[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why is it that you guys go ga ga over BeOS, but are so dismissive of something like this?

Who goes gaga over BeOS TODAY ?

5 years ago, yes, ok. That was before OS X. But today ? BeOS is dead.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yes, BeOS was a step forward in some OS aspects.

The new Amiga OS today is a step back at most.

-t

Have you used it? How do you know this for certain? Surely you are basing this on more than a couple of screenshots and a feature listing?


If this project does nothing more than run extremely efficiently on older hardware, it will be a success.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There are all sorts of now successful projects that began as crappy projects, what's your point?

Really ? Just name ONE project that was developed on a 15 year old OS / hardware plattform that is SUCCESSFUL today ?

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Who goes gaga over BeOS TODAY ?

5 years ago, yes, ok. That was before OS X. But today ? BeOS is dead.

-t

Developers don't necessarily think like business people and latch onto projects that are surefire commercial successes, that's not at all what I'm arguing.

However, there are people that still respect a lot of what BeOS did, even by today's standards. I'm sure you've heard some raves about the BeFS, for instance.

We can still learn a lot from successful projects even 5 years old.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If this project does nothing more than run extremely efficiently on older hardware, it will be a success.

Successful by what standards ?

A geek getting a hardon ?

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Really ? Just name ONE project that was developed on a 15 year old OS / hardware plattform that is SUCCESSFUL today ?

-t

OS X, Linux, Solaris, the BSDs...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Successful by what standards ?

A geek getting a hardon ?

-t

Successful in being a model for others to copy... Successful for being a proof of concept. The Amiga, BeOS, OS/2, NeXT, Commodore 64, and OS X today have all been successes in some way.

[besson3c]

Just a page back wasn't there people going on about Amiga users being zealots? Why are you guys being so critical of this project? Really... I hope it thrives, and can't fathom any logical reason why anybody here should wish its demise.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

OS X, Linux, Solaris, the BSDs...

BS. OS X doesn't run on a 15 year old HW platform.

Unix/Linux yes, maybe to some extent. But that is again only for geeks. Look at the average HW requirements today and 15 years ago. That's nothing you could compete in the marketplace with. You still need to adapt those Unix / Linux flavors to today's HW as well, in order to make sense for most users.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Just a page back wasn't there people going on about Amiga users being zealots? Why are you guys being so critical of this project? Really... I hope it thrives, and can't fathom any logical reason why anybody here should wish its demise.

Well, you are right, I don't know why I get so emotional about it.

I really shouldn't give a wet fart about Amiga. Thanks for bringing it in perspective.

-t

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's about as useful as BeOS was, which is to say pretty useless for end users, but it turned heads and made waves in the industry nonetheless.

At the time there was lots about BeOS that was ahead of its time. I used it and loved it but the problem is I couldn't do anything with it except appreciate it on a geek level as there were no apps for it.

Even after Be was bought pretty much none of it was used for anything and we are still waiting for the new Palm OS. Sadly they sold the OS, are currently using the old palm OS and Windows CE and plan on Linux for the future.

Point is back then on low levels the BeOS rocked but it also was missing TONS of stuff that computers had at the time and was necessary like printing and power management.

This Amega looks dated even by year 2000 standards. Totally pointless.

They should just sell off some of their technology and call it quits.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

BS. OS X doesn't run on a 15 year old HW platform.

Sure it could, you would just have to remove Aqua. There is no reason why the Darwin core couldn't run on 15 year old hardware.

I'm not sure where the 15 year thing is even significant though. If the Amiga will run well on 15 year old hardware, great, if it won't, it won't. We have seen evidence several times in the history of this industry how well highly optimized code can run, so it wouldn't surprise me if the new Amiga OS ran just fine on 15 year old hardware. If it does, how much you are willing to pay for the hardware is subjective.

Unix/Linux yes, maybe to some extent. But that is again only for geeks. Look at the average HW requirements today and 15 years ago. That's nothing you could compete in the marketplace with. You still need to adapt those Unix / Linux flavors to today's HW as well, in order to make sense for most users.

I think only geeks worry about having the latest hardware. Most people are just concerned with what the machine will do, assigning a value to these benefits, and weighing the cost:benefit ratio.

There are a lot of Linux users looking at clustering, and restoring a lot of value to older hardware. Older hardware is not useless, that is only what the computer vendors want you to believe. Linux is highly relevant to today's society, there are a lot of embedded devices and other appliances based on Linux, many equipped with only modest hardware.

However, like I said, if this project only amounts to be a proof-of-concept of what highly optimized code will do, we all win.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Well, you are right, I don't know why I get so emotional about it.

I really shouldn't give a wet fart about Amiga. Thanks for bringing it in perspective.

-t

Then don't.... All I'm saying is that the project isn't worthless to everybody, and I pointed to developers as a possible example of this, and how we can ultimately indirectly benefit from developers perfecting code optimization.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

At the time there was lots about BeOS that was ahead of its time. I used it and loved it but the problem is I couldn't do anything with it except appreciate it on a geek level as there were no apps for it.

Even after Be was bought pretty much none of it was used for anything and we are still waiting for the new Palm OS. Sadly they sold the OS, are currently using the old palm OS and Windows CE and plan on Linux for the future.

Point is back then on low levels the BeOS rocked but it also was missing TONS of stuff that computers had at the time and was necessary like printing and power management.

This Amega looks dated even by year 2000 standards. Totally pointless.

They should just sell off some of their technology and call it quits.

If they do perfect a part of the OS and sell off this technology, we all win. The goals of this project may not be to create a complete system on par with OS X or Windows, in fact I bet these aren't their goals at all, this makes no sense from a business perspective.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

BS. OS X doesn't run on a 15 year old HW platform.

Intel's x86 architecture is way older than 15 years. And OS X was originally developed for the now-defunct NeXT cubes!

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Unix/Linux yes, maybe to some extent. But that is again only for geeks.

Let's not forget Windows.

[besson3c]

In case you can't tell from my writing, I'm really empathetic to the Amiga philosophy. There is no reason why we need screaming fast hardware to have a completely satisfying computing experience. It has been proven time and time again what code optimization can do. In many ways, I bet some of the Amigas were faster or on par with OS X 10.0 at some things.

If I'm speaking in hyperbole, so be it, but I remain convinced that a lot of modern code is not very well optimized (this doesn't sell new computers or speed up the development of new features). We can learn a lot from what these developers did on lacking hardware back in their day.

Think about it, we were typing bloody papers and essays on Commodore 64s without the cursor lagging, but in modern computers running Word this is the case? Truly pathetic. It really is about selling computers and pushing new features out the door as quickly as possible so that the vendors can make as much money as possible.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

In case you can't tell from my writing, I'm really empathetic to the Amiga philosophy. There is no reason why we need screaming fast hardware to have a completely satisfying computing experience.

I agree 100%. I think OSes are too bloated now (OS X included.) Vista is the prime example of packing in so much crap under the assumption that it'll be acceptable in a few years because computers are getting so much faster with a ton of more RAM.

Then I wonder, can you imagine how fast your computing experience would be if you had System 7 on a computer with eight processor cores and 16GBs of RAM?! Assuming it supported those features... holy cow!

I guess that's why I still have old Macs and Apple ][s running around my apartment. I'm a sucker for the simple, efficient, and attractive computing experiences and I'm constantly running back to them to get my fill.

Props to the Amiga community for keeping to this philosophy, and props to them for keeping it alive (even if it's on life support.) I'm sure that if I was a little older when I was a kid and wasn't dirt broke, I'd 've been an avid Amiga fan as well as a Mac fan.

[Eug]

I'd rather have a cursor lagging in Word running under emulation, then not being able to do anything useful at all on a $1000 Amiga.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The goals of this project may not be to create a complete system on par with OS X or Windows, in fact I bet these aren't their goals at all

What is there goals exactly?

Or really the point at all? Is it a tech demo with a price tag and nostalgia?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Then I wonder, can you imagine how fast your computing experience would be if you had System 7 on a computer with eight processor cores and 16GBs of RAM?! Assuming it supported those features... holy cow!

Imagine how much work it would be to make System 7 run on eight processor cores and 16 GB of RAM. I'm not saying that there isn't some bloat in modern computers, but we are asking a lot more of them than we used to, so it's only natural that they're more complex as well.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd rather have a cursor lagging in Word running under emulation, then not being able to do anything useful at all on a $1000 Amiga.

Bingo

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I'd rather have a cursor lagging in Word running under emulation, then not being able to do anything useful at all on a $1000 Amiga.

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is probably no surprise to the Amiga community, as I"m sure you are not their target audience.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is probably no surprise to the Amiga community, as I"m sure you are not their target audience.

Bingo, which is why we are confused you are trying to sell it to us.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

What is there goals exactly?

Or really the point at all? Is it a tech demo with a price tag and nostalgia?

You have to separate the question into what the point is as a business venture, and what the point is as a project.

As a business venture, I have no clue... I have not touched this at all yet in anything I've written. I would assume that if they could simply recoup some costs, they would be pretty happy.

I'm not privy to the goals of the project either, but if I had to make an assumption it would be to demonstrate what can be done, to push some technologies to eventually become integrated into mainstream computing, and to give these developers some exposure via this project. I'm sure that the lead developers of this project should have little difficulty finding work that will pay their bills, assuming they are good at what they do.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is probably no surprise to the Amiga community, as I"m sure you are not their target audience.

That's what everyone wants to know. Who is it for and what is so great about it? Especially since it isn't cheap.

Is it open source?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Bingo, which is why we are confused you are trying to sell it to us.

Just trying to offer you a different perspective. You guys are looking at this from a very consumer/end-user perspective.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

That's what everyone wants to know. Who is it for and what is so great about it? Especially since it isn't cheap.

Is it open source?

I can only speculate based on what I've come to know about the Amiga philosophy of the past. Like Olpigeon and myself have said, it definitely is a valid one.


Why do film directors make risky and artsy films rather than just making low cost Adam Sandler films that will make them money? You're a creative person, aren't you?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You guys are looking at this from a very consumer/end-user perspective.

Sorry, but that's what 98% of Mac users do. Me included.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Imagine how much work it would be to make System 7 run on eight processor cores and 16 GB of RAM. I'm not saying that there isn't some bloat in modern computers, but we are asking a lot more of them than we used to, so it's only natural that they're more complex as well.

Yes, they definitely are. However, if the end result is a lagging cursor, the user probably doesn't care about how complex everything is, they just know that their new computer shouldn't be doing this.


I really do believe in how the industry has come to reward lazy optimization. THere is a lot of money to be had in pushing new features and selling new hardware. Why is it that the Finder is slow and sucky after all of these years? It's because optimizing the hell out of it probably isn't very profitable for Apple nor does it advance their broader goals.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I can only speculate based on what I've come to know about the Amiga philosophy of the past. Like Olpigeon and myself have said, it definitely is a valid one.


Why do film directors make risky and artsy films rather than just making low cost Adam Sandler films that will make them money? You're a creative person, aren't you?

Except, that this project makes an previous gen-level OS that doesn't do anything run on old hardware. It's hardly exciting. It doesn't even look nice.

I can understand how someone might want to do it for themselves just for the hell of it, but your push to make it sound good to the rest of us won't be very successful.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Sorry, but that's what 98% of Mac users do. Me included.

-t

Don't agree at all... Mac and Unix users have been idealistic and a bit religious for decades. Wasn't there somebody in here that was going to abandon the Mac once it moved to Intel chips? How many years did we put up with a crappy OS pre-OS X running on expensive hardware when there was little logical reason to do so?

Face it, we aren't always the most logical of users, but that's okay.


Unix/Linux users, same thing, and there is a pretty significant population of Unix geeks running OS X. For years pragmatism has taken a back seat to core beliefs and ideology, just like us.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Except, that this project makes an previous gen-level OS that doesn't do anything run on old hardware. It's hardly exciting. It doesn't even look nice.

I can understand how someone might want to do it for themselves just for the hell of it, but your push to make it sound good to the rest of us won't be very successful.

What did BeOS do?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What did BeOS do?

The same thing, plus more (BeFS), and still nobody cared.

Apple almost cared, but that's because they were desperate, and then Jobs showed them the light.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The same thing, plus more (BeFS), and still nobody cared.

But it made big waves and changed a lot of things among industry insiders.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

But it made big waves and changed a lot of things among industry insiders.

Big waves? Well if want to call it that... But I hope you don't actually think the Amiga dudes will have the same effect. They're not in the same league as the BeOS guys were.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The same thing, plus more (BeFS), and still nobody cared.

Apple almost cared, but that's because they were desperate, and then Jobs showed them the light.

As though OpenStep was somehow better for end users?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Big waves? Well if want to call it that... But I hope you don't actually think the Amiga dudes will have the same effect. They're not in the same league as the BeOS guys were.

I can't predict the future, but let them try, I'm glad that the Amiga is still being worked on. I hope that at least their basic philosophy never dies.


And yes, I would say that BeOS made pretty big waves...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The same thing, plus more (BeFS), and still nobody cared.

Apple almost cared, but that's because they were desperate, and then Jobs showed them the light.

People did care. BeFS showed us what could be done with metadata. The OS was far more media capable than Mac OS at the time, it showed us what could be done on identical hardware to what the Mac was running on (frankly, it handed Apple's ass to them). Several of the developers have brought their sphere of influence and unique experiences from working on this project to other projects. For a long time, people thought Apple was going to buy them out. BeOS was a pretty optimized OS, IIRC.... It was a great demo for the PowerPC chip line too, far more so than Mac OS.

If something cool comes out of the Amiga project, maybe somebody bigger will buy this technology, who knows?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

As though OpenStep was somehow better for end users?

Exactly... OpenStep had a very particular focus too.

Not everybody is in business to be Apple or Microsoft. That's what many people don't realize in making direct comparisons to Linux and OS X too...

[besson3c]

Also, a lot of people discounted Apple while it was on its last legs and considered the company belly up and done for.

The Amiga would have a *LOT* of ground to make up if they were to do so at all, but nothing is impossible, if becoming a viable player in the industry again is what they hope to accomplish.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Exactly... OpenStep had a very particular focus too.

OpenStep was even less focused on the average Joe than BeOS was. Its greatest distinguishing characteristic — the one that remains most intact even today — was the Cocoa frameworks. The UI, graphics layer, file browser and even a lot of the underlying architecture were ripped out for OS X.

Which one do you think more people could use: a RAD framework or a fast system with great multimedia capabilities? Apple probably would have gone with the latter if Be Inc. hadn't tried to rob Apple blind and if NeXT didn't have the brilliance of Steve Jobs.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do film directors make risky and artsy films rather than just making low cost Adam Sandler films that will make them money? You're a creative person, aren't you?

It isn't the same thing as it is a product not art. This Amega is like building a fridge that uses less power starts up faster and uses an LED light instead of a incandescent one. Problem is it doesn't actually keep food fresh and it will cost you $1000. Oh and you can't buy it in stores either.

It is nothing more than nostalgia keeping it alive and finding the odd good idea along the way.

If they really wanted to push new technology there are better ways to go around it over selling special hardware and software that is next to useless and nobody will use.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

It isn't the same thing as it is a product not art. This Amega is like building a fridge that uses less power starts up faster and uses an LED light instead of a incandescent one. Problem is it doesn't actually keep food fresh and it will cost you $1000. Oh and you can't buy it in stores either.

It is nothing more than nostalgia keeping it alive and finding the odd good idea along the way.

If they really wanted to push new technology there are better ways to go around it over selling special hardware and software that is next to useless and nobody will use.

Who is to say that this isn't seen as an artistic en devour for the group? Maybe somebody inside the group decided it would be good to try to sell the product to draw attention to their work, but it doesn't seem a stretch to me at all that this work could be a creative venture for these people, as it certainly is a true labour of love with only the remotest possibility for any monetary gains.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

It isn't the same thing as it is a product not art.

Do you feel the same way about your designs?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Who is to say that this isn't seen as an artistic en devour for the group?

Wow. Talk about reaching...

[Jawbone54]

This thread has....

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Wow. Talk about reaching...

How so? There are many programmers who do see it that way.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

It isn't the same thing as it is a product not art. This Amega...

... is written Amiga. That's Spanish / Pig latin for GIRLfriend.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Wow. Talk about reaching...

Why is that? Programming can be a creative act, very much so in fact...

[besson3c]

Not to sound snotty or belittling or something, but I'm actually somewhat surprised with some of the reactions in here. I thought Mac users were supposed to be tolerant idealistic users understanding of what it is like to be the underdog?