[Sealobo]

YouTube - Chinese Playing Cards Factory

not only they're cheap, they're skilled.

i feel kinda sad for their lives though...

[Laminar]

Fastest one earns his freedom?

[Sealobo]

not really, but that's real productivity and hard work. China isn't getting 9% GDP growth through some financial wizardry.

[Spheric Harlot]

Don't worry - it will change once wages rise.

[torsoboy]

That is awesome-fast. It seems like they *must* be paid per box or something. Although, with a person just eye-balling the number of cards being put into a box, it seems like it would be fairly error prone.

[Sealobo]

i think those cards are pre-sorted and they always split the deck at the Joker card.

[mattyb]

The difference in China is that its still cheaper to use people to do this sort of work then to replace them with machines. When that happens is when you start to see another jump in living standards since they then need people to maintain, build, sell etc those machines instead of just using cheap manual labour for most tasks.

Think that I saw somewhere recently that the minimum wage went up by 20%. I just wonder when the revolution will start.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Sealobo 

YouTube - Chinese Playing Cards Factory

not only they're cheap, they're skilled.

That's not "skilled" labour, BTW.

[Sealobo]

ok... can i have your definition of "skilled" labour?

[Spheric Harlot]

Skill (labor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Skill is a measure of a worker's expertise, specialization, wages, and supervisory capacity. Skilled workers are generally more trained, higher paid, and have more responsibilities than unskilled workers.

Skilled workers have long had historical import (see Division of labor) as masons, carpenters, blacksmiths, bakers, brewers, coopers, printers and other occupations that are economically productive. Skilled workers were often politically active through their craft guilds.

The people in that video aren't doing anything that couldn't (and isn't) easily and adequately be replaced by the simplest of mechanical automation. And you can be sure that it will be, once wages rise enough.

You don't need years of experience and a qualitative eye to stack cards into a box. This is the perfect example for "unskilled labour".

I'm not knocking their dexterity; it's just that the word "skill" in relation to labour has a very clear-cut usage.

[Sealobo]

so they're not "specialized" enough in packing cards?!

and i think your argument regarding being replaced by mechanical automation is irrelevant. theoretically any workflow can be replaced by machine, save maybe the creative department.

weaving can also be replaced by mechanical automation, would you say those labours who speed-weave for a living aren't skilled? These labours are not being replaced by machines in certain part of the world (yet) because they're precisely "economically productive" as a cost of production.

[cright]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

That is awesome-fast. It seems like they *must* be paid per box or something.

I think its more likely they will be fired and replaced by a more competent worker if they don't reach their insane targets. It's China.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The people in that video aren't doing anything that couldn't (and isn't) easily and adequately be replaced by the simplest of mechanical automation.

You are mistaken to think that *simple* automation can replace human labor. In many cases, automation to replace simple human handling of parts is surprisingly complex and very expensive.

Actually, often highly automated manufacturing lines require MORE staffing that comparable LCIA (low cost intelligent automation) lines.
I have seen first hand (in the automotive industry) how highly automated lines that were converted to lean, manual lines *reduced* the number of direct line workers and increased quality and flexibility.


Also, highly automated lines require a lot more staffing that one would think. The higher the automation, the more things can go wrong and need constant fixing and maintenance.

-t

[The Final Dakar]

This thread is srs business.

[Eug]

Sorry but packing cards is just not "skilled labour". Anyone can do it, with minimal training.

BTW, China and India are two countries (among many) where I hope the labour force gets significantly more rights (and more pay).

The whole issue about automation is a completely different kettle of fish.

[olePigeon]

Not to mention the other criteria for skilled labor: higher wages and more responsibility. 11 cents an hour and no responsibility except to yourself is not a skilled laborer.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

You are mistaken to think that *simple* automation can replace human labor. In many cases, automation to replace simple human handling of parts is surprisingly complex and very expensive.

Actually, often highly automated manufacturing lines require MORE staffing that comparable LCIA (low cost intelligent automation) lines.
I have seen first hand (in the automotive industry) how highly automated lines that were converted to lean, manual lines *reduced* the number of direct line workers and increased quality and flexibility.


Also, highly automated lines require a lot more staffing that one would think. The higher the automation, the more things can go wrong and need constant fixing and maintenance.

Interesting!

By "simple", though, I meant purely mechanical - there is no qualitative analysis, no highly complex computing. A packing machine is intricate and expensive, but dumb and not complex in the sense of the needs of craftsmanship or anything you'd need skilled labour for - flexibility.

It does what it does, and you can run I slower or faster, that's it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Sealobo 

so they're not "specialized" enough in packing cards?! .

The problem is obviously purely a semantic one.

"Skilled labour" in the job market means a very specific thing. If you didn't go through two or three years of specialized education/training to be able to do it, it's not a "skill" - it's menial labour or simply dexterity.

That doesn't make those people stupid or less awesome at what they're doing. Their work simply doesn't qualify for the term "skilled" (as opposed to skillful, perhaps), is all.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

By "simple", though, I meant purely mechanical - there is no qualitative analysis, no highly complex computing. A packing machine is intricate and expensive, but not complex in the sense of the needs of craftsmanship or anything you'd need skilled labour for - flexibility.

One easily underestimates the amount of intelligence needed.

Unless, of course, you want a machine to do only one thing and not be able to adjust to slightly different products / processes. But for expensive equipment, that wouldn't be cost efficient. You buy a machine / manufacturing line that will last 5-10 years, so you want it to be somewhat flexible.

The issue is that we rarely think about how much analysis, thinking and adjusting goes into simple processes and steps that a humna performs. Since all of the "thinking" is done subconsciously, learned from experience, we don't realize the complexity of the "background" thinking.

Only when one tries to implement it with a dumb machine one realizes the complexities involved.

-t

[Spheric Harlot]

No doubt.

Which is Why those guys are (as yet) cheaper.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

No doubt.

Which is Why those guys are (as yet) cheaper.

Correct. The million$ question is, at what point (labor cost) does it make sense to automate.

My experience (from the automotive industry): it's at a much higher labor cost rate than most think, possibly higher than even labor in high cost countries.

The common "wisdom" (i.e., automation saves cost and gives higher quality) is nothing but a mantra.

-t

[Eug]

My favourite Discovery Channel "Factory Made" show moment was how one company ensures its golf clubs are in proper alignment before release.

They measure it by computer. If it's out of alignment, some dude whacks it with a hammer. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

[subego]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

humna...

Humna! Humna!

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by subego 

Humna! Humna!

Darkwing Duck: What'd he say?!
Launchpad: He said they can't see the Great Bird God because the blimp's in the way.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Correct. The million$ question is, at what point (labor cost) does it make sense to automate.

My experience (from the automotive industry): it's at a much higher labor cost rate than most think, possibly higher than even labor in high cost countries.

The common "wisdom" (i.e., automation saves cost and gives higher quality) is nothing but a mantra.

Thats very true in IT as well. I know of several ERP implementations to replace old green screen mainframe apps that have cost millions and millions of pounds dollars and euros and have not delivered the functionality that they were bought for. It does however provide for more employment.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My favourite Discovery Channel "Factory Made" show moment was how one company ensures its golf clubs are in proper alignment before release.

They measure it by computer. If it's out of alignment, some dude whacks it with a hammer. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

+1 Great Series. Great Episode.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Thats very true in IT as well. I know of several ERP implementations to replace old green screen mainframe apps that have cost millions and millions of pounds dollars and euros and have not delivered the functionality that they were bought for. It does however provide for more employment.

ha, LOL, smells like SAP.

-t

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My favourite Discovery Channel "Factory Made" show moment was how one company ensures its golf clubs are in proper alignment before release.

They measure it by computer. If it's out of alignment, some dude whacks it with a hammer. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.

Wait! Did they whack the computer or the golf club with the hammer?

[downinflames68]

Because china has :

1. Cheap labor
2. No regulations on human rights or safety standards
3. No regulations on environmental disposals, chemicals, recycling, pollution, etc

Until they have the same regulations that we do, they will have a huge price advantage.

[Sealobo]

o... yes. Prosperity always has a price. it's just a matter of who's paying it. The US is by far the biggest beneficiary of cheap Chinese export. You do realize that the Apple products could be priced as such AMAZING price because they're made in China, right?

and talking of human rights... click below for your reading pleasure.

Diego Garcia

power projection ftw! and i seriously don't blame the US.

[Sealobo]

it's funny when people in the state talk about human right. no offense but some of you people live in sheltered existence only because shit is happening elsewhere in the world and your government/economy is actually a big part of it.

[downinflames68]

Bash the US all you want, but our bill of rights is something most countries envy.

[Spheric Harlot]

What's it worth if you're (we're all) profiting from places that don't have something similar?

NIMBY applies to rights, as well.

[Sealobo]

i am not bashing the US. i think the US is doing the right thing as a sovereign country; you know, to protect its land and people.

but it doesn't mean the US is righteous.

and no, i don't envy the life style or the "bill of rights". i heard somewhere that it's now illegal to grow your own crops in the state. and i don't want my future children running around knowing that firearms can be easily obtained.

but yeah, if i were to move to the state, i would totally buy some guns.

[downinflames68]

Huh?

[Sealobo]

too much for you to comprehend, i know.

[downinflames68]

First off, I wasn't being righteous, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. China has zero human rights, and zero environmental regulations, and people who will work for almost nothing. That is the way it is.

Secondly, you then said you don't envy the bill of rights. Um, why?

Third, you talked about illegal growing of crops? You must be smoking some of your personal crops to have come up with something this weird.

Lastly, you claim you don't want your kids getting guns, but then immediately say you want to buy some if you move to the states.

Are you drunk?

[Spheric Harlot]

Are you?

:goes to fetch popcorn, wife, and kids:

[Sealobo]

ok this could be my last reply to your comment.

First off, have you been to China? guess not. so you're judging from the news. and news in the state is a lot of bullshit when it comes to foreign affair. Again, it's the same everywhere, you'd get half-assed news from the state if you're getting it in Europe.

regarding your "lastly" statement, the fact that i have no interest in going to the state because i don't have to be part of the system where i need to take certain measure to ensure that i am not worse-off; if people are allowed to have weapons, then i must also have. But i prefer not be part of it hence i am not interested in living in the state. have i made myself clear?

I believe the above has answered your "Secondly" question.

for your "Third" statement, i was only guessing. but you can refer to US Bills HR875 and S425. it could all be a joke but i really don't know. it concerns you more since you're more or less indirectly affected.

[Sealobo]

seriously dude, Ca$h you're not a dumb person, but it seems that you tend to look at things through a pinhole and you're also very stubborn. i can only say good luck to you.

[Buckaroo]

Check this one out:

YouTube - Why U.S. is not competative with China

[Sealobo]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Check this one out:

YouTube - Why U.S. is not competative with China

i think they could stand adjacent to that machine (mold still within arm's reach it seems) to avoid the possibility of being crushed... but they preferred to sit down anyway.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Bash the US all you want, but our bill of rights is something most countries envy.

Not the bill of rights.

It those damn liberals and labor unions who demanded fair pay, workplace safety, and a limit on work hours per day.

China is just experience the forces of the 'free market' with limited government regulations.

[Spheric Harlot]

^ Truth.

[downinflames68]

I thought it was the republicans who used to stand for the working man, and organized labor strikes? You know, before republicans changed into rich, biggoted, war mongers?

[Spheric Harlot]

Weird, isn't it? Republicans were at the forefront of the civil rights movement, as well, and now they're tending towards the Tea Party's casual racism and xenophobia.

Bizarre development.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

China is just experience the forces of the 'free market' with limited government regulations.

Limited government regulations???? You're taking the piss right?

While they don't care about workers treatment, you'd BETTER adhere to government regulations. You might get shot or just disappear otherwise.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

I thought it was the republicans who used to stand for the working man, and organized labor strikes? You know, before republicans changed into rich, biggoted, war mongers?

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Weird, isn't it? Republicans were at the forefront of the civil rights movement, as well, and now they're tending towards the Tea Party's casual racism and xenophobia.

Party labels are independent of the party members' personal beliefs. The Republican party attracted a lot of liberals around the time of Lincoln, and the conservatives rallied with the Democrats. When the civil rights movement came about, Democrats campaigned on civil rights to get the vote, so most of the liberals supported the Democrats with the conservatives defecting to Republicans.

Probably in another 50 to 100 years, it'll all switch over again.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

While they don't care about workers treatment, you'd BETTER adhere to government regulations. You might get shot or just disappear otherwise.

Depends on how much you bribe the government official in your area.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Limited government regulations???? You're taking the piss right?

While they don't care about workers treatment, you'd BETTER adhere to government regulations. You might get shot or just disappear otherwise.

I heard if you are too slow in packing cards, the government will come in the middle of the night and make your disappear and replace you with a clone.

Okay, enough of the fear mongering.

Yes, limited government regulations.

Limited labor regulations.
Limited product safety regulations.
Limited food safety regulations.
Limited intellectual property regulations.