[Spliffdaddy]

OMG they're burning cars and running wild in the streets. Obviously, things are much worse than BBC World News is trying to portray - since BBC is anti-America and pro-Europe, and all.

In my estimation, thousands may be dead and hundreds of city blocks have been burned and looted.

Seems that it all started in the 'poor' (aka non-white) neighborhoods because of police violence and oppression.

This unrest has been going on for over a week - starting with the death of 2 teens at the hands of police officers. Later, the police tear gassed a mosque.

Reckon France is trying to put their poor (aka non-white & Muslim) population back into the box so they can pretend it doesn't exist.

It's difficult to get the 'real' story because we have to rely on biased, censored news sources so common in France (remember the deadly heat wave that killed thousands, yet was all but ignored by French media?).

All this from a nation that fancies itself as worthy to tell the USA what it needs to do.

Post what you *believe* is going on in France and we'll compare notes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4395294.stm

[vmarks]

So far, there have been five straight nights of rioting in France.

The International Herald Trib quotes Sarkozy (French Interior Minister) as saying violence is a "daily fact of life" in French suburbs.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/31/news/france.php

"Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched, Sarkozy said in an interview last week with the newspaper Le Monde."

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/even...parisyouthriot is about the 5th straight night of rioting.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html
Is an article on the fourth night of rioting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051030...e_051030022906
third night... - Yahoo re-wrote it so that the rioters are now portrayed as peaceful victims laying flowers and observing silences.

[Spliffdaddy]

Geez. That's insane.

Even the world-reknowned Los Angeles riot only lasted 36 hours.

France seems to have completely lost all control of the situation.

[Doofy]

This is not a French riot. This is the start of WW3. Slowly but surely.

The cause of it all is too many people falling for the illusion propagated right there in Vmark's signature.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Immigrants making trouble. I don't know if that is WW III material. I'd say this falls into the "so what else is new" catagory.

cheers

W-Y

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Immigrants making trouble. I don't know if that is WW III material.

Not just any old immigrants. This is immigrants with a global agenda.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I'd say this falls into the "so what else is new" catagory.

And there's the problem right there.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Not just any old immigrants. This is immigrants with a global agenda.

And there's the problem right there.

Chilling.

Frightening echoes of Lebensraum - a blood-curdling reminder that the ghosts of Nazism can change their clothes and stalk us still......

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

Chilling.

Frightening echoes of Lebensraum - a blood-curdling reminder that the ghosts of Nazism can change their clothes and stalk us still......

...and even cause riots in Paris suburbs.

In case you forgot, the "social group" which these immigrants belong to happened to be on the side of evil during WW2.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

...and even cause riots in Paris suburbs.

In case you forgot, the "social group" which these immigrants belong to happened to be on the side of evil during WW2.

Times change.

The victims of 'evil' in WW2 were the same victims massacred by the 'good guys' in the Crusades. Now 'evil' has a different face.

In case you forgot (or never knew or wanted to know), 'evil' operates a State apparatus and victimizes and demonizes racial sub-groups by slogans, lies and incessant repeat of propaganda.

Just because stupid people believe the propaganda doesn't make it right. I guess it took 6 million Jews to die before the Germans started to question the 'absolute truth' of the sacrificing Christian babies myth and the Reichstag fire.

How many millions of Muslims have to be killed for you to start thinking?

[Spliffdaddy]

Ah yes, the Muslims are bringing this on themselves.

Just like the black folks were to blame for the riot in Los Angeles.

Seems that some folks just don't know their place in society, huh?

If they'd just keep quiet and let us pretend they don't exist and aren't part of a national culture - then we, the elite folks, would be happy.

Yet, somehow it isn't a "French riot" - it's simply a riot happening in France with French participants.

Tell us again, France, what the USA needs to do. You guys seem to have everything figured out.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

Times change.

Arh. So that's why 72% of all racial hatred crimes committed in France in 2003 were by muslims against Jews?

Originally Posted by segovius

In case you forgot (or never knew or wanted to know), 'evil' operates a State apparatus and victimizes and demonizes racial sub-groups by slogans, lies and incessant repeat of propaganda.

Like this:

All spears should be directed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the nation that was cursed in Allah's book. Allah has described them as apes and pigs, the calf-worshipers, idol-worshipers

The Jews have exposed their fangs. Nothing will deter them, except the color of their filthy people's blood; nothing will deter them except for us voluntarily detonating ourselves in their midst. They have nuclear power, but we have the power of the belief in Allah...

Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head

?

(BTW, those quotes are 21st century)

Originally Posted by segovius

Just because stupid people believe the propaganda doesn't make it right.

Exactly. They'll go on believing your propaganda until they wake up.

Originally Posted by segovius

I guess it took 6 million Jews to die before the Germans started to question the 'absolute truth' of the sacrificing Christian babies myth and the Reichstag fire.

How many millions of Muslims have to be killed for you to start thinking?

None. Thinking already done, conclusion already reached. Islam is incompatible with western democracy and causes strife wherever its followers are allowed to settle in mass numbers.

Fact: This violence in France was caused by muslims.
Fact: The violence a couple of weeks back in England was caused by muslims.

See that? No Buddhists or Hindus or Sikhs starting anything.

[Monique]

Before you condemn the French; do any of you speak French or ever went to France. You do not know much of anything about French society.

2. It is up to the immigrant to be part of the society he wants to join in not the other way around.

3. What did those people who rioted do to get a job lately, any job, did they send massive amount of resumes, did they get an education, did they study into a blue collar field, did they study the market?? No they complain that the society they live in is racist; well the society I live in is racist but I got a job during the lock out I have to live through and when this one is finished I will get another one by applying to different placement agencies. You have to be willing to compromise, it is not fun but paying your bills is more important than anything else. So you want to advance in a society you do not riot and whine you pull up your sleeves and do something.

4. One of the problem with the Muslims is that they want to recreate the society they come from. Well they do not live in their countries, they live in France and should make every effort to become French.

5. France is a free society and if you are honest you are able to speak you own language at home and have your own religion.

6. The French authorities were right to ban the head scarf for the young Muslim girls; it is a public education not a private one and there is no religion taught and no promulgation of any religion on school ground. Bravo to them.

7. I do not doubt that there are some violent police members in France (one example is during the student uprising of 1968, a police office (of their special forces) broke the arm of a young woman against a rail. But, nobody here is telling me what really happened with the two men they shot; were they menacing or did the police just line them up against a wall and practice shooting on them.

8. I do not really trust the BBC when it comes to reporting news in France it is well known that the French and the British cannot stand each other.

9. So look at the responsibilities of the Muslim group that started this riot.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Monique

Before you condemn the French; do any of you speak French or ever went to France. You do not know much of anything about French society.

Yes, I lived in paris for two long, long years - more than enough time to see the endemic racism permeating every level of society. Except the bottom level - that is the level of the 'scum' who don't exist.

And we should also remember that this is the country where an extreme-right racist neo-Nazi party came second in the national election.

The same country which trumpets 'attacks on Jews by Muslims) over all the Newspapers but when they are found to be fake and outrageous lies (as has happened on at least three occasions that I personally read in papers there and at least three others I heard of) it barely warrants a mention on the middle page.

The same country that has a grand total of zero black or even non-white newsreaders, where ethnic minorities are barely represented at any level int he media (except for sports stars) and where they are it is in the most routine stereotypical manner.

Yep. France is up there with Italy in a two-way tie as the most racist nation in Europe.

[Monique]

So you have the right to your opinion on the subject.

It is true that one experience can be totally different that another.

I am white and French so I would have no problem to adapt to the French society.

Correction about the second world war, not the entire country was against the Jews, some were and some saved a lot of lives.

That why when I criticize Canada I never say the entire country I say most people.

I do not doubt that there are a lot of racist people that believe that their ways are the only one, but there are a lot of good people out there.

You did not like France so you got out good for you; I hope you are happier where you are right now.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Monique

You did not like France so you got out good for you; I hope you are happier where you are right now.

I think I do like France - Paris is well, Paris and if you are paying 2000 Euros plus per month for a very small apartment and you have not such good quality of life then big city life can be a drag anywhere.

Having said that, some of the most beautiful places in Europe (imo) are in France - Montpellier, Toulouse and the Auvergne area are amazing. The people (outside Paris) are great too and very friendly - the thing is though that this spectre of racism - and that's what Islamophobia is - is a cancer that is sweeping europe and robbing people of the ability to think and be civilized.

It's not that there are no 'terrorists' - it's just that the stereotypical 'terrorist' was the first to catch the disease of extremism and hate but now people all over Europe are catching it too. It happened before and now it is happening again - people can't see it because the disease makes them blind and this time there is a new victim.

I'm glad you love your country. All of us who love our countries should work ceaselessly to save our countries from this sickness - or else we'll all go down.

[goMac]

Does anyone here not remember the WTO riots in the states, or do I only remember that because I'm from Seattle?

Seriously guys... it happens here too.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by vmarks

url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051030/wl_afp/franceriotpolice_051030022906[/url]
third night... - Yahoo re-wrote it so that the rioters are now portrayed as peaceful victims laying flowers and observing silences.

I didn't think so. They still talk about the rioting a lot.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

the thing is though that this spectre of racism - and that's what Islamophobia is

islam is not a race.
Dislike of islam is not a "phobia".

Originally Posted by segovius

is a cancer that is sweeping europe and robbing people of the ability to think and be civilized.

No. islam is the cancer which is sweeping Europe and robbing people of the ability to think and be civilised.

Originally Posted by segovius

I'm glad you love your country. All of us who love our countries should work ceaselessly to save our countries from this sickness - or else we'll all go down.

Agreed. Our countries need saving from this cancer.

[Monique]

I do not love Canada and I would much happier in Europe but it is so hard to immigrate to Europe. Never mind the myth that it would be easy for a Canadian to move to the U.K. I wish it were; so I am the best person here to understand the unhappiness of some and wanting more by moving away.

[Peder Rice]

Doofy, I simply cannot understand your take on Islam, believing it to be fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.

I have never met a radical Muslim, and yet I see you as a radical. Interesting, no?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Monique

I do not love Canada and I would much happier in Europe but it is so hard to immigrate to Europe. Never mind the myth that it would be easy for a Canadian to move to the U.K. I wish it were; so I am the best person here to understand the unhappiness of some and wanting more by moving away.

I thought it was relatively easy to emigrate from Canada to France, especially from Quebec.. I can only assume I am wrong. I did think there was a special treaty between Quebec and France.

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Peder Rice

Doofy, I simply cannot understand your take on Islam, believing it to be fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.

I have never met a radical Muslim, and yet I see you as a radical. Interesting, no?

It's simply because he doesn't know anything about Islam. He is describing a fiction that exists only in his head - or many people's heads - and such is the fear of it that has been instilled, he cannot approach the reality to check it.

Too afraid.

PS - this is not to say there is not a threat from 'Islamism', just that people with this view do not know what it is. When it hits them (again) they will be unprepared (again) because they are too busy boxing with shadows.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Peder Rice

Doofy, I simply cannot understand your take on Islam, believing it to be fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.

Go read the koran. Go look at the history of former Christian countries which are now islamic.
Or just take a look around you.

You need to understand that islam is exactly like a cancer, hell bent on World-domination. All of the violent events that you see between islam and everyone else are essentially territorial battles - like the cancer growth fighting for a little more space, a little more territory to call its own.

Originally Posted by Peder Rice

I have never met a radical Muslim,

Come visit Europe. They're all over the place.

Originally Posted by Peder Rice

and yet I see you as a radical. Interesting, no?

I'm only radical in that I want to be left alone to enjoy my own culture (for example, flying the flag of my own country in my own country) without some idiot complaining about it and/or making laws against it. It's getting harder and harder to do that.

[Monique]

It is not Islam really; it is the fact that many immigrants refuse to make the effort to integrate themselves into the new society they now live in.

Many French people are poor to very poor; you do not see them trying to shoot police officer or burning their neighbourhood. They would demonstrate, go on strike...

You do not have to burn down your neighbourhood like these people are doing right now. Just make an effort to integrate yourself into the society you live in. I do not understand why it is so hard. France is a great country and full of possibilities and it is not by staying home and whine that they would succeed in having a descent life.

I do not say this often but if they are not happy and have no desire to make any efforts to ameliorate their situations or any desire to integrate themselves, they should go back to wherever they are from; that does not mean they do not have the right to speak their minds but if they want France to become another middle east country they are in the wrong place.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

It's simply because he doesn't know anything about Islam. He is describing a fiction that exists only in his head - or many people's heads - and such is the fear of it that has been instilled, he cannot approach the reality to check it.

You appear to be under the illusion that my attitude towards islam is a result of the "recent islamophobia" after 9/11.

I rather think it's more to do with years of research which started on December 21st 1988 when one of your "brothers" blew a friend of mine out of the sky.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Go read the koran. Go look at the history of former Christian countries which are now islamic.
Or just take a look around you.

You need to understand that islam is exactly like a cancer, hell bent on World-domination. All of the violent events that you see between islam and everyone else are essentially territorial battles - like the cancer growth fighting for a little more space, a little more territory to call its own.



Come visit Europe. They're all over the place.



I'm only radical in that I want to be left alone to enjoy my own culture (for example, flying the flag of my own country in my own country) without some idiot complaining about it and/or making laws against it. It's getting harder and harder to do that.

Many people who do not know any Christians (I am assuming the poster regards himself as one although I have met others who actually are and there is an irreconcilable difference) would conclude that Christianity is a religion of hate from such inane and ill-thought through ramblings.

I would say that if anyone reading these chilling posts is of that mind then investigate Christianity. Jesus is the antithesis of this attitude - in fact he came to free us from it.

I am not a Christian but having lived in the ME I often attended Mass at beautiful old churches where Muslims and Christians have worshipped together for centuries. Afterwards we would often engage in lively theological debate and I will never forget my Christian brothers from who, I learnt a lot about many things, I was a hater then too.

But there is more to Islam and Christianity than the haters. If you remember that and don't allow them to sow discord it is enough.

What is from God is love. What is hate is not from God.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

You appear to be under the illusion that my attitude towards islam is a result of the "recent islamophobia" after 9/11.

I rather think it's more to do with years of research which started on December 21st 1988 when one of your "brothers" blew a friend of mine out of the sky.

As it happens, I had a similar situation with a friend at Victoria Station courtesy of the IRA but I won't trade tragedies with you.

I am sorry for your loss but killing and hate is the province of killers and haters. It is not the province of any one sectarian group. It can come from anywhere. Imo, the only thing that should be hated is hatred itself.

My objection to your pov is that you have expanded it into areas where it is clearly not applicable. You say 'Islam' and 'Muslims'.

If you even said 'Islamists'. 'radical terrorists' or 'sect x', I would probably agree with you. But you don't. You say ALL. That is where you have gone wrong - just like when they say 'ALL the West'.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

Many people who do not know any Christians (I am assuming the poster regards himself as one although I have met others who actually are and there is an irreconcilable difference) would conclude that Christianity is a religion of hate from such inane and ill-thought through ramblings.

Pure FUD.

Originally Posted by segovius

I would say that if anyone reading these chilling posts is of that mind then investigate Christianity. Jesus is the antithesis of this attitude - in fact he came to free us from it.

What attitude? I'm merely stating facts. But then this is your way, isn't it? If someone states a fact, you try and tar them with negative attributes. This is how you operate, it's why the islamic council of Britain pushes for "religious hatred" laws to stifle debate about your invasion.

[Monique]

If it would be only a question of religion that would not be so bad but it is a question that the Muslims refuse to be a part of the society they want to join in. Why not make an effort to become French instead of being Muslim as a nationality. Islam is a religion and should remain so.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Monique

If it would be only a question of religion that would not be so bad but it is a question that the Muslims refuse to be a part of the society they want to join in. Why not make an effort to become French instead of being Muslim as a nationality. Islam is a religion and should remain so.

What is 'French' and why should they become it?

Why should who you are be determined by where you live?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

My objection to your pov is that you have expanded it into areas where it is clearly not applicable. You say 'Islam' and 'Muslims'.

If you even said 'Islamists'. 'radical terrorists' or 'sect x', I would probably agree with you. But you don't. You say ALL. That is where you have gone wrong - just like when they say 'ALL the West'.

Don't confuse my dislike of islamic terrorists with my dislike of islam. I don't like islamic terrorists because they're bastards. I don't like islam because it's an aggressively expansionist religion which is currently attempting to encroach on my culture (and you're surely not going to deny that one of your religion's goals is to eliminate the Dar al-Harb).

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Pure FUD.

What attitude? I'm merely stating facts. But then this is your way, isn't it? If someone states a fact, you try and tar them with negative attributes. This is how you operate, it's why the islamic council of Britain pushes for "religious hatred" laws to stifle debate about your invasion.

The attitude you are displaying in this post and in the one I quoted above where I said (and you ignored) that you are extrapolating to ALL Muslims the misdeeds of others.

In any event you are wrong by your own religion where you are enjoined to 'Love your Enemies'. Clearly you are not doing this.

But I am unclear about these 'facts' that you are stating. Why don't you state one and let's examine it to see if it is indeed a 'fact' and if it is, what it means?

If you can't do this then I wouldn't really talk about facts or anything else - just say you hate X because you do. It is far more honest and really, hate needs no justification - you are only speaking to yourself.

It's ok to hate - everyone is doing it.

[capuchin]

You know, I'd like to share a little truth I've discovered in my many years upon this orb that spins beneath the heavens celestial:

People are crazy.

Islam is not incompatible with western society, any more than any other religion/set of beliefs. There's plenty of talk in the old testament about the terrible punishments awaiting dirty heathens and their false idols, yet most folks don't run around haphazard lopping heads off Sikhs et al. That said, there are minorities in every religious group who are prone to being competely bat-sh*t crazy and willfully performing said acts of mayhem.

I'm not the man in the street in France, but I'm willing to lay good money that a large percentage of the rioters are people with diverging agendas. WTO here in Seattle was an excellent example - while some people were rioting to protest the WTO, some were in arms about saving the turtles, whales, protesting military bases in Idaho, along with a healthy number of locals with nothing to do except have a good time being part of something. My favorite moment came when rioters protesting starbucks started to vandalize a store, until they were repelled and attacked by other rioters who loved lattes. True story.

Not every rioter had a legitimate agenda during the LA riots. Quite a lot just wanted a new TV.

The muslims are not ticking time-bombs that have to be defused/deported, any more than any other minority. People motivated to advance, progress and improve are usually too busy or tired to run around burning cars. Endemic racism/intolerance only exacerbates the situation.

[Y3a]

All you have to do is look at the 'civilization' that Muslims have created for themselves. Women are property, technology is foreign, and violence is everywhere. They have the MEANS for a rich and peaceful society by spreading the wealth and improving their countries from oil, but instead they are funding whabist(sp) schools, and paying terrorists to destabilize the west. Their 'religion' seems so good, to those people in parts of the world with no schooling, and no wealth, so pockets of them spring up all over the 3rd world. The danger comes from the ignorance, and violence and intolerence that Muslims display daily. It is the Muslims that need the education, and the self control to BE civilized, but both seem to be against their religion. IMHO

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

The attitude you are displaying in this post and in the one I quoted above where I said (and you ignored) that you are extrapolating to ALL Muslims the misdeeds of others.

In any event you are wrong by your own religion where you are enjoined to 'Love your Enemies'. Clearly you are not doing this.

Again with the FUD. I dislike islam, not muslims. In the same way that I dislike Windows but don't dislike the poor saps who've been suckered into using it.

Originally Posted by segovius

But I am unclear about these 'facts' that you are stating. Why don't you state one and let's examine it to see if it is indeed a 'fact' and if it is, what it means?

OK, deny that your religion doesn't wish to eliminate the Dar al-Harb.

Originally Posted by segovius

If you can't do this then I wouldn't really talk about facts or anything else - just say you hate X because you do. It is far more honest and really, hate needs no justification - you are only speaking to yourself.

It's ok to hate - everyone is doing it.

Here's another fact: The only person to mention "hate" in this thread up until now has been you. Seems like you're either doing the old smoke and mirrors FUD or you're projecting.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by capuchin

Islam is not incompatible with western society, any more than any other religion/set of beliefs.

Bzzzt. Wrong. Western society tends towards secularism. islamic society requires a theocracy. If you think you're going to keep the separation of church and state once there's enough muslim immigrants in your country to vote you down, you're living in a dream world.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Fact: This violence in France was caused by muslims.
Fact: The violence a couple of weeks back in England was caused by muslims.

By Muslims, not by Islam. You seem to recognize that the two are not the same thing in most cases, so why not this?

See that? No Buddhists or Hindus or Sikhs starting anything.

Buddhism and Hinduism have both had strong militant factions in the past. Granted, this past was very distant indeed, and nowadays Buddhism and Hinduism are perhaps two of the last religions anyone would suspect of possessing a militant wing, but they both went through it. Come to think of it, most religions seem to go through exactly this sort of thing when they hit about 1000-1500 years of age, almost like some kind of adolescent phase. Christianity and Judaism did it too. Islam, for its part, is right on schedule.

I am in no way trying to support what these people are doing. I'm not even trying to say that this 'adolescent phase' is a good thing; I don't think it is. I'm not even trying to explain what they're doing; I don't have the answers for that, assuming they even exist. All I'm pointing out is that it fits a very old and very well established pattern.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Bzzzt. Wrong. Western society tends towards secularism. islamic society requires a theocracy.

The ideal societies put forth by almost any religion requires some kind of a theocracy. Sometimes the rule is by a religious government, as with Judaism, and sometimes it's by an actual deity or analogous emissary, as with Christianity. Islam is little different as far as that is concerned.

The French committed an abominable breach of human rights with the headscarf ban. Religion is, and should be, a way of life for its adherents, and to censor harmless outward expression of that way of life is inexcusable. If France doesn't want to tolerate certain religions and the way the people express their faith, that is its prerogative, but it should not pretend to believe in freedom of religion at the same time that it violates such freedom. That's just hypocrisy. Just as you don't have freedom of speech if you can only say some things, you don't have freedom of religion if you can only follow some practices.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Y3a

All you have to do is look at the 'civilization' that Muslims have created for themselves. Women are property, technology is foreign, and violence is everywhere. They have the MEANS for a rich and peaceful society by spreading the wealth and improving their countries from oil, but instead they are funding whabist(sp) schools, and paying terrorists to destabilize the west. Their 'religion' seems so good, to those people in parts of the world with no schooling, and no wealth, so pockets of them spring up all over the 3rd world. The danger comes from the ignorance, and violence and intolerence that Muslims display daily. It is the Muslims that need the education, and the self control to BE civilized, but both seem to be against their religion. IMHO

Yeah. How dare they create a conservative society based on their religious values. America won't stand for that sort of malarky since, as everyone knows, we're a bastion of liberalism and secularism!

Islam is the new Christianity. Terrorism is the new Inquisition. This is nothing new, it's exactly the same thing that's been going on for thousands of years.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Millennium

The ideal societies put forth by almost any religion requires some kind of a theocracy. Sometimes the rule is by a religious government, as with Judaism, and sometimes it's by an actual deity or analogous emissary, as with Christianity. Islam is little different as far as that is concerned.

I disagree. Christianity, for example, doesn't require a theocracy - this is the reason why you have separation of church and state in the US... ...you have free choice. Islam absolutely requires a theocracy - with no free choice for those under its rule. Try being a Hindu in any western society and see what happens - nothing. Try being a Hindu in Saudi and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Millennium

The French committed an abominable breach of human rights with the headscarf ban. Religion is, and should be, a way of life for its adherents, and to censor harmless outward expression of that way of life is inexcusable. If France doesn't want to tolerate certain religions and the way the people express their faith, that is its prerogative, but it should not pretend to believe in freedom of religion at the same time that it violates such freedom.

"Headscarf ban"? "Doesn't want to tolerate certain religions"?
You're making it sound like they didn't ban every form of outward religious expression by adherents of every religion.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I disagree. Christianity, for example, doesn't require a theocracy - this is the reason why you have separation of church and state in the US... ...you have free choice. Islam absolutely requires a theocracy - with no free choice for those under its rule. Try being a Hindu in any western society and see what happens - nothing. Try being a Hindu in Saudi and see what happens.

And yet there are muslims who manage to live just fine in both secular and Christian countries. Ye gods!

Neither Christianity nor Islam requires a theocracy. However both strive towards that goal anyway.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Millennium

The French committed an abominable breach of human rights with the headscarf ban.

WHAT?!

This is something I would really like to hear an explaination about, for this is quite a statement. "abominable breach of human rights" .. how? If you don't mind me asking.

cheers

W-Y

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

And yet there are muslims who manage to live just fine in both secular and Christian countries. Ye gods!

There are Christian countries? Where's that then?

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Neither Christianity nor Islam requires a theocracy. However both strive towards that goal anyway.

No. Christianity doesn't strive towards a theocracy. It might strive towards a society based on Christian values, but it doesn't strive towards creating theocratic government.

[Monique]

It is not a ban everywhere just on school property; if you do not want the schools to ban it we should force young Muslim girls to say our father or a Jewish prayer. If we say no religion on school ground we say no religion at all and they were absolutly right to ban it; it gives those young girls an option that they would not have elsewhere.

They can wear it anywhere else. You are part of a group or you are not. Her parents can go back to a Muslim country and continue to exploit women but in France the law says that women and men are equal and that you do not at any time practice your religion in public institutions; as when you are in the army you wear the uniforms they tell you to wear or you just get out.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Islam is the new Christianity. Terrorism is the new Inquisition.

On both accounts I disagree. Islam is what it is and may be in an adolescent phase like Christianity went through between 1000 and 1400 AD but that is where the similarities end. As for terrorism being equaled to inquisition, that is even more far fetched. For starters, there is no "inquisition" but many inquisitions spread over centuries. I do think your statement goes beyond simplification all the way to misunderstanding of history. The reasons behind each event and institution makes all the difference. Else the current mess in Iraq is the gift of democracy to the Iraqi people from the US, not a fight for resources and control without the slightest regard to the Iraqis as it more or less is. Reasons for events are even more important than the events themselves. As history moves further away from us in time this is harder to see. Nevertheless that is how it is.

You would have hit closer to the mark by comparing the Crusades and terrorism today, but still they don't compare very well.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Doofy

"Headscarf ban"? "Doesn't want to tolerate certain religions"?
You're making it sound like they didn't ban every form of outward religious expression by adherents of every religion.

Not to mention headscarfs have little to do with Islam as a religious expression. Headscarfs are in fact optional and are not a mandatory expression of Islam. Much like wearing a cross around your neck is not a mandatory expression of Christianity although it is quite populare among Christians.

There is a complete ban of *all* religious items in French public schools as well as any sorts of gang-related items (headscarfs can fall under that as well).

Regardless, I am not seeing any human rights being infringed. The students can wear their headscarfs anywhere else than in public schools. This is France today. I can tell you I am not happy with this, since I am a devout Catholic and I think it would be good for a traditionally Catholic country like France to allow the expression of that faith (and others) but it is their law, and I and those who share my religion abide it. And have for centuries. So should other religions and their members abide it. Nobody said anything about liking it, but there you go.

cheers

W-Y

[Y3a]

<<NonHuman posted: Yeah. How dare they create a conservative society based on their religious values. America won't stand for that sort of malarky since, as everyone knows, we're a bastion of liberalism and secularism! >>

Religious values like women being property?

"W" being voted in for his second term kind of makes your comment about "bastion of liberalism" off base too.

That must be some school system you liberals in CA have.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy

There are Christian countries? Where's that then?

Ever heard of the Church of England? There are a number of countries in Europe where Christianity is the official state religion. I'm not sure, but I suspect the same is true of Latin America.

No. Christianity doesn't strive towards a theocracy. It might strive towards a society based on Christian values, but it doesn't strive towards creating theocratic government.

If a society is based on Christian values how is it not a theocracy? If religion plays a part in the legislative and especially judicial processes, that's theocracy to some extent. There are certainly plenty of Christians in the US that would love to see the US, and every other country, turn into a Christian theocracy. The reason you don't see Christian terrorists as commonly as Muslim ones is that Christianity has already established itself as the dominant world religion.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Y3a

<<NonHuman posted: Yeah. How dare they create a conservative society based on their religious values. America won't stand for that sort of malarky since, as everyone knows, we're a bastion of liberalism and secularism! >>

Religious values like women being property?

"W" being voted in for his second term kind of makes your comment about "bastion of liberalism" off base too.

That must be some school system you liberals in CA have.

Ever heard of sarcasm?

Women being property can be a religious value if it's taught in the context of religion. So can slavery, mutilations, and summary executions to name a few formerly Christian values (as well as women being property).

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

On both accounts I disagree. Islam is what it is and may be in an adolescent phase like Christianity went through between 1000 and 1400 AD but that is where the similarities end. As for terrorism being equaled to inquisition, that is even more far fetched. For starters, there is no "inquisition" but many inquisitions spread over centuries. I do think your statement goes beyond simplification all the way to misunderstanding of history. The reasons behind each event and institution makes all the difference. Else the current mess in Iraq is the gift of democracy to the Iraqi people from the US, not a fight for resources and control without the slightest regard to the Iraqis as it more or less is. Reasons for events are even more important than the events themselves. As history moves further away from us in time this is harder to see. Nevertheless that is how it is.

You would have hit closer to the mark by comparing the Crusades and terrorism today, but still they don't compare very well.

cheers

W-Y

What I meant was that Christianity was once the upstart young religion with fanatical followers who were determined to spread their 'truth' around the world. This perfectly describes the oft-quoted 'radical Islamists'. When Christianity was doing this the current leaders of the world said the same things about the Christians that many Christians are now saying about Muslims. Christianity, of course, succeeded and took over the world exerting its influence in many forms over the various heathens and apostates, most of which were along the lines of torture and death called, at various times, crusades, inquisitions, and whatnot. Most of the things that 'radical Islamists' are doing now to wipe out the infidels are the same things that Christians were doing before to wipe out the heathens, albeit with more sophisticated technology.