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analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 7, 2007, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Are there mac compatible HD-DVD burners and software?

Lots of BR ones and Toast also supports BR. Not HD-DVD.

hmurchison2001 · Apr 7, 2007, 04:01 AM

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm what Planet are you guys from?

Apple has been shipping HD DVD authoring support in DVD Studio Pro 4 for over a year. You don't need a HD DVD burner for HD DVD content as you can burn HD content to standard DVD-R

Apple - Final Cut Studio - DVD Studio Pro

Author in HD or SD

Showcase your SD or HD content with greater speed, efficiency, and flexibility than ever before. Integrated, scalable H.264 encoding allows you to fit HD content on DVDs using existing drives and media. Go from native HDV to HD on DVD with no recompression from Final Cut Pro. Even create HD DVD versions from existing SD DVD projects.

Macworld: Review: DVD Studio Pro 4

There’s just one problem: no current consumer DVD player can play back HD-DVDs. Manufacturers have shown prototypes at conventions, but you won’t find any players at your local Circuit City. If you burn an HD-DVD, there’s just one place you can play it: on a Power Mac G5 (not on a Power Mac G4 or any PowerBook) running OS X 10.4 and Apple’s DVD Player 4.6.

Not to bash Blu-ray as I hope Apple adds Blu-ray authoring support to DVD Studio Pro 5 at NAB this year but people are comfortably playing back their HD homegrown content on Toshiba HD DVD players after authoring them in DVD SP 4. In fact the most recent 4.1.2 update fixed muxing problems an allowed the use of h.264 at higher bitrates.

It should be trivial to add support for the actual HD DVD burners and hopefully Apple will support the HDi interactive layer.

goMac · Apr 7, 2007, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

It should be trivial to add support for the actual HD DVD burners and hopefully Apple will support the HDi interactive layer.

Exactly. DVD Studio Pro has supported burning HD DVD's long before HD DVD burners were available. All this Apple hates HD DVD stuff is nonsense.

Eug · Apr 7, 2007, 09:29 AM

According to Sony itself (actually Nielsen), up to the week ended March 18, 2007:

2007 year to date Blu-ray disc sales are 549730 units.
2007 year to date HD DVD disc sales are 249452 units.

As expected, the #1 performing hi-def disc ever released was Casino Royale. OTOH:

Cumulative Blu-ray disc sales are 844000 units.
Cumulative HD DVD disc sales are 708600 units.

So, as of mid-March, Blu-ray is "winning" by a ratio of 6:5. Anyone dreaming of a quick end to this war is fooling themselves.

P.S. The single studio with the most planned releases for 2007 is Universal (according to page 12 of that Sony document), with 31 titles. Sony is only planning 19, and the very vocal Fox has all of 4.

icruise · Apr 7, 2007, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

According to Sony itself (actually Nielsen), up to the week ended March 18, 2007:

2007 year to date Blu-ray disc sales are 549730 units.
2007 year to date HD DVD disc sales are 249452 units.

As expected, the #1 performing hi-def disc ever released was Casino Royale. OTOH:

Cumulative Blu-ray disc sales are 844000 units.
Cumulative HD DVD disc sales are 708600 units.

So, as of mid-March, Blu-ray is "winning" by a ratio of 6:5. Anyone dreaming of a quick end to this war is fooling themselves.

I hate to play the PS3 card again, but just look at those numbers. Before the PS3 came out, there were no reasonably priced Blu-ray players, so it's hardly surprising that HD-DVD was ahead. So of course the cumulative numbers are going to be close. But now the PS3 is out and Blu-ray stand alones are starting to come down in price a little bit, and you have Blu-ray outselling HD-DVD more than 2 to 1.

If you'll look back at the beginning of this thread, you'll recall that much was made of the fact that HD-DVD was ahead in sales. I remember clicking on the DVD Wars link and seeing that HD-DVD was ahead in almost every category. Now it's Blu-ray that's ahead in every case. I do agree that it's too early to declare a winner, but if Blu-ray is doing this well now, how well do you think it'll do once the standalone players get to a reasonable price point?

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 7, 2007, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Now it's Blu-ray that's ahead in every case. I do agree that it's too early to declare a winner, but if Blu-ray is doing this well now, how well do you think it'll do once the standalone players get to a reasonable price point?

Sony said they will have a $600 Stand along player by October. Keep in mind that sony stuff is usually priced a bit higher so other manufacturers might have cheaper ones.

Also Apple will probably have them as BTO by July for the MacPros.

jokell82 · Apr 7, 2007, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Sony said they will have a $600 Stand along player by October. Keep in mind that sony stuff is usually priced a bit higher so other manufacturers might have cheaper ones.

Also Apple will probably have them as BTO by July for the MacPros.

Why not just add them with the last update a few days ago? Since Apple is supporting HD-DVD as well it's just as likely they'll add both as a BTO option.

goMac · Apr 7, 2007, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Also Apple will probably have them as BTO by July for the MacPros.

I seriously doubt we'll see HD-DVD or Bluray players on the consumer machines for a long time. In fact, I think we'll see burners only, and only on the Mac Pros. The only reason Apple is going to add support for HD-DVD and Bluray right now is for professionals who have to create content in one format or the other. They're going to stay away from putting Bluray or HD-DVD on the consumer machines until there is a clear winner. And there is no reason to put HD-DVD or Bluray players on the Mac Pros at this point, given that the drives will be added for content creation, not content playback.

Apple's not going to be pushing the format war one way or another.

jokell82 · Apr 7, 2007, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

They're going to stay away from putting Bluray or HD-DVD on the consumer machines until there is a clear winner.

Unless they decide to pick a side and try to end the format "war" altogether.

goMac · Apr 7, 2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Unless they decide to pick a side and try to end the format "war" altogether.

Doubtful. A lot of smaller studios use HD-DVD, and Final Cut is popular in smaller studios. They wouldn't cut HD-DVD. And they've already said they'll support Bluray too. I don't think Apple would want to lose business by choosing a side. (Not to mention Apple already supports HD-DVD).

From what I've heard actually, Apple won't support either format until there is a clear winner, but I still think they're likely to put burners on the Mac pros for content creation.

Eug · Apr 7, 2007, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I hate to play the PS3 card again, but just look at those numbers. Before the PS3 came out, there were no reasonably priced Blu-ray players, so it's hardly surprising that HD-DVD was ahead. So of course the cumulative numbers are going to be close. But now the PS3 is out and Blu-ray stand alones are starting to come down in price a little bit, and you have Blu-ray outselling HD-DVD more than 2 to 1.

If you'll look back at the beginning of this thread, you'll recall that much was made of the fact that HD-DVD was ahead in sales. I remember clicking on the DVD Wars link and seeing that HD-DVD was ahead in almost every category. Now it's Blu-ray that's ahead in every case. I do agree that it's too early to declare a winner, but if Blu-ray is doing this well now, how well do you think it'll do once the standalone players get to a reasonable price point?

I think the point of all of this is that it confirms that PS3 buyers just aren't the same as standalone buyers.

In a period of relatively few HD DVD releases, Blu-ray discs outsold HD DVD 2 to 1, despite having what, a 10:1 install base of Blu-ray players compared to HD DVD players.

Yes, gamers buy movies, but it's clear that they don't buy very many of them in comparison.

That's why I've said all along... that unless Sony were to have a quick, smooth, and well-priced PS3 launch right from the get go, the PS3 isn't going to win the hi-def movie format war for them.

And indeed, after the botched PS3 launch, just as we predicted it's heading for a stalemate. It's no surprise that Samsung is releasing a hybrid player this year.

goMac · Apr 7, 2007, 05:04 PM

Right. As the numbers show, either a) PS3 owners simply aren't buying Bluray discs except in small pockets or b) Bluray owners in general do not buy nearly as many titles as HD-DVD owners.

Eug · Apr 7, 2007, 05:37 PM

Well, that was quick... The $299 price point has been achieved.

The Toshiba HD-A2 second generation HD DVD player is now $299 including 5 free HD DVDs (and one vendor is even including a free HDMI cable too). (The list price is $399, but street prices range from about $299-349 right now.)

Now the next target is a $299 hybrid player, or else a $199 HD DVD player.

In the meantime, the $499 20 GB PS3 has disappeared from both SonyStyle.com and BestBuy. Only the 60 GB is available, for $599.

goMac · Apr 7, 2007, 08:07 PM

Also of note, the $500 PS3 seems to have been canned. It's gone from the Sony store also. Retailers are reporting shortages of the unit.

This raises the price of entry for Bluray to $600.

aristotles · Apr 7, 2007, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm what Planet are you guys from?

Apple has been shipping HD DVD authoring support in DVD Studio Pro 4 for over a year. You don't need a HD DVD burner for HD DVD content as you can burn HD content to standard DVD-R

Apple - Final Cut Studio - DVD Studio Pro

Macworld: Review: DVD Studio Pro 4

Not to bash Blu-ray as I hope Apple adds Blu-ray authoring support to DVD Studio Pro 5 at NAB this year but people are comfortably playing back their HD homegrown content on Toshiba HD DVD players after authoring them in DVD SP 4. In fact the most recent 4.1.2 update fixed muxing problems an allowed the use of h.264 at higher bitrates.

It should be trivial to add support for the actual HD DVD burners and hopefully Apple will support the HDi interactive layer.

I was talking about consumer level support. I'm not shelling out $1,499.00 CAD (1,299.00 USD) to author my home movies. I fully expect to see blu-ray authoring in iLife within a year. For now, you can use Toast Titanium.

exca1ibur · Apr 7, 2007, 10:55 PM

PS3 20GB model

"Overwhelmingly, retailers have been requesting the 60GB model, the mix has been about 80 percent 60GB, 20 percent 20GB retailer orders."

The reason for the 20GB model phasing out over time.

icruise · Apr 7, 2007, 11:08 PM

So they say. And it may be true. The Xbox Core system is so incredibly gimped that most people rightly think that it's a bad deal, and I think a lot of people mistakenly think the same thing about the "low-end" PS3. And a lot of people just like to get the top of the line, even if they don't really need its features. I'd be shocked if very many PS3 owners are going to use anywhere near 60GB of space (at least until Sony starts renting/selling video) so the only meaningful difference is the built-in wifi.

In any case, I think it's a mistake to phase out the 20GB model, since it made the PS3 seem more competitive with the Xbox 360. Of course Sony would prefer that people buy the 60GB model since it has higher margins (or should I say smaller negative margins?) but they seem to be ignoring the psychological aspect. Having your product be so much more expensive than the competition automatically puts you on the defensive.

goMac · Apr 7, 2007, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

I was talking about consumer level support. I'm not shelling out $1,499.00 CAD (1,299.00 USD) to author my home movies. I fully expect to see blu-ray authoring in iLife within a year. For now, you can use Toast Titanium.

Not until there is a clear winner. Plus, who's home movies need discs larger than 10 gigs anyway? iMovie is limited to 720p.

Apple will only support HD-DVD or Bluray for people (read: professionals) that want to author that content. The number of people who are going to buy an iMac to author Bluray or HD-DVD content is slim to none. It'll be Mac Pro's only, and BTO only. If a non Pro users really needs Bluray or HD-DVD, they can buy a burner themselves. It simply isn't worth it to offer Bluray or HD-DVD at a consumer level.

Eug · 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Not until there is a clear winner. Plus, who's home movies need discs larger than 10 gigs anyway? iMovie is limited to 720p.

Apple will only support HD-DVD or Bluray for people (read: professionals) that want to author that content. The number of people who are going to buy an iMac to author Bluray or HD-DVD content is slim to none. It'll be Mac Pro's only, and BTO only. If a non Pro users really needs Bluray or HD-DVD, they can buy a burner themselves. It simply isn't worth it to offer Bluray or HD-DVD at a consumer level.

The iMac is more than capable for authoring Blu-ray and HD DVD content. Remember, the current iMac is as powerful as the mid-range Power Mac from just one year ago.

Eug's late 2006 iMac:
24" widescreen
Dual-core 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo
nVidia 7600 GT 256 MB
500 GB hard drive + Firewire 800

Early 2006 mid-range Power Mac:
Dual-core 2.3 GHz G5
nVidia 7600 GT 256 MB
500 GB hard drive + Firewire 800 + extra drive bays

P.S. The current iMac seems to be popular for low end pro photography setups.

icruise · Apr 8, 2007, 01:11 AM

I think it's conceivable that Apple would at least include a Blu-ray burner in the towers, since it is very attractive for backups in addition to using it for HD video. Remember that Apple included DVD-RAM with their towers back when it was very new. They were also pretty early in including DVD-R in their consumer machines, but at that point DV camcorders were plentiful, so they were addressing a real demand. HD camcorders are still rare enough that it'll be a while before lots of people will want to burn their own HD movies. That said, if the drives come down in price soon enough, I could see them appearing even in the consumer models. After all, they can burn regular DVDs as well, right?

By the way, can someone point to a source saying that Apple as a company is supporting both HD-DVD and Blu-ray?

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm what Planet are you guys from?

Apple has been shipping HD DVD authoring support in DVD Studio Pro 4 for over a year. You don't need a HD DVD burner for HD DVD content as you can burn HD content to standard DVD-R.

I could be wrong, but I think you are misunderstanding what this means. We are talking about support for the media. Of course DVD Studio Pro can author HD video in MPEG-2 or h.264 formats, as the article says. But can you burn it to an actual HD-DVD disc?

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Not until there is a clear winner. Plus, who's home movies need discs larger than 10 gigs anyway? iMovie is limited to 720p.

Uh, no. It depends on what the source material is. My Sony High Def DV Camera records in 1080i and iMovie will detect the incoming video and create the project in the appropriate resolution. I have iMovie projects in 1080 res. What does the capacity have to do with anything when you cannot actually burn HD-DVD at all on the mac with consumer level hardware and software?

Originally Posted by goMac

Apple will only support HD-DVD or Bluray for people (read: professionals) that want to author that content. The number of people who are going to buy an iMac to author Bluray or HD-DVD content is slim to none. It'll be Mac Pro's only, and BTO only. If a non Pro users really needs Bluray or HD-DVD, they can buy a burner themselves. It simply isn't worth it to offer Bluray or HD-DVD at a consumer level.

Right now, yes but within a year things may be different. Right at this moment, you can buy Blu-ray burners for the mac. You cannot buy HD-DVD burners at the consumer level for the mac right now. Toast Titanium 8 supports Blu-ray burning of HD video. It only costs 79 USD and most Blu-ray burners come with it included.

Given that it is already available for a consumer product that is less than 90 bucks, I don't see it as being far fetched that we will see Blu-ray support in iLife '08.

Eug · Apr 8, 2007, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

I could be wrong, but I think you are misunderstanding what this means. We are talking about support for the media. Of course DVD Studio Pro can author HD video in MPEG-2 or h.264 formats, as the article says. But can you burn it to an actual HD-DVD disc?

The HD discs that DVD Studio Pro can burn meet the HD DVD spec. The discs will play back on a standalone HD DVD player, as an HD DVD (not a DVD).

Originally Posted by aristotles

Right at this moment, you can buy Blu-ray burners for the mac. You cannot buy HD-DVD burners at the consumer level for the mac right now. Toast Titanium 8 supports Blu-ray burning of HD video. It only costs 79 USD and most Blu-ray burners come with it included.

While it's good that Toast 8 supports Blu-ray, Toast is about as crappy as it gets when it comes to authoring movie discs. ie. If I had a Blu-ray drive, I'd use Toast more for Blu-ray data storage than anything.

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

The iMac is more than capable for authoring Blu-ray and HD DVD content. Remember, the current iMac is as powerful as the mid-range Power Mac from just one year ago.

Eug's late 2006 iMac:
24" widescreen
Dual-core 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo
nVidia 7600 GT 256 MB
500 GB hard drive + Firewire 800

Early 2006 mid-range Power Mac:
Dual-core 2.3 GHz G5
nVidia 7600 GT 256 MB
500 GB hard drive + Firewire 800 + extra drive bays

P.S. The current iMac seems to be popular for low end pro photography setups.

It's more than capable, but what's the target market? I mean, take the iMac buyer target market, take the percentage of that that edits video content, then take the percentage of that that works in HD, then the percentage of that market that has a Bluray or HD-DVD drive to playback the content on, and then the percentage of that already tiny market that has video long enough that it needs to go on a Bluray or HD-DVD disc.

It's a tiny tiny market. There's really no reason to offer Bluray or HD-DVD on the iMac. I mean, we're talking about a company that thought dual layer DVD was so unimportant they could leave it off the first revision Macbook Pros.

Until there is a clear winner in the format wars Apple won't be interested in selling drives to consumers that could be useless in a few years. They're going to sell to professionals who know what they're getting into, and even then I think Apple might just go with a dual format drive. Everything I've heard from a vaguely Apple direction is that they don't have an interest currently in shipping HD-DVD or Bluray drives to consumers. Maybe next year we'll see the drives start to come down to consumer lines. Definetly not this year, aside from NAB where we will probably see high def drives on the Mac Pro.

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Given that it is already available for a consumer product that is less than 90 bucks, I don't see it as being far fetched that we will see Blu-ray support in iLife '08.

Given that Bluray and HD-DVD use the exact same codecs, we're much more likely to see the support both. I'd be willing to bet 10.5 will ship with built in support for HD-DVD and Bluray drives.

Mrjinglesusa · Apr 8, 2007, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Also of note, the $500 PS3 seems to have been canned. It's gone from the Sony store also. Retailers are reporting shortages of the unit.

This raises the price of entry for Bluray to $600.

Nope. $470.00

Amazon.com: Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-Ray Disc Player: Electronics

And the Toshiba A2 HD DVD player can be had for less than $300.

I just picked up a Toshiba XA2 to go along with my 60 GB PS3. The upscaling of standard DVDs on the XA2 is incredible.

Screw this "war". Being format neutral is HD movie heaven.

Mrjinglesusa · Apr 8, 2007, 09:51 AM

BTW, you can get 30% off Warner HD DVDs and Blu-ray:

Warner Bros. Online: DVD Shop Browsing

You can get 30% off by stacking codes. If you spend over $60.00 you can get free shipping:

WBNEWS Gives you 20% off

USD Gives you 10% off

This works for preorder titles as well. Not any type of affiliate link or other nonsense. Just a really good deal if you are into Warner movies (including the Matrix box sets and Planet Earth box set).

Eug · Apr 8, 2007, 10:55 AM

FutureShop in Canada is selling the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive for CAD$159.99 (US$139) until April 9. The online store is sold out, but it's still available in brick & mortar Future Shop stores.

HD DVDs are also on sale, but Future Shop's HD DVD prices aren't always the greatest in the first place.

jokell82 · Apr 8, 2007, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

By the way, can someone point to a source saying that Apple as a company is supporting both HD-DVD and Blu-ray?

Sure. Is Apple a reliable enough source?

Originally Posted by http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/apr/17hd.html

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

icruise · Apr 8, 2007, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

BTW, you can get 30% off Warner HD DVDs and Blu-ray:

It appears that you get a 20% discount and then a 10% discount off of the remaining total, so it's less than 30% off. But it's still a pretty good deal.

Mrjinglesusa · Apr 8, 2007, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

It appears that you get a 20% discount and then a 10% discount off of the remaining total, so it's less than 30% off. But it's still a pretty good deal.

True, but it's 20% off EACH title and then 10% off the total. That makes $19.95 titles about $14.36 each. Plus, you can pick up Planet Earth boxed set ($79.95) for $57.56 (!).

NOTE: The WBNEWS (20% off) is only for first time orders.

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Given that Bluray and HD-DVD use the exact same codecs, we're much more likely to see the support both. I'd be willing to bet 10.5 will ship with built in support for HD-DVD and Bluray drives.

What is with your obsession with HD-DVD? Were you one of those really early adopters that bought a clunky Toshiba HD-DVD player the size of those old Beta VCRs and pay over a grand for it?

As for codecs, I have yet to see a single VC1 encoded file for Blu-ray. MSFT may have muscled in on the standards to force inclusion of their proprietary format but I've yet to see any content for it on Blu-ray.

I'm staying clear of HD-DVD for the simple fact that it is directly supported by MSFT and it has a much higher probability of being infested by their VC1 codec.

icruise · Apr 8, 2007, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by jokell82

Sure. Is Apple a reliable enough source?

Let me ask you (or whoever) this, then. I have read a number of news articles about "Apple siding with Blu-ray." After looking it it, they mostly seem to be using this press release as a source. Has Apple given any other indication that they are supporting Blu-ray *in preference* to HD-DVD, or was all of this an overreaction to the press release I linked to?

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Let me ask you (or whoever) this, then. I have read a number of news articles about "Apple siding with Blu-ray." After looking it it, they mostly seem to be using this press release as a source. Has Apple given any other indication that they are supporting Blu-ray *in preference* to HD-DVD, or was all of this an overreaction to the press release I linked to?

Well that seems to be pretty clear to me that they are in support of Blu-ray. Now this does not mean that they will not support both formats in their Final Cut Studio suite but I would have to assume that Blu-ray support will come to consumer level iLife when the time is right and there is no indication that they would support HD-DVD unless Blu-ray started losing badly.

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

The HD discs that DVD Studio Pro can burn meet the HD DVD spec. The discs will play back on a standalone HD DVD player, as an HD DVD (not a DVD).

While it's good that Toast 8 supports Blu-ray, Toast is about as crappy as it gets when it comes to authoring movie discs. ie. If I had a Blu-ray drive, I'd use Toast more for Blu-ray data storage than anything.

Eug, it really does not matter if you think their authoring is up to snuff or only but it will most likely be "good enough" for home video enthusiasts until iLife comes out with support for Blu-ray. You might not like their menu themes but it still support while HD-DVD burning and authoring support is non-existant on the mac platform at the consumer level.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 8, 2007, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Well that seems to be pretty clear to me that they are in support of Blu-ray.

Well lets see... Steve jobs said Apple is supporting BR and has never mentioned any official support for HD-DVD so that seems pretty open and shut to me.

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Eug, it really does not matter if you think their authoring is up to snuff or only but it will most likely be "good enough" for home video enthusiasts until iLife comes out with support for Blu-ray. You might not like their menu themes but it still support while HD-DVD burning and authoring support is non-existant on the mac platform at the consumer level.

: sigh :

It's not non existent. You can burn HD-DVD's onto normal DVD's. The only disadvantage of this is you don't get the capacity of an actual HD-DVD disk. But for most content outside of movie content, this is ok.

HD-DVD has more support under DVD Studio Pro than Bluray.

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Well lets see... Steve jobs said Apple is supporting BR and has never mentioned any official support for HD-DVD so that seems pretty open and shut to me.

They did mention official HD-DVD support, it's in the press release above. In addition, I have heard independently that Apple is supporting HD-DVD.

Not to mention DVD Studio Pro supports the HD-DVD format now.

Eug · Apr 8, 2007, 07:04 PM

Jobs has stated he prefers Blu-ray. However, at the same time, Apple is supporting both, and has stated as much in press releases. analogue SPRINKLES, since you missed it:

Originally Posted by Apple

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

I wouldn't be surprised if iLife Leopard get HD burning support. (I wouldn't count on it though.) That said, I'm not convinced it's gonna be Blu-ray only, considering that DVD Player.app already supports HD DVD playback (as long as they use H.264 or MPEG2 and don't have DRM. Another big reason is that HD DVD allows burning to DVD media. This is HUGE for the consumer market.

Apple could advertise iDVD HD using existing SuperDrives. You could get up to about one hour of reasonable quality HD H.264 on a single DVD-R.

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

: sigh :

It's not non existent. You can burn HD-DVD's onto normal DVD's. The only disadvantage of this is you don't get the capacity of an actual HD-DVD disk. But for most content outside of movie content, this is ok.

HD-DVD has more support under DVD Studio Pro than Bluray.

You can do the same thing with a Blu-ray. But you are not getting it at all. DVD Studio is now part of Final Cut Studio which means it it out of reach for general consumers making home movies. You cannot buy DVD Studio separately any longer. Am I being clear enough for you?

If you had actually read what I've written in the thread, you would have seen that I recognized that DVD-Studio has support for creating HD-DVD images for burning on pro equipment but that is not the same thing as having actual burning/authoring support on the consumer level.

Burning the HD-DVD data structures onto DVD+R media is not the same thing as burning an HD-DVD.

@Eug: You simply are either not getting it. There is no HD-DVD burner support from Apple or third-parties for OS X for consumers. You either don't get it or are desperately trying to defend your investment in HD-DVD movies and an HD-DVD player at the expense of looking at the facts.

jokell82 · Apr 8, 2007, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Let me ask you (or whoever) this, then. I have read a number of news articles about "Apple siding with Blu-ray." After looking it it, they mostly seem to be using this press release as a source. Has Apple given any other indication that they are supporting Blu-ray *in preference* to HD-DVD, or was all of this an overreaction to the press release I linked to?

icruise, as you can see from the post I've quoted below, most people are simply assuming that they're going with BluRay with no official word one way or the other. The only thing officially stated by Apple is that they're supporting both formats, and right now only HD-DVDs can be created with Apple's software. To assume they're going BluRay only is pretty ignorant.

Originally Posted by aristotles

Well that seems to be pretty clear to me that they are in support of Blu-ray. Now this does not mean that they will not support both formats in their Final Cut Studio suite but I would have to assume that Blu-ray support will come to consumer level iLife when the time is right and there is no indication that they would support HD-DVD unless Blu-ray started losing badly.

Eug · 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Burning the HD-DVD data structures onto DVD+R media is not the same thing as burning an HD-DVD.

Actually it is. This is an official in-spec HD DVD, and will play back in any HD DVD player, including Apple's own DVD Player.app.

As I said above, this is a big advantage for consumers. Blu-ray burning requires a Blu-ray burner, but a DVD burner is sufficient for recording home-movie HD DVDs.

Also, not only is HD DVD an advantage from the perspective of burning, but also from the perspective of playback. Basically, any Mac with a SuperDrive will be able to burn an HD DVD. Just as importantly (if not more), basically any dual-core or dual processor G5 or Intel Mac will be able to play those discs.

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

You can do the same thing with a Blu-ray.

I'm not so sure that's true. Even if it is true, DVD Studio Pro does not support that.

Originally Posted by aristotles

Burning the HD-DVD data structures onto DVD+R media is not the same thing as burning an HD-DVD.

Actually it is. The reason this works is because HD-DVD is based on the DVD format, so you can still burn HD-DVD onto normal DVD media.

Originally Posted by aristotles

@Eug: You simply are either not getting it. There is no HD-DVD burner support from Apple or third-parties for OS X for consumers. You either don't get it or are desperately trying to defend your investment in HD-DVD movies and an HD-DVD player at the expense of looking at the facts.

And Apple will most likely add HD-DVD burner support in 10.5. It seems pretty obvious considering they allow for the burning of the HD-DVD format right now.

icruise · Apr 8, 2007, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Well lets see... Steve jobs said Apple is supporting BR and has never mentioned any official support for HD-DVD so that seems pretty open and shut to me.

Do you have any source for this aside from the press release I just linked to above? It seems to me that a lot of people (myself included) read news stories proclaiming that Apple had chosen a side, and have used that as the basis for saying that Apple was going to be backing Blu-ray to the exclusion of HD-DVD.

But if you look at the other press release talking about both Blu-ray and HD-DVD (which came out a month after the "Apple joins the Blu-ray group" press release), it's hard to support that conclusion (unless you have a link to something more recent). I do think that the Apple seems a lot more lukewarm with regard to HD-DVD (it sounds a little like they're just trying to parlay their existing membership in the DVD forum into "support" for HD-DVD), but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't be supporting it.

Eug · Apr 8, 2007, 09:35 PM

Jobs has gone on stage to say that they prefer Blu-ray, but actions speak louder than words.

Right now, Apple has official support for HD DVD burning in DVD Studio Pro, and the discs produced by this program meet the DVD Forum's HD DVD spec. Not only can these discs be played in any standalone HD DVD player, basically every new Mac shipped comes with the capability of playing back these discs too.

Personally I think aristotles' statement that iLife will get HD support is probably right. I believe the same thing. However, since HD DVD supports burning onto DVD media, I think that either iDVD HD will support both Blu-ray and HD DVD, or else it will support only HD DVD. Having software with the ability to burn Blu-ray is just about useless for 99% of Mac users, since nobody actually has a Blu-ray burner, or even a Blu-ray reader for that matter. The situation is quite different for HD DVD however, since almost all recent Mac buyers have at least a DVD drive, which is all that is needed for HD DVD burning and playback (at least at the consumer level, for short non-DRM'd movies).

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Jobs has gone on stage to say that they prefer Blu-ray, but actions speak louder than words.

Did he even say that? I just thought he said they'd be support Bluray.

Jobs isn't known to be a big fan of other technology that is used for Bluray, specifically Java.

Eug · 10:58 PM

You could be right. I just remember him going up on stage at Macworld with Sony and promoting Blu-ray.

EDIT:

Engadget

Steve showing off high-def wedding video. "We're anxiously awaiting Blu-ray so we can burn high definition DVDs"

Hmmm.... Not the strongest statement in the world...

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Actually it is. This is an official in-spec HD DVD, and will play back in any HD DVD player, including Apple's own DVD Player.app.

As I said above, this is a big advantage for consumers. Blu-ray burning requires a Blu-ray burner, but a DVD burner is sufficient for recording home-movie HD DVDs.

Also, not only is HD DVD an advantage from the perspective of burning, but also from the perspective of playback. Basically, any Mac with a SuperDrive will be able to burn an HD DVD. Just as importantly (if not more), basically any dual-core or dual processor G5 or Intel Mac will be able to play those discs.

Ok, so going by your logic, a DVD structure burned with a CD Writer to a CD-R is a DVD? Some consumer DVD players are able to playback these strange beasts as well.

Ok, you got me on requiring a blu-ray burner for blueray content but you cannot call a DVD with HD-DVD content an HD-DVD. If you insist on this, then a CD-R with DVD content is a DVD.

aristotles · Apr 8, 2007, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

You could be right. I just remember him going up on stage at Macworld with Sony and promoting Blu-ray.

EDIT:

Engadget

Steve showing off high-def wedding video. "We're anxiously awaiting Blu-ray so we can burn high definition DVDs"

Hmmm.... Not the strongest statement in the world...

Hmmm.... what would you consider a strong statement? If he wanted to be ambiguous, he could have said, "we are awaiting High definition format burners so we can burn high definition discs". The guy used "anxiously awaiting" and "blu-ray" in the same sentence and Apple has released press releases concerning membership in the Blu-ray standards board. How could they be any clearer that they want to support Blu-ray in the consumer market?

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Ok, so going by your logic, a DVD structure burned with a CD Writer to a CD-R is a DVD?

No, this isn't part of the DVD specification.

Originally Posted by aristotles

Ok, you got me on requiring a blu-ray burner for blueray content but you cannot call a DVD with HD-DVD content an HD-DVD. If you insist on this, then a CD-R with DVD content is a DVD.

Yes we can. HD-DVD is done by the DVD forum (i.e. the people who designed DVD), and is backwards compatible with DVD discs. Do you consider Bluray 50 gig discs an entirely different format than Bluray 25 gig discs?

All HD-DVD players also are required to play HD-DVD on 8.5 gig and 4.7 gig discs.

goMac · Apr 8, 2007, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by aristotles

Hmmm.... what would you consider a strong statement? If he wanted to be ambiguous, he could have said, "we are awaiting High definition format burners so we can burn high definition discs". The guy used "anxiously awaiting" and "blu-ray" in the same sentence and Apple has released press releases concerning membership in the Blu-ray standards board. How could they be any clearer that they want to support Blu-ray in the consumer market?

The Sony CEO was standing right there. And in the same press release, Apple announced their commitment to HD-DVD also.