way. This one will be quick, firstly coming from a very X86 orientated back ground, I'm wondering (this was met with "What is a BIOS?" by the way) if the G5 boards have an accessible BIOS as I'm very hardware orientated (I'm intrigued by the RAM timing issue).

Macs don't have BIOS. They use something called Open Firmware, which is an open standard, is a much more modern approach to bootstrapping a system.

This one is purely aesthetic but I noticed, when at the store, there were two models of snow white corded keyboards there, one was slightly bulkier than the other (i.e. one looked more like the wireless BT keyboard but with wires where as the other's frame seemed to extend beyond the keys) just wondering which comes with the G5, I liked the look of the less bulky one hehe.

The one that comes with the G5 is the "less bulky" one. It has the USB ports on the back rather than on the sides.

Oh one last thing is a DVI to VGA (i.e. using a CRT on the DVI port) included? Just have a spare G420 lying around now, so wouldn't mind whacking that on, esp. for PS work & does ApppleCare include anything besides the extended warranty and phone support? (As a student I get the extended warranty to 3 years, so I wouldn't worry about the phone stuff... but if there are some other handy things thrown in, I guess that's okay).

It's included.

Slave · Nov 20, 2003, 05:12 PM

Ah thank you so very much, cleared up all my questions but I've got another *evil laugh* as far as noise goes, is it a click like that on the older HDDs of the mid and late 90s? Thanks again

Slave · Nov 22, 2003, 10:17 AM

Sorry to "bump" my thread some what, anyway I spoke to my local AppleCentre, this time at a different location and with better staff, I was told the HDDs are manufactured by Hitachi in the G5s (I don't know if this guy was getting mixed up with the Notebooks or not) wondering if that's true & also regarding the 20 inch ACD, if anyone has one and plays many games on it have they experienced any easy to note ghosting (I've searched for specs on the things and I can't find anything regarding response times). Finally, any idea of who actually produces the LCD panels for the 20 inch, thanks again.

Eug · Nov 22, 2003, 10:44 AM

Apple uses all sorts of drives. You're not even guaranteed a specific brand for the SuperDrive.

I don't know who makes the 20" screen specifically, but Apple uses LG/Philips, Samsung, Chi Mei, etc.

The pixel response time on most of the Apple screens is OK now although not as fast as the ultra-fast gaming LCDs. I play a few games on a Samsung LCD and it's fine, and my particular model isn't known for being a good gaming LCD. If I look really hard, I can find some ghosting (eg. black background with fast moving red object), but I have to specifically look for it to see it.

Why didn't Apple choose the ultra-fast screens? Well, the slower screens tend to have better colours and contrast IMO.

zigzag · Nov 22, 2003, 12:25 PM

My dual came with a 160GB Seagate which is very quiet most of the time. It was rated as the quietest drive by these guys:

www.storagereview.com

Apple entered into an LCD manufacturing venture with Samsung a couple of years back, but I don't know if that means they get all of their screens from Samsung.

Slave · Nov 22, 2003, 02:09 PM

Okay thank you very much, it seems the G5s that the store I enquired at must've seen them come in with either the Hitachi 160Gb or 250GB drives, well unless they're using someone besides Hitachi for the 250GB it'd have to be as I don't think Seagate do them. Anyway, thanks for the links they were great reads. My biggest concern was ending up with a beautifully quiet Dual G5 then having it ruined by a clickety HDD, looks as though the machine in the store was very faulty. Thanks again!

Catfish_Man · Nov 22, 2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Slave:
Okay thank you very much, it seems the G5s that the store I enquired at must've seen them come in with either the Hitachi 160Gb or 250GB drives, well unless they're using someone besides Hitachi for the 250GB it'd have to be as I don't think Seagate do them. Anyway, thanks for the links they were great reads. My biggest concern was ending up with a beautifully quiet Dual G5 then having it ruined by a clickety HDD, looks as though the machine in the store was very faulty. Thanks again!

Yeah, noisy computers suck (glares at MDD G4 under desk). If your G5 is anything like the few I've used you'll love it, they're very quiet.

UpgradeManiac · Nov 22, 2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Slave:
... who do Apple use for their HDD (i.e. Seagate, WD etc.) I have come to believe the 160GB drives are Seagates but SG don't manufacture 250GB drives so I'm wondering who they are?

System Profiler lists my 250GB drive as a "Maxtor 6Y250M0" with the following details:

Capacity: 233.76 GB
Model: Maxtor 6Y250M0
Revision: YAR51FW0

I haven't heard any unusual clicks from my drive.

Originally posted by Slave:
... Oh one last thing is a DVI to VGA (i.e. using a CRT on the DVI port) included?

Boochie · Nov 22, 2003, 11:18 PM

I have the 17" Apple LCD display. Works great on first-person shooter games, no ghosting that I've seen. I'd hope that the 20" model (newer) would be as least as good.

Big Mac · Nov 23, 2003, 02:37 AM

I'm surprised it took so long for someone to mention Apple System Profiler. It lists the specifics for each component of your machine, and you can access it by going to About This Mac (in the Apple Menu) and then clicking More Info. Additionally, you may have been hearing the noises associated with the G5 processor napping. This was an issue discussed widely. Do a search for "CHUD" and you'll find the discussions about it as well as how to turn it off. Most G5 users have reported being bothered by the noise until they turned it off with the developer tool.

Cipher13 · Nov 23, 2003, 02:54 AM

Barracuda's are generally the quietest drives you can get, basically, so I wouldn't worry too much about the noise issue if you get one of those.

You can't be guaranteed a specific HD brand, however.

As for the LCDs, every single Apple LCD panel I've taken apart has been a Samsung. These were all laptop panels, though, not desktop panels. YMMV.

Slave · Nov 23, 2003, 07:07 PM

Thanks once again everyone, the help is wonderful! I went and checked out another machine yesterday, I put my ear right next to the HDD bay at the rear (although I guess some sound would've been distorted by the fan) but I couldn't hear much at all, although the sore was slightly noisier than the other. As far as being guaranteed a particular drive, it won't bother me too much as long as I know Apple nor their retailers consider 90s drives to be the norm. I'm going to check out a 15" PowerBook today, and I guess after that it's down to my final decision between the two... it will be interesting to say the least, might see if I can get the guys at the store to give me a demo of the back-lit keyboard haha ;-).

Slave · Nov 27, 2003, 11:59 AM

Well a few days ago I placed the order & deposit for the machine, I decided on the desktop for now... I might pick up a notebook as a secondary machine once I start university, of course depending on how things are going. Anyway the specifications are just the DP 2.0, with BT & the 9800Pro I should be ordering 1 or 2 GB of RAM from Crucial soon, I've just got to decide whether to skimp and therefore avoid tax (as here in Au' there's a level as to how much value you're bringing in, it's 250 AUD, which is what the RAM comes in under *if* the shipping isn't taxed, if it is I may as well just go 2GB all on the one shipment. Anyway, thanks for the help everyone. Now all I've to decide on is the damn monitor(s), I'm using a Sony G420 at present and might hold on to it with the G5 wait to see what's on the horizon, thanks all!

andrewbw · Nov 27, 2003, 01:42 PM

Slave --

Just saw your thread, hope my input isn't too late for you. I switched from a high-end Sony 19" CRT to a 20" Cinema Display earlier this year. I'm also in a Return To Castle Wolfenstein clan (recreational, non-competitive), and play a couple hours a night. I have zero complaints about playing Wolf with the Apple LCD. If there are any limitations to the LCD under that type of use, they aren't apparent to me -- it hasn't affected my play or my enjoyment of the game.

If you're climbing the ladders as some sort of world-ranked FPS player, well, OK, you probably would want a CRT, but, then you would also be using a tricked out gaming PC and not a Mac anyway.

The 20" display is stunning and a real pleasure to use in every other respect. I'm a professional graphic designer (11+ years in the industry) and wouldn't trade my ACD for anything... other than a 23" ACD, maybe

Hope this helps, enjoy your new toy!

-A.

Slave · Nov 27, 2003, 02:45 PM

Thanks, I've still got a bit of time up my sleeve before it arrives (I'm hoping it won't arrive any later than this time next week). I did like the twenty inch when I saw it in store though, and making use of the ADC would be very neat, in fact it'd make it one power cable, and only one cable to the tower also (if utilising the USB hub on the monitor). Now all I'm to do is order this RAM from Crucial... Would anyone suggest I'd noticed a difference between 1.5GB and 2.5GB (keeping in mind I would be buying 1 or 2 GB, as it comes with two 256 sticks) it's just I'm coming from a Windows environment where I've had 768MB, and of course the OS is fine with this, but I've heard X just loves whatever you throw at it. Besides a spot of gaming, the most intensive task I'll be doing will be some PS work (I'm aware of the 2GB limit, so I guess the question shifts to the diff' between the 1.5GB and the 2GB saturation limit, thanks!)

Again, to everyone thanks and cheers Andrew ;-).

Quick little edit, I guess the extra 180 USD or so could go into something else, such as a tablet (as that may help me more than the RAM) so any ideas would be great!

UpgradeManiac · Nov 27, 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Slave:
... Would anyone suggest I'd noticed a difference between 1.5GB and 2.5GB (keeping in mind I would be buying 1 or 2 GB, as it comes with two 256 sticks) it's just I'm coming from a Windows environment where I've had 768MB, and of course the OS is fine with this, but I've heard X just loves whatever you throw at it. Besides a spot of gaming, the most intensive task I'll be doing will be some PS work (I'm aware of the 2GB limit, so I guess the question shifts to the diff' between the 1.5GB and the 2GB saturation limit, thanks!)

There's a nice set of graphs in the December issue of MacAddict (page 51) that looks at your particular question. It looks like you would benefit from the 2.5GB RAM if you work with Photoshop files bigger than 200MB. For smaller files, the speed difference is flat (no difference between 1.5GB and 2.5GB).

Hope this helps

G5 1.8 | 512MB | 250GB | ATi 9600Pro | Bluetooth
7600/120 | XLR8 MACh Carrier G3 300/200 | ATi Rage 128 Orion | XPostFacto OS X 10.2.8
(apple ][+ | Mac Plus | Mac IIsi | Newton 2100)

Slave · Nov 27, 2003, 03:31 PM

Thanks, I'll try and check the latest issue out, we can get it here in Aus' but it costs about 20 AUD, not sure what that is in USD but it's pretty expensive for one magazine

& they're sealed so I can't give it a quick read at the store

Link · Nov 29, 2003, 07:40 PM

Ok, great choice but here's what I'll tell ya...

as far as RAM is concerned get as much as you can afford.. Not just because OS X is heavy on ram usage (once you get past around 768mb you're fine) but because once you get past 1gb OS X has some SICK disk cacheing.

Basically the OS will happily cache entire CDs to ram if you have enough

proton · Nov 29, 2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Slave:
Thanks, I'll try and check the latest issue out, we can get it here in Aus' but it costs about 20 AUD, not sure what that is in USD but it's pretty expensive for one magazine & they're sealed so I can't give it a quick read at the store

Many (but certainly not all) of the articles in the US version of MacWorld show up in Australian MacWorld a few months later. This is often particularly true of articles involving benchmarks and such, at least benchmarks of new products.

Of course that's no guarantee that it'll show up, and if it doesn't, you'll be a bit late getting the US version I'd say...

- proton

UpgradeManiac · Nov 29, 2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Slave:
Thanks, I'll try and check the latest issue out, we can get it here in Aus' but it costs about 20 AUD, not sure what that is in USD but it's pretty expensive for one magazine & they're sealed so I can't give it a quick read at the store

Here's a link to the MacAddict article online - it has the text, but not the actual graphs:

http://www.macaddict.com/issues/0312/rev.g5.html

Slave · Dec 5, 2003, 02:24 PM

Right, well I've had the machine since December 4th now, it's going great so far (I've stll got to receive the extra RAM so I'm only running on 512 for now). Anyway, the noise is great except for the 9800, it'd be nice if its fan altered with performance. Anyway I've downloaded what tools I could from the ATI website, as it says the latest drivers for the Radeon cards are included on Panther. One question though, I can't find any of the so called tools that were meant to be there, such as a performance slider etc. and other things (is this only for the retail card, not OEM?) if so is there anyway to uninstall what I installed. Thanks. Oh finally, it has come up as a new thing in System Preferences as "Other" and when I open the ATI Displays it says "unknown ATI Graphics" although it can derive the name of the chipest, i.e. R350 (AKA 9800Pro). Alright thanks!

Landos Mustache · Dec 5, 2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Eug:

Why didn't Apple choose the ultra-fast screens? Well, the slower screens tend to have better colours and contrast IMO.

Smart move by Apple as most of there clients are in the creative market and definitely not games. Anyone who buys the 20" LCD is using it more for graphics then high end games. You don't need super high refresh for Photoshop and I have never seen a lag in anything even my old 15" couldn't handle.

supernovamac · Dec 5, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Link:
Ok, great choice but here's what I'll tell ya...

as far as RAM is concerned get as much as you can afford.. Not just because OS X is heavy on ram usage (once you get past around 768mb you're fine) but because once you get past 1gb OS X has some SICK disk cacheing.

Basically the OS will happily cache entire CDs to ram if you have enough

Can some one tell me more on macosx and ram. why is 768mb ram so crucial?