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Segregation comes to Toronto
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Eug
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Jan 30, 2008, 12:43 AM
 
globeandmail.com: Toronto trustees narrowly approve black school

In a tight vote, Toronto District School Board trustees Tuesday night approved a contentious proposal for a black-focused school that opponents argued would be the equivalent of segregation.

The 11-9 vote in favour came after an evening of impassioned pleas both for and against the school from community members, including one from the mother of slain 15-year-old Jordan Manners.

Tuesday night's vote means that an alternative Afrocentric school will open in the city in September, 2009, but its location and grade levels are still to be determined.


Personally, I think our school trustrees are out-to-lunch on this one. This will solve nothing, and will piss off a lot of people, once they realize how much effort and money this costs... especially considering that it will solve nothing.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 30, 2008, 12:58 AM
 
Wow, `08 Toronto = `58 Alabama.


yeah, yeah, cheap shot, but it sounds too similar.
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Jan 30, 2008, 01:16 AM
 
This is consistent with multiculturalism. Different cultures have different habits and values, and in a multicultural pluralistic society, why shouldn't one culture be allowed to preserve itself through autonomous education? Multiculturalism is "Canada's gift to the world," the perpetuation of which is a duty and function of the state.

Never mind that it bears the appearance of segregation. So long as liberal Canadians are behind the division of races, the praxis of multiculturalism will be deemed a thing of enlightenment.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jan 30, 2008, 01:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
This is consistent with multiculturalism. Different cultures have different habits and values, and in a multicultural pluralistic society, why shouldn't one culture be allowed to preserve itself through autonomous education? Multiculturalism is "Canada's gift to the world," the perpetuation of which is a duty and function of the state.

Never mind that it bears the appearance of segregation. So long as liberal Canadians are behind the division of races, the praxis of multiculturalism will be deemed a thing of enlightenment.
Well, this is not autonomous education. This is the public school board voting to spend taxpayer dollars. In other words, this is government bureaucracy expanding itself. I would have no problem if the groups demanding this ponied up their own money to start such schools (in an efficient manner), like other ethnic communities have. It's costing taxpayers almost a million bux to just get started.

Furthermore, there is no evidence this would actually solve any of the serious underlying problems.

Note also that this is the context of a city which is short on cash. Toronto just implemented a new cash grab land transfer tax, which adds a huge tax to home buyers in the city, just to help make up for serious budget shortfalls.

P.S. This doesn't have the support of the general population. This idea of a segregated school is not popular with the general public, except for a vocal minority (and apparently a slight majority of trustees). In a way this is similar to faith-based schools taking money from the public coffers. This was offered up by the Conservatives as a campaign promise in the last election, and for this reason the Conservatives got pounded into the ground. The public was dead set against it.
( Last edited by Eug; Jan 30, 2008 at 01:31 AM. )
     
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Jan 30, 2008, 02:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
This is consistent with multiculturalism. Different cultures have different habits and values, and in a multicultural pluralistic society, why shouldn't one culture be allowed to preserve itself through autonomous education? Multiculturalism is "Canada's gift to the world," the perpetuation of which is a duty and function of the state.

Never mind that it bears the appearance of segregation. So long as liberal Canadians are behind the division of races, the praxis of multiculturalism will be deemed a thing of enlightenment.
In my view this is not at all consistent with multiculturalism. Having grown up in Canada, multiculturalism has always been about being open minded and accepting of a diverse range of cultures. Creating a seperate, publicly funded, school for one ethnic group is the opposite of that. It doesn't just bear the appearance of segregation, it IS segregation albeit voluntary.

They should be revamping the curriculum for all schools to include a broader range of education and opportunity for all students and to create a spirit of togetherness between students of different cultures. Instead, they are helping institutionalize our differences which is a serious step backwards.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Jan 30, 2008, 04:01 PM
 
A nation depends on having a unique culture. If Canada is truly promoting a "multi-cultured" nation - then that would explain why Canada lacks its own culture. After all, what *is* Canada? What makes a Canadian?

The USA is having the same conflict. We have different cultures that try to dominate the others. Instead of an "American" culture we're becoming a piece of land with different cultures co-existing. Great nations must have citizens with some allegiance to their nation. A simple something that allows them to believe they share a common goal. Until recently, the USA did, indeed, have its own culture. A blend of cultures and a common goal. Tell me why, for example, a person would move to a new land just to make it look and feel exactly like the land he left?
     
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:10 PM
 
Some black parents in Toronto have asked for an afrocentric school which can emphasize the learning of more black culture. Music classes which emphasizes black music, literature which emphasizes black writers, history classes which emphasize the black experience. All of that stuff is sorely deficient in your typical public school.

Rather than ask non-black parents to have their kids sit thru black studies shoved into the mainstream schools, black parents can elect to send their kids to this instead. Would you rather fight over the amount of black culture taught in public schools?

I very much doubt that this initiative will really address the core problems of black youth in Toronto. But it will address the complaint about the "Euro-centric" focus of education.

BTW, this black school will still teach the required curriculum. It will merely trim out some elective courses (History of European Music or Advanced Shakespeare) in favor of electives in Caribbean History, or History of Jazz, or what have you.

I see this initiative as reasonable. The alternative - fighting over the mainstream curriculum - as much more problematic and divisive.
     
nonhuman
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy View Post
A nation depends on having a unique culture. If Canada is truly promoting a "multi-cultured" nation - then that would explain why Canada lacks its own culture. After all, what *is* Canada? What makes a Canadian?

The USA is having the same conflict. We have different cultures that try to dominate the others. Instead of an "American" culture we're becoming a piece of land with different cultures co-existing. Great nations must have citizens with some allegiance to their nation. A simple something that allows them to believe they share a common goal. Until recently, the USA did, indeed, have its own culture. A blend of cultures and a common goal. Tell me why, for example, a person would move to a new land just to make it look and feel exactly like the land he left?
Oh please. The US has never had it's own 'American' culture. I've lived in Southern New Jersey, Northern New Jersey, Northern California, Southern Minnesota, New Mexico, and Boston. I've visited Texas, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Maryland, DC, &c. There are many different cultures within the US and always have been. I'm pretty sure that at some point we may have even fought a war about it...

And what's the obsession with being a 'great' nation? A nation is a collection of people, nothing more. It's culture, such as it is, is created by the interactions between those people. Any time you add a person or take a person away you change the culture to some extent. When you have massive immigration from another place the culture is going to change no matter how hard those new people try to fit in simply because they grew up thinking different things.
     
nonhuman
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Some black parents in Toronto have asked for an afrocentric school which can emphasize the learning of more black culture. Music classes which emphasizes black music, literature which emphasizes black writers, history classes which emphasize the black experience. All of that stuff is sorely deficient in your typical public school.

Rather than ask non-black parents to have their kids sit thru black studies shoved into the mainstream schools, black parents can elect to send their kids to this instead. Would you rather fight over the amount of black culture taught in public schools?

I very much doubt that this initiative will really address the core problems of black youth in Toronto. But it will address the complaint about the "Euro-centric" focus of education.

BTW, this black school will still teach the required curriculum. It will merely trim out some elective courses (History of European Music or Advanced Shakespeare) in favor of electives in Caribbean History, or History of Jazz, or what have you.

I see this initiative as reasonable. The alternative - fighting over the mainstream curriculum - as much more problematic and divisive.
Why would they just add afro-centric electives to the other schools? That would seem to make a whole lot more sense, be easier, and be cheaper...
     
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Why would they just add afro-centric electives to the other schools? That would seem to make a whole lot more sense, be easier, and be cheaper...
At the very least, you'd need a Jazz teacher in every school, which isn't reasonable. And it's probably not any cheaper, but perhaps less controversial.
     
nonhuman
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Jan 30, 2008, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
At the very least, you'd need a Jazz teacher in every school, which isn't reasonable. And it's probably not any cheaper, but perhaps less controversial.
How the hell is a jazz teacher in every school not reasonable?

(Sorry, jazz band was the best part of my pre-college existence...)
     
Eug  (op)
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Jan 30, 2008, 10:13 PM
 
Jazz teachers are going to solve all educational ills in Toronto!
     
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Jan 30, 2008, 10:37 PM
 
Is this like the ebonics education they were trying to pass in California a few years ago? English for Black people.
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juniper
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Feb 1, 2008, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Wow, `08 Toronto = `58 Alabama.


yeah, yeah, cheap shot, but it sounds too similar.
yes. wow.
     
DBursey
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Feb 4, 2008, 04:31 PM
 
except that this initiative has been promoted from within the black community in Toronto.

The premier of Ontario has spoken out against funding it So I don't belive it is yet a fait accompli.

As far as Canadian multiculturalism goes, someone got it right earlier. The kids are homogenized by influences encountered in schooling, pop / media / mall culture etc. By 2nd / 3rd gen, they're all indistinguishable in terms of talk, dress, cultural references etc. For better or for worse.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Feb 4, 2008, 09:56 PM
 
I still insist that Canada lacks a "Canadian" culture. Just like Europe is losing its "European" culture. Call me stupid, but if you do - please explain to me what "Canadian" culture is today. It's a conglomeration of cultures. There is nothing unique about it. How can a nation call itself a nation if the citizens share no common culture?

I love Canada. And I don't want to see it become a mishmash of crap. I expect Canadians to be Canadians. Why wouldn't I?
     
Eug  (op)
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Feb 6, 2008, 11:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by DBursey View Post
except that this initiative has been promoted from within the black community in Toronto.
Except that a very large portion of the black community in Toronto thinks this is a really stupid idea. And the overwhelming majority of the rest of the population agrees it's stupid.

The concept of education including more black historical references is not bad at all. It's just that the trustees voting for this haven't thought this through, and they don't have the blessing of either the population or the governing body at this time. Basically, some vocal portion of the black community has asked for this, and the trustees have gone out of their way to pander to that vocal minority.


Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy View Post
I still insist that Canada lacks a "Canadian" culture. Just like Europe is losing its "European" culture. Call me stupid, but if you do - please explain to me what "Canadian" culture is today. It's a conglomeration of cultures. There is nothing unique about it. How can a nation call itself a nation if the citizens share no common culture?

I love Canada. And I don't want to see it become a mishmash of crap. I expect Canadians to be Canadians. Why wouldn't I?
That just it. It's a mishmash of great stuff. For example, I personally think Toronto is in the top 3 in North America for range of good quality restaurants, after maybe New York, etc. I personally think New York is a great city, because of its multiculturalism.
( Last edited by Eug; Feb 6, 2008 at 11:57 PM. )
     
Eug  (op)
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May 22, 2008, 12:36 AM
 
Confirmed.

TheStar.com | News & Features | GTA Africentric grade school to open in 2009

After years of debate that has divided communities of every colour, Toronto's public school board voted tonight to open an Africentric alternative school in September 2009. The junior kindergarten to Grade 5 school – believed to be a first in Canada – is expected to help tackle a 40 per cent dropout rate among black students.

Approved by a 13-8 vote after a heated debate in which one trustee called another a racist, the school will be located in an empty wing of Sheppard Public School on Sheppard Ave. W. near Keele St.

The board also voted to study the feasibility of opening an Africentric high school in the future, but rejected a proposal to do so by September 2010, a timeline trustee Irene Atkinson called "absurdly" short.


I'm disappointed, especially since my tax dollars are paying for this.

P.S. Since when do students drop out in grade 5?
     
turtle777
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May 22, 2008, 01:04 AM
 
So when is Canadia gonna introduce all gay schools ?

That's at least one way to be ahead of the US, since the all-black thing is so last century-ish.

-t
     
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May 22, 2008, 01:14 AM
 
So does this mean I can finally start my All White, Super-Hot Redheads and Brunettes School?

But seriously, I feel disenfranchised. Ever since BET was started, I've been waiting for WET: White Entertainment Television. Ugh.

It funny how we all seem to want to get rid of wacism, then all you hear about is how different we all are -- and how we need to keep our cultures separate.
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May 22, 2008, 01:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Oh please. The US has never had it's own 'American' culture. I've lived in Southern New Jersey, Northern New Jersey, Northern California, Southern Minnesota, New Mexico, and Boston. I've visited Texas, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Maryland, DC, &c. There are many different cultures within the US and always have been. I'm pretty sure that at some point we may have even fought a war about it...

And what's the obsession with being a 'great' nation? A nation is a collection of people, nothing more. It's culture, such as it is, is created by the interactions between those people. Any time you add a person or take a person away you change the culture to some extent. When you have massive immigration from another place the culture is going to change no matter how hard those new people try to fit in simply because they grew up thinking different things.
A nation, as a definition, is a collection of people who have similar beliefs and history. You're speaking about how a state can have multiple nations, which historically, has always led to strife. You will either integrate, and become a nation-state, or you will have violence. History is doomed to repeat itself, and this is an obvious case. Simplified, there is two outcomes, removal of the "alien" nation to form a nation-state (genocide, exodus, or other ways of forcing people out), or you're going to have assimilation. History teaches us that there is no other way in the long run.
     
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May 22, 2008, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
But seriously, I feel disenfranchised. Ever since BET was started, I've been waiting for WET: White Entertainment Television. Ugh.
TNN died, remember?
     
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May 22, 2008, 08:36 AM
 
Wow... what a silly idea. Let's take our children and divide them up by color so we can instill in them a sense of equity and belonging! You really have to wonder about some humans.
     
lpkmckenna
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May 23, 2008, 04:57 PM
 
Since no one has bothered to check the facts: any child can attend this school, regardless of race.
     
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May 25, 2008, 01:59 PM
 
Students drop out in grade 3. Their bodies attend until grade 9 or 10 but for a drop-out, the mind stopped attending years before.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Confirmed.

TheStar.com | News & Features | GTA Africentric grade school to open in 2009

After years of debate that has divided communities of every colour, Toronto's public school board voted tonight to open an Africentric alternative school in September 2009. The junior kindergarten to Grade 5 school – believed to be a first in Canada – is expected to help tackle a 40 per cent dropout rate among black students.

Approved by a 13-8 vote after a heated debate in which one trustee called another a racist, the school will be located in an empty wing of Sheppard Public School on Sheppard Ave. W. near Keele St.

The board also voted to study the feasibility of opening an Africentric high school in the future, but rejected a proposal to do so by September 2010, a timeline trustee Irene Atkinson called "absurdly" short.


I'm disappointed, especially since my tax dollars are paying for this.

P.S. Since when do students drop out in grade 5?
     
Eug  (op)
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May 26, 2008, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Since no one has bothered to check the facts: any child can attend this school, regardless of race.
Yes they can, but they won't, which is the point. It's a black-focused curriculum specifically for blacks in Toronto... but it's paid for entirely by public money.

The other fact that the Toronto District School Board failed take into consideration is that the majority of the Toronto population opposes this (as does the ruling party of the province).
     
lpkmckenna
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May 26, 2008, 01:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Yes they can, but they won't, which is the point. It's a black-focused curriculum specifically for blacks in Toronto... but it's paid for entirely by public money.
Yes, just like every other alternative school.
The other fact that the Toronto District School Board failed take into consideration is that the majority of the Toronto population opposes this (as does the ruling party of the province).
It's called "leadership."
     
turtle777
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May 26, 2008, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Since no one has bothered to check the facts: any child can attend this school, regardless of race.
I fail to see how this makes it any better.

-t
     
Eug  (op)
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May 26, 2008, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yes, just like every other alternative school.
Not really. The culturally and religiously oriented alternative schools in Toronto are mostly paid for by private money. I have no problem with an "alternative" black school, if it's largely paid for with "alternative" money. Do you see any Chinese schools wholly paid for by public money? No? I wonder why... cuz there are a heluvalot more Chinese in Toronto than blacks. What about Pakistani schools wholly paid for by public money?

And what does "black" mean anyway? Should we have both Jamaican and Zimbabwean schools? How about Brazilian black schools with the primary language being Portugese?

There are other publicly funded "alternative" schools but they may focus on career type, etc. ie. School for the performing arts or technical schools. Also, there are schools for special education for the mentally retarded. Interestingly, none of these schools segregate based on race...

It's called "leadership."
Not really. It's called pandering to the vocal minority with public money, without good evidence it will actually help.
( Last edited by Eug; May 26, 2008 at 03:10 PM. )
     
   
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