[spacefreak]

If you're out there, Zimph, this gem is dedicated to you.

Iraqi govt. papers: Saddam bribed Chirac

BAGHDAD, Jan. 28 (UPI) -- Documents from Saddam Hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top French officials into opposing the imminent U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

The oil ministry papers, described by the independent Baghdad newspaper al-Mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basis of an official investigation by the new Iraqi Governing Council, the Independent reported Wednesday.

Such evidence would undermine the French position before the war when President Jacques Chirac sought to couch his opposition to the invasion on a moral high ground. <snip>

French diplomats have dismissed any suggestion their foreign policy was influenced by payments from Saddam, but some European diplomats have long suspected France's steadfast opposition to the war was less moral than monetary.

[Logic]

Noh, do you miss Zimph......

IIRC this was debunked last week. But interesting non-the-less.

[eklipse]

Even if it is true, who cares?

Did anyone really think that the French government's opposition to the war was motivated by anything other than politics and economics?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Did anyone really think that the French government's opposition to the war was motivated by anything other than politics and economics?

I didn't, but some did.

I am impressed with the investigative journalism being performed by Iraq's new, independent news organizations. I think that's pretty cool.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Logic:
IIRC this was debunked last week.

Any link you could provide to the debunking would be appreciated, Logic.

BTW: This has been the coldest, snowiest winter I can remember, at least where I live. For some reason, I feel like this is what your winters are always like over there. No research on my part - perhaps just an association with the word "ice".

[thunderous_funker]

Let's see. Who else do we know liked doing billion dollar business with Saddam?

James A. Baker III

on behalf the president

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Let's see. Who else do we know liked doing billion dollar business with Saddam?

Yeah, but this 'business' wasn't conducted 20+ years ago, and it wasn't conducted during a time of sanctions.

[theolein]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Any link you could provide to the debunking would be appreciated, Logic.

BTW: This has been the coldest, snowiest winter I can remember, at least where I live. For some reason, I feel like this is what your winters are always like over there. No research on my part - perhaps just an association with the word "ice".

The first I heard of it was today, on the BBC, but it has nothing to do with Chirac according to the article, but with Charles Pasqua, who was once minister of the interior, until '96 IIRC. However, I would not at all be surprised if Chriac were to be found taking money from Saddam, Pol Pot and the Columbian Cocaine Board since he's a pretty corrupt bugger who has just been lucky until now in avoiding prosecution.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Yeah, but this 'business' wasn't conducted 20+ years ago, and it wasn't conducted during a time of sanctions.

You mean it was conducted when Iraq actually did have WMD and was actually using them against Kurds and Iranians?

Interesting point.

If you prefer a modern villian, look no further than Cheney

He even lied when directly asked if Halliburton did business in Iraq during that time.

One should note that Cheney was a vocal critic of the Sanctions against Iraq. Obviously, they stood in the way of money.

Even more interesting, when lobbying for the invasion of Iraq last year, Cheney argued that the oil for food program (and the UN) were totally corrupt and that "everyone knew" Saddam had been exploiting the system to buy illegal weapons and materials.

I guess even knowing that Saddam was cheating the system to buy WMD, that still didn't dissuade Cheney from taking Saddam's money.

[dialo]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Yeah, but this 'business' wasn't conducted 20+ years ago, and it wasn't conducted during a time of sanctions.

Let's not forget, though, that Cheney's company was recent and suring sanctions:

Halliburton approved of the sanctions imposed on Iraq because as Dick Cheney explained, �One major uncertainty is the potential negative impact on oil prices should Iraq reenter the market.� But at the same time, the morally amorphous company managed to work on both sides of the curtain. Detailed investigative reports by the Financial Times and the International Herald Tribune revealed that Halliburton, through two if its subsidiaries, skirted the sanctions on Iraq and did some $23.8 million in business with the �evil� regime. The oil services company was paid to rebuild the very same Iraqi infrastructure that its CEO was complicit in destroying as defense secretary under Bush I. Interestingly, one month prior to the publication of these reports, Mr. Cheney had claimed: �I had a firm policy that I wouldn't do anything in Iraq, even arrangements that were supposedly legal.� Cheney's company did its business in Iraq through European subsidiaries �to avoid straining relations with Washington and jeopardizing their ties with President Saddam Hussein's government,� (Risen 7-28-2002; Lee 11-13-2000; Bruno and Vallette 9-2000; Flanders 10-06-2001; Cavelli 11-19-2001)

From CCR.

[FeLiZeCaT]

I also remember Shell buying oil from Iraq during the so call restrictions.

It is also said that some of Hussain's fortune is with Hachette, a French corporation.

But I wonder where all U.S. weapons are sold exactly...

I really wonder...

[The Ayatollah]

not surprising that France and Chirac are sh*tbags, morally speaking. They sold out long ago, if they were ever on a truly moral/ethical track.

Again, self-interest rules the world (not that this suprises me).

[FeLiZeCaT]

You're funny!

LOL

And you are God given gift to humanity, of course!

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by dialo:
Let's not forget, though, that Cheney's company was recent and suring sanctions.

Is there any place I can find the actual documents, or does CCR just offer snippets of which we're to assume the research is accurate, sound, and in good faith?

On another topic...I wonder how CCR's sales of Bush Regime Change playing cards are coming along. With these and the Saddam deck of cards, there should be a way to see how many sell - sorta like with book sales and the Nielsen ratings.

[FeLiZeCaT]

you might find this interesting...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in595214.shtml

[thunderous_funker]

Very substantial report on Halliburton's dirty dealings with Iraq, Libya, Burma, Indonesia, Azerbaijan and many others.

They lobbied the government against sanctions, got massive corporate welfare from the US, and did business with dictators and human rights abusing regimes all over the globe.

The report also contains endnotes with sources.

[dialo]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Is there any place I can find the actual documents, or does CCR just offer snippets of which we're to assume the research is accurate, sound, and in good faith?

You mean, like they should have references at the end of the paraghraph or something?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by dialo:
You mean, like they should have references at the end of the paraghraph or something?

No, I was hoping you could point me to the actual documents that are referenced.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
you might find this interesting...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in595214.shtml

Good link...thanks.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Very substantial report on Halliburton's dirty dealings with Iraq, Libya, Burma, Indonesia, Azerbaijan and many others.

They lobbied the government against sanctions, got massive corporate welfare from the US, and did business with dictators and human rights abusing regimes all over the globe.

The report also contains endnotes with sources.

Thanks for the report. Some good info here.

In general, and to be fair, Cheney was CEO of a corporation in the private sector. And any CEO is going to try and increase revenues and profits because that's what the stockholders demand.

I could see how it appears some subsidiaries were doing some shady stuff when viewed from the point of view that their entire existence was owed to bypassing sanctions. Considering that Cheney does not hide the fact that he opposed sanctions and lobbied against them in the interests of helping US corporations, this could seem consistent.

However, it is the Iraq stuff that I am closely scrutinizing. The key here is that the European subsidiary Ingersoll-Dressar Pump Co. sold some oil pumping equipment to Iraq under the oil-for-food program via a European in 2000, just before Cheney's resignation, while Cheney states that he made it a policy to avoid doing business with Saddam.

Was he lying? I doubt it, considering that is the only sale noted in the reports I have read. That it was a foreign subsidiary (that has its own board of directors, executives, etc.), and knowing that Cheney was a close advisor to Bush during his run for the nomination in late 1999 and 2000, I highly doubt he personally was involved with the sale, which by the way, was perfectly legal.

I would like to point out that subsidiaries are seperate beasts. For instance, Philip Morris executives likely have no idea that Kraft is going to offer a new macaroni and cheese flavor, or that Miller Lite will be selling 20-packs of beer.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Saddam bribing foreign officials.

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
You're funny!

LOL

And you are God given gift to humanity, of course!

and you're obviously the reincarnation of someone recently banned or some other worm slinking from its hole.

[Troll]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
If you're out there, Zimph, this gem is dedicated to you.

Where is the accusation that Saddam bribed Chirac? Or did your Interest Alert just make that up the catchy title?

[FeLiZeCaT]

quoted from The Ayatollah:

quote:
Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
You're funny!

LOL

And you are God given gift to humanity, of course!

"and you're obviously the reincarnation of someone recently banned or some other worm slinking from its hole. "

______________________

Well, right. Now I feel bad. That was not nice of me. My apologies, The Ayatollah. Nobody deserves such a sarcastic comment like the one I gave. I should just have ignored you.

Again, my apologies to you, and the other threaders.

[kvm_mkdb]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
and you're obviously the reincarnation of someone recently banned or some other worm slinking from its hole.

and you're obviously the reincarnation of someone recently banned or some other worm slinking from its hole.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
If you're out there, Zimph, this gem is dedicated to you.

Not the first time Chirac was bribed, probably not the last time. If that can make you feel better he won't make it through the next presidential elections.
This however cannot be used as a justification to the war in Irak. Really.

villa

[kindbud]

that's OK, we'll use it as justification that France is more corrupt than the USA.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
Again, self-interest rules the world (not that this suprises me).

Your a prime example of that.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Troll:
Where is the accusation that Saddam bribed Chirac? Or did your Interest Alert just make that up the catchy title?

I got it from the title of the article I linked to: "Iraqi govt. papers: Saddam bribed Chirac"

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Your a prime example of that.

welcome back, robert. Your bad grammar and all.

[Troll]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
I got it from the title of the article I linked to: "Iraqi govt. papers: Saddam bribed Chirac"

Well, they put that as a headline, but there is no accusation in the article itself of any wrongdoing by Chirac. He is not even on the list. This is extraordinarily bad journalism.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Troll:
Well, they put that as a headline

Hence, my "interest alert" did not "just make it up".

This is extraordinarily bad journalism.

Here'a another article on the topic. Maybe this journalism will be more to your satisfaction.

[eklipse]

Of course, the US never bribed or threatened any other countries in an effort to get it's way at the UN....

Nuh-uh....never....

[Troll]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Hence, my "interest alert" did not "just make it up". Here'a another article on the topic. Maybe this journalism will be more to your satisfaction.

That is better. Note how that one doesn't make up facts like your Interest Alert does. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Jacques Chirac was involved in bribery. Interest Alert completely made that up!

There are Americans and Spaniards and Brits on that list too. 200 names of which 11 are presumed to be French - not one of them is Jacques Chirac.

I don't like the guy at all, but if he were accused of bribery, it'd be serious.

[villalobos]

ABCNews reported on the subject too. Apparently some French dude close to Chirac was getting discount prices for oil barrel. There is even a French priest living in Italy (who organized a meeting between the Pope and Tarek Azziz!!!!). Lotsa people from everywhere... And some political organizations from Russia...
Interesting. And Sad I guess. I am sure Chirac will pretend he did not know anything about it, which might be true, or wrong. The guy is done politically anyways. he entered the history books with his stand against the US (the French history books at least), but will gently and hopefully fade away during the next election. There is an urgent need for a profound change in the French political landscape...


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/I..._040129-1.html

villa

[FeLiZeCaT]

You might find this interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1943550.stm

http://www.elysee.fr/pres/

so... he made it in the news in the UK.

Americans hate his guts mainly because he predicted what is actually going on now in Iraq. He predicted a mess because he experienced it before. He tried to help the US save face.

Yep. He failed. Major failure.

And he is the Prez of that Republic (even if it is not for long).

Yet he will ONLY make the French History books.

So tell me...

I am trying to understand here; Is the History of this world, according to you, "American History" only? Like, the one starting with "We the People..."?


About those funny exchanges between some French guy and Iraq, it has importance ONLY because of the embargo and because the media has decided to make you look the other way. Another illusionist trick; it is real. But it is past. if we look at that piece of History, we have to look at all the pieces.

ALL OF'EM.

Then we have to look at the present.

That incident happened countless times before (and still today) by some business people, corporate Moguls from the US or any other industrialized countries, members of the WTO, with other countries practicing violence on a daily basis on their population...

That great Satan of Iraq was doing business like many do everyday, not much bloodier that the business done by some clothing manufacturers.

Do you know how, where and by whom your clothes were made?

[Saddam H.]

Infidel what's your point?

[FeLiZeCaT]

Start with this:

"Saddam Hussein; the politics of revenge" by Said K. Aburish. Bloomsbury paperbacks

[NYCFarmboy]

Chirac has been on Saddams's payroll since the 1970's.

[kindbud]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Chirac has been on Saddams's payroll since the 1970's.

about time to liberate France, dontcha think?

[The Ayatollah]

Originally posted by kindbud:
about time to liberate France, dontcha think?

meh. born in a pigsty, yearn for a pigsty is what I say. The French apostates wouldn't know what to do with enlightenment or emancipation from their filthy elitism and pseudo-moralism.

[Troll]

Bush, Blair and Azhnar bribed by Saddam - check it out

United Kingdom
George Galloway, member of Parliament: 19 million
Mujaheddin Khalq: 36.5 million

United States
Samir Vincent: 7 million
Shakir Alkhalaji: 10.5 million

Spain
Ali Ballout, Lebanese journalist: 8.8 million

[villalobos]

Originally posted by kindbud:
about time to liberate France, dontcha think?

If you won the war that is. Maybe you should focus on finishing the job in Afghanistan and Iraq first, hmmm?
As the saying goes, 'If you run after too many rabbits, you end up catching none'.
Silly yankees and their 5 ms attention span.

villa

[tie]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
If you're out there, Zimph, this gem is dedicated to you.

I am going to go out on a limb here, and predict that this is going to turn out to be nothing. Specifically, there will be no evidence that Chirac ever took any bribes from Saddam Hussein. Why do I say this? Because, yet again, spacefreak has fallen for some nutty news source without any evidence to back it up. From spacefreak's record on Iraq -- WMDs, ties to terror -- I'm pretty confident he'll be wrong again.

Unfortunately, this sort of strategy doesn't always work. For example, the assumption that Bush and his administration are dishonest and will lie freely helps a lot. E.g., when they say a British Airways pilot recognized Air Force One near Baghdad -- it's just a straight, gratuitous lie which you can assume to be false. Ditto for any possible evidence of suspected potential future weapons-related programs. But when they say the deficit will be $300 billion, you don't know what to believe. A few weeks later they say it will be $500 billion, and I'm still not sure what to believe. Is this because Bush said in his State of the Union he planned to cut the deficit in half, and he felt compelled to do the exact opposite? Or will we be at $750 billion in another two weeks?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by tie:
I am going to go out on a limb here, and predict that this is going to turn out to be nothing. Specifically, there will be no evidence that Chirac ever took any bribes from Saddam Hussein. Why do I say this? Because, yet again, spacefreak has fallen for some nutty news source without any evidence to back it up. From spacefreak's record on Iraq -- WMDs, ties to terror -- I'm pretty confident he'll be wrong again.

While you're out on that limb, check out this ABC News Investigation: Saddam's Gifts

This investigatort report includes a pretty thorough listing of the names and amount (in millions of barrels) of oil contracts awarded to those names by Saddam. Here are a few:

According to the document, France was the second-largest beneficiary, with tens of millions of barrels awarded to Patrick Maugein, a close political associate and financial backer of French President Jacques Chirac.

The single biggest set of contracts were given to the Russian government and Russian political figures, more than 1.3 billion barrels in all � including 92 million barrels to individual officials in the office of President Vladimir Putin.

Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (2 separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million

France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million

Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million

Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million

United Kingdom
George Galloway, member of Parliament: 19 million
Mujaheddin Khalq: 36.5 million

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
While you're out on that limb, check out this ABC News Investigation: Saddam's Gifts

This investigatort report includes a pretty thorough listing of the names and amount (in millions of barrels) of oil contracts awarded to those names by Saddam. Here are a few:

Troll mentioned them above, as well.

I find it highly amusing (not) that you omitted this one:

United States
Samir Vincent: 7 million
Shakir Alkhalaji: 10.5 million

[thunderous_funker]

Let's see. 1.3 billion barrels, 50 cents profit per barrel...

That means all those "gifts" were about the size of the agricultural loan James Baker negotiated for Saddam on behalf of Bush I.

Conclusion:

Everybody was Saddam's friend when it put money in their pocket. Everybody. Including the US government.

[dialo]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I find it highly amusing (not) that you omitted this one:

Those were individuals who were outspoken against the sanctions. It is quite a huge stretch, though, to claim that their position was a result of what's in this document.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Troll mentioned them above, as well.

I find it highly amusing (not) that you omitted this one:

Who are those people? Are they close to government figures the way that the people bribed in France and Russia were close to the presidents of those to countries?

T_F, I'm not familiar with the agricultural loan story. Are you saying that Saddam personally lent money two Bush Sr.? If so, why didn't he stay bought like so many others apparently did?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I find it highly amusing (not) that you omitted this one:

I didn't include a lot of names (including those 2 Iraqi-Americans), that's why I led into the quote with: "The report includes a pretty thorough listing...here are a few:".

There was no attempt to hide any names. I just listed those that are involved in policy-making decisions. Like with the UK's George Galloway.

Regardless, I provided a link to the complete article so people could view the entire list. That's probably how you found those names.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
T_F, I'm not familiar with the agricultural loan story. Are you saying that Saddam personally lent money two Bush Sr.? If so, why didn't he stay bought like so many others apparently did?

The links are in my earlier posts in this thread.

First of all, I'm not equating doing business with Saddam with "being bought" or even "staying bought". Just because people took Saddam's money doesn't mean they were going to fight Saddam's battles.

In 1989 James Baker worked to secure $1 Billion in agricultural loans for Iraq. His memos reveal that economic relations with Iraq were a serious priority for the administration at the time.

Our economic relations in the 10 years prior to that are already well documented even if conveniently forgotten.

I will credit Bush Sr. for at least attempting to temper our business with Iraq through Oil For Food. It was a miserable failure, but at least there was an attempt at basing the relationship on somewhat moral grounds. Reagan and Rummy gave Saddam whatever the hell he wanted and didn't care what he did with it, including a lot of the stuff that seems to have haunted Dubya's dreams of late.

Everybody did business with Saddam. Everybody.

The implication here is that Saddam's money convinced world leaders to not join Dubya's mid east adventure. I don't think that is the case. Bush Sr got those same nations to overlook their lucrative business dealings with Saddam (and even our own) when Saddam crossed the line. And Bush Sr recognized the lunacy of marching on Bagdad for exactly the same reasons Dubya missed--none of the partners would stand for it, and he foresaw that we'd end up having to occupy the nation indefinitely against a presumably hostile population.

In short, the Dubya's proposed solution was worse than the problem in the eyes of most. I highly doubt that a few million here and few million there were anywhere near enough money to make them reconsider the prospects of taking ownership of a failed state.