[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I endorse them, you looking new or used?

Well, that's the question.

There's a 2011 XC70 nearby for $20K, and a 2013 one for $30K. This compares to close to $50K new...

If I continue the 10 year model, and the 2011 one will fit that bill without a big chance of hassle, it's a no-brainer.

If there's a fair risk of that tanking in 6 or 7 years, and then I drop another $20K, the math isn't as simple.

[subego]

Though now that I've typed it out, the "luxury" factor may be worth it at that price, even if it tanks on me before I want it to.

[subego]

The Volvo was on the ropes, but is coming back strong...

[subego]

And the Volvo takes a haymaker!

The precipitous price drop between the 2013 and the 2012 is the 2012 isn't 4WD.

2WD can be problematic in Chicago.

[subego]

Even though I respect Shaddim's opinion implicitly, I also respect Andi's opinion, and the Outbacks certainly seem to have the reputation for being pretty bulletproof.

If I buy a used Outback, it'll be outside the 40K kill zone.

[The Final Shortcut]

I cannot recommend Subarus enough. The Outback is a very large monster. Although you're probably going to find that the 2015 Subaru Outback refresh is much nicer than the earlier models, which means buying new.

We've got a new Forester (had to buy 3 months before the new Outbacks arrived). Also fantastic - my favourite in the small SUV category (along with the Mazda CX-5). Not quite as much interior room as the Outback though. But man, do these Subies plow through snow and mud like animals.

Honestly, when I got the first one a few years back it was destined to be a stepping stone on the way to a luxury AWD ride like Audi. I've re-thought the idea. They hold their value like crazy here in the real bad-winter country, and are more reliable - and far cheaper to maintain, although still pricey by domestic standards - than more expensive brands. After finding out what some buddies spend on an Audi and a BMW, I'm no longer interested haha.

[subego]

I think this is going to hinge on what attitude I want to have towards my car.

If it's my car, which I borrow for work: Volvo.

If it's a work car I borrow for personal stuff: Subaru.

As an example of the different thought processes, not sure I can justify a V6 on the Subaru, but the V8 on the Volvo almost feels like a requirement.

[subego]

Subarus keeping their value is noticeable. 2012 models cost $20K.

That's a $5K drop. A similar Volvo has lost $20K over this time.

[subego]

If the current blue book value of my car is about $8K, and it needs $10K in repairs, can I get any trade-in value off that?

Maybe this is a dumb question, maybe the reality is they'd want me to pay them to deal with it, but I imagine it's also possible they'll give me something like $1K for it.

[subego]

Originally Posted by subego 

Subarus keeping their value is noticeable. 2012 models cost $20K.

That's a $5K drop. A similar Volvo has lost $20K over this time.

What's noticeable about the Volvos however, is people keep them. There are only a half-dozen used ones for sale around here.

[subego]

@Andi and TFShortcut

Do you both have the standard engine? If so, is it pokey?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

If you're shopping for a Subaru have an extensive PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection) done, focusing on the transmission/transfer case, before purchase. In fact, I recommend you get a PPI on any used car before buying.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

If you're shopping for a Subaru have an extensive PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection) done, focusing on the transmission/transfer case, before purchase. In fact, I recommend you get a PPI on any used car before buying.

I may risk new if I go Outback. Both for the recent upgrades, and that there's so little depreciation on recent used.

That said, if I go used, that sounds like good advice. Necessary with certified cars?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by subego 

Subarus keeping their value is noticeable. 2012 models cost $20K.

That's a $5K drop. A similar Volvo has lost $20K over this time.

Volvos have further to fall, you should see the 3 year depreciation on an AMG Mercedes. *whistles*

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Volvos have further to fall, you should see the 3 year depreciation on an AMG Mercedes. *whistles*

Good point.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

In fact, I think the only luxury/semi-exotic German cars that don't completely tank in value are true BMW M cars (not the lesser M-sport models).

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by subego 

That's a problem for me, because I really want a Range Rover, but can't justify it for hauling. I wish Land Rover still made the models you can wash out with a hose.

Originally Posted by subego 

I like the look of that, but I think I may have drank the wagon kool-aid.

Check out this new, inexpensive, utilitarian Range Rover.



Haha just kidding that's the new Explorer! All of the looks at a fraction of the price with (probably) better reliability!

[subego]

That's the sucky thing.

I've wanted a RR for more than 20 years, but they aren't the same cars which made me lust after one 20 years ago, when they were still considered utility vehicles.

I don't dislike the new designs, but I feel they've moved pretty far from what originally made them cool.

[Laminar]

One thing that's always fun to bring up in threads like this - while anecdotes about a vehicle's abilities can be useful, anecdotes about a vehicle's reliability are worse than...like...the Holocaust. People in general like to extrapolate their experiences or the experiences of "a guy I know" to somehow represent relevant sample sizes and that's not how it works. For reliability check TrueDelta or Consumer Reports. They're both flawed in their own ways but they're a hell of a lot closer to "helpful" than random people with potential axes to grind or purchases to justify.

[andi*pandi]

I've had 4 subarus, all of which cleared 150k mileage easily, some cresting 200k. Then again, I got them after the 40k mark as well.

All of them were standard transmissions, which, if you have to deal with lots of stop n go traffic, may be annoying. The new paddle shift may be for you, or straight automatic.

I have a 2010 6speed which has more cargo than the 2008 models and plenty of power for me. Not sure what the specs are for the 2015, as I don't plan on trading up until, say, 2022 or so.

If you want the luxury or feel of a higher end car, get a Limited Edition with leather etc. Also, heated seats + winter = win.

[subego]

Originally Posted by subego 

If it's my car, which I borrow for work: Volvo.

If it's a work car I borrow for personal stuff: Subaru.

I'm leaning towards the Subaru again.

The problem is the Volvo isn't really me, so I don't know if I should buy a car for me which isn't me.

I'm not even sure anymore what car would be "me". It's not really an RR anymore. Just who the **** am I?

Probably a Jeep Wrangler, even though I never off-road.

Or... I'm no car at all. I like walking. I like taking the train.

[Laminar]

And not to keep banging on about Fords, but the Flex is a decent option.



83 cubic feet vs. 63 of the X3 or 73 of the Outback. Base V6 for solid reliability or Ecoboost V6 for fun. The XC90 has 85 cubic feet although the new ones dropped the V8 option.

[The Final Shortcut]

Originally Posted by subego 

@Andi and TFShortcut

Do you both have the standard engine? If so, is it pokey?

I do - 170hp with CVT. It's got "solid" bite in higher revs - getting from 60 to 80 is not a problem - but moderately pokey if you're starting lower in the band. Manual paddles able you to downshift to get RPMs up quicker, but it's still not the same of course. All that to say that if you're looking for comparison to an X5, even the upgraded engine may not make you happy.

The 250hp version Forester is really fun. A good friend of mine has it and that's what convinced me to go Forester in the first place. But the wife was happy with standard engine and I figured we could look at an upgrade if/when we upgrade or get a second Forester/Outback. We're on a short term (24month) lease for the time being - the great resale value actually means damn good lease payments if you can get a low rate (which you can on Forester but probably not on the new Outback, yet).

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut 

I do - 170hp with CVT. It's got "solid" bite in higher revs - getting from 60 to 80 is not a problem - but moderately pokey if you're starting lower in the band. Manual paddles able you to downshift to get RPMs up quicker, but it's still not the same of course. All that to say that if you're looking for comparison to an X5, even the upgraded engine may not make you happy.

The 250hp version Forester is really fun. A good friend of mine has it and that's what convinced me to go Forester in the first place. But the wife was happy with standard engine and I figured we could look at an upgrade if/when we upgrade or get a second Forester/Outback. We're on a short term (24month) lease for the time being - the great resale value actually means damn good lease payments if you can get a low rate (which you can on Forester but probably not on the new Outback, yet).

I know I'd take a hit in the fun factor with an Outback vs. the X5, but the reality is 90% of my driving is in the city, in traffic. Fun isn't an option. For that other 10% I just want to be able to pass effectively.

[subego]

But... ****.

If I need to take a two-hour plus drive, I'm going to wish I had the Volvo.

[subego]

About a half dozen times now I've felt I've made a solid, irreversible decision, and then a half-hour later I have no idea again.

[subego]

Though it's a small portion of the load-out I posted a picture of, I think my camera equipment would appreciate the smoother ride I'd get out of the Volvo.

[subego]

This model Volvo looks best in white IMO. All my local choices post 2009 are black, or that horrible color they use on low-profile cop cars.

I know it's dumb, especially since black is more or less acceptable*, but I'm still irritated by it.



*All my previous cars have been black.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

*All my previous cars have been black.

*African-American

[subego]

Only the Jeep. Two BMWs.

[The Final Shortcut]

I think you probably need more test driving and less Internet speculation.

That's really what sealed it for me - the Forester was a surprisingly fun drive, and since they let me test drive it by ourselves I was able to return it much dirtier than when I went out, much to the sales guy's amusement. Enough to have to engage the X-Drive mode, anyway.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut 

I think you probably need more test driving and less Internet speculation.

That's really what sealed it for me - the Forester was a surprisingly fun drive, and since they let me test drive it by ourselves I was able to return it much dirtier than when I went out, much to the sales guy's amusement. Enough to have to engage the X-Drive mode, anyway.

Yeah... truth is, I kinda hate driving, so fun doesn't really enter into the equation.

I don't want the Volvo because it's a fun drive, I want it because I'll be more comfortable doing something I hate.

[subego]

And, I think things may hinge on the camera equipment.

I could take a test drive to determine unequivocally which one has the smoother ride, but I'm pretty confident in my speculation.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Go drive them both, a Volvo wagon and a Subaru Outback, in the type of traffic you normally find yourself in, and then decide. I know that could be a little unfair, Volvos have a more silky ride, but it's your back.

[subego]

Honestly, that almost seems kinda silly.

If I'm letting smooth ride be the determinant (which I think I've decided I am), I'd be pretty floored if it wasn't the Volvo.

[andi*pandi]

I could be a better judge of "smooth ride" if the darn streets weren't so full of potholes.

but you'll never know til you try them both.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by subego 

Honestly, that almost seems kinda silly.

If I'm letting smooth ride be the determinant (which I think I've decided I am), I'd be pretty floored if it wasn't the Volvo.

It's like driving a Merc E class and then hopping into a Jeep Cherokee, each has its merits, but very quickly it becomes obvious that they aren't in the same category.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Hey, what about a Saab wagon? This is a hell of a deal.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Hey, what about a Saab wagon? This is a hell of a deal.

I think the basic idea was NOT to spend tons of money in future repairs

-t

[Phileas]

The Ford Flex with the EcoBoost engine is one hell of a vehicle. I know people who use them for serious hauling and we very nearly bought one as a company van - the only reason we didn't was that we got a cracking deal on a different model.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I think the basic idea was NOT to spend tons of money in future repairs

What? It needs ~$1000 in body work, but the super low price and low mileage makes up for that. Saab 9-5s are nice cars.

[The Final Shortcut]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

It's like driving a Merc E class and then hopping into a Jeep Cherokee, each has its merits, but very quickly it becomes obvious that they aren't in the same category.

Oddly enough: I drove an 09 E500 for 3 months last year before getting the Forester. A good buddy was moving to England and had babied his car: I got it for an amazing price. Yeah it was pretty awesome. But the RWD handling was brutal on slippery roads - borderline criminal - and then I had to replace two rotors......wow $, lol. So I sold it for more than a little more than I got it for and surprisingly, the transition to the budget Forester was pretty smooth. That first ride pretty much sealed it for me.

All that to say that I would just drop by a dealer and try them both out. Hell, bring a heavy suitcase to load as well, just to test loading ergonomics. It will literally be a couple hours out of your day which is well worth $30k purchase IMO.

[andi*pandi]

Yeah, the internet has helped you narrow it down... but before you drop that much money, go try them all out. Even the flex, because it looks cool.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

One thing that's always fun to bring up in threads like this - while anecdotes about a vehicle's abilities can be useful, anecdotes about a vehicle's reliability are worse than...like...the Holocaust. People in general like to extrapolate their experiences or the experiences of "a guy I know" to somehow represent relevant sample sizes and that's not how it works. For reliability check TrueDelta or Consumer Reports. They're both flawed in their own ways but they're a hell of a lot closer to "helpful" than random people with potential axes to grind or purchases to justify.

That's the truth. You could post on just about any online forum that you are looking at a Range Rover or Mercedes and you will get the same knee jerk reactions about "Range Rover electrical problems" and "Mercedes high repair costs" from people who never owned the car and probably don't know anyone that owns one either.

Those same people will then tell you to buy a Lexus that they have no experience with either.

[subego]

The reason I'm resistant to spend the effort for a test drive is how the thing drives is probably one of the least relevant factors to my choice.

The Subaru wins, hands down. It's cheaper, will probably last longer, and I can get the color I want.

This was until I decided "smooth ride uber alles".

Is everybody really telling me its worth it to spend a whole day (which is what it would take, neither of the dealers in question are in the city) to prove to myself the luxury car rides smoother?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Hey, what about a Saab wagon? This is a hell of a deal.

Doesn't look like 4WD. If it was, I'd be on it. Dents don't bother me.

Edit: In fact, I like "pre-dented", because then I stop worrying about dents.

[ghporter]

I drive a 2014 X3. It's "different" from the earlier versions in a lot of ways, which they extended to all of the X-series vehicles. First, it has a better power to weight ratio than earlier versions. Second, it handles better; my sister in law has a 2013 X3, and it's OK, but mine handles much better (it's not miles, she hardly ever takes hers out of the garage).

And as for maintenance, BMW now features free scheduled maintenance for 3 years or 36,000 miles, so no more $300 oil filters, at least for the first three years. Many BMWs also now come standard with run-flat tires, which saves a lot of weight (for better economy) and adds a big safety factor.

Reconsider the BMWs. In Chicagoland, you probably have a few dealership choices, which could help. Here in the Alamo City, we have one dealership, located in a not-so-easy to get to spot, so I'd have to go to Austin to get a competing offer. I'm sure BMW wants to keep you in the fold, so give 'em another look.

[subego]

The one good pro SUV argument I've heard is the "smash & grab" type shit I carry is less visible inside an SUV.

Drop cloth seems the answer, but that's extra effort.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I drive a 2014 X3. It's "different" from the earlier versions in a lot of ways, which they extended to all of the X-series vehicles. First, it has a better power to weight ratio than earlier versions. Second, it handles better; my sister in law has a 2013 X3, and it's OK, but mine handles much better (it's not miles, she hardly ever takes hers out of the garage).

And as for maintenance, BMW now features free scheduled maintenance for 3 years or 36,000 miles, so no more $300 oil filters, at least for the first three years. Many BMWs also now come standard with run-flat tires, which saves a lot of weight (for better economy) and adds a big safety factor.

Reconsider the BMWs. In Chicagoland, you probably have a few dealership choices, which could help. Here in the Alamo City, we have one dealership, located in a not-so-easy to get to spot, so I'd have to go to Austin to get a competing offer. I'm sure BMW wants to keep you in the fold, so give 'em another look.

#NotAllBMWs

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by subego 

The one good pro SUV argument I've heard is the "smash & grab" type shit I carry is less visible inside an SUV.

Drop cloth seems the answer, but that's extra effort.

Tinted windows, bro.