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The resurgence of vinyl
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starman
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Sep 15, 2008, 02:50 PM
 
At first I thought that this resurgence of vinyl was a fad. A few albums here and there, mainly for people that can't stand CDs. I started buying older used vinyl for one specific purpose and that was to frame some of my favorite albums.

For the hell of it, I decided to hook up my USB turntable to my home theater system and see of the sound of these old albums holds up. In doing so, I found that if I dropped a needle on an album I would actually sit and LISTEN to it. It's strange. I can sit with the CD in my has just as much as with an album, but there's something about sitting with an album and paying attention to it that I haven't done with a CD, at least in a long time. For me, I get a CD, pop it in my car and listen to it while driving, which probably isn't the best way to listen to something for the first time. Plus, it's hard to find time to listen to an album when you have a family to take care of.

Yesterday I went back to the record store I bought the used vinyl last week and looked through some of the new reissues. Last week I bought NIN's Year Zero and Ghosts on vinyl, but I had no intention of buying any other new vinyl. Yesterday I bought more than I wanted. Boston's first album, Thriller (2-record set), Led Zeppelin IV, an old Synergy album on CLEAR vinyl (sealed, $20), and a few other new albums I can't think of off the top of my head. The used albums were Journey's Infinity, Yes' YesSongs (I think it's 8 or 10-sided. Wicked packaging), Jean Michel Jarre's Oxygene (for framing!), and a few others.

The sound quality is different than CD, but not better. It's apples and oranges. Listening to "Lights In The Sky" on vinyl is different than CD because you get a different sound but on CD you don't get the hiss and pops and little dust sounds. It's a tradeoff, and when I dumped my vinyl in '86 it was much more convenient to have a CD player in the car than to buy something on vinyl, record it to tape, and use the tape.

Now I find that Rush, U2, Maiden, Bon Jovi, and a bunch of other bands are starting to re-release their material on vinyl. Marketing gimmick, or does anyone think there's something to it?

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Dual Porpoise
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Sep 15, 2008, 02:53 PM
 
There is a tactile joy to vinyl that you just don't get with anything else.
     
Eug
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Sep 15, 2008, 02:55 PM
 
Personally I think vinyl usually sounds worse, even with moderately high dollar systems. You're right in that that its sound quality is different than CD, but not better.

The only record player I own now is a grammaphone, which I listen to purely because I think grammaphones are cool antiques... that sound like crap.
     
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:15 PM
 
You are right that it's not all about sound quality though - the experience of using the gramophone is cool.
     
Doofy
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:18 PM
 
So what we're saying is that vinyl looks nicer (no doubt) and is more of an event but the sound isn't a selling point and can be acquired via a bit of jiggery-pokery with a warm EQ behind the CD player sort of thingy?
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Dual Porpoise
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:21 PM
 
Sound is certainly one dimension (a major one) of the whole experience of handling, looking at the album art, reading the notes, putting the thing on and playing it, but not the only one.
     
olePigeon
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:22 PM
 
I think vinyl adds character to music. I love listening to Zeppelin, Jefferson, and Neil Diamond on record rather than CD. It's how I remember the music when I was a kid, so it's a real kick to get the same feeling even today. Dunno if that made any sense.
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starman  (op)
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:32 PM
 
I have some vinyl that I also have on SACD and/or DVD-A. I'll have to compare them directly.

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Eug
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So what we're saying is that vinyl looks nicer (no doubt) and is more of an event but the sound isn't a selling point and can be acquired via a bit of jiggery-pokery with a warm EQ behind the CD player sort of thingy?
One thing I found interesting way back when:

Carver made a stereo component that warmified music via EQ, to shift CD sound to be more vinyl-like.

In a blinded test, every single reviewer rated the Carver component-modified sound as sounding worse than CD. Obviously, this can't be equated to vinyl, because it wasn't vinyl, but I do find the study interesting nonetheless. (No weblink. It was a magazine-sponsored test from the 80s.)
     
IceEnclosure
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:49 PM
 
You can use vinyl, djs will move on to Serato.
ice
     
osiris
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:54 PM
 
The best thing about vinyl is the large print/graphics you get with it. That's pretty much it, imo.

Tube amps are quite nice, though.
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Sep 15, 2008, 03:57 PM
 
The mastering for vinyl and CD are different. Loudness is the issue. Vinyl will always sound better because of the limitations of the media which require it to be mastered differently.

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Doofy
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Sep 15, 2008, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
One thing I found interesting way back when:

Carver made a stereo component that warmified music via EQ, to shift CD sound to be more vinyl-like.

In a blinded test, every single reviewer rated the Carver component-modified sound as sounding worse than CD. Obviously, this can't be equated to vinyl, because it wasn't vinyl, but I do find the study interesting nonetheless. (No weblink. It was a magazine-sponsored test from the 80s.)
Hmm.. I can see that.

The point of a warm EQ these days would be to round off the sharp, brittle edges of the all-digital recording. But back in the 80s I think two things were happening with regard to this test: Everyone was on the "sharper is better" kick (so were tuned to the raw CD sound) and music was, in the main, recorded on analogue stuff anyway - thus such an EQ would have been trying to warm up a CD which was probably already warm enough, leading to mush and woolliness.

At a guess.
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andi*pandi
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Sep 15, 2008, 04:38 PM
 
these guys like vinyl:

http://yardsalevinyl.com/
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 15, 2008, 05:47 PM
 
The other thing to note is that lots of people who are addicted to vinyl have expensive, well-calibrated turntables and high-quality needles. Thus you don't really get as much of the traditional "hiss and pop" sound one kinda associates with vinyl.

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Sep 15, 2008, 07:07 PM
 
I buy all of my music on vinyl and/or digital download. A lot of labels give you a download code for the music when buying the album on vinyl. Best of both worlds.

I never, ever felt the love for CDs. I bought them because they were convenient, but the minute mp3s became available it was good bye to the CD player, hello software.

I've got a 1965 Dual turntable hooked up to a B&O Beomaster 1900 from 1975 and I love the sound.
     
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Sep 15, 2008, 07:32 PM
 
What Dual turntable, by the way? Last year I was going to grab a 506, I think it was, but ended up not going for it.

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Sep 15, 2008, 11:02 PM
 
A Dual 1218. I bought it from a collector who had completely refurbished it, new cartridge, new wiring, new everything. It's a beautiful piece of machinery.
     
scaught
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Sep 16, 2008, 03:48 PM
 
I don't know if it's seen a resurgence, there's always been vinyl versions of a lot of albums (even by the major labels) for a long ass time. The 180gram records became popular a few years back (the first I remember was a shellac record, although they're not on a major) and it seems like a lot of bands released or rereleased their stuff on those.

In the independent music arena, vinyl is still popular, although not as much so as before the itunes era.
     
analogika
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Sep 16, 2008, 04:35 PM
 
Vinyl never went away.
     
Don Pickett
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Sep 16, 2008, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
You can use vinyl, djs will move on to Serato.
DJs have already moved on to iPods, if only for convenience.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
Mastrap
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Sep 16, 2008, 09:54 PM
 
Not any of the DJs I know.
     
repeater
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Sep 16, 2008, 10:23 PM
 
i only ever buy vinyl nowadays.
     
Mastrap
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Sep 16, 2008, 10:55 PM
 
I am listening to vinyl right now. No DRM here, baby.


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IceEnclosure
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Sep 17, 2008, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
Not any of the DJs I know.

plus one.
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Don Pickett
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Sep 17, 2008, 04:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
Not any of the DJs I know.
Most of the big DJs use digital files now, whether on iPods or laptops. There is some vinyl in the mix, but you just don't find people pressing short run or white label vinyl that much any more. As the song is likely mixed with Pro Tools, it's much more likely to be on a CD-R.

Besides the fact that, on your typical club sound system you won't year the difference between mp3 and vinyl, there is the fact that it's much easier to carry around a laptop or a couple iPods than a bunch of records. I read an interview with Oakenfold about eight years ago in which he talked about the tour he was then on. He carried between four to five hundred records for his performances, and in the space of one year the airlines had lost his records four times. That's a huge inconvenience, plus cancelled or postponed shows, angry fans, etc. With digital files a DJ can carry thousands of records on the plane and never worry about losing them.
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hayesk
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Sep 18, 2008, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
For the hell of it, I decided to hook up my USB turntable to my home theater system and see of the sound of these old albums holds up.
A USB turntable digitizes the audio to CD-quality audio. Listen to it on a completely analog system and it'll sound better.

A good analog system will always sound better than digital if it was produced well. However, the difference is often beyond what you can perceive. Some people can hear the difference, some can not.
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 18, 2008, 09:14 PM
 
according to a guy I work with who belongs to a DJ group on the side, it's cd but also MP3.
     
starman  (op)
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Sep 18, 2008, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
A USB turntable digitizes the audio to CD-quality audio. Listen to it on a completely analog system and it'll sound better.

A good analog system will always sound better than digital if it was produced well. However, the difference is often beyond what you can perceive. Some people can hear the difference, some can not.
It's a real turntable with an ADDED USB connector. I'm using PHONO IN to listen to it.

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analogika
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Sep 19, 2008, 02:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
CD-quality audio
This term always cracks me up, because it's so often used as if it meant anything.

(The largest consumer advisory organization in Germany had a brief spell of idiocy in the late 80s, where they publicly announced that they were no longer going to test CD players, as they were all 16-bit/44kHz "CD quality" digital audio, and thus sounded identical. )
     
- - e r i k - -
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Sep 19, 2008, 04:28 AM
 
If a chain is all digital without errors then yes, it will sound identical.
Very unlikely in the late eighties of course

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- - e r i k - -
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Sep 19, 2008, 04:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Most of the big DJs use digital files now, whether on iPods or laptops. There is some vinyl in the mix, but you just don't find people pressing short run or white label vinyl that much any more. As the song is likely mixed with Pro Tools, it's much more likely to be on a CD-R.

Besides the fact that, on your typical club sound system you won't year the difference between mp3 and vinyl, there is the fact that it's much easier to carry around a laptop or a couple iPods than a bunch of records. I read an interview with Oakenfold about eight years ago in which he talked about the tour he was then on. He carried between four to five hundred records for his performances, and in the space of one year the airlines had lost his records four times. That's a huge inconvenience, plus cancelled or postponed shows, angry fans, etc. With digital files a DJ can carry thousands of records on the plane and never worry about losing them.
There is also the best of both worlds.

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Doofy
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Sep 19, 2008, 04:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
If a chain is all digital without errors then yes, it will sound identical.
Oh man, here we go again.
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analogika
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Sep 19, 2008, 05:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
If a chain is all digital without errors then yes, it will sound identical.
Very unlikely in the late eighties of course
Even IF you were right (which you're not, as a) clock jitter is an all-digital phenomenon that destroys audio quality and can be caused, among other things, by low-quality cables and mediocre hardware design, and b) CDs aren't read bit-for-bit by audio CD players, which makes for considerable differences in the audio stream, pre- and post-error "correction"), you're completely ignoring the fact that there is no such thing as an "all-digital" audio stream as long as anybody is LISTENING TO IT.


The subject of digital audio has been done with references and theoretical background in one of the Ca$h threads, though, so I'm not going there again.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Sep 19, 2008, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Even IF you were right (which you're not, as a) clock jitter is an all-digital phenomenon that destroys audio quality and can be caused, among other things, by low-quality cables and mediocre hardware design, and b) CDs aren't read bit-for-bit by audio CD players, which makes for considerable differences in the audio stream, pre- and post-error "correction"), you're completely ignoring the fact that there is no such thing as an "all-digital" audio stream as long as anybody is LISTENING TO IT.


The subject of digital audio has been done with references and theoretical background in one of the Ca$h threads, though, so I'm not going there again.
You did not read my whole post, nor even my complete first sentence.

How completely and utterly predictable.

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analogika
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Sep 19, 2008, 11:24 AM
 
Actually, I did.

Even the white type.

I guess I just missed a joke, or something.
     
Doofy
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Sep 19, 2008, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I guess I just missed a joke, or something.
That makes two of us.
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analogika
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Sep 19, 2008, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
That makes two of us.
Sympathetic comment instead of quick quip about Germans and humour!?


     
Doofy
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Sep 19, 2008, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Sympathetic comment instead of quick quip about Germans and humour!?


I'm feeling German today.
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Sep 19, 2008, 05:07 PM
 
If I'm listening to music at home, it's usually on my turntables. If I'm listening in the car (which is rare), it's MP3 or Sirius. Ever since I bought my VPI HR-X I just can't get enough vinyl, it's been a wonderful experience and completely changed my habits.

Compact disc is almost dead to me now, I've only purchased 5 CDs in the last 6 months. Though I do still grab new SACDs when the mood strikes me.
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Sep 19, 2008, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm feeling German today.
What's her name?
     
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Sep 19, 2008, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Ever since I bought my VPI HR-X I just can't get enough vinyl
Wow. I am not surprised. That is a beauty.
     
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Sep 19, 2008, 08:28 PM
 
     
IceEnclosure
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Sep 19, 2008, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
If I'm listening to music at home, it's usually on my turntables. If I'm listening in the car (which is rare), it's MP3 or Sirius. Ever since I bought my VPI HR-X I just can't get enough vinyl, it's been a wonderful experience and completely changed my habits.


That looks sick. What kind of musics do you listen to on it?
ice
     
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Sep 19, 2008, 08:50 PM
 
That's the kind of turntable you need serious vinyl for. Something that's been pressed from an original tape, or as close as possible.
     
Shaddim
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Sep 19, 2008, 09:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
Wow. I am not surprised. That is a beauty.
Got one hell of a deal on it too, less than half of retail with very few hours. Need to look at a new cartridge though, next I might try a Grado Master or Reference.

That looks sick. What kind of musics do you listen to on it?
Yeah, it's pretty. I "grew up" using Nottingham `tables, so the design appealed to me. For me, the HR-X is the next evolutionary step.

Edit: I listen to anything and everything; classical of all types, jazz, blues, rock, metal, bluegrass, etc.. Though, I'm not a fan of modern country or hip hop/rap.
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Sep 19, 2008, 09:20 PM
 
Direct to Disk Vinyl from Sheffield or M&K or the like will sound superior to the digital junk that the modern fool thinks is so great because of dynamic range. They usually don't listen to live performances, and it shows in their music. Sure, you need a fine playback system, but they can be had for around $1K. I still use my FONS CQ30 Modified, SME arm and a few carts. a new ClearAudio, and a classic Grace F9e Super are my current favorites. I use a DB Systems Preamp and power amp and a pair of KEF 104aB monitors. Accurate systems are a double edged sword however. You can hear everything, Good and bad.
     
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Sep 19, 2008, 11:42 PM
 
Audiophile: one who thinks he can hear money.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Sep 20, 2008, 12:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Audiophile: one who thinks he can hear money.
What's the point in making a comment like that? Why do you care?
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Shaddim
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Sep 20, 2008, 12:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
That's the kind of turntable you need serious vinyl for. Something that's been pressed from an original tape, or as close as possible.
I try and stick to quality 180 and 200g pressings from original masters, but they're sometimes difficult to find. Not that I think weight matters much, it just seems they take more care in production. However, I do seem to be hit-and-miss with new pressings. Not that very many are horrible, just mediocre.
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