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Israel Is Always Right (Page 8)
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von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin
Huh? I don't get it, Hamas' military wing itself has said that they have captured the first israeli soldier and Hezbollah has said that they have captured the two other israeli soldiers, and want to use them to press free palestinian and lebanese/syrian prisoners. So why are you going the route of conspiracy-theories?

Taliesin
Look at what I was responding to.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by yakkiebah
Hizbollah has nothing to do with Islam? You do know what their name and agenda stands for right?
Of course I know who they are. But their name is Hizbollah. Not hizballah like vmarks continuously writes it. And there is only one reason for him to write it like that. And both you and I know why that is.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
yakkiebah
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Of course I know who they are. But their name is Hizbollah. Not hizballah like vmarks continuously writes it. And there is only one reason for him to write it like that. And both you and I know why that is.

^ The name ‮حزب الله‬ is transliterated from the Arabic in a number of ways. An exact transliteration would be hizbu' llāh. Hezbollah is used by CNN and BBC. It is also written as Hizbullah, Hizballah, Hizbollah, Hezbollah, and the literal Arabic version Hizb Allah, which is used by Al Jazeera. "Hizb" (party) is the Modern Standard Arabic pronunciation, and "Hezb" is closer to Persian and to Lebanese dialect. The 'h' is pharyngeal in Arabic, but a normal 'h' sound in Persian. The "-llah" ending, originally "Allah", means "(the) God". The name is derived from a Qu'ranic aayat (verse) referring to those who belong to and follow the "Party of God".
There ya go. So, you were saying?
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:10 AM
 


     
PB2K
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:13 AM
 


i don't care how you write it. this thread has been about nitpicking all along.
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Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:15 AM
 
Well, it DOES feel good when Von Wrongallah is wrong.

     
Taliesin
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What I and others here are saying, Troll, is that after YEARS of trying to do things "nicely" through talks and peace negotiations, it has become clear to Israel that acting nicely and keeping to themselves is not working.
If you are talking about the Oslo-years, that has been hardly the case. It's what Israel says time and time again, but it's wrong, both sides, the PA and the israeli state have violated the Oslo-accords. The PA did so by continuing to propagate antisemitic material and continuing to praise violence as the solution to the problems with Israel, while Israel continued to pursue, even considerably enforcing its settler-activity in East-Jerusalem and the Westbank, in order to create facts on the ground.

Both sides shamefully betrayed the interests of their own people, ie. the longing for peace.





Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
It is not working because you have people like the Palestinians and Iran who say, "Israel has no right to exist."
Yes, there are some groups among the palestinians that still adhere to that maximalist-goal, just like there are lobbys in Israel still adhering to the maximalist-goal of Greater Israel. Both need to compromise their maximalist-doctrines in order to make peace.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
What the hell do you expect Israel to do?

SERIOUSLY?

WHAT THE HELL SHOULD ISRAEL DO?

ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Keep on letting Palestinians get in and blow up Israelis?
Hmm, wasn't the wall built to prevent exactly that? It surely seemed to work, the bombings inside Israel have been reduced considerably, so... I would say Israel should complete its wall, but only and solely on israeli soil inside the pre67-borders+West-Jerusalem.
That and peace-agreements with the palestinians, Lebanon and Syria will do the trick. When the Sheeba-farms and the Golan-heights have been given back, as well as all of the Westbank and East-jerusalem, and all prisoners have received their amnesty and released, and a palestinian state is being built up with the help of the international community with a viable economy, with ports, airports, waterressources..., then the maximalist-groups of Hamas and Hezbollah will gradually or even quickly lose their appeal, or probably force Hezbollah and Hamas to change their doctrines in order to keep the appeal and to become normal civilian parties.



Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Because that is what you seem to think is the only choice that the Israelis should make.

And to that we all say, "No, Israel has a RIGHT to go on the offensive at some point."

That point is now.
No, Israel is the way stronger party here, and it should use that powerful stance to restraint itself and by that frustrate the radical groups among the palestinians and lebanese. Israel going offensive is exactly what these radical groups want and need, it's their life-line, their justification, their propaganda-tool and their mean to harm Israel and israelis.

No matter how much firepower Israel uses, against a motivated, ideological and trained guerillia-force, it can't win. On the other hand, no matter how ideological or trained the guerillias are, they can't win either against Israel nor against its forces.

The best Israel can do is to ignore the guerillias and try to isolate them politically, diplomatic and financially and continue to make peace with the surrounding neighbours without letting itself get provocated.




Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Lastly, as I said in another post, the Israelis made an attempt to warn the civilians that strikes were coming through announcements and leaflets dropped.

When was the last time a Palestinian suicide bomber ever let innocent Israelis know ahead of time that they were going to bomb their hotel, bus, or restaurant?

NEVER.

Now that's an argument! Or not really: The suicide-bomber's goal is to kill civilians as a form of revenge/retaliation, so by letting people know beforehand about the attack would be contraproductive to that goal.

Taliesin
     
Taliesin
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Look at what I was responding to.
I have and I still don't get it. How does the further development in this crisis change anything about who kidnapped the soldiers?

Taliesin
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:26 AM
 
The best Israel can do is to ignore the guerillias and try to isolate them politically, diplomatic and financially and continue to make peace with the surrounding neighbours without letting itself get provocated.
What you're effectively saying is that the best Israel can do is to continue to be bombed and terrorized.

Now, imagine the United States and Mexico...if Mexican guerrillas were bombing our cities and civilians we'd be going into Mexico and kicking some @ss. No doubt about it.

Why shouldn't Israel do the same?

They have just as much of a right to do that as the United States has to defend itself also.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:28 AM
 
Oh, and Taliesin:

Read Mort Zuckerman's article for today that I quoted on Page 7 of this thread then respond to that, will you?

He reflects the majority view regarding Israel's concessions and right to protect itself.
     
Trygve
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Now, imagine the United States and Mexico...if Mexican guerrillas were bombing our cities and civilians we'd be going into Mexico and kicking some @ss. No doubt about it.
So Hezbollah captures two Israelis and Israel has the right to bomb Lebanese infrastructure? The US has captured a wide variety of people (lets assume that among them are Syrians, and Iranians) and is holding them in Cuba. I suppose that gives Iran and Syria the right to bomb American infrastructure, right? Do you think it is justified for Iran to destroy the runways at JFK? I think not.

Israel is way out of line here.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:51 AM
 
Give us ALL a break and TRY to remember that Israel has lost much more than "two Israelis."



And read this by Mort Zuckerman:

Israel's last resort

After withdrawal, Hamas and Hezbollah
have waged endless, ruthless war

Eleven months ago, Israel withdrew from every last inch of the Gaza Strip. They dismantled all military bases, turned over functioning greenhouses that could employ 4,000 people, expelled all 7,500 Israeli settlers at a huge financial and political cost and declared the lines that divide Israel from Gaza to be an international frontier, making Gaza the first independent Palestinian territory ever.

Everyone's expectation was that the Palestinians, so treated, would show the world what they could achieve with freedom. Alas, they have shown all too well. Not one day of peace has followed.

The pattern was set on the very day of Israel's pullout, when Palestinian forces fired rockets into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. The final straw was the tunneling under the border with Israel, the attack on an Israeli tank and the point-blank murder of two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping of a third.

A few days later, inspired by the rhetorical threats of Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah of Lebanon joined Hamas by attacking Israel from the north. They killed eight Israeli soldiers, kidnapped two others and began firing rockets into Israel.

The Palestinians have given the lie to virtually all the scenarios so hopefully envisaged by their friends. They did not construct schools, roads and hospitals; they made no effort to turn Gaza into a thriving state. They elected a radical Islamic Hamas government. They permitted the smuggling of huge quantities of weapons and terrorists while creating new bases for terror. Palestinian society has descended ever more into advanced anarchy.

At first, the Israelis tried nonlethal deterrence - diplomatic warnings, then sonic booms from jets. They failed. It was a sad demonstration of the truth in the metaphor that in the Middle East, the law of wild nature applies: An animal that is perceived as weak invites attack. The Israelis fell back on targeted assassinations against terrorist leadership, despite the unavoidable risk that nonterrorists might be killed since the terrorists - cynically and callously - hide among civilians.

Some suggest Israel should ignore the Hamas and Hezbollah rockets because they are puny and erratic. That's easy to say from an armchair, but every one of the rockets is intended to kill or maim as many Israeli civilians as possible. The Israeli town of Sderot lost 13 people from rocket fire. That city is now living under siege, and now the Palestinians have begun firing longer-range rockets that have reached larger cities.

The last thing Israel wanted to do was get involved again in Gaza, much less in Lebanon, but Hamas and Hezbollah gave them no choice. Who would doubt the U.S. response if rockets were raining from across the Mexican border into neighboring American cities or Canadian forces simultaneously killed and kidnapped Americans on U.S. soil? And who but Israel would be shipping basic foodstuffs, medicines and chlorine containers for purifying drinking water to avoid a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

And what about Mahmoud Abbas, the hope of the West? Sadly, what we have witnessed is the failure of Abbas to pressure the Hamas government. He did not meet the commitment he gave to Israeli officials to muster the forces for a house-to-house search to locate the abducted soldier. And he agreed to a version of Hamas' so-called prisoners' document - which reopens the most vital questions about Israel's right to exist and endorses terrorism and violence that should have been eliminated by now.

The Oslo agreement called for an end to terror. The prisoners' document is a manifesto for terror. It calls for continuing violence and for "popular resistance" against the occupation "in all its forms, places and policies," and "by all means," language long recognized as code for legitimizing the murder of Israelis.

Most critically, it advocates the right of return for some 4 million Palestinian refugees, the descendants of the 700,000 Arabs who fled during the 1948 War, primarily at the behest of their own leaders. These refugees are now proposed to be returned to pre-1967 Israel, virtually putting the Jews into a minority in their own country - the very situation that the UN ruled out in deciding the original partition of Palestine.

It is clear again that the core of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute stems not from Israel's unwillingness to compromise but from the nature of its adversary. Most fair-minded observers share the Israeli conclusion that there is no Palestinian partner for peace. The Middle East equation could not be starker or more depressing. It reveals once again that Hamas and the Palestinians, now joined by Hezbollah, their partners in terrorism and murder, both armed and financed by Iran, wish to get rid of Israel.

This will be a "long war" in which victory will be the culmination of a series of unavoidable catastrophes.
     
Taliesin
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Oh, and Taliesin:

Read Mort Zuckerman's article for today that I quoted on Page 7 of this thread then respond to that, will you?

He reflects the majority view regarding Israel's concessions and right to protect itself.
Oh, I read it, it just didn't inspire me to reply to it, since it is onesided propaganda putting the blame on the palestinians and ignoring the simultaneous actions of Israel. The angle the author takes is that the withdrawal from Gaza should have prompted the palestinians to become peaceful, but he ignores the fact that the Gaza-withdrawal was used by Israel's government to buy itself the US-support for a unilateral border-definition with further annexing of westbank-territories and espescially the freeing up from the task to make peace with the neighbours, since that would mean to tackle delicate topics like the fate of east-Jerusalem, the prisoner-topic and the scattered-refugee-problem...

No, what is needed is an article that neutrally analyses the whole situation and not some one-sided Israel-cheering.

Taliesin
     
Trygve
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin
No, what is needed is an article that neutrally analyses the whole situation and not some one-sided Israel-cheering.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Troll:

Answer this question: Do you think it is acceptable that the Palestinians - in the Gaza strip and coming in from Lebanon - routinely go into Israel and blow up INNOCENT Israelis and tourists in restaurants and hotels and buses? It's been going on for YEARS and there is no end in sight.
"The Palestinians" don't do this. SOME Palestinians do this. The issue here is collectively punishing all of the Palestinians and all of the Lebanese people for the acts of a few.

Israel has a terrorist problem because it has not been motivated enough to improve the Palestinian people's lot. The Palestinians have been tough customers too and I'm not blaming Israel entirely but the fact is that Israel has been in control of the Occupied Territories for 50 years and in all of that time, the Palestinians have gone nowhere. Their life expectancy rates, literacy rates - any measure you want to use shows the Occupied Territories to be years behind. Israel arbitrarily imprisons them (of the 4000 Palestinians Israel as captured in the OT's, Amnesty says 3000 are non-combatants who got military trials) and generally abuses their human rights. In any country anywhere in the world where a people goes nowhere but backwards for that long, they wind up turning to violence. And anywhere in the world that's ever happened, increasing the levels of oppression and killing more of them has never worked.

I absolutely agree that the Palestinian terrorists are wrong to target civilians but I should also point out that this particular flaring-up relates to Palestinian attacks on MILITARY TARGETS. Israel response to an attack on its MILITARY has been to inflict harm on the other side's civilians.
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
What I and others here are saying, Troll, is that after YEARS of trying to do things "nicely" through talks and peace negotiations, it has become clear to Israel that acting nicely and keeping to themselves is not working.
This notion that Israel has been the model of cooperation is absolute crap and you know it. Israel goes back on its word just as much as the Palestinians. Israel provokes just as much as the Palestinians do. Talk is cheap in any event. Palestinians are going nowhere and have been going nowhere for the last 50 years. Israel, as the country that imposes the status quo, will of course be the obvious target for Palestinian frustration.
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
What the hell do you expect Israel to do?
D-uh. I've answered that countless times. You just don't like the answer because it doesn't involve a quick fix like nuking Gaza.

Take out the terrorists and take urgent steps to improve the Palestinian's lives. Statehood, economic integration etc. End 50 years of oppression, end apartheid in the Occupied Territories, release political prisoners, start a formal peace process, put together a Marshall Plan for the territories and set a timetable of 2 years or less for full sovereignty.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:19 AM
 
They already tried "being nice to Palestine." The Palestinians did nothing during the entire time as Zuckerman pointed out. Nothing.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
They already tried "being nice to Palestine." The Palestinians did nothing during the entire time as Zuckerman pointed out. Nothing.
Who said that being nice was the solution? Being nice to Palestinians doesn't get them a state, doesn't end apartheid in the OT's, doesn't get them jobs. "Being nice" isn't enough. Besides which, if you look at when suicide bombings were at their lowest levels, it's when Israel was making peace. When Israel increases the violence, so do the Palestinians.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:33 AM
 
No. The truth is that the reason that there is ANY problem in the region is because of the hatred of Jews and Israelis. That's it.

Israel would gladly keep to itself and leave everyone alone if the rest of the Israeli-haters and Jew-haters would leave them alone. It doesn't happen.

So there is conflict.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:35 AM
 
Keep believing that Cody. The more people that believe that the more likely it is that Israel makes the fekk up needed to wake up the world. So spread that lie you believe in. Please do.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:39 AM
 
Great summary.

Uri Dan NEW YORK POST

July 14, 2006 -- JERUSALEM - Israel's mili tary was completely surprised by the bloody Hezbollah attack that reignited the 24-year-old border war.
But it is the Shiite terrorists who badly miscalculated.

In the six years since Israel pulled its troops out of southern Lebanon, Hezbollah's leader, Sayyad Hassan Nasrallah, had become used to mild responses when his forces fired across the border or tried to seize Israeli soldiers.

During that time, his arsenal of missiles, supplied by Iran through Syria, grew from 7,000 to more than 11,000 and he believed they could penetrate deep into Israel.

At a Beirut press conference - yes, in the Mideast, terrorists call press conferences - Nasrallah ridiculed Israel's new leadership as inexperienced amateurs trying to play a deadly game.

What Nasrallah didn't take into consideration is Israel's air force used the last six years for reconnaissance and mapping of every inch of Hezbollah's empire.

Not everything is known. But quite a bit is - about the location of arms depots and long-range missile sites.

Armed forces commander Dan Halutz, who carried out much of the intelligence gathering as air force commander, presented the Israeli government Wednesday night with two arguments:

First, it's either them or us.

Second, now is the best time to end the presence of "them" in southern Lebanon.

The government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert agreed and gave Halutz permission to get rid of "them."

The reaction in Israel so far is positive. Even many who opposed the 1982 invasion of Lebanon led by Ariel Sharon - and eagerly wanted the May 2000 troop pullout - are in favor of this operation.

Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who orchestrated the 2000 withdrawal, said yesterday that the current air offensive is designed to drive Hezbollah's military out of the area and convince the Beirut government, France and whoever else that matters to pressure Hezbollah never to threaten Israel again.

The targeting of Lebanon's infrastructure like the Beirut airport runways sends a signal.

It could have been a more forceful signal - such as if Israel blew up the airport's $500 million terminal.

But it was a message delivered.

The message: It's time for the Lebanese government to start acting like a government and take responsibility for what happens on its own soil.

Halutz made clear there would be a price to pay. Israel will suffer casualties.

But now is the right time, he said.

It isn't just three soldiers who have been taken hostage - but the 1.5 million Israelis who are within rocket range and are now on the front lines of a war.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:43 AM
 
And the article admits Israel commits war crimes. And the Americans around here start celebrating.....

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:46 AM
 
You're delusional. You make things up and then ignore facts. Like this from yakkiebah:

Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Of course I know who they are. But their name is Hizbollah. Not hizballah like vmarks continuously writes it. And there is only one reason for him to write it like that. And both you and I know why that is.

^ The name ‮حزب الله‬ is transliterated from the Arabic in a number of ways. An exact transliteration would be hizbu' llāh. Hezbollah is used by CNN and BBC. It is also written as Hizbullah, Hizballah, Hizbollah, Hezbollah, and the literal Arabic version Hizb Allah, which is used by Al Jazeera. "Hizb" (party) is the Modern Standard Arabic pronunciation, and "Hezb" is closer to Persian and to Lebanese dialect. The 'h' is pharyngeal in Arabic, but a normal 'h' sound in Persian. The "-llah" ending, originally "Allah", means "(the) God". The name is derived from a Qu'ranic aayat (verse) referring to those who belong to and follow the "Party of God".
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
You're delusional. You make things up and then ignore facts. Like this from yakkiebah:
Ignoring your constant personal attacks, from your own quote:

An exact transliteration would be hizbu' llāh.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:03 AM
 
Admit that you "attacked" vmarks for no reason, will you?



Admit that there are MANY "spellings" of Hizballah?

     
von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Admit that you "attacked" vmarks for no reason, will you?



Admit that there are MANY "spellings" of Hizballah?

I "attacked" vmarks a long time ago and got punished for it. You've continuously attacked me and nothing happened. I guess it's good being off the same "political" alignment as the moderators.....

And yes, there are many wrong spellings of Hizbullah. But as you can see, they are wrong.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:09 AM
 
I think when something is translated via phonetics that many spellings occur. None are necessarily wrong.

I've been nice to you previously. I attack your beliefs.

You appear to be anti-Semitic and personally I find that offensive. Just being honest with you. It has nothing to do with the mods. I've had many PMs from Demonhood about my posts here when I'm particularly inflammatory and I've even posted apologies here previously.

So, don't think anyone here gets preferential treatment from mods. Doesn't happen.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
I think when something is translated via phonetics that many spellings occur. None are necessarily wrong.

I've been nice to you previously. I attack your beliefs.

You appear to be anti-Semitic and personally I find that offensive. Just being honest with you. It has nothing to do with the mods. I've had many PMs from Demonhood about my posts here when I'm particularly inflammatory and I've even posted apologies here previously.

So, don't think anyone here gets preferential treatment from mods. Doesn't happen.


Is there a word that accounts for people being anti-Islamic or anti-Palestinian? anti-Semetic is just a hot-button word that conjures up concentration camps and such, and you are using it to gain debate leverage. Just because he doesn't side with the Israelies doesn't mean he wishes for them to all be dead and/or be tortured in concentration camps.

I think he is making a reasonable argument, and that your counter-arguments aren't strengthened with your sense of emotionally charged reactionary response.
     
yakkiebah
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:20 AM
 
von Wrangell keeps bringing it up because he likes to position himself as a victim.

Just like he continues to blame vmarks of things that aren't there. The use of God, or Allah, is clearly part of the name of Hizballah, huzbolly, Hazbilly, His willy - WHATEVER!
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:22 AM
 
besson3c:

NO. I find the comments to be anti-semitic. I know what I feel. And I come from a Jewish family (have Jewish relatives). I don't just "use it to gain debate leverage."

Until you come from a history of prejudice and discrimination don't presume to understand that you know how those who do feel. My grandfather died with a concentration camp tattoo on his arm. He died with a great deal of heartache and loss at the hands of other people who hated Jews - even though he was a little boy. He died with a great deal of loss generated by blatant and unfounded hatred. Going through his papers and personal effects, including letters, I was astounded, astonished, and even sickened.

     
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
besson3c:

NO. I find the comments to be anti-semitic. I know what I feel. And I come from a Jewish family (have Jewish relatives). I don't just "use it to gain debate leverage."

Until you come from a history of prejudice and discrimination don't presume to understand that you know how those who do feel.


What does whether you are Jewish or not have anything to do with what I've said?

You gave me the impression that you were labeling *him* as anti-semetic. It can be argued that you are anti-Palestinian (no fancy word for that). What does this mean? It means that you two have a difference of opinion. I don't think it is fair to demonize him with such a hot-button term.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
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Jul 14, 2006, 08:29 AM
 
Until you come from a history of having your entire RACE wiped out then don't presume to understand what it feels like. YOU DO NOT. Yes, Jews can forgive, but not forget.

I've never advocated wiping out every Palestinian because of their belief system or race.

But *some* people defend those who do advocate wiping out Israel.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Until you come from a history of having your entire RACE wiped out then don't presume to understand what it feels like. YOU DO NOT. Yes, Jews can forgive, but not forget.

I've never advocated wiping out every Palestinian because of their belief system or race.

But *some* people defend those who do advocate wiping out Israel.
Jews are not a race.
Palestinians are not a race.

At least get the basics right.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Until you come from a history of having your entire RACE wiped out then don't presume to understand what it feels like.
First off, how can anyone come from a race that was wiped out?

Secondly, Israel is a country. Got it? There are more Jews in the US than there are in Israel. Attacking Israel doesn't have to be an attack on Jews. Some of judaism's most famous living Jews are critical of Israel.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
Well done. You just restated the concept of collective punishment - the barbaric practice that civilized people abolished a long time ago.

Replace "Palestinian" with "Jewish" and set your computer's clock to 1939. Ironic isn't it? A country was established to right a genocide and now supporters of that country call for genocide to be committed in its name.
I can easily tell you're French, your concept of "civilized" is f@#%ed up beyond all comprehension.

If by "set your computer's clock to 1939" you mean "Muslims are becoming the new Aryans", yeah, you're right. This needs to be addressed now before it's get even more out of hand. The Jews in that time weren't blowing up their own children and terrorizing an entire region... and as far I know, weren't importing even more sick bastards into their land to do more of the same.

Get your head out of your ass and smell what you're shoveling.
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:49 AM
 
Since we have a "look, Israel is the victim-article" posted in this thread, I think it's time for a similarly biased "look, Palestine is the victim-article" to be quoted:

Echoes of 1948 and 1967
Israel's Latest Bureaucratic Obscenity

By JONATHAN COOK

The same malign intent from Israel towards the Palestinians is stamped through its history like the lettering in a children's stick of seaside rock. But despite the consistent aim of Israeli policy, generation after generation of Western politicians, diplomats and journalists has shown a repeated inability to grasp what is happening before its very eyes.
The Palestinian historian Rashid Khalidi once noted that the first goal of Israel's founders as they prepared to establish their Jewish state on a large swath of the Palestinian homeland in 1948 was to empty Palestine's urban heartlands of their educated elites.

Even before Israel's Declaration of Independence on 15 May 1948, most Palestinians had been terrified away from the two wealthiest cities in coastal Palestine, Jaffa and Haifa. Other Palestinian cities soon fell during the war of 1948: Israeli forces mostly cleansed Lydda, Ramle, Acre, Safad, Tiberias, Baysan and Bir Saba of their native populations. Today all these cities have been repopulated with Jews -- as well as renamed.

Khalidi has written: "These refugees from the urban areas of the country generally tended to be those Palestinians with the highest levels of literacy, skills, wealth, and education". Or, in other words, the small number of Palestinians allowed to remain in their homeland by Israel were peasant families living in isolated rural communities.

These Palestinians posed little threat to the new Jewish state: they lacked the education and tools to resist both the wholesale dispossession of their people and their own personal loss as their farm lands were expropriated by the state to establish the Jewish farming communes of the kibbutz and moshav movements.

And so history repeats itself. As Israel's violent siege of Gaza continues, the Associated Press reported this week that dozens of Palestinians with American passports have left Gaza, escorted out of the Strip in a convoy of United Nations vehicles. One Palestinian American mother said she and her children could no longer stand the terrifying sonic booms produced by Israeli aircraft flying overhead during the night.

These fleeing Palestinians have two things that most of their kin in Gaza lack: they have lots of money that they might have invested in rebuilding Gaza's economy were Israel not intent on destroying it; and they are familiar with a language and ideas that might have conveyed very effectively to Western audiences the horror currently being endured by Gaza's civilian population.

They are also among the least radicalised elements of Gaza's population and might have been the ones most willing to start a dialogue with Israel -- had Israel shown any interest in negotiating.

But of course their absence from Gaza, and flight to America, will not be mourned by Israel.

How much Israel fears the presence in the occupied territories of Palestinians who have lived in the West -- those who have money and influence, and speak in a language the non-Arab world can understand -- was highlighted in another piece of news this week that went mostly unnoticed.

According to the Haaretz newspaper, Israel's interior ministry has been quietly implementing a new rule since April that allows it to refuse entry to Palestinians holding foreign passports to Israel and the occupied territories. Most of those affected are Palestinians who today have citizenship in America or Europe.

Israel has this power over these Palestinians' lives because, since its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, it has usurped control of the borders of the Palestinian territories. In another sign of how mistaken Western observers are in believing that the occupation of Gaza somehow ended with the withdrawal of Jewish settlers last year, Israel is still able to prevent Palestinians with a foreign passport (as well as those from the West Bank) from entering Gaza.

This new policy of exclusion affects thousands of the wealthiest and most educated Palestinians, some of whom have been living in the occupied territories for a decade or more investing in the economy as entrepreneurs, teaching in the universities or establishing desperately needed civil society organisations.

In another irony, many of these Palestinians have a foreign passport only because Israel stripped them of their rights to residency in the occupied territories in violation of international law. Using its control of the area's borders since 1967, Israel revoked the residency of these Palestinians while they were studying or working abroad.

As the Israeli journalist Amira Hass documented in a recent dispatch, some of these Palestinians eventually came back to the occupied territories after marrying a local Palestinian resident but were refused rights of residency they should be entitled to according to the normal principles of family unification.

Instead most Palestinians with foreign passports have remained in the occupied territories at Israel's discretion: as long as they renewed their tourist visa every three months by crossing the border into Jordan or Egypt, they were left in relative peace.

But Israel is now unilaterally changing the rules (as it always does), even if it has been too embarrassed to declare the fact openly. Apparently the US embassy has been aware of the change for some time but does not think it should intervene in the "sovereign decisions" of another country -- or, more accurately, in the decisions of a sovereign country, Israel, in violating the rights of an occupied people, the Palestinians.

Palestinians with US passports have been told by Israel that, when their three-month visas expire, they will no longer be entitled to enter the occupied territories to visit their families -- except in rare "humanitarian cases" such as a close relative dying. Some will be separated from their spouse and children, while others will lose their businesses and everything they have invested in them.

With these foreign passport holders forced to leave the occupied territories, the pressure is sure to grow on their families left behind in Gaza and the West Bank to seek ways to emigrate abroad to be with them again.

The purpose of Israel's current bureaucratic obscenity is the same as it was in 1948 when its highest priority was the clearing of the Palestinian cities of their elites to make way for the establishment of the Jewish state.

This time Israel needs to empty the ghettoes it is crafting for the Palestinians of the most educated and well-connected of their number so that it can more credibly claim that there is no one "moderate" to talk to. Any Palestinian with a stake in an Israeli-imposed peace, even one that damages Palestinian national interests, will have been forced out by Israel's policies long before.

Those who remain behind, trapped by walls of concrete and steel, will be powerless to resist the unilateral and illegal expansion of Israel's borders explicit in Ehud Olmert's convergence plan.

When the only noise heard from the Palestinians in their cages is the occasional whine of a home-made Qassam rocket flying out of the ghetto into the Jewish state, we will be told by Israel and its US ally that terror is the only language the Palestinians know.

But, in truth, it may well be the only language we have left the Palestinians to speak.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. He is the author of the forthcoming "Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State" published by Pluto Press, and available in the United States from the University of Michigan Press. His website is www.jkcook.net
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Matius
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve
So Hezbollah captures two Israelis and Israel has the right to bomb Lebanese infrastructure? The US has captured a wide variety of people (lets assume that among them are Syrians, and Iranians) and is holding them in Cuba. I suppose that gives Iran and Syria the right to bomb American infrastructure, right? Do you think it is justified for Iran to destroy the runways at JFK? I think not.

Israel is way out of line here.
Let's get something straight here. Hezbollah crossed the border and KIDNAPPED two Israeli troops. We CAPTURED the detainees at Gitmo on the battlefield. Two completely separate scenarios. If it makes you feel better I would prefer to release the prisoners at Gitmo back to their location of capture too...and give them their AKs back as they get off the aircraft. Then the AC can leave just in time to see the newly released "detainees" be blasted into non-existence. That way your and my tax dollars won't be wasted giving them the best living conditions they have had to date. But I digress...oh, and Cody, sorry for taking your orginal thread off course with this reply. I agree with you though...I hope Israel crushes Hezbollah's nuts.
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von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Matius
Let's get something straight here. Hezbollah crossed the border and KIDNAPPED two Israeli troops. We CAPTURED the detainees at Gitmo on the battlefield. Two completely separate scenarios.
What's the difference?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
besson3c
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Jul 14, 2006, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Until you come from a history of having your entire RACE wiped out then don't presume to understand what it feels like. YOU DO NOT. Yes, Jews can forgive, but not forget.

I've never advocated wiping out every Palestinian because of their belief system or race.

But *some* people defend those who do advocate wiping out Israel.

Yes, but the Palestianians are not Hitler in being imperialistic, so there is no direct comparison just like many don't like Iraq being compared to Vietnam.


P.S. how do you know I'm not Jewish Canadian?
     
Matius
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
What's the difference?
Battlefield capture vs. straight up kidnapping. That is an obvious difference, at least for anyone who wants to see it.
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c
Yes, but the Palestianians are not Hitler in being imperialistic, so there is no direct comparison just like many don't like Iraq being compared to Vietnam.
No, but Islam as a whole is.
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von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Matius
Battlefield capture vs. straight up kidnapping. That is an obvious difference, at least for anyone who wants to see it.
You do know that several of the people held in GTMO were not captured in the battlefield? Because of that, did the US kidnap them?

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Jul 14, 2006, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
No, but Islam as a whole is.
Not more and not less than Christianity is.

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Jul 14, 2006, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
No, but Islam as a whole is.
Islam is like Hitler in being imperialistic?

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Jul 14, 2006, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
No, but Islam as a whole is.

Actually, if you look at things historically, Christians are just as imperialistic, if not more so than Islam.

I also have a hard time believing that the majority of Islam today is actively seeking and desires global conquest.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin
Not more and not less than Christianity is.

Taliesin
Really? Because I tell ya, I'm soooo tired of reading all the 1000s of articles about Christians blowing up their children in suicide bombings, or how they oppress women, or how they terrorize other religious groups on a multi-national scale, etc. etc.. Oh yeah, they're just sooo bad. We need Islam to save us from the barbarians!
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von Wrangell
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Really? Because I tell ya, I'm soooo tired of reading all the 1000s of articles about Christians blowing up their children in suicide bombings, or how they oppress women, or how they terrorize other religious groups on a multi-national scale, etc. etc.. Oh yeah, they're just sooo bad. We need Islam to save us from the barbarians!
Islam blows up children in suicide bombings?

Islam oppresses women?

Islam terrorizes other religious groups on a multi national scale?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
besson3c
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Really? Because I tell ya, I'm soooo tired of reading all the 1000s of articles about Christians blowing up their children in suicide bombings, or how they oppress women, or how they terrorize other religious groups on a multi-national scale, etc. etc.. Oh yeah, they're just sooo bad. We need Islam to save us from the barbarians!

In modern day times the power lusted after by Christians simply manifests itself differently, but certainly Christians as a whole, like all religions, do seek power to advance their own causes.

We are thankful that today they don't see what you've listed above as a productive means to an end, but let's not kid ourselves in saying that they are fundamentally different. In years past, Christians as a whole did similar things in the name of power and conquest. Just look at a great part of European history.

I'm not trying to slam Christianity here, but let's just call a spade a spade - Christianity has historically been extremely bloody. Some would say that overall, it has been even bloodier than Islamic history.
     
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:32 AM
 
Jesus, Christians have massacred more people, often other Christians, than any other religion in th world! I mean, Christians wiped out the "New World" natives, they massacred themselves in Europe, and they also massacred Jews in Spain, and Muslims in Spain and the "Holy Land."

And today mostly Christians societies like the US massacre civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq on a regular basis. I think that is also terrorism.

And how can people in the US talk about oppression? This country has oppressed others for hundreds of years, Indians, Blacks, people of occupied lands like the Philippines. Lately though the country has moved toward political correctness and suddenly MacNStein takes a holy than thou attitude. Your hands are dirty atomic America, you have no right to criticize others!
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Shaddim
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Islam blows up children in suicide bombings?

Islam oppresses women?

Islam terrorizes other religious groups on a multi national scale?
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Jul 14, 2006, 10:39 AM
 
Does the US indiscriminitaly kill women and children in bombing strikes? Yes
Does the US turn a blind eye towards human rights abuses of its allies? Yes
Does the US commit human rights abuses every day with its captives? Yes
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