[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Ok, so going by your logic, a DVD structure burned with a CD Writer to a CD-R is a DVD? Some consumer DVD players are able to playback these strange beasts as well.

Ok, you got me on requiring a blu-ray burner for blueray content but you cannot call a DVD with HD-DVD content an HD-DVD. If you insist on this, then a CD-R with DVD content is a DVD.

Incorrect.

HD DVD content burned to DVD media is officially HD DVD. The HD DVD specification was designed with this "3X DVD" disc in mind, specifically to address the issue of cost. All HD DVD players must be able to play these discs, because it is a mandatory part of the HD DVD specification.

In contrast, DVD content burned to CD is not DVD, because it not part of the DVD specification. DVD players do not have to be able to play DVD content burned to CD, and hence, most can't.

---

In other news... It seems the independent European studios prefer HD DVD, according to the Financial Times:

A number of European independent film studios and DVD production companies are opting for Toshiba's HD-DVD format over the rival Sony technology, thanks to a strong support programme by the HD-DVD camp and concerns over the price of Blu-Ray technology.

Early indications from the US are that Sony's Blu-Ray discs are outselling HD-DVDs by as much as two to one. However, in Europe, HD-DVD still appears to have the upper hand.

About 35 European films are available on the HD-DVD format, compared with less than 10 for Blu-Ray. The larger European studios such as Studio Canal and Pathé in France, Filmax and DeAPlaneta in Spain, and Imagion and Nixbu in Germany have all announced plans to use the HD-DVD technology.

Although most commentators agree that the deciding battles in the format war will be fought in Hollywood, analysts such as Richard Cooper at Screen Digest say the importance of European independent studios should not be underestimated. European independent films account for only 30 per cent of the market in the UK, but 50 per cent in France, 40 per cent in Germany and 35 to 40 per cent in Spain.

David Walstra, vice-chairman of the Europe's Blu-Ray Disc Association, admits Sony has concentrated its efforts on the US, and has felt it too early to work with European studios.

The cost of production is also an issue. Normal DVD production lines can be upgraded to produce HD-DVDs, whereas for Blu-Ray, companies need to buy completely new equipment.

"A HD-DVD replication line costs about €800,000 ($1m) and you can make 40,000 discs a day on it. A Blu-Ray replication line costs €1.7m or €1.8m and you can make 10,000 to 15,000 discs a day," says Laurent Villaume, chief executive of Qol, a French DVD replication company. "The risk is just not the same."

[BasketofPuppies]

You know, I thought the PS3, 360 or Wii thread was sad...

This thread is additional proof that nerds get passionate over stupid things. Buy yourselves upconverting DVD players--make sure they scale to the native resolutions of your television sets--and stop arguing over whether HD-DVD or Blu-ray is better and which one is winning.

Because HD-DVD and Blu-ray are short-lived. Reliable, high-quality digital distribution is the future, and it will be mainstream sooner than you think.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

You know, I thought the PS3, 360 or Wii thread was sad...

This thread is additional proof that nerds get passionate over stupid things. Buy yourselves upconverting DVD players--make sure they scale to the native resolutions of your television sets--and stop arguing over whether HD-DVD or Blu-ray is better and which one is winning.

Because HD-DVD and Blu-ray are short-lived. Reliable, high-quality digital distribution is the future, and it will be mainstream sooner than you think.

Upconverting DVD players are not good enough. Anyways, some Blu-ray players and all HD DVD players (so far) upconvert DVDs already.

I don't want to wait 10 years for viable high quality 1080p24 video distribution. I don't even want to wait 5 years. I don't like downloaded content anyway. In this era of iTunes, I still buy CDs.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

Buy yourselves upconverting DVD players--make sure they scale to the native resolutions of your television sets

I have had one for years and it doesn't come anywhere close to the quality of real 720p/1080i.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

A number of European independent film studios and DVD production companies are opting for Toshiba's HD-DVD format over the rival Sony technology, thanks to a strong support programme by the HD-DVD camp and concerns over the price of Blu-Ray technology.

Independent European film studios?! Yikes.

Sony just lost this war

[Eug]

Although most commentators agree that the deciding battles in the format war will be fought in Hollywood, analysts such as Richard Cooper at Screen Digest say the importance of European independent studios should not be underestimated. European independent films account for only 30 per cent of the market in the UK, but 50 per cent in France, 40 per cent in Germany and 35 to 40 per cent in Spain.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

Reliable, high-quality digital distribution is the future, and it will be mainstream sooner than you think.

I HIGHLY doubt that. A hard drive is hardly reliable as optical media. I know I won't be using one as long term storage. Hard copies will always be an option. Even if digital works you still will need a storage medium to burn your own content to, which would have to be a 100% option for that model.

[BasketofPuppies]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Upconverting DVD players are not good enough. Anyways, some Blu-ray players and all HD DVD players (so far) upconvert DVDs already.

I don't want to wait 10 years for viable high quality 1080p24 video distribution. I don't even want to wait 5 years. I don't like downloaded content anyway. In this era of iTunes, I still buy CDs.

I'm aware that HD-DVD and Blu-ray look better than upconverted DVD, and buying an HD-DVD or Blu-ray player is effectively killing two birds with one stone, but buying HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs is short-sighted.

What do you do with your HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs ten years from now when your player breaks?

Your DVDs are safe. The long popularity of the format guarantees you will be able to buy a DVD player decades after DVD-Video becomes irrelevant--my grandmother got a new record player last year--but your high definition discs are coasters, and the content on them has to be re-purchased in pure-digital format, because digital distribution prematurely killed both HD disc formats (and they never caught on beyond AV enthusiasts anyway), making it impossible to find a new HD-DVD or Blu-ray player.

And for those of you who don't think digital distribution will completely replace physical discs, Bill Gates has said that software and media for the next Xbox will be distributed digitally-only. That's gonna kick some things off, assuming there isn't already momentum by then. (Microsoft's endorsement of HD-DVD over Blu-ray is token.)

[Eug]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

I HIGHLY doubt that. A hard drive is hardly reliable as optical media. I know I won't be using one as long term storage. Hard copies will always be an option. Even if digital works you still will need a storage medium to burn your own content to, which would have to be a 100% option for that model.

Indeed, I regularly back up to a secondary hard disc, and back up my important data periodically to DVD.

DVD is especially suited for for archival storage. I simply put my burned DVDs in a disc album and stick it in the cupboard, and then forget about it.

For the really, really important stuff I store another copy of it off-site. (ie. A copy of my work stuff is at home, and a copy of my home stuff is at work.) Not bad for less than $0.50 per disc.

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies

What do you do with your HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs ten years from now when your player breaks?

Buy a new one.

In the meantime I can enjoy them in their full HD glory.

[BasketofPuppies]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Buy a new one.

I wonder how many people said that about their LaserDisc players when DVD started catching on.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

I wonder how many people said that about their LaserDisc players when DVD started catching on.

OMG! People buy new advanced products when new advanced products come out!

Seriously though, laserdisc was problematic right from the start. The discs were HUGE, and still often required you to flip the discs several times during a movie. Not to mention the fact the discs were horrendously expensive.

Both Blu-ray and HD DVD are more successful now in North America than laserdisc ever was, and Blu-ray and HD DVD are in their infancy.

[Dakar²]

I thought BasketofPuppies said only nerds posted in this thread. Yet it's posted several times already...

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The Sony CEO was standing right there. And in the same press release, Apple announced their commitment to HD-DVD also.

Official link with a quote? Concerning support for HD-DVD for consumers. Wasn't this in the context of demoing consumer products and iLife?

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

You know, I thought the PS3, 360 or Wii thread was sad...

This thread is additional proof that nerds get passionate over stupid things. Buy yourselves upconverting DVD players--make sure they scale to the native resolutions of your television sets--and stop arguing over whether HD-DVD or Blu-ray is better and which one is winning.

Because HD-DVD and Blu-ray are short-lived. Reliable, high-quality digital distribution is the future, and it will be mainstream sooner than you think.

Thanks Amazing Kreskin for that prediction about the future. Care to explain now those poor souls in the country to my south (USA) are going to be able to take advantage of this digital distribution without broadband access?

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Although most commentators agree that the deciding battles in the format war will be fought in Hollywood, analysts such as Richard Cooper at Screen Digest say the importance of European independent studios should not be underestimated. European independent films account for only 30 per cent of the market in the UK, but 50 per cent in France, 40 per cent in Germany and 35 to 40 per cent in Spain.

That is awesome for people living in those countries but what relevance is that to people living outside of Europe or even outside of those specific countries? Europe is not one homogeneous cultural entity. Films released in one country will not automatically appeal to audiences in other markets.

Quite frankly, I'm not at all surprised by the numbers for France given that the are quite xenophobic and protective of their "French" culture.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Official link with a quote? Concerning support for HD-DVD for consumers. Wasn't this in the context of demoing consumer products and iLife?

The press release was already linked to on the last page, along with the quote of the press release in question.

The only time Steve Jobs has mentioned Bluray support was when the Sony CEO was on stage and he was talking to the Sony CEO. It was something along the lines of "We're looking forward to Bluray." Eug has the quote on the last page. Aside from that, Steve has never mentioned Bluray.

[BasketofPuppies]

BasketofPuppies wrote that only nerds get passionate stupid things, like taking the side of one inanimate object over another inanimate object. BasketofPuppies takes no side in the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray debate.

Back on topic, my point is that if your LaserDisc player breaks, everything you own in LaserDisc format needs to be re-purchased in a different format, because you can't buy a new LaserDisc player today--maybe you could import a new LaserDisc player from Japan, but that would also be expensive.

Compare this to VHS. Yes, the format is almost dead, but the massive popularity it once had means you can still buy a VCR today, so if your VCR breaks you aren't forced to re-purchase your VHS tapes on DVD. (You might want to, so you don't have to deal with the hassles and lower quality of tape and an extra box in your entertainment center, but you don't have to.)

DVD will be like VHS in this way. Long after the format is dead you will still be able to buy a DVD player and view your DVDs.

As for HD-DVD and Blu-ray, we don't know, but my guess is that, like LaserDisc, they'll be popular only among AV enthusiasts and die as soon as the next format (digital distribution) becomes viable, so you'll have trouble finding a new HD-DVD or Blu-ray player when your current one breaks, and will be forced to buy it all again.

And even if I am wrong, surely only one HD disc format will survive, so if you choose the wrong one you're gonna have to buy it all again in the other format.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Thanks Amazing Kreskin for that prediction about the future. Care to explain now those poor souls in the country to my south (USA) are going to be able to take advantage of this digital distribution without broadband access?

Broadband access is pretty common. I doubt people without broadband access would be buying something like Bluray or HD-DVD anyway.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

BasketofPuppies wrote that only nerds get passionate stupid things, like taking the side of one inanimate object over another inanimate object. BasketofPuppies takes no side in the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray debate.

Actually, you seem to be taking the side against both of them.

Sorry, but posting in this thread 5 times today does not convey indifference.

[BasketofPuppies]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Thanks Amazing Kreskin for that prediction about the future. Care to explain now those poor souls in the country to my south (USA) are going to be able to take advantage of this digital distribution without broadband access?

The telephone and cable companies are in the early process of switching everyone from cable television to IPTV. That's gonna require a whole lot more bandwidth than they offer now, so they're gonna have to give everyone a whole lot more bandwidth than they offer now.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Seriously though, laserdisc was problematic right from the start. The discs were HUGE, and still often required you to flip the discs several times during a movie. Not to mention the fact the discs were horrendously expensive.

Well, really that only applied to CAV format discs. You could only get 30 minutes per side on those, so you had to change several times, and it meant that there were more discs per movie, which increased the price. (The trade-off was that you were able to completely control the playback, using slow motion, pause, reverse, etc -- that wasn't possible for CLV discs except on high-end players.) CLV discs were more reasonable in price, and usually only made you turn the disc over once (and the better players did it automatically).

Both Blu-ray and HD DVD are more successful now in North America than laserdisc ever was, and Blu-ray and HD DVD are in their infancy.

By what metric? As of 1996 (the best figures I could come up with after a short search) laserdisc had over 9,000 titles available (in North America alone) and an installed base of 3 million players worldwide. I don't think either HD format can claim that, although Blu-ray probably has a similar number of players if you count the PS3.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

LD's were super expensive. I remember movies being $80 average.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

Back on topic, my point is that if your LaserDisc player breaks, everything you own in LaserDisc format needs to be re-purchased in a different format, because you can't buy a new LaserDisc player today--maybe you could import a new LaserDisc player from Japan, but that would also be expensive.

Actually, there is at least one model of laserdisc player (actually a laserdisc/DVD combo player) that is still available. You can even get it from Amazon (through OneCall). But even if the players aren't available new, there are going to be used ones available for many years after a format officially dies.

I'm not a fan of laserdisc anymore, but back when video tapes were king, the laserdisc was the best option available for people who really cared about movies. They usually provided you with the original aspect ratio, pioneered the first special features (something we take for granted on DVDs now), and had greatly superior audio and video quality. I sold all of mine back when DVD came out, because it was obvious that DVD was superior.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

LD's were super expensive. I remember movies being $80 average.

No. While I did pay $80-$100 for super-deluxe CAV versions of some films (like the Criterion Edition of Bladerunner) most were in the $30-$40 range.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The press release was already linked to on the last page, along with the quote of the press release in question.

The only time Steve Jobs has mentioned Bluray support was when the Sony CEO was on stage and he was talking to the Sony CEO. It was something along the lines of "We're looking forward to Bluray." Eug has the quote on the last page. Aside from that, Steve has never mentioned Bluray.

Do you mean the press release announcing Apple joining the Blu-ray Disc Association board?
Blu-ray Disc Association Welcomes Apple to Its Board of Directors

“Apple is pleased to join the Blu-ray Disc Association board as part of our efforts to drive consumer adoption of HD,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs.”

“Apple has a long history of technical innovation around DVD hardware and software, and their support of the Blu-ray Disc format is a testament to their commitment of ongoing innovation. The Blu-ray Disc format provides the immense capacity and the revolutionary functionality that Apple’s loyal customer base will be sure to enjoy,” said Maureen Weber, chief BDA spokesperson and general manager of HP's Optical Storage Solutions Business. “We’re thrilled about Apple joining our 16-member board, and we look forward to working with them on the development and promotion of the Blu-ray Disc format.”

The BDA was created to broaden support for Blu-ray Disc—the next generation

Where does in mention HD-DVD specifically? Are you referring to this phrase "Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs." from Steve Jobs? Did you notice that it was in context of consumers using iMovie and not Apple DVD Studio and that it immediately followed their announcement of joining the Blu-ray group? Within this context, I believe "high definition DVDs" was referring to Blu-ray which Apple seems to see as the successor to DVD.

What clearer sign do you people want that Apple in committed to bringing out Blu-ray authoring to consumers in the iLife package as soon as it is feasible?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Well, really that only applied to CAV format discs. You could only get 30 minutes per side on those, so you had to change several times, and it meant that there were more discs per movie, which increased the price. (The trade-off was that you were able to completely control the playback, using slow motion, pause, reverse, etc -- that wasn't possible for CLV discs except on high-end players.) CLV discs were more reasonable in price, and usually only made you turn the disc over once (and the better players did it automatically).

Right. The "best" discs were the most problematic. And they often were over CAD$100.

I specifically avoided buying laserdisc because I thought it was destined to fail in North America, and because it was expensive and a PITA.

By what metric? As of 1996 (the best figures I could come up with after a short search) laserdisc had over 9,000 titles available (in North America alone) and an installed base of 3 million players worldwide. I don't think either HD format can claim that, although Blu-ray probably has a similar number of players if you count the PS3.

Exactly, adoption rate. Going by SPRINKLES' often quoted PS3, in its first year, Blu-ray is more popular than laserdisc throughout much of its lifetime. However, we all know the PS3 isn't the best example.

If you go by Paramount's assessment, there will be 1.7 million HD DVD players and 1.7 million Blu-ray players by the end of 2007. That's well over 3 million total in one and half years. (Paramount only counts 22% of PS3s and Blu-ray players, because the movie attachment rate is so low for PS3s. They feel it takes about 5 PS3s to equal one standalone or Xbox 360 HD DVD drive in terms of disc sales.)

For the last two months, twice as many Blu-ray discs have sold as HD DVD discs, noted conference speaker Vito Mandato, an executive consultant to Paramount Home Entertainment. But he does not see that as a sign that the end of the format war is imminent.

“Some studio chiefs have claimed to have won, but quite honestly the war continues,” said Mandato, who led his speech with the disclaimer that his views may not represent the views of Paramount.

Mandato predicts the number of hardware units in homes by the end of 2007 will be at 1.7 million for each format. On the HD DVD side, that includes 1.2 million stand-alone players and 500,000 Xbox 360 add-on drives. For BD, Mandato is counting only 22%, or 1.2 million, of the 5.5 million PS3 units projected to be sold during the year, plus 500,000 stand-alone players, because his analysis suggests that just 22% of PS3 households purchase movies regularly.

---

aristotle, you keep missing stuff that was already posted:

Apple Continues to Lead the Industry in the Adoption of HD Video at NAB

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

P.S. That Apple press release was issued after the press release you posted.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Do you mean the press release announcing Apple joining the Blu-ray Disc Association board?
Blu-ray Disc Association Welcomes Apple to Its Board of Directors


Where does in mention HD-DVD specifically? Are you referring to this phrase "Consumers are already creating stunning HD content with Apple’s leading video editing applications like iMovie HD and are anxiously awaiting a way to burn their own high def DVDs." from Steve Jobs? Did you notice that it was in context of consumers using iMovie and not Apple DVD Studio and that it immediately followed their announcement of joining the Blu-ray group? Within this context, "high definition DVDs" was referring to Blu-ray which Apple sees as the successor to DVD.

I really thought we put this to bed already.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/apr/17hd.html

"Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association."

And also DVD Studio Pro also already supports burning of HD-DVD onto DVD media, which is a valid HD-DVD format (as I've already said).

Originally Posted by aristotles 

What clearer sign do you people want that Apple in committed to bringing out Blu-ray authoring to consumers in the iLife package as soon as it is feasible?

It's been feasible for a while. Maybe you should explain why Apple hasn't added Bluray to Macs yet.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by BasketofPuppies 

...my guess is that, like LaserDisc, they'll be popular only among AV enthusiasts and die as soon as the next format (digital distribution) becomes viable, so you'll have trouble finding a new HD-DVD or Blu-ray player when your current one breaks, and will be forced to buy it all again.

The great thing about digital media though, is even if the players conk out, you can always just rip the films to the PC.

[jokell82]

I love how aristotles completely ignores the posts I made about Apple and HD-DVD.

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...8/#post3348258

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Brien 

The great thing about digital media though, is even if the players conk out, you can always just rip the films to the PC.

Not so easily with HD DVD or Blu-ray. AACS on those formats was designed specifically to get around the problems with CSS on DVD. Once CSS was broken, it was broken. Once AACS is broken, it's only for some discs, and it can be updated.

Mandatory Managed Copy is not implemented yet either.

Originally Posted by goMac 

It's been feasible for a while. Maybe you should explain why Apple hasn't added Bluray to Macs yet.

I was rather surprised that the new Mac Pros didn't get the option for a Blu-ray burner. I thought they would.

I think it's safe to guess that iDVD in 2007 will get HD burning support. Which format we don't know yet, but we shall see. As I've suggested earlier, a good possibility is HD DVD on DVD media, because it's a natural progression with current hardware.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Not so easily with HD DVD or Blu-ray. AACS on those formats was designed specifically to get around the problems with CSS on DVD. Once CSS was broken, it was broken. Once AACS is broken, it's only for some discs, and it can be updated.

Well, there is managed copy, but it seems to be stalled by legal issues:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/04/08...y-on-hd-flick/

[exca1ibur]

I'm surprised they never added BD-9 which will basically the same as the 3x HD-DVD spec. This would allow content users to do small HD projects that would play on both players.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I really thought we put this to bed already.

Apple Continues to Lead the Industry in the Adoption of HD Video at NAB

"Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association."

And also DVD Studio Pro also already supports burning of HD-DVD onto DVD media, which is a valid HD-DVD format (as I've already said).

It's been feasible for a while. Maybe you should explain why Apple hasn't added Bluray to Macs yet.

Maybe, you are not aware but DVD Studio Pro is not a consumer product and it is not available separately anymore. I could have sworn that I mentioned that it cost over 1400 USD to by the complete FCP Studio package in the thread earlier.

Nowhere in that particular press release did they mention "burning", "consumers" or "home video".

Of course, they are going to support both in their "pro" apps like FCP Studio.

It's as if everyone is talking at each other here instead of listening to what each other have to say. I have fully acknowledged that FCP does and will continue to support HD-DVD projects and that Blue-ray support will arrive with the updates but I have also been talking about consumer level software which you have convieniently chosen to ignore. Toast Titanium 8 is available right now and it supports Blu-ray authoring and burning of HD videos to BR-R disks.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I love how aristotles completely ignores the posts I made about Apple and HD-DVD.

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...8/#post3348258

No, see my post above. Your link talks about pro-level stuff. I'm talking about Toast and iLife. In other words, I'm talking about consumer products.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

I'm surprised they never added BD-9 which will basically the same as the 3x HD-DVD spec. This would allow content users to do small HD projects that would play on both players.

Hmmm... I may be mistaken on BD-9. It's not clearly spelled out, but it seems BD-9 may in fact be part of the official BD spec. I see articles suggesting that part of the delay in the Blu-ray recorder launch is the lack of standardization of BD-9, but it may have made it into the spec at the last minute (after it was accepted into HD DVD).

If that's the case, BD-9 is a distinct possibility for iDVD (as is HD-9).

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Maybe, you are not aware but DVD Studio Pro is not a consumer product and it is not available separately anymore. I could have sworn that I mentioned that it cost over 1400 USD to by the complete FCP Studio package in the thread earlier.

You really think they're not going to support HD-DVD burning in iDVD when they're already written the code to implement it?

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Nowhere in that particular press release did they mention "burning", "consumers" or "home video".

Nor did they single out professionals.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Of course, they are going to support both in their "pro" apps like FCP Studio.

It's as if everyone is talking at each other here instead of listening to what each other have to say. I have fully acknowledged that FCP does and will continue to support HD-DVD projects and that Blue-ray support will arrive with the updates but I have also been talking about consumer level software which you have convieniently chosen to ignore. Toast Titanium 8 is available right now and it supports Blu-ray authoring and burning of HD videos to BR-R disks.

Why are you so desperately arguing that Apple is going to give Bluray an edge? Apple has said they will support both formats equally. With no qualifications. I don't know why you don't understand that.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hmmm... I may be mistaken on BD-9. It's not clearly spelled out, but it seems BD-9 may in fact be part of the official BD spec. I see articles suggesting that part of the delay in the Blu-ray recorder launch is the lack of standardization of BD-9, but it may have made it into the spec at the last minute (after it was accepted into HD DVD).

If that's the case, BD-9 is a distinct possibility for iDVD (as is HD-9).

Confirmed by the Blu-ray dudes. BD on DVD, aka BD-9, is an official format. Any Blu-ray player (including the PS3) should be able to play it. So, I give aristotle that, that Blu-ray is a definite possibility for iDVD '07.

So given Apple's HD DVD support now, will they add Blu-ray support alone, HD DVD support alone, or both formats? We'll see. I'd like to see both as goMac might suggest, to keep both me and SPRINKLES happy.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Apple has said they will support both formats equally. With no qualifications. I don't know why you don't understand that.

Are you basing your position entirely on this sentence in the press release?

Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards—Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD.

If so, I don't think you can really say that "Apple has said they will support both formats equally. With no qualifications." In fact, it sounds like they're just trying to be noncommittal. So while I think you can make the case that the "Apple has sided with Blu-ray" news was inaccurate, it's also inaccurate to claim that Apple is going to be format agnostic. At this point, I would just say that we don't really know what they're going to do.

[hmurchison2001]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm I don't think

it's also inaccurate to claim that Apple is going to be format agnostic

quite passes the logic test. If a person says "Apple supports Blu-ray" then that is correct. If a person states "Apple 'only' supports Blu-ray" then that is incorrect. If someone says Apple supports both platforms and Apple's own statements corroborate this then I cannot perceive this as incorrect.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

At this point, I would just say that we don't really know what they're going to do.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Ironically, until last week, I might have agreed that Apple was leaning towards Blu-ray (despite their inclusion of HD DVD support in DVD Studio Pro and DVD Player.app). However, that changed when Apple failed to add a Blu-ray option for the new Mac Pros, even though the burners are already available, and Toast 8 already supports them.

In the end though I'm not sure Apple really cares. What Apple really cares about is H.264.

OTOH, Jobs does care somewhat methinks. Disney is Blu-ray exclusive, so he himself may favour Blu-ray.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm I don't think

quite passes the logic test. If a person says "Apple supports Blu-ray" then that is correct. If a person states "Apple 'only' supports Blu-ray" then that is incorrect. If someone says Apple supports both platforms and Apple's own statements corroborate this then I cannot perceive this as incorrect.

Would you mind not starting all of your posts with "Ummmmmmm"? It comes off as very condescending.

All I am saying is that I don't think you can say with ANY authority what Apple will be doing. We're picking apart one sentence from a press release that came out two years ago, for crying out loud!

Will they support both? Possibly. Will they only support Blu-ray. Possible. Will they only support HD-DVD? Somewhat less probable, but possible if Blu-ray suddenly tanks for some reason.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

You really think they're not going to support HD-DVD burning in iDVD when they're already written the code to implement it?

Nor did they single out professionals.

Why are you so desperately arguing that Apple is going to give Bluray an edge? Apple has said they will support both formats equally. With no qualifications. I don't know why you don't understand that.

Really? How do I author an HD-DVD image in iDVD? Are you confusing DVD Studio Pro (which does support it) with iLife? There is a huge price differential between the two.

They are singling out professionals given that they are talking about their FCP Studio product which is out of reach and overkill for 99.99% of consumers. Nowwhere did they mention iLife.

Why are you arguing so desperately that they already support consumer level HD-DVD authoring in iLife when there is no evidence of it? It is true that you can read in an iMovie HD project into DVD Studio Pro but you still have to buy the entire FCP studio to do that.

Apple - iLife - iDVD - Widescreen DVDs

You can even include content from both SD and HD video sources. iDVD converts HDV content to pristine-quality standard DVD format, so everything plays back beautifully — on any DVD player and widescreen TV, too.

It supports Widescreen and HD sources but not HD authoring or burning.

[jokell82]

Where are you reading that he said there was support for HD-DVD in iLife? Because I don't see that anywhere in his posts.

What he *DID* say was that they already have the code written to support HD-DVD in the pro software, so it'd be trivial and pointless NOT to add it to the consumer software.

Yet again you are reading what you want to read instead of what is actually written.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I think for right now it is fair to say that Apple is supporting neither formate as they don't offer HD-DVD or BR drives, System level burning support or playback.

Yes some apps allow authoring to HD-DVD and Steve said BR support and Apple is on the BR board but none of it really matters until they start offering what is mentioned in my first paragraph.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Why are you arguing so desperately that they already support consumer level HD-DVD authoring in iLife when there is no evidence of it? It is true that you can read in an iMovie HD project into DVD Studio Pro but you still have to buy the entire FCP studio to do that.

Apple doesn't support Bluray burning at all. Not a bit. I'm not sure why you think this gives them a pre-disposition to go Bluray only.

As Eug has said, the best route is for them to use HD-DVD on normal DVD's. That way everyone with a DVD burner could burn HD content. And from the sounds of it, these disks could be made to work with Bluray drives as well. Everyone wins.

From there Apple would have to be brain dead not to allow HD-DVD burning, considering the compression and format of an HD-DVD on a normal DVD is exactly the same as it is on a normal HD-DVD. Apple would even use the same burning code.

I don't understand why you keep saying Apple prefers Bluray. Apple has never said that they prefer Bluray. Apple has never said what their plans are for supporting consumer HD burning. Yes, Apple is not on the board of directors for the DVD Forum (the group promoting HD-DVD). But do you know how huge the DVD Forum is? Even Sony is a member of the DVD forum, even though they don't support HD-DVD. (Sony is actually even a member of the steering committee for the DVD forum).

http://www.dvdforum.org/about-memberlist.htm

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

From there Apple would have to be brain dead not to allow HD-DVD burning, considering the compression and format of an HD-DVD on a normal DVD is exactly the same as it is on a normal HD-DVD. Apple would even use the same burning code.[/url]

Remember Apple support early on with DVD+R's and DVD-RAM?

They even disabled it on drives that normally supported it.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Where are you reading that he said there was support for HD-DVD in iLife? Because I don't see that anywhere in his posts.

What he *DID* say was that they already have the code written to support HD-DVD in the pro software, so it'd be trivial and pointless NOT to add it to the consumer software.

Yet again you are reading what you want to read instead of what is actually written.

Where are you reading that I've denied any of that? Read through the bloody thread before jumping in and throwing out accusations pal.

He seems to be ignoring the consumer market all together and focusing on what FCP Studio is capable of even though I have never denied that DVD Studio Pro could author HD-DVD. Ultimately though, pro-level apps and support will not be a significant driver for either format. What will be a significant driver is consumer level support in iLife. The first format to receive Apple support directly in iLife will be the ultimate winner of the war as windows development houses will quickly follow suite with work-alikes for windows.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Honestly the high end pro market doesn't make much of a difference in a war like this.
Remember DAT tapes? Studio's used them for years and years but consumers hardly touched them.
They even stuck with Beta tapes for ages after it lost in the home wars.

Even MiniDisc which was HUGE in Japan didn't make much of an impact in the west at all.

In this case the only real thing that is going to matter is availability of movies which unless things majority change HD-DVD will always have a major disadvantage.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Apple doesn't support Bluray burning at all. Not a bit. I'm not sure why you think this gives them a pre-disposition to go Bluray only.

Apple does not support HD-DVD burning at all or HD-DVD authoring in iLife for consumers so what is your point. I don't think they will go blu-ray only in the pro apps but it seems likely that they will go for blu-ray for consumers. There are no HD-DVD burners even from third-parties for the mac. There are blu-ray burners from third-parties and Toast Titanium 8 provides OS integration of Blu-ray into OS X.

Originally Posted by goMac 

From there Apple would have to be brain dead not to allow HD-DVD burning, considering the compression and format of an HD-DVD on a normal DVD is exactly the same as it is on a normal HD-DVD. Apple would even use the same burning code.

I am no expert on this but I believe that you are oversimplifying things. Authoring an HD-DVD structure is one thing while burning is another matter.

Originally Posted by goMac 

I don't understand why you keep saying Apple prefers Bluray. Apple has never said that they prefer Bluray. Apple has never said what their plans are for supporting consumer HD burning. Yes, Apple is not on the board of directors for the DVD Forum (the group promoting HD-DVD). But do you know how huge the DVD Forum is? Even Sony is a member of the DVD forum, even though they don't support HD-DVD. (Sony is actually even a member of the steering committee for the DVD forum).

Member List

Apple is a member of the DVD forum but they are not a supporting member of the HD-DVD standard. Look it up on google. MSFT is there but Apple is not.

Apple has never said they prefer Blu-ray? Really? Why would they go through the trouble of becoming part of the board and not becoming part of the group directly responsible for HD-DVD. As you pointed out, the DVD-forum is a large organization with a number of projects. Apple has not come out publicly in support for the HD-DVD standard. They have however, said they will support both in their pro level apps. There is a difference between providing software support and coming out in "support" for a format.

Blu-ray Disc Association Welcomes Apple to Its Board of Directors

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I think for right now it is fair to say that Apple is supporting neither formate as they don't offer HD-DVD or BR drives, System level burning support or playback.

They allow playback already with some HD DVDs. It's built into DVD Player.app already.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Remember Apple support early on with DVD+R's and DVD-RAM?

They even disabled it on drives that normally supported it.

Actually, to be picky. They supported DVD-RAM first. Then they supported DVD-R (and disabled DVD-RAM). They they supported DVD+R and DVD-R.

Stupid.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Authoring an HD-DVD structure is one thing while burning is another matter.

? Burning a HD DVD is easy. The hard part is authoring the HD DVD structure.

Apple is a member of the DVD forum but they are not a supporting member of the HD-DVD standard. Look it up on google. MSFT is there but Apple is not.

That doesn't really make sense as their software already supports HD DVD.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I don't understand why you keep saying Apple prefers Bluray. Apple has never said that they prefer Bluray. Apple has never said what their plans are for supporting consumer HD burning. Yes, Apple is not on the board of directors for the DVD Forum (the group promoting HD-DVD). But do you know how huge the DVD Forum is? Even Sony is a member of the DVD forum, even though they don't support HD-DVD. (Sony is actually even a member of the steering committee for the DVD forum).

http://www.dvdforum.org/about-memberlist.htm

How does that support what you are saying? You're essentially admitting that belonging to the DVD forum means nothing. Given that Apple is a member of the Blu-ray board, is certainly does sound like they prefer it.