[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

On both accounts I disagree. Islam is what it is and may be in an adolescent phase like Christianity went through between 1000 and 1400 AD but that is where the similarities end. As for terrorism being equaled to inquisition, that is even more far fetched. For starters, there is no "inquisition" but many inquisitions spread over centuries. I do think your statement goes beyond simplification all the way to misunderstanding of history. The reasons behind each event and institution makes all the difference. Else the current mess in Iraq is the gift of democracy to the Iraqi people from the US, not a fight for resources and control without the slightest regard to the Iraqis as it more or less is. Reasons for events are even more important than the events themselves. As history moves further away from us in time this is harder to see. Nevertheless that is how it is.

You would have hit closer to the mark by comparing the Crusades and terrorism today, but still they don't compare very well.

cheers

W-Y

What I meant was that Christianity was once the upstart young religion with fanatical followers who were determined to spread their 'truth' around the world. This perfectly describes the oft-quoted 'radical Islamists'. When Christianity was doing this the current leaders of the world said the same things about the Christians that many Christians are now saying about Muslims. Christianity, of course, succeeded and took over the world exerting its influence in many forms over the various heathens and apostates, most of which were along the lines of torture and death called, at various times, crusades, inquisitions, and whatnot. Most of the things that 'radical Islamists' are doing now to wipe out the infidels are the same things that Christians were doing before to wipe out the heathens, albeit with more sophisticated technology.

[Monique]

Islam is not a young religion it is almost as old as Christianity.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Doofy

There are Christian countries? Where's that then?

Iceland and the Vatican come to mind.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Iceland and the Vatican come to mind.

Christianity (Lutherian) is the state religion in Norway. Since 1978 Spain has no official state religion, although Catholicism is recognized.

cheers

W-Y

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Monique

Islam is not a young religion it is almost as old as Christianity.

Islam is about 1400 years old, so about 500-600 years younger than Christianity. What was Christianity doing 500-600 years ago? Going through a violent period of expansionism and righteous indignation.

Islam is (I think) the youngest of the major world religions, despite being the second largest.

[mojo2]

Imagine yourself having an invisible twin. This twin stands behind you and constantly pushes you. You love your twin because he is just like you. But he constantly gets you in trouble.

In crowded subways he pushes you into little children and old ladies. Your co-workers know not to get in crowded elevators with you because people start fights with you when you push them. But it's not really YOU doing the pushing. It's your invisible twin that stands behind you.

No one seems to understand that and you feel very beleaguered because they always blame YOU and not your invisible twin.

It has gotten to the point where people see you and they immediately become hostile toward you and sometimes they try to do you physical harm.

You ask innocently, "WHAT DID I DO???"

Well, the other day your invisible twin pushed you and you pushed a whole family off of a Metro platform and into the path of a speeding train. And all five members of the family were killed.

You felt sorry for them all, but it wasn't YOUR fault!

Poor you. Poor, poor, you.

Excuse my quoting myself.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Excuse my quoting myself.

Didn't make sense to you either, huh?

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Excuse my quoting myself.

At first you thought perhaps it was your mind playing tricks. You would go the corner store and once in a while, not all the time for sure, but enough, you would carefully place the sugar on the counter anticipating that most English of all beverages that ritually required the refined white crystal.

"Packet of cigarettes please" you ask the smiling brunette who looks so much like Beatrice Dalle and wonder, fleetingly,if perhaps in another world she might consent to a night of illicit passion when 'Rita's One Stop Shop' closed it's doors on the sullen piss-soaked streets that now seem so redolent of England as Madame George and roses must have seemed to Rita's grandmother - whoever she was.

You wake from your reverie. "Here you go love" Beatrice smiles and heaves a 5kg sack of potatoes onto the counter "that'll be 3 quid darling".

"No, I'm sorry - I meant Bensons, 20 will do".

"There you go - health warning inside..." she seems a little tetchy now and somehow, for some uncharted reason you buy the potatoes and sheepishly dispose of them in one of the last remaining rubbish-bins on the street outside.

The incident puzzled you and for some reason, although you tried to push it to the back of your mind, it seemed to plant a noxious seed, that sat festering and sprouting in some dark place of your psyche. At nights, alone in the frigid mortality of the barren morning hours you could almost feel it plotting and laughing....at you perhaps? You spend more time wondering than perhaps you know you should....

The next day, you feel much better and buy night the incident is pushed beneath the surface with only the occasional bubble popping and rippling on the languid skein of your consciousness. You are well enough to go to the pub and at around eight you realize you have no cigarettes....

Your mate Stevie across the bar winks and laughs and after a bit of half-assed banter - just enough to justify the request - you hit him for a ciggie and of he reaches to his left-hand pocket.

Momentarily, you catch a flash of stunning brown hair and the movement of a breast in silhouette against a fake Guinness sign...not Dalle....you sigh and turn to the pack of Gauloises you know that Eddie will have pushed towards you across the fake wood veneer of the bar. But there is nothing there....nothing except a solitary King Edward potato......

It was in the subsequent days that you first noticed the whispering. And then the pointing....

You tried one more time at Rita's but the brunette - now hideously redolent of the crone in Snow White and nothing like Beatrice at all - had swung a whole sack of small red bakers and leaned nearly into your face shouting "are you going to smoke these or not ?????"

You didn't go out much after that, preferring to take refuge in the soporific effect of the TV-drug.

It was probably the government debate on potato -sponsorship and what should be done about whether potato smoking should be banned in public that saw you over the edge. You couldn't watch after that and though for a while you sought distraction on the World Wide Web you soon found your way to forums where bitter opponents engaged in endless disputes about whether freedom to smoke potatoes was justifiable when it was known that potatoes were such a killer.......

Occasionally you ventured a post....perhaps to say that a cigarette was a cylindrical object filled with tobacco or to hint that maybe it was not potatoes that were the real cause of cancer but largely you were ignored as a harmless nut. You found yourself tearing pages from a Bible and rolling them into eccentric tubes, sometimes stuffed with basil from your window-box....

And so it continued.....until that fateful day when sullenly awake at dawn, you heard the splintering of the front door and the blur of black-shirted thugs rushing past like a breeze of freedom.

There would be no charge, no trial, no appeal...for after all there was no crime. In a way it felt good to just disappear from the map.

They had bundled you into a van with blacked out windows and the neanderthal-faced Aryan who eyed you like a hungry dog might do a bone, leant forward with a half-cackle and grabbed your hand pressing something small and long into the palm - "you'll be needing a smoke mate....this'll be your last chance......"

You rise your handcuffed wrist to eye-level and find yourself face to face with a miniature Maris Piper Roasting potato.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by Peder Rice

Doofy, I simply cannot understand your take on Islam, believing it to be fundamentally incompatible with Christianity.

I have never met a radical Muslim, and yet I see you as a radical. Interesting, no?

Ever heard of radical jews?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Judaism is not a race.
Dislike of Jews is not a "phobia".

No. Judaism is the cancer which is sweeping Europe and robbing people of the ability to think and be civilised.

Agreed. Our countries need saving from this cancer.

Just so you know where your disgusting rhetoric comes from.

Heil Hitler, Sherwin.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by segovius

At first you thought perhaps it was your mind playing tricks. You would go the corner store and once in a while, not all the time for sure, but enough, you would carefully place the sugar on the counter anticipating that most English of all beverages that ritually required the refined white crystal.

"Packet of cigarettes please" you ask the smiling brunette who looks so much like Beatrice Dalle and wonder, fleetingly,if perhaps in another world she might consent to a night of illicit passion when 'Rita's One Stop Shop' closed it's doors on the sullen piss-soaked streets that now seem so redolent of England as Madame George and roses must have seemed to Rita's grandmother - whoever she was.

You wake from your reverie. "Here you go love" Beatrice smiles and heaves a 5kg sack of potatoes onto the counter "that'll be 3 quid darling".

"No, I'm sorry - I meant Bensons, 20 will do".

"There you go - health warning inside..." she seems a little tetchy now and somehow, for some uncharted reason you buy the potatoes and sheepishly dispose of them in one of the last remaining rubbish-bins on the street outside.

The incident puzzled you and for some reason, although you tried to push it to the back of your mind, it seemed to plant a noxious seed, that sat festering and sprouting in some dark place of your psyche. At nights, alone in the frigid mortality of the barren morning hours you could almost feel it plotting and laughing....at you perhaps? You spend more time wondering than perhaps you know you should....

The next day, you feel much better and buy night the incident is pushed beneath the surface with only the occasional bubble popping and rippling on the languid skein of your consciousness. You are well enough to go to the pub and at around eight you realize you have no cigarettes....

Your mate Stevie across the bar winks and laughs and after a bit of half-assed banter - just enough to justify the request - you hit him for a ciggie and of he reaches to his left-hand pocket.

Momentarily, you catch a flash of stunning brown hair and the movement of a breast in silhouette against a fake Guinness sign...not Dalle....you sigh and turn to the pack of Gauloises you know that Eddie will have pushed towards you across the fake wood veneer of the bar. But there is nothing there....nothing except a solitary King Edward potato......

It was in the subsequent days that you first noticed the whispering. And then the pointing....

You tried one more time at Rita's but the brunette - now hideously redolent of the crone in Snow White and nothing like Beatrice at all - had swung a whole sack of small red bakers and leaned nearly into your face shouting "are you going to smoke these or not ?????"

You didn't go out much after that, preferring to take refuge in the soporific effect of the TV-drug.

It was probably the government debate on potato -sponsorship and what should be done about whether potato smoking should be banned in public that saw you over the edge. You couldn't watch after that and though for a while you sought distraction on the World Wide Web you soon found your way to forums where bitter opponents engaged in endless disputes about whether freedom to smoke potatoes was justifiable when it was known that potatoes were such a killer.......

Occasionally you ventured a post....perhaps to say that a cigarette was a cylindrical object filled with tobacco or to hint that maybe it was not potatoes that were the real cause of cancer but largely you were ignored as a harmless nut. You found yourself tearing pages from a Bible and rolling them into eccentric tubes, sometimes stuffed with basil from your window-box....

And so it continued.....until that fateful day when sullenly awake at dawn, you heard the splintering of the front door and the blur of black-shirted thugs rushing past like a breeze of freedom.

There would be no charge, no trial, no appeal...for after all there was no crime. In a way it felt good to just disappear from the map.

They had bundled you into a van with blacked out windows and the neanderthal-faced Aryan who eyed you like a hungry dog might do a bone, leant forward with a half-cackle and grabbed your hand pressing something small and long into the palm - "you'll be needing a smoke mate....this'll be your last chance......"

You rise your handcuffed wrist to eye-level and find yourself face to face with a miniature Maris Piper Roasting potato.

I REALLY liked your story. It evoked images and themes familiar and yet also ushered me into your world. Very nicely done. Thank you.

Your fears vs. our fears.

It's what it's all about.

For those of you unable to understand the Twins' allegory try this.

Muslims are all brothers of the faith. Not even the most accomplished student or careful observer can tell the difference between a radical suicide bombing Muslim and a peaceful Muslim.

Yet, there is a force that pushes all Muslims to spread the faith to all corners of the world. And there is a force pushing some Muslims to kill infidels.

In the face of this aggression which produces fear and fear turns to violence the Muslim world makes excuses. They cry I AM THE OPPRESSED. I AM BEING VICTIMIZED. But the force continues to bring forth aggression, violence, oppression, discrimination and death.

But the invisible force remains and can not be seen and since it can't be seen, it can't be changed. And if it can't be changed it will continue to bring aggression, discrimination, oppression, violence and death.

And all of the learned Muslims, the peace loving talented, intelligent, innocent beautiful and handsome Muslims, the strong and brave and noble Muslims are made to pay the price.

Here is a clue.

The non-Muslim world would just as soon warmly embrace you. Or, AT LEAST, leave you alone in peace to do as you pleased if that force didn't PUSH you to take over and kill.

You will say it is them not us.

No, it IS YOU, or I should say, YOUR OPPORTUNITY.

You must address this force that pushes you to be reviled and suspected and feared and made outcasts by the non-Muslim world.

"But there is nothing I can do about the violent radicals."

Then, you have announced that you are powerless to save this world from the ending that force propels us toward.

So, there will continue to be knocks on the door at night. There will continue to be riots across the globe. There will continue to be the stand-off and the fear and suspicion and hatred in Israel and Palestine. There will continue to be innocents killed in Iraq and elsewhere.

All because of this invisible force that makes SOME of you act like jerks and kill infidels.

Segovius, you are a bright fellow.

Are you powerless to stop the pushing that makes your brothers cause ALL Muslims to be feared and hated?

If so, then poor you. Poor, poor you.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by analogika

Just so you know where your disgusting rhetoric comes from.

Heil Hitler, Sherwin.

You see a lot, analogika. But are you
strong enough to point that high-powered
perception at yourself? How about it...?
Look at yourself and write down the truth.

Or maybe you're afraid to.

Isn't there a good reason to fear the insistent unstoppable spread of Islam? Isn't there a good reason for non-Muslims to worry that one out of maybe a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand Muslims may be a serial killer? Or should I say, suicide terrorist, or just someone who will kill infidels when and where possible?

That is the cause of all this. Face it.

Or maybe you're afraid to.

[nonhuman]

I understand the general idea of what you're saying, but you really don't seem to have any point other than to pat yourself on the back and wallow in your own supposed philosophical superiority and ridiculous metaphors.

Do you even try to explore different ideas and points of view?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika

Just so you know where your disgusting rhetoric comes from.

Heil Hitler, Sherwin.

And that's the problem, Spheric (oooh. Using old retired nicks gives a sense of authority, doesn't it? I like that. Will have to remember to do it more often). You're so caught up in not being able to face the truth due to Europe's shady past that you can't see what the future holds in store. In your rush to completely disassociate yourself from the past, you've run so far the other way that you've lost your sense of reason, your ability to be truly objective.
So I'll say that again:

That. Is. The. Problem.

And you are the problem.

Did you not notice that islam was on the side of Hitler during WW2? Do you not notice the Jews in Saudi forced to wear orange overalls with the Star of David on them? Remind you of anything? Do you not notice the wars and strife at every territorial extremity of the muslim world? Do you not wonder why this happens? Any ideas which religion it is which wants to wipe Israel off the map? The Buddhists? The Hindus? The Sikhs? Any ideas how many people Buddhist terrorists have killed in the name of their religion in the last 4 years?

It's like this. It's pre-WW2. You're the guy saying "Hitler is a good leader, it's all good, not going to be a problem, we'll never have another war so soon after the last one". I'm the guy saying that there's gonna be a problem. Has Germany learnt nothing?

[mojo2]

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html

The Arab/Muslim Nazi Connection
Bosnian Moslems recruited the Nazi SS by 
Yasser Arafat's 'Uncle'


A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops - a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.

Arab leaders and media outlets have long been addicted to comparing Israel to the Nazi regime, while at the same time demeaning the extent of the Holocaust. This obsession with defaming and antagonizing the Jewish people and state was on full display in recent months and reached a crescendo – or rather nadir – the day before Pope John Paul II visited the Temple Mount during his Holy Land pilgrimage. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Ekrima Sabri, just hours before hosting the Pope, gave a series of press interviews, first telling the AP: "The figure of 6 million Jews killed during the Holocaust is exaggerated and is used by the Israelis to gain international support… It’s not my problem. Muslims didn’t do anything on this issue. It’s the doing of Hitler who hated the Jews," asserted the acid-tongued Mufti – a figure appointed by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. "Six million? It was a lot less," Sabri repeated for an Italian newspaper. "It’s not my fault if Hitler hated the Jews. Anyway, they hate them just about everywhere." The Mufti finished the day with Reuters, charging, "We denounce all massacres, but I don’t see why a certain massacre should be used for political gain and blackmail." However, as a matter of record, there was a well-documented, thriving relationship between the Arab/Muslim world and Nazi Germany, with perhaps the most significant figure linking Hitler to the Middle East being none other Sabri’s very own predecessor, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini. Here is a brief review of that dark, overlooked chapter in history.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Isn't there a good reason to fear the insistent unstoppable spread of Islam? Isn't there a good reason for non-Muslims to worry that one out of maybe a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand Muslims may be a serial killer? Or should I say, suicide terrorist, or just someone who will kill infidels when and where possible?

The terrorists aren't actually the problem Moje.
The problem is such:

islam enters a territory via immigration or conversion.
islam then lies in wait while it builds its numbers.
When it has enough numbers, it alters the territory to suit itself.
Everyone else in the territory is expected to either convert, leave, die or accept a kind of slavery. Once this happens, all those human rights which the defenders of islam hold so dear are completely out of the window.

This very process has happened many times in the last century. And the root cause of this behaviour (the concept of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb) is the reason for every conflict in which islam is involved.

Here's a different explanation...

Until the 1980s, attempts to mobilize Muslims all over the world for a jihad in one area of the world (Palestine, Kashmir) were unsuccessful. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a watershed event*, as it revived the concept of participation in jihad to evict an “infidel” occupier from a Muslim country as a “personal duty” (fard ’ein) for every capable Muslim. The basis of this duty derives from the “irreversibility” of Islamic identity both for individual Muslims (thus, capital punishment for “apostates” — e.g., Salman Rushdie) and for Muslim territories. Therefore, any land (Afghanistan, Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain) that had once been under the sway of Islamic law may not revert to control by any other law. In such a case, it becomes the “personal duty” of all Muslims in the land to fight a jihad to liberate it. If they do not succeed, it becomes incumbent on any Muslim in a certain perimeter from that land to join the jihad and so forth. Accordingly, given the number of Muslim lands under “infidel occupation” and the length of time of those occupations, it is argued that it has become a personal duty for all Muslims to join the jihad. This duty — if taken seriously — is no less a religious imperative than the other five pillars of Islam (the statement of belief or shahadah, prayer, fasting, charity, and haj). It becomes a de facto (and in the eyes of some a de jure) sixth pillar; a Muslim who does not perform it will inherit hell.

This isn't a concept just for the terrorists. It's a concept embraced by all muslims. Of course no muslim will ever tell you this until it's too late for you to do anything about it - the less people in a target territory know about this concept, the better, as too many people aware of their plans will cause too much resistance. All one has to do to prove the reality of the situation is to look at how former non-islamic countries became islamic in the 20th century.

* DoofyNote from quote: Since the 1980's the advent of cheap long distance communication (i.e. the Internet) and satellite TV has helped accelerate their efforts.

[Doofy]

Note also, while we're on the islam/Nazi connection... Best selling non-islamic (i.e. excluding koran/hadiths) book in Turkey right now? Mein Kampf.

[NYCFarmboy]

The French are just upset because of that American cat illegally entering France:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=274195

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Note also, while we're on the islam/Nazi connection... Best selling non-islamic (i.e. excluding koran/hadiths) book in Turkey right now? Mein Kampf.

Thank Goodness!

Now they will know why Hitler was crazy!

Good call!

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Don't confuse my dislike of islamic terrorists with my dislike of islam. I don't like islamic terrorists because they're bastards. I don't like islam because it's an aggressively expansionist religion which is currently attempting to encroach on my culture

... just like the Jews tried to take over Germany?

You and mojo can try to incite a riot but it's only unthinking idiots who will follow you.

I fear you have the numbers.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

... just like the Jews tried to take over Germany?

You and mojo can try to incite a riot but it's only unthinking idiots who will follow you.

I fear you have the numbers.

Face Ache, you are not ALWAYS wrong. But here you absolutely are WRONG.

If simply telling the truth, using the wealth of FACTUAL INFORMATION to get people to wake up to what is happening to the poor moderate Muslims is trying to incite a riot, then I would say I am like a civil rights worker in the Southern US in the 1960's and YOU are an advocate for keeping the Negroes oppressed.

Don't you see that the problems the innocent, moderate Muslims face is due to the radicals who are giving Muslims a bad name and a bad reputation. It must be apparent, even to you, that if the Israelis had nothing to fear they wouldn't be as rough as they feel they must be to keep the peace and protect their citizens.

If the US didn't fear the radicals taking control of the oil and using it as a weapon against us we wouldn't be fighting in Iraq.

I'm afraid with attitudes like yours I may have to agree completely with Doofy.

He has opened my eyes.

Being politically correct only empowers Muslim aggression. But an informed populace can take steps to prevent that Muslim aggression from having an effect. Or can it?

I'm now thinking back to my Algerian example. Hmmm.

Maybe I'm wrong. I think I need to study some more. Doof, I'm paying attention.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I'm afraid with attitudes like yours I may have to agree completely with Doofy.

He has opened my eyes.

Being politically correct only empowers Muslim aggression. But an informed populace can take steps to prevent that Muslim aggression from having an effect. Or can it?

I'm now thinking back to my Algerian example. Hmmm.

Maybe I'm wrong. I think I need to study some more. Doof, I'm paying attention.

Doofy has some points where he approaches the truth but I would not try to learn from him if I were you. I don't know if he is a an active racist - though I suspect he is - but certainly his rhetoric is identical with the rhetoric of organized racist rhetoric of structured race-hate groupings.

One can tell this because he makes the same mistakes and uses the same phrases when he understands nothing of them but, and this is the point, uses them in a way which is adapted to the agenda of race hate groups.

You seem to me a sincere and questioning person. Don't catch the cancer from one side or the other - walk the middle path and follow your own mind wherever it takes you. It's the only way.

Re telling the truth - I am all for it. My objection here is that it is not done (and this is what makes me suspect there is another agenda than the truth - and really it can only be racist, or perhaps we need a new term).

For example, you posted above a picture of Nazi troops and the Mufti of Jerusalem. There were links and if you state there were links it is true.

However, you did not do this - you used the photo as supporting evidence that Islam itself as opposed to this one individual or his associates had these links or propensities.

Now this is where things become 'untrue'. And you yourself must admit that this is so for the following reasons:

You do not (and certainly most people do not) post equivalent photos of other figures such as leading Catholic clerics who have Nazi links. I could find far more significant photos than the one you posted if I wished to demean the Church or the Dalai Lama for example.

But I don't . Why? Aren't I supposed to hate Christianity and be an 'evil jihadi'?

I don't because it means nothing. Lot's of people supported the Nazis racist agenda - we have some racists on these very boards who had they been born German in the 20's would have been strapping on the leiderhosen with the best of them and foaming at the mouth about Jews rather than Muslims - and it is the racist agenda.

If a white man racially oppresses a black man and that black man claims all white men are racists he has caught the disease himself.

If I judge the 'Christian' posters on here who are interested in spreading division rather than unity as representative of Christianity and judge the religion accordingly I am wrong. A culture or philosophy is judged by it's highest minds and highest manifestations not the lowest.

There will always be stupid people who think they are thinkers in every religion, office, government department, wherever - it's because they ARE stupid they act this way.

The only way you can maintain your integrity (which I believe you have) is to go to the highest in Islam and judge by that. I can find you Nazism scum and killers from all walsk of life, creeds and races throughout history and it will always be so.

My challenge to you is this: judge by the highest not the lowest. No-one is denying the low is there, Doofy et all have made their points and in some cases (when they get lucky and cut and paste from someone who actually knows something) they do indeed approach facts. So we have now a pretty full picture of the 'lowest' manifestation of Islam.

But what about the highest?

Some will tell you there is no highest. They will tell you that the scum is all there is because the scum is what it is.

They have their reasons for saying this and these may be sinister - but I don't say you should believe me and not them. Don't believe anyone. Simply check everything. Find the highest in Islam and judge it for whatever you decide it to be.

It is also a question of balance, I haven't been here that long but I'm pretty sure that if I trawled through the search function I would not find too much positive about Islam. I would not find a record of the great Islamic philosophers who rank amongst humanity's foremost thinkers, the contribution to art, architecture, poetry, literature and science - is it there? Or would I just find pictures of Muftis and Nazis with none of the exact equivalences from other traditions?

All I say is that if you judge by the lowest then you are being false and will lose something.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by segovius

For example, you posted above a picture of Nazi troops and the Mufti of Jerusalem. There were links and if you state there were links it is true.

However, you did not do this - you used the photo as supporting evidence that Islam itself as opposed to this one individual or his associates had these links or propensities.

Now this is where things become 'untrue'. And you yourself must admit that this is so for the following reasons:

You do not (and certainly most people do not) post equivalent photos of other figures such as leading Catholic clerics who have Nazi links. I could find far more significant photos than the one you posted if I wished to demean the Church or the Dalai Lama for example.

But I don't . Why? Aren't I supposed to hate Christianity and be an 'evil jihadi'?

I do not demean Islam. I present the facts that the followers of Islam know are true yet will not admit. You may bring up the collusion of Catholics with the Nazis but I am not concerned with the past as a way of indicting Islam or Muslims. I bring up the WWII association of the LEADING RELIGIOUS FIGURE OF THE THIRD MOST HOLY MUSLIM CITY who also happened to be the Uncle of Yassir Arafat, with the Nazis to show a pattern of thought consistent with behavior THEN and consistent in behavior now.

If you were to take a catholic priest or anyone else on these boards and put them with members of ANY OTHER ETHNIC OR RELIGIOUS GROUP there would be the average expected kinds of interaction. If you take Devout Muslims and place them with any other ethnic or religious group I have seen enough evidence to believe what Doofy said is true. The Muslims would try to take over and if there were any jews in that group where the devout Muslims were placed the would be a very strong suspicion that the Jews lives would be in danger.

And WHY?

Because of what is written in the Quran.

And if it ISN'T due to what's in the Quran then how in the world would you explain more citations (THREE TIMES THE AMOUNT) than the MacNN server allows to cover JUST the Muslim terrorist attacks on Americans AND non-Americans?

I don't because it means nothing. Lot's of people supported the Nazis racist agenda - we have some racists on these very boards who had they been born German in the 20's would have been strapping on the leiderhosen with the best of them and foaming at the mouth about Jews rather than Muslims - and it is the racist agenda.

If a white man racially oppresses a black man and that black man claims all white men are racists he has caught the disease himself.

If I judge the 'Christian' posters on here who are interested in spreading division rather than unity as representative of Christianity and judge the religion accordingly I am wrong. A culture or philosophy is judged by it's highest minds and highest manifestations not the lowest.

There will always be stupid people who think they are thinkers in every religion, office, government department, wherever - it's because they ARE stupid they act this way.

The only way you can maintain your integrity (which I believe you have) is to go to the highest in Islam and judge by that. I can find you Nazism scum and killers from all walsk of life, creeds and races throughout history and it will always be so.

My challenge to you is this: judge by the highest not the lowest. No-one is denying the low is there, Doofy et all have made their points and in some cases (when they get lucky and cut and paste from someone who actually knows something) they do indeed approach facts. So we have now a pretty full picture of the 'lowest' manifestation of Islam.

But what about the highest?

Some will tell you there is no highest. They will tell you that the scum is all there is because the scum is what it is.

They have their reasons for saying this and these may be sinister - but I don't say you should believe me and not them. Don't believe anyone. Simply check everything. Find the highest in Islam and judge it for whatever you decide it to be.

It is also a question of balance, I haven't been here that long but I'm pretty sure that if I trawled through the search function I would not find too much positive about Islam. I would not find a record of the great Islamic philosophers who rank amongst humanity's foremost thinkers, the contribution to art, architecture, poetry, literature and science - is it there? Or would I just find pictures of Muftis and Nazis with none of the exact equivalences from other traditions?

All I say is that if you judge by the lowest then you are being false and will lose something.

In the past 24 hours I have come to gain a measure of admiration for you. Not because you are Muslim, but because you are a thoughtful guy who has a talent for writing.

However, your powers of analysis have not yet evolved to the point of admiration.

There is a saying that is often (NOT ALWAYS) true.

We teach what we MOST need to learn.

If I were to tell you that in another existence I was a bleeding heart liberal with mush for brains maybe you would believe me. So, what do I do now? I preach right wing politics and admonish you to lead with your brains not your heart. To THINK and feel, not FEEL and feel some more and maybe if you get up on the right side of the bed and aren't too groggy, 'think' a little bit.

Never stop feeling. Don't lose your passion, just demand what YOU YOURSELF were decrying in yesterday's post.

You are on the right track.

There IS brainwashing going on and you sense it and you don't like it. But the OBVIOUS target for your focus is the non-Muslims. Yes. You are correct. We are conditioned and we do follow along and there's all kinds of things we could say about that but in the scheme of things it will all work out because it always does...

But...

Your religion is followed as passionately and diligently as any I have ever seen. EVERYONE in the Muslim religion has orders to spread the faith and gain more land and gain control of more small govt. jurisdictions and attract more new converts. From what I can see the things Doofy look accurate to me and no one here has been able to successfully refute those statements.

If any of you could have, you WOULD have. Does it take von Wrangell and Taliesin to send up the right kind of smokescreen or taqiyya to counter these claims?

In the threads devoted to this matter the facts are presented and those facts are as plain as can be.

islam enters a territory via immigration or conversion.
islam then lies in wait while it builds its numbers.
When it has enough numbers, it alters the territory to suit itself.
Everyone else in the territory is expected to either convert, leave, die or accept a kind of slavery. Once this happens, all those human rights which the defenders of islam hold so dear are completely out of the window.

This very process has happened many times in the last century. And the root cause of this behaviour (the concept of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb) is the reason for every conflict in which islam is involved.

Here's a different explanation...

Quote:
Until the 1980s, attempts to mobilize Muslims all over the world for a jihad in one area of the world (Palestine, Kashmir) were unsuccessful. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a watershed event*, as it revived the concept of participation in jihad to evict an “infidel” occupier from a Muslim country as a “personal duty” (fard ’ein) for every capable Muslim. The basis of this duty derives from the “irreversibility” of Islamic identity both for individual Muslims (thus, capital punishment for “apostates” — e.g., Salman Rushdie) and for Muslim territories. Therefore, any land (Afghanistan, Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain) that had once been under the sway of Islamic law may not revert to control by any other law. In such a case, it becomes the “personal duty” of all Muslims in the land to fight a jihad to liberate it. If they do not succeed, it becomes incumbent on any Muslim in a certain perimeter from that land to join the jihad and so forth. Accordingly, given the number of Muslim lands under “infidel occupation” and the length of time of those occupations, it is argued that it has become a personal duty for all Muslims to join the jihad. This duty — if taken seriously — is no less a religious imperative than the other five pillars of Islam (the statement of belief or shahadah, prayer, fasting, charity, and haj). It becomes a de facto (and in the eyes of some a de jure) sixth pillar; a Muslim who does not perform it will inherit hell.

This isn't a concept just for the terrorists. It's a concept embraced by all muslims. Of course no muslim will ever tell you this until it's too late for you to do anything about it - the less people in a target territory know about this concept, the better, as too many people aware of their plans will cause too much resistance. All one has to do to prove the reality of the situation is to look at how former non-islamic countries became islamic in the 20th century.

It is true. We both know it.

And the sad thing is if you had know this and could have made the choice as the thinking man you are now, well, who knows what you might have chosen?

But now, you must not risk becoming an apostate because that could have serious results.

So, you are trapped.

Dear readers, THIS is a small sample of what Osama bin Laden wants for the whole WORLD.

He and his followers are constantly on the 'march' and they do not stop. It's almost funny if it didn't result in so much pain and misery. It's like a scary movie where this giant blob is inching slowly toward you but it is so slow you can't get upset or feel threatened by it until it has occupied all of the space in your house and you have no way out. Then it envelops you and you are trapped.

You must convert or die. And once you do you can not change your mind or back out or you will be considered an apostate and apostasy is punishable by death.

All of this is WRITTEN in the Quran. To conquer and to kill.

The violence you see the Muslims bring up as a way of negating or countering these accusations are simply the cases where people who just want to be left alone, find themselves being attacked by the blob and are doing everything they can to keep the blob away from enveloping them or in the case of the terrorist attacks, to keep from being KILLED!

In the Terminator films, the heroes were doing A LOT OF SHOOTING AND BLOWING THINGS UP.

And why? Because they were fighting for their LIVES!!!

So when you look at the situation in israel/Palestine understand that the Muslim WORLD wants all Jews dead and the president of Iran just said it the other day.

They want to wipe Israel OFF THE MAP!

What would YOU do to people who were trying to KILL YOU?

How would you feel if people who were just trying to be FAIR looked at two countries in the M.E. that have been fighting for years and concluded, "all it is is a big drag! They BOTH need to just stop the nonsense and actually, the Palestinians are the VICTIMS here! They deserve some extra consideration. Right? The Israelis are bullies."

I GET IT NOW!

The Muslims have to follow this command in the holy Quran to spread the religion and conquer and don't back track. And in other parts of the Quran it can be interpreted to read that Jews should die and anyone who isn't worshipping like OBL should die.

The things that make Islam and Muslims so feared are the things that the Quran COMMANDS THEM TO DO!

And we infidels aren't the only ones who suffer because of these beliefs.

Good guys like segovius are trapped.

Let this be instructive to you all.

There will be attempts to confuse you by saying these things are crazy statements.

Well, don't just accept my word or Doofy's or vmarks or moki's or some of the other posters here who are old and young, Jewish and Christian and Secular, black and white, American, brit and maybe Israeli, of advanced education and from the school of hard knocks and the public library...

YOU find out for yourself.

It's in the Quran.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by segovius

And we should also remember that this is the country where an extreme-right racist neo-Nazi party came second in the national election.

What are you talking about? Are you referring to the last presidential election? If so, then there is no second place!

Originally Posted by segovius

The same country which trumpets 'attacks on Jews by Muslims) over all the Newspapers but when they are found to be fake and outrageous lies (as has happened on at least three occasions that I personally read in papers there and at least three others I heard of) it barely warrants a mention on the middle page.

What papers do you read? The French newspapers covered the jailing of the woman who faked an attack - on the front page!

Originally Posted by segovius

The same country that has a grand total of zero black or even non-white newsreaders, where ethnic minorities are barely represented at any level int he media (except for sports stars) and where they are it is in the most routine stereotypical manner.

There are non-white newsreaders in France. I don't know where you get that from. And there are many ethnic minorities represented at all levels in the media.

Do you know who Malamine Koné is? How about Jamel Debbouze? Thierry Henry was motivated by events in Spain, the UK and Turkey, to start his campaign against racism in sport; not by events in France.

There's racism everywhere, but I think your characterisation of France as being more racist than anywhere else in Europe is way off course. And that's borne out by the fact that France has the biggest Jewish, Muslim and black populations of any country in Europe.

Originally Posted by segovius

Yep. France is up there with Italy in a two-way tie as the most racist nation in Europe.

This is based on what? Your experience? What about Austria? You know about Haider, right? What about Spain? In my own experience, there is far more racism in Barcelona than in Paris.

[mojo2]

If someone puts on a suit jacket and the suit jacket has a long sharp needle lodged in the pocket and every time he goes to embrace his family and friends he unknowingly jabs them with the sharp point of the needle, would the people around him be wrong to defend themselves from this pain they are certain to receive by an embrace from 'Sharpie?"

Would you say they hate Sharpie or are they just being prudent?

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

If I were to tell you that in another existence I was a bleeding heart liberal with mush for brains maybe you would believe me. So, what do I do now? I preach right wing politics and admonish you to lead with your brains not your heart. To THINK and feel, not FEEL and feel some more and maybe if you get up on the right side of the bed and aren't too groggy, 'think' a little bit.

---- snip -----

You fail to grasp my point. on this occasion I must hammer it home in a simplistic fashion as it is vitally important for us all:

You complain that 'moderate Muslims' do not support the efforts of the so-called 'WOT'. What you have said here is a classic example of why they do not.

Until you start calling a terrorist a terrorist and cease widening the definition to include ALL Muslims you will get no support.

Put it another way - if a radical Islamist extremist comes for me (and they surely would, way before they bothered with you) I will deal with them on my own in my way.

I will not ask you or your kind for help nor will I support your efforts to help. This does not mean I do not need your help or that I oppose it. It means I do not trust the reason that you are doing it.

And the reasons are simple: you refuse to divorce 'terrorists' from 'Islam'. It is YOU and people like you who need to stand up and state loudly that Islam does not equal terrorism and does not support it.

Until you do that you are calling me a terrorist and I view that the same as some extremist calling me an infidel. I will deal with you both on my terms if either of you ever come for me but I won't be joining any propaganda driven bandwagons or be told what to do.

Your religion is followed as passionately and diligently as any I have ever seen. EVERYONE in the Muslim religion has orders to spread the faith and gain more land and gain control of more small govt. jurisdictions and attract more new converts. From what I can see the things Doofy look accurate to me and no one here has been able to successfully refute those statements.

Now that is a lie. I'm sorry but we need to take it to another level. if you lie I will call you on it.

I have received no such orders, engaged in no such activity and know no-one who has.


I repeat, If you have integrity then you need to check your sources. You can choose who to believe, Doofy or me (it seems one of us is lying) but the point is you could investigate and find the facts. If you do not you have no integrity. At the moment you are merely repeating the mere belief and opinion of someone with a suspect agenda. You're free to do that but let's just not call it 'facts' and don't pretend to deal with facts if you go that route.

If any of you could have, you WOULD have. Does it take von Wrangell and Taliesin to send up the right kind of smokescreen or taqiyya to counter these claims?

Again, you prove you know nothing. But worse, you prove you are not prepared to learn more.

Let me ask you this: who does taqiyya apply to?

Is it accepted by the majority of Muslims or is it viewed as a heresy by most? What percentage of Muslims (and who are they) find taqiyya acceptable?

Why was it introduced?

I know for a fact that you know nothing of this subject. The only question is : why do you not ask about it instead of making a fool of yourself when you wheel it out against people who know what about this when you do not?

In the threads devoted to this matter the facts are presented and those facts are as plain as can be.

They are not clear. All I see is lies, half-truths, distortions and wooly thinking. I like a debate as much as the next person but you are taking this to the Kindergarten.

Show me one fact. Choose any one you like form your faves and state it clearly, succinctly and boldly in one sentence here and now. If you are right I will admit it, if you are wrong I will prove it. You must do the same.

That is debate. What you are doing is not. Try it and we can progress.

It is true. We both know it.

See above. no further comment in this regard unless you decide to accept the challenge.

And the sad thing is if you had know this and could have made the choice as the thinking man you are now, well, who knows what you might have chosen?

Do not understand this - seems nonsensical. please expand.

But now, you must not risk becoming an apostate because that could have serious results.

How could I become an apostate in your book? I thought all Muslims were terrorists by definition? If that is so then i must be a terrorist so who will apostasise me - we are all terrorists aren't we?

So, you are trapped.

Reading your posts I do have the creeping feeling of the encroaching walls of the asylum, yes....very perceptive.....

Dear readers, THIS is a small sample of what Osama bin Laden wants for the whole WORLD.

Dear Marge

A big horrible man wants to hurt me. I never see him but he always turns up when I'm naughty and Daddy says he will get me if I don't behave properly. I think he is foreign and wants my freedoms. I don't know what they are but I have this lingering suspicion that if I wasn't constantly kept running scared I might have to sit down and think. It's scary, please help.

He and his followers are constantly on the 'march' and they do not stop. It's almost funny if it didn't result in so much pain and misery. It's like a scary movie where this giant blob is inching slowly toward you but it is so slow you can't get upset or feel threatened by it until it has occupied all of the space in your house and you have no way out. Then it envelops you and you are trapped.

hehehe - I wrote the above before I read this. Unbelievable. You just can't keep up with the reality no matter how surreal you try to make it - they always trupmp you....you just can't make it up.

You must convert or die. And once you do you can not change your mind or back out or you will be considered an apostate and apostasy is punishable by death.

Damn - and my plan was going so well - I'm going to have to kill you now. I would have got away with it too if it hadn't been for those pesky kids......

Could you let me have you address? I want to send you a present - it's an alarm clock so don't worry if you hear ticking.....

All of this is WRITTEN in the Quran. To conquer and to kill.

All of what? You're gibbering........

In the Terminator films, the heroes were doing A LOT OF SHOOTING AND BLOWING THINGS UP. And why? Because they were fighting for their LIVES!!!So when you look at the situation in israel/Palestine understand that the Muslim WORLD wants all Jews dead and the president of Iran just said it the other day.They want to wipe Israel OFF THE MAP![
What would YOU do to people who were trying to KILL YOU?
How would you feel if people who were just trying to be FAIR looked at two countries in the M.E. that have been fighting for years and concluded, "all it is is a big drag! They BOTH need to just stop the nonsense and actually, the Palestinians are the VICTIMS here! They deserve some extra consideration. Right? The Israelis are bullies."I GET IT NOW!
The Muslims have to follow this command in the holy Quran to spread the religion and conquer and don't back track. And in other parts of the Quran it can be interpreted to read that Jews should die and anyone who isn't worshipping like OBL should die.
The things that make Islam and Muslims so feared are the things that the Quran COMMANDS THEM TO DO!And we infidels aren't the only ones who suffer because of these beliefs.Good guys like segovius are trapped.Let this be instructive to you all.There will be attempts to confuse you by saying these things are crazy statements.

Ok, umm err.......it was going so well.....(backs towards door)...of course you're right.....I see that now......

Well, don't just accept my word or Doofy's or vmarks or moki's

Best advice this poster has ever given. Frame it. These moments don't come again.

or some of the other posters here who are old and young, Jewish and Christian and Secular, black and white, American, brit and maybe Israeli, of advanced education and from the school of hard knocks and the public library...

....but not Muslims....they are all terrorists and the ennneemmmymymymmmm bwwwahahahahah

YOU find out for yourself.

Good advice.

Unfortunately you won't find out from the giver of the advice one way or the other. Still, as we say in the East: the canal carries the water even if it does not itself drink.

[Troll]

I find it quite disturbing that some people take such delight in conflicts like the one in Paris over the last 6 nights. Imagine if the kind of glee some of you are expressing at these events, had been expressed by French people over Katrina for example. This weekend I attended a concert given by French artists, the benefits of which went to New Orleans. I also saw a documentary on what the French city of Orleans did for New Orleans after that disaster and I've come to the conclusion that Americans are far more anti-French at the moment that the French are anti-American.

That said, I don't think some of you really understand what the cité are or what goes on in them. These are 20 storey high ghettos. The fire brigade is routinely called in to the cités so that young gang members have someone to attack. The police don't even bother to go into some of these areas because they are considered too dangerous. Every country has places like this. France doesn't miraculously have a solution to poverty and lawlessness.

I'm not sure that some of you are interpreting this correctly as racial violence. I don't think it has much to do at all with racism. And it has nothing to do with the headgear ban (yalmukahs and caps are banned too). The whole reason the clashes have occurred is because the government (under Sarkozy) has decided to stop ignoring the ghettos. A few weeks back, after the murder of a young boy in one of the cité, Sarkozy vowed to restore law and order in these "ungovernable" places. The increased police presence in the areas and the more regular anti-crime and anti-terrorism action over the last little while has necessarily raised tensions.

Last week, two boys aged 15 and 19 scaled the wall of an electrical relay station, touched a transformer and died. The locals say that the boys jumped the wall because they were being chased by the Police. Assuming this is in fact what happened, I do not see that the locals have a valid gripe. The same community that complains that the cops are not protecting their kids from being shot by gangs can't turn around and blame the cops when gang members kill themselves fleeing the cops.

Of course, there are all kinds of people in the cité that are dying to exploit any form of tension. There are the fundamentalists whose message thrives on the clash between Westernism and Islam, there are the crime syndicates and gangs that don't want the Police in the banlieue etc. This coupled with the fact that Sarkozy is a relatively uncompromising decision maker, leads to tension and in France, tension often leads to violence against the Police. That's what's happening here though. Let's just be clear on that. This is not racial clashes like those that happened in the UK a few weeks ago. This is not white vs black or Arab vs. anyone else. This is whites, blacks and Arabs vs. the Police. And comparing this to the LA Riots is just ludicrous. This is nothing near the scale of LA.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Troll

Every country has places like this. France doesn't miraculously have a solution to poverty and lawlessness.

SNIP

And comparing this to the LA Riots is just ludicrous. This is nothing near the scale of LA.

Every country does not have places like this. You would think we would have heard of riots in other countries before now if this were the case.

Moreover, every country is not experiencing what has been happening for six days and counting in this, the Paris Intifada.

http://trans.voila.fr/voila?systran_...e.php?cle=7421

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by segovius

You fail to grasp my point. on this occasion I must hammer it home in a simplistic fashion as it is vitally important for us all:

You complain that 'moderate Muslims' do not support the efforts of the so-called 'WOT'. What you have said here is a classic example of why they do not.

Until you start calling a terrorist a terrorist and cease widening the definition to include ALL Muslims you will get no support.

No, no, no, my young friend. Let me tell you why that is not correct.

The USA had been under attack continuously since BEFORE 1991 by radical jihadists. No uproar from moderate Islam.

The USA made use of it's NATO military forces to bring a halt to the ethnic cleansing OF MUSLIMS by those who wanted the muslims WIPED OFF THE MAP. And where was the applause and combined expression of gratitude from mainstream Islam?

We were attacked throughout the 1990's at home and abroad and the only thing we heard were the cries from the convicted terrorists who shouted their defiance at Americans and American justice or those terrorists and/or their supporters who cried, "What did I do? I am but a poor victim of discrimination and American prejudice."

If mainstream Islam was going to stand up FOR America (yeah, right! ) or AGAINST those that commit terrorism they had 15 years to do it.

And, frankly, your statement strikes me as sounding JUST LIKE SADDAM right before we invaded.

He had figuratively flipped the bird at the UN, The Western world, the USA by violating UN sanction after sanction. We'd sanction him and he'd wipe his ASS with the paper. Then, when he's about run out of time he says, well for ME to do as you wish you MUST do this first.

Nope. Wrong. Sorry. End of story.

President Bush has ALWAYS been respectful and complimentary toward Islam. Do you have ANY FRICKIN IDEA how good he has been to every single Muslim in this country????

When he KNEW who he was talking about he decided NOT to be specific and mention EVEN THE WORD, "MUSLIM." When he referred to the people we were after he called them the EVILDOERS.

And you made fun of him for doing that. Well what do you think would have happened if he hadn't shielded you from blame that way?

You would not be sauntering over to the potato bar bumming smokes. lol And you wouldn't have to worry about a knock on your detention center/internment camp cell door at night.
You'd be in protective custody until things settled down enough that the American people weren't all over any Muslims in a New York minute.

And then there was one more thing you are too young to realize and no one has bothered to brainwash into you yet.

The Patriot Act is such a strict measure because law enforcement needs to find evidence of things like for example, internet chats like these, early on so that terrorist acts can be PREVENTED.

And sometimes these acts are prevented and by NOT allowing Americans to be killed the Dept of Justice may not have the best case to win in court so they just hold the guilty as long as they need to or as long as is possible.

But the Patriot Act is so strict that even the American People are up in arms about it. And THAT is good for moderate Muslims.

WHY?

Because with THAT kind of security the average American feels that enough is being done to catch and/or prevent terrorists and terrorist acts so that THEY won't be tempted to exact VIGILANTE JUSTICE.

The fairness you see in Americans only goes so far and there are many Americans who have reached that point long ago.

If those folks didn't feel the Government was being tough enough on potential terrorists you can bet your ass your main concern wouldn't be what ol mojo was SAYING on the internet! You would be too busy watching over your shoulder.

And excuse me while I wipe the sweat of worry from my brow now that you've assured me that you will be able to say and do just the right thing to save your own butt if and when the bad terrorists come for you.

THAT is exactly what I feared was the case with some of the other posters, but now I see it's all true what Doofy was saying.

You will try to convince us to give the poor Muslims a break, and extra chance, you are being discriminated against and we just don't understand how we are being brainwashed.

But when push comes to shove and we have taken your advice that there is nothing to fear and nothing to worry about, you will give the secret password and flash the high sign and keep on walking.

Well, that's fine.

So, now tell me AGAIN how and why you should be believed and why all Muslims don't bear any responsibility for any of this mess?

Let's see. The aggression and "taking over" thing that all Muslims are supposed to do. Then, there's the hatred for jews and that's for all Muslims to obey. And only SOME Muslims are actively murdering around the globe as they interpret the Quran to order them to do. But all the others help out in their own little ways. Some provide shelter and money and food and camaraderie to the killers. Others provide materials and professional services or use their positions at work to allow or disallow something that will help the terrorists. Sometimes it's people who make excuses for the terrorists or who try to throw up a smoke screen so no one will know what the terrorists are really doing. And sometimes a Muslim gives his or her support by simply saying nothing at all and in that way the non-Muslim will be ignorant of the true knowledge of terrorist activity.

Put it another way - if a radical Islamist extremist comes for me (and they surely would, way before they bothered with you) I will deal with them on my own in my way.

I will not ask you or your kind for help nor will I support your efforts to help. This does not mean I do not need your help or that I oppose it. It means I do not trust the reason that you are doing it.

And the reasons are simple: you refuse to divorce 'terrorists' from 'Islam'. It is YOU and people like you who need to stand up and state loudly that Islam does not equal terrorism and does not support it.

Until you do that you are calling me a terrorist and I view that the same as some extremist calling me an infidel. I will deal with you both on my terms if either of you ever come for me but I won't be joining any propaganda driven bandwagons or be told what to do.

Now that is a lie. I'm sorry but we need to take it to another level. if you lie I will call you on it.

I have received no such orders, engaged in no such activity and know no-one who has.

I repeat, If you have integrity then you need to check your sources. You can choose who to believe, Doofy or me (it seems one of us is lying) but the point is you could investigate and find the facts. If you do not you have no integrity. At the moment you are merely repeating the mere belief and opinion of someone with a suspect agenda. You're free to do that but let's just not call it 'facts' and don't pretend to deal with facts if you go that route.

Again, you prove you know nothing. But worse, you prove you are not prepared to learn more.

Let me ask you this: who does taqiyya apply to?

Is it accepted by the majority of Muslims or is it viewed as a heresy by most? What percentage of Muslims (and who are they) find taqiyya acceptable?

Why was it introduced?

I know for a fact that you know nothing of this subject. The only question is : why do you not ask about it instead of making a fool of yourself when you wheel it out against people who know what about this when you do not?



They are not clear. All I see is lies, half-truths, distortions and wooly thinking. I like a debate as much as the next person but you are taking this to the Kindergarten.

Show me one fact. Choose any one you like form your faves and state it clearly, succinctly and boldly in one sentence here and now. If you are right I will admit it, if you are wrong I will prove it. You must do the same.

That is debate. What you are doing is not. Try it and we can progress.



See above. no further comment in this regard unless you decide to accept the challenge.



Do not understand this - seems nonsensical. please expand.



How could I become an apostate in your book? I thought all Muslims were terrorists by definition? If that is so then i must be a terrorist so who will apostasise me - we are all terrorists aren't we?



Reading your posts I do have the creeping feeling of the encroaching walls of the asylum, yes....very perceptive.....



Dear Marge

A big horrible man wants to hurt me. I never see him but he always turns up when I'm naughty and Daddy says he will get me if I don't behave properly. I think he is foreign and wants my freedoms. I don't know what they are but I have this lingering suspicion that if I wasn't constantly kept running scared I might have to sit down and think. It's scary, please help.



hehehe - I wrote the above before I read this. Unbelievable. You just can't keep up with the reality no matter how surreal you try to make it - they always trupmp you....you just can't make it up.



Damn - and my plan was going so well - I'm going to have to kill you now. I would have got away with it too if it hadn't been for those pesky kids......

Could you let me have you address? I want to send you a present - it's an alarm clock so don't worry if you hear ticking.....



All of what? You're gibbering........



Ok, umm err.......it was going so well.....(backs towards door)...of course you're right.....I see that now......



Best advice this poster has ever given. Frame it. These moments don't come again.



....but not Muslims....they are all terrorists and the ennneemmmymymymmmm bwwwahahahahah



Good advice.

Unfortunately you won't find out from the giver of the advice one way or the other. Still, as we say in the East: the canal carries the water even if it does not itself drink.

I am tired and cranky.

I will postpone this for now and reserve the right to re-think and revise what I have said here. I do not like to post when angry. I am tired and when tired I am quick to anger.

That is all for now.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Every country does not have places like this. You would think we would have heard of riots in other countries before now if this were the case.

You are so right. Such situation never happens elsewhere. Only in France. Never in Iraq, or the U.S. (especially not Los Angeles). Not even in South Africa.

Moreover, every country is not experiencing what has been happening for six days and counting in this

Hmmm... why do you feel compelled to add to the first proposition? I thought It was clear, that you hade made your point already!

, the Paris Intifada.

LOL

I looooove your blog!

Now that you gave a lesson to France, let's make sure you do your moderator work in the Pol. Lounge. You know? The one where you are so discrete except to defend Israel and pinpoint the "Extremist" supporters?

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

No, no, no, my young friend. Let me tell you why that is not correct.

The USA had been under attack continuously since BEFORE 1991 by radical jihadists. No uproar from moderate Islam.

This will be my last post to you as I was wrong about your sincerity, integrity and intelligence and now realize you fly with the Islamophobes because you are an Islamophobe. I always believe in giving people a chance rather than labelling them before I have direct experience and I have spent enough time with you and it is time to move on.

I will let you have as many last words as you require and only post this to point out your many errors and assumptions for those who really do wish to expand their horizons.

Error 1: You say 'young'. I do not know where you get this - probably the same place as you get your 'facts' on Islam - but I have children who may well be older than you. At 21 and 19 they are certainly better informed about the world and open-minded.

Actually...you know what? I really can't be bothered...life is too short and I have better things to do, I'll let someone else carry it on from here if they feel there's any point. I can assure them there isn't.

Good luck. Adios.

[Spliffdaddy]

Conclusion:

The six days of rioting in France have nothing to do with France, its people, or its policies. The Muslims are to blame. Along with whites and blacks. Who, somehow, aren't French because they haven't yet adopted the French culture.

Yep. This is about what I expected.

vmarks, once again, is closest to the truth. And the closer he gets to the truth, the more frantic the 'wrong' side becomes.

Years roll by at MacNN - but some things never change.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

Doofy has some points where he approaches the truth but I would not try to learn from him if I were you. I don't know if he is a an active racist - though I suspect he is - but certainly his rhetoric is identical with the rhetoric of organized racist rhetoric of structured race-hate groupings.

Wow. The usual tired old tar brush eh?

Let me uncover my racism. Promise you won't tell anyone... Here goes: I prefer latin chicks over white chicks! I suppose I'd better go get my jack boots on eh?

Oh. And islam isn't a race. Von Wrangel is a white boy (as white as white can be), yet a muslim. Strange that. Being from Wales chances are you're probably a white boy too.

A few posts ago you asked me to raise a fact about islam which you were going to expose as a sham. Why haven't you exposed it yet? C'mon, it was easy.

Originally Posted by segovius

But I am unclear about these 'facts' that you are stating. Why don't you state one and let's examine it to see if it is indeed a 'fact' and if it is, what it means?

Originally Posted by Doofy

OK, deny that your religion doesn't wish to eliminate the Dar al-Harb

While you're at it (it should be easy because I'm just a lying racist, right?) deny the concept of Dar al-islam.

For the casual viewers, here's the definition of those:
Dar al-Harb - house of war, territories under non-muslim rule. In von Wrangel's location box.
Dar al-islam - house of islam, territories under muslim rule.

The fact that those terms actually exist at all in islam is proof of what I've been saying.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Conclusion:

The six days of rioting in France have nothing to do with France, its people, or its policies. The Muslims are to blame. Along with whites and blacks. Who, somehow, aren't French because they haven't yet adopted the French culture.

Yep. This is about what I expected.

vmarks, once again, is closest to the truth. And the closer he gets to the truth, the more frantic the 'wrong' side becomes.

Sorry Spliffy, I class you as an ally but your blind hatred of the French government has blinkered you into not knowing what you're on about.

For example, you state "The Muslims are to blame. Along with whites and blacks." Do you not realise that most muslims in France are Africans?

[Spliffdaddy]

I don't hate France. Heck, the French are exactly like Americans.

Isn't it odd how much alike everyone seems to be? It's a global thing, being human.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

While you're at it (it should be easy because I'm just a lying racist, right?) deny the concept of Dar al-islam.

For the casual viewers, here's the definition of those:
Dar al-Harb - house of war, territories under non-muslim rule. In von Wrangel's location box.
Dar al-islam - house of islam, territories under muslim rule.

The fact that those terms actually exist at all in islam is proof of what I've been saying.

It is very easy - which school of jurisprudence do you wish me to reference. You can choose any you like. We will probably need to bring in contrary schools and jurists to whichever you suggest but that is merely for balance.

Do you want the Sunni perspective or the Shi'i? I take it you don't assume they are the same.

Btw, your last statement above is hardly scholarly proof - I think arguments and references are traditional.

Let me know and I will get on it for you.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

This will be my last post to you as I was wrong about your sincerity, integrity and intelligence and now realize you fly with the Islamophobes because you are an Islamophobe.

Same old tired tar brush. You guys are going to have to find another tactic because the "phobe" brush is wearing real thin.

Originally Posted by segovius

Error 1: You say 'young'. I do not know where you get this - probably the same place as you get your 'facts' on Islam - but I have children who may well be older than you. At 21 and 19

Error 2, right there.

Originally Posted by segovius

Actually...you know what? I really can't be bothered...life is too short and I have better things to do, I'll let someone else carry it on from here if they feel there's any point. I can assure them there isn't.

Why, instead of resorting to the old "phobe" tar brush don't you actually disprove us?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

It is very easy - which school of jurisprudence do you wish me to reference. You can choose any you like. We will probably need to bring in contrary schools and jurists to whichever you suggest but that is merely for balance.

Do you want the Sunni perspective or the Shi'i? I take it you don't assume they are the same.

Do both. Educate us.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Same old tired tar brush. You guys are going to have to find another tactic because the "phobe" brush is wearing real thin.

Error 2, right there.

How can a proposition prefaced by the word 'may' be an error?

Are you saying there was no possibility whatsoever that when I wrote that not knowing how old the poster was (as I still don't) that they might be older?

I know you make statements not caring whether they can be proved but I do not know how old the poster is and I do know how old my children are - therefore the word 'may' was and still is, entirely appropriate.

Why, instead of resorting to the old "phobe" tar brush don't you actually disprove us?

Because you do not wish to be educated?

There is absolutely nothing that anyone could say, least of all me, that would make you re-consider your opinions.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

How can a proposition prefaced by the word 'may' be an error?

Assumptions (especially incorrect ones) class as errors in my book.

Originally Posted by segovius

There is absolutely nothing that anyone could say, least of all me, that would make you re-consider your opinions.

Don't do it to change my opinion. Do it to prove me wrong to everyone else reading this thread.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Do both. Educate us.

Ok.

There are numerous schools of thought and jurisprudence in Islam and they generally follow one or another scholar, Imam or other legal authority.

As there is no established overall structure or 'Church' in Islam then there is no absolute authority and the opinions of the schools often differ. People are free to follow whichever one they choose, none are legally binding (although some have come to be seen as such by their followers).

The principle doctrines of Dar al harb and Dar al Islam are used in the context that you use them by two particular groups: the Wahabi and the Salafi. These are Sunni extremist groups and arose in the eighteenth - nineteenth century in the Arabian peninsular.

They had no existence before that time - in fact their creation his very interesting as there was a marked British involvement but that is another story.

Today the Wahabis (of whom al-Qaeda would be classified also) make up perhaps 5% or so of all Muslims. They are confined in the main (in terms of government) to the Arabian peninsula - predominantly Saudi but also have strongholds in Nigeria and Indonesia although Saudi is arguably the only place where they act as an official government as such although they are not strictly to be labelled as Wahabis.

The point is that the doctrine Doofy outlines is a Wahabi doctrine and not upheld by traditional Islam - in fact, almost every doctrine and certainly the practice of the Wahabis can be proven to be such as it is a matter of fact (unfortunate things, facts) that Wahabism did not exist until the 18th century - 1200 years after Islam's foundation. It's doctrines therefore could not have existed before the existence of Muhammad ibn-Abd-al-Wahab (1703–1792) who created this movement.

But to the concepts: firstly, there is no mention of this concept in either the Qur’an or the Sunnah. That is a fact.

Anyone is welcome to disprove it. Google is your friend or grab a Qur'an and copy of the hadith - all we need is a verse. No big deal but you won't find one because there isn't one. That is what we call a 'fact'.

if you have read Bayan Lin-Nas [A Declaration for People] of the Sheikh Atiya Saqr (from Azhar University) or have access to a copy you will read that the concept of such labelling falls under the category of ijtihad.

ijtihad as you obviously know from your extensive studies, is the practice of exercising one's reason. Theologically it applies to situations where no explicit guidance can be derived from the Qur'an or Sunnah and allows one to use one's own logic to arrive at an opinion.

It follows that if one is able to use one's own opinion in this way then there can be no established ruling on this. This is why OBL can interpret it on one way and a moderate Muslim interpret it in another way.

So, you are right and wrong.

Right when you say some Muslims interpret in the way you say.

Wrong when you say that ALL Muslims interpret it this way.

To my mind there can be only two reasons why you would make this elementary mistake:

1) You did not know (though now you do)

2) You did know but wanted to portray it in another way (ie lie) for your own anti_-Islam agenda.

I guess we'll see which it is by your response, though I think that those who are capable of knowing do so already.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

I guess we'll see which it is by your response

To refresh your memory, the question was:

OK, deny that your religion doesn't wish to eliminate the Dar al-Harb

Answer it. Does your religion, in general, wish to eliminate the Dar al-Harb? Yes or no.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

To refresh your memory, the question was:



Answer it. Does your religion, in general, wish to eliminate the Dar al-Harb? Yes or no.

Oops, sorry, my fault - forgot you cannot reason and extrapolate from facts.

So:

No.

[Troll]

First off vmarks, it's no wonder you have a completely skewed version of this thing if you read websites like France-echos!!!

Originally Posted by vmarks

Every country does not have places like this.

Why don't you name some of these countries you're talking about that don't have ghettos. I don't know any country with a population the size of France's that doesn't have this problem.

Originally Posted by vmarks

You would think we would have heard of riots in other countries before now if this were the case.

Uhmm, did you miss the riots two weeks ago in the UK? You know, real race riots between Asians and whites.

Originally Posted by vmarks

Moreover, every country is not experiencing what has been happening for six days and counting in this, the Paris Intifada.

Funny, you post a picture of a demonstration - whites, blacks, Arabs all marching peacefully with T-Shirts saying "Dead for no reason" and somehow you turn that into an Intifada! Maybe you need to read a little more about France. Demonstrations like that are a daily occurrence.

As for the comparison with the LA Riots or the Intifada, maybe some of you forget that in 1992, thousands of people went on a rampage for 6 days solid. 60 people were killed in Los Angeles, 2,000 people were injured, damage of around $800 million was done. 10,000 people were arrested. The Al Aqsa Intifada has claimed over 1,000 Israeli lives and about 2,400 Palestinian lives. It has been going on for 5 years.

The "riots" in Paris have happened at night only. There have been no deaths. Let's look at what has happened:

Thursday
Police were called to Clichy-sous-Bois after a dozen youths tried to break into a hut on a building site. Two of them apparently ran away from the Police, scaled the wall of an electrical relay station, touched a transformer and died. The Police say that they did not chase the boys and even if they had, the deaths are hardly the cops' fault. The Paramedics come to help the boys and are attacked by a gang of thugs. It is common for youths to attack the "Pompiers" when they intervene in the cité. Don't ask me why. 15 vehicles are burned during the night. The Police decide to react.

Friday
On Friday night, in the Chêne-Pointu quarter, 400 youths face off against 250 Policemen. The Police are fired on and a Police officer is wounded. 30 vehicles are set alight. 13 youths (including a minor) are arrested.

Saturday
500 people of all races march in silence to pay hommage to the 2 boys who died. That's the photo vmarks posted. Some of them wore T-Shirts saying "Dead for nothing." There is no violence during the night but 17 dustbins are set alight. 12 people are arrested for carrying bottles of petrol.

Sunday
In the Forestière area, violence begins at nightfall. The teargas cannister goes off inside a mosque and the Police (who deny responsibility) are blamed. Six Policemen are injured and 11 people arrested.

Monday
At nightfall, youths set fire to cars and dustbins at Clichy-sous-Bois but the situation is generally calm. 11 people are arrested.

Tuesday
Violence erupts in Seine-et-Marne, les Yvelines at le Val-d'Oise. 100-150 youths are involved. They set alight 8 cars. 11 people are arrested last night.

Have a look at this video to see what it's about. Then go and download some footage of the L.A. Riots or the Intifada and tell me it's even close to the same thing. http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,[email protected],0.html

What you have in Paris is a bunch of white, black, Asian and Muslim youths who are used to having control over their neighbourhoods. They're used to running the show through fear and intimidation. And now they're unhappy that the Police have decided to step in and take back control of the cité. The people involved in the violence are a tiny minority of young people that are quite openly saying that the Police shouldn't be doing their job in the cité. They are holding up banners accusing the Police or having chased people attempting to commit burglary!!!! Only in France!! On the other side, you have the demonstrations that we had a month or so back by thousands of people from the cité demanding that law and order be restored to the cité after a bunch of youths gunned down a ten year old child in the entrance to his building during some drug war.

There's a minority that likes the disorder, that lives off it and that is exploiting the situation to maintain the anarchy. This is criminal activity, in my opinion. Given the numbers of people involved, I wouldn't even call it a riot and given the variety of races involved, it's certainly not a race riot. There's a gap between rich and poor in France, just as there is in every country on the planet. That difference can breed violence very easily. When you try to address some of the effects of that gap, it causes tension.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

Uhmm, did you miss the riots two weeks ago in the UK? You know, real race riots between Asians* and whites.

*cough*
muslims and Afro-Caribbeans. No whites involved, except the police.


Interesting point about those UK riots...

No UK media source reported what actually started the violence. I believe a gagging order was in place - the UK government and police do this a lot to prevent further turmoil.

The UK reports ran something like this:

Rumours of an alleged gang rape by an Asian shop owner against an Afro-Caribbean schoolgirl.
Meeting in local church to try to quell the tensions.
Violence flares.
Riot.

CNN carried the exact same news report as the BBC (delivered by the same agency), but it ran something like this:

Rumours of an alleged gang rape by an Asian shop owner against an Afro-Caribbean schoolgirl.
Meeting in local church to try to quell the tensions.
30 Asian youths turn up at the church and start throwing bricks at the people there.
Violence flares.
Riot.

It was exactly the same words in both reports, except the BBC one had the "30 Asian youths" paragraph removed.

Another interesting point about the UK riots is that at the time those 30 youths started the violence, police had to prevent 300 Asian youths from leaving the vicinity of a nearby (half mile) mosque who were intending to join in the fray. Seems like they were already there, massed, armed and waiting for the "festivities" to kick off.

Interesting, no?

And before anyone asks for links, I can't find be bothered to find the news reports ones (and the BBC tends to change its reports as a story progresses anyway, so what I saw may or may not still be there) and the bit about the 300 youths is from local sources (I live about 30 miles away from the scene of those riots).

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by segovius

Oops, sorry, my fault - forgot you cannot reason and extrapolate from facts.

So:

No.

So your religion doesn't have a mandate to spread itself around the World?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Why all the hatred from the self proclaimed peace-loving muslims? What is going on. What fires the flames of hatred in their hearts.. when all they have in common is violence and their religion.

While there may not be anything fundamentally wrong with the core message of Islam something has gone horribly wrong. Somehow in the organization or the lack thereof things have diffused in all directions. The message diluted.

Everyone is entitled to interpret the Koran in their way. And they do. In the last 40 years the hatred and violence have only increased. Much to thanks of Saudi Arabia and the Wahabis of course and those who choose to follow their interpretations. Also because of the mistake of many muslims to consider their religion and their culture to be inseperable.

The integration into western societies becomes difficult as the pressure to adapt the local culture is felt like an attack on their religion. These people are not Wahabis and are not fundamentalists in the same way but they have bitten it into themselves that their culture is their religion.

There is something very very wrong with much of the interpretations of Islam. Granted the core is healthy but the outgrowths are not.

cheers

W-Y

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So your religion doesn't have a mandate to spread itself around the World?

That's right.

You have been describing something that exists only in the minds of some Muslim extremist and some anti-Mulsim extremists.

[Monique]

It is not about Islam it is about a bunch of kids that think they are entitled to everything without making any efforts.

They think they are entitled to wealth without really trying, I know a lot of immigrants here in Calgary and they are very hard working people and made a lot of efforts to integrate themselves into the Canadian society.

But, I also know lazy people that all they do is whine.

I am not saying there is no racism in France but the fact that we asked of immigrants the same of citizens already in France or in any other country doesn't constitute racism.

Those kids just go to one or two places and if they don't get the job they are ready to riot. It is totally ridiculous.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by mojo2

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html

The Arab/Muslim Nazi Connection
Bosnian Moslems recruited the Nazi SS by 
Yasser Arafat's 'Uncle'


A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops - a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.

What are you trying to say? Can you elaborate instead of just posting pictures and quoting other sources?