[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

That's the way it should be. If I had a chance, I would love to have a child. Alas, its impossible for me.

It's impossible for me, as well.

I do not have a wife and I was unable to find an adoption agency that would work with a single man.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

In the form of what? Adoption? Abortion?

yes. Either way the mother is absolved of all responsibility. The father does not have any options in this regard.

[Spliffdaddy]

There have been 40,000,000 legal abortions in the USA.

In the meantime, I cannot figure out a way to get one child of my own.

edit: Well, I was told it was possible to "buy" a child. But something about that doesn't sit well with me. I figure if there have been 40,000,000 unwanted children then there's still a chance I could get one. This, folks, is what drives my desire to see abortions outlawed. Is it selfish of me? maybe. I just think there are plenty of single people out there like myself who would be thrilled to have a child.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

yes. Either way the mother is absolved of all responsibility. The father does not have any options in this regard.

Hmmm... well if the woman didn't want an abortion while the man did, I'd probably have to side with the women since her body is hers, but adoption... hmm... I never really thought about that. I suppose it makes sense to place the rights of men and women on equal footing in this regard.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There have been 40,000,000 legal abortions in the USA.

In the meantime, I cannot figure out a way to get one child of my own.

Maybe you should work on either becoming a celebrity or having a lot of money, or both... Oh yeah, maybe you should also comb your hair and shave your mustache... and tuck in your shirt, you bum!

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

In a previous abortion thread somebody mentioned that there should be a way for the father to "opt-out" of fatherhood. As it stands, fathers have no rights - except the right to pay child support. So, to keep things fair, fathers should be entitled to the right to concede their financial responsibilities and obligations toward the child.

Furthermore, abortions should require the consent of the father. If he chooses to not give consent, he must take custody of the child if the mother does not want it.

Interesting, definately something to consider.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

In a previous abortion thread somebody mentioned that there should be a way for the father to "opt-out" of fatherhood. As it stands, fathers have no rights - except the right to pay child support. So, to keep things fair, fathers should be entitled to the right to concede their financial responsibilities and obligations toward the child.

Furthermore, abortions should require the consent of the father.

It's not a right, it is an obligation.

I also agree the father should have a say, but the mother should have the last word on the basis that she is the one conceiving the child, not the father. The father brings genetic content, but the mother is the crucible where the life develops.

However, I also think we need to be careful to the amount of power women are provided. I mean women who use abortions as a regular contraceptive (they do exist).

So I don't think banning abortion clinics is a solution. On the contrary, they should be given a larger mandate of education related to births and sexuality and responsibilize parents, as well as mothers regarding abortions, but in a non-confessional setting.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Maybe you should work on either becoming a celebrity or having a lot of money, or both... Oh yeah, maybe you should also comb your hair and shave your mustache... and tuck in your shirt, you bum!

Except for funerals, I have never tucked my shirt in. The moustache is original equipment and has been there my entire adult life.

I will never be a wealthy celebrity...but I reckon I could comb my hair.

So, out of the 4 things you mentioned - I can accomplish one of them.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There have been 40,000,000 legal abortions in the USA.

In the meantime, I cannot figure out a way to get one child of my own.

edit: Well, I was told it was possible to "buy" a child. But something about that doesn't sit well with me. I figure if there have been 40,000,000 unwanted children then there's still a chance I could get one. This, folks, is what drives my desire to see abortions outlawed. Is it selfish of me? maybe. I just think there are plenty of single people out there like myself who would be thrilled to have a child.

I think there are a ton of unwanted children out there as it is and there does seem to be this unreasonable chasm between these kids and people like you who really want one. I wish that wasn't so.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Except for funerals, I have never tucked my shirt in. The moustache is original equipment and has been there my entire adult life.

I will never be a wealthy celebrity...but I reckon I could comb my hair.

So, out of the 4 things you mentioned - I can accomplish one of them.

I can come up with other ways in which you could improve your personality, if you'd like to hear them...

[besson3c]

It's interesting thinking about where our cultural and biological understandings overlap. Biologically speaking, a woman's seed is very precious, a man's is very cheap. You can argue that several aspects of our culture reflect this.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

(snip)

So I don't think banning abortion clinics is a solution. On the contrary, they should be given a larger mandate of education related to births and sexuality and responsibilize parents, as well as mothers regarding abortions, but in a non-confessional setting.

Well, I don't think banning abortions is the answer, either. But I honestly can't think of a more profound way to change attitudes toward children.

Our society cannot seem to decide whether a child is a miracle or a burden. So, it chooses both options.

I hear a lot of assumptions about the fate of "unwanted" children:

They'll grow up in poverty. --- Yeah, so? What about the other 60 years of their life. Besides, this is America. There are countless stories of success gleaned from hardship. Being poor does not mean you are unhappy.

They'll grow up to be criminals. --- Legalize drugs and their chances of being criminals are reduced 50%. Just kidding, sorta. But, even criminals can contribute to society. I used to be a criminal. Before and after being a criminal I was a law-abiding productive taxpayer. But, we already have a crime problem that's worsened since abortion became legal, so I'm not sure this old dog will hunt.

They'll be unwanted. --- Well, I can assure you at least one of them is wanted. I can't speak for the millions of other single folks like myself, but there may be a home for every unwanted child. It wouldn't hurt to find out.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I can come up with other ways in which you could improve your personality, if you'd like to hear them...

People love my personality. Spliffdaddy is just a role I play.

But I'd be interested to hear your suggestions. I promise I won't be mad.

[art_director]

Abortion may be gone in SD but there are clinics here in MN that are happy to take on patients who are denied across the border. If the Bible thumpers outlaw it here they'll go to Canada or, back to the old skool ways of a coat hanger and some peroxide. Guaranteed.

[Spliffdaddy]

No need. The local Indian reservation has agreed to provide abortions.

This is South Dakota we're talking about. Their only abortion clinic is open 4 days per month. Don't expect to see an influx of pregnant women into MN.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

No need. The local Indian reservation has agreed to provide abortions.

This is South Dakota we're talking about. Their only abortion clinic is open 4 days per month. Don't expect to see an influx of pregnant women into MN.

That clinic is staffed by doctors from Minneapolis. I'm well aware of what it is and how it operates -- been all over the news here.

Haven't seen the stories myself but have been told women are already coming to MN for the procedure. I guess it's easier to hide behind a trip to Minneapolis than it is to the local rez.

[subego]

Originally Posted by smacintush

You aren't getting it.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Originally Posted by smacintush

I am not trying to avoid giving men their share of the blame.

Like I asked before, if I allow a man to put his penis in me with no condom and I get a disease, whose fault is that? Who should I blame? I can say that HE probably knew that he had a disease and he should either wore a condom or told me or refused to have sex, but in the end it was MY fault for being stupid enough to let him do it. I am the one who has to live with it so it does me no good whatsoever to shift the blame for MY own stupidity on him.

That you say "shift the blame" makes me think you are looking at this as a zero-sum proposition, someone else receiving blame means oneself is receiving less blame.

Likewise, in this situation I don't think the point in holding someone else accountable for their participation is necessarily to make oneself less accountable. I certainly agree that making oneself less accountable does one no good.

[art_director]

I support abortion but don't believe it's to be used as a form of birth control. Therefore, I see the need for some restrictions on the practice.

After my child was born I became an even stronger supporter of abortion. Fact is, being a parent is tough, especially at first. If we force all women to have their children we're going to have a lot more screwed up people in the US given the fact that not all women will feel the same toward a child they were forced to have vs. one they want to have. This will drive up abuse, abandonment, neglect, etc. and will, in the long term, be more of a detriment to our nation than allowing abortion.

[Spliffdaddy]

But that's all speculation.

What would it hurt to see whether it's true or not?

You have to agree that legal abortions haven't exactly cut the crime rate or neglect rate.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Our society cannot seem to decide whether a child is a miracle or a burden. So, it chooses both options.

I hate to jump on such a sensitive Spliffdaddy post, but society has made it pretty clear they consider them a burden.

Apart from the fact that you can't define something that's happened at least 6 billion times over the last century as a "miracle", why do you think that people who are more educated and or wealthy are likely to have less children?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

But that's all speculation.

Do you have children?

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

What would it hurt to see whether it's true or not?

That car doesn't have reverse.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You have to agree that legal abortions haven't exactly cut the crime rate or neglect rate.

It's not possible to isolate crime and neglect rates over the past four decades as being the result of abortion.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by subego

Apart from the fact that you can't define something that's happened at least 6 billion times over the last century as a "miracle", why do you think that people who are more educated and or wealthy are likely to have less children?

I think that comes down to money and freedom. Raising children is a fulltime job and it's a lot of work. It's wonderful but it does come with baggage and bills. And believe me, the child tax credit doesn't even come close to making up for the cost of raising a kid.

Example:

My child was born earlier this year. The bills from the hospital and for my wife's care visits leading up to the birth: $7,000 (this is the out-of-pocket figure)

Monthly daycare once my wife went back to work: $1,200 / month (MN happens to have the highest childcare costs in the United States)

Peditrician visits + specialist for a fairly common condition he had temporarily: $3,500 (this is the out-of-pocket figure)

Monthly healthcare premium impact after birth: $225

Monthly food + clothes + misc. kid stuff: $300

Immunizations + prescriptions: $900 (this is the out-of-pocket figure)

TOTAL THUS FAR: $21,600 spent in calendar year 2006 with 2.5 months to go in the year

I believe the federal tax credit is $4,500.

That kids, is reality. It's also effing expensive. Now imagine forcing that, as well as the responsibility, on a woman.

Thus far

[itai195]

Originally Posted by art_director

I think that comes down to money and freedom.

And I think those both boil down to an important skill: planning. Surely less educated and/or poor people also realize that raising kids is expensive and time consuming. But in my limited experience, they seem unwilling to plan ahead. Just my $.02 on the subject.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by art_director

Do you have children?

I think I made it clear that I do not.

That car doesn't have reverse.

Legislation can be reversed. But, in reality, the abortion debate is a states rights issue. I sincerely doubt that abortion will ever be outlawed nationwide - or in any state. States may place restrictions on abortion, however. Kinda like they place restrictions on bankruptcy protection or a myriad of other things.

It's not possible to isolate crime and neglect rates over the past four decades as being the result of abortion.

That's right. Nobody knows. I'm willing to agree that children from single-parent households are statistically more likely to commit crimes, less likely to achieve scholastically or financially, and more likely to produce offspring into another a single-parent household. Not all of them will do badly. So do we eliminate all the children in an effort to prevent some of them from having problems?

BUT.....now this is important....if the overall goal in reducing abortions is to change the perception of children - that is, from being burdens to being an asset - then general attitudes might change. In order to be a truly great nation we must have a reverence for life. We must have a future population that values each citizen. I've always felt that our interaction with people is the only worthwhile reason to be alive. Yeah, some people annoy the hell out of me, but even still it's far better than never knowing them at all.

My position on abortion is not based on religious principle. I do believe there's a God, but he's my God. He isn't Christian, Muslim, nor Jew. I don't know how He feels about abortion. I do know it's not my job to judge others. Heaven, to me, is exactly where I am now. With all its good and bad. Hell is a place where everybody is perfect and good.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by itai195

And I think those both boil down to an important skill: planning. Surely less educated and/or poor people also realize that raising kids is expensive and time consuming. But in my limited experience, they seem unwilling to plan ahead. Just my $.02 on the subject.

I would agree that some people don't plan. To call out the less educated / poor, isn't entirely accurate. I know well-educated people who just didn't think about it. Then, one day, their maternal / paternal instincts kicked in and bam, kid's here.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by art_director

I would agree that some people don't plan. To call out the less educated / poor, isn't entirely accurate. I know well-educated people who just didn't think about it. Then, one day, their maternal / paternal instincts kicked in and bam, kid's here.

True, this is a complex subject and admittedly I'm relying on my personal experience. The people in your example at least had the foresight not to have kids while they didn't want them.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I do believe there's a God, but he's my God. He isn't Christian, Muslim, nor Jew. I don't know how He feels about abortion. I do know it's not my job to judge others. Heaven, to me, is exactly where I am now. With all its good and bad. Hell is a place where everybody is perfect and good.

We disagree on many things, Spliff. But this post sounds like something I would write.

Raising a glass of ale in your general direction.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by art_director

Now imagine forcing that, as well as the responsibility, on a woman.

I agree, and no woman should be able to force that kind of financial burden on a man simply because their encounter lead to pregnancy.

[Spliffdaddy]

I think it's amazing how some of the poorest, least educated parents can raise remarkable children. Seems the educated wealthy parents raise the worst children.

My excuse is I thought about it too much. Planned too much. Never felt like it was the proper environment to raise a child. After 10 years of thinking about having a child, we got divorced. Hell, we even had a name picked out. I can't decide if it would be a good thing to have a child that lived with its mother, or like now, not having one at all. Tough call. Sucks either way I imagine.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush

I agree, and no woman should be able to force that kind of financial burden on a man simply because their encounter lead to pregnancy.

heh. Nice flip.

I think that if a father is required to pay child support, that father should be entitled to some decent visitation rights.

Every child has a father. Is it too much to ask that every father support his child? There should be no children born without a father's name on the birth certificate. Yes, I've seen Jerry Springer. I know there are circumstances where the father is difficult to find. Still, it is not impossible. Before I am asked to support a child via tax dollars, every effort to find the father should be taken.

[besson3c]

Spliffdaddy: maybe you could ask some women on this board if they could father your child?

[Spliffdaddy]

The married ones? or the Canadian?

heh. doesn't matter anyhow. I'm too damned old.

edit: and I look like a freakin teabag.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Monique

WHY CAN'T YOU WEAR A CONDOM??

I Love You Monique.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The married ones? or the Canadian?

You sure you want the Canadian brother?

WHEN ARE YOU TAKING THE GARBAGE OUT?!?! WHEN I THROW IT IN YOUR CAR?!? ANSWER ME!!!

eesh.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The married ones? or the Canadian?

heh. doesn't matter anyhow. I'm too damned old.

edit: and I look like a freakin teabag.

How old are you? You make it sound like you're a hundred. Kenny Rogers had a child recently and I bet he's a lot older than you. Why give up?

[besson3c]

Maybe you should just dress up to look like Kenny Rogers?

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Maybe you should just dress up to look like Kenny Rogers?

Only if he was as rich as Kenny. . .

[subego]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

Only if he was as rich as Kenny. . .

They teabagged Kenny. You bastards!

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by subego

They teabagged Kenny. You bastards!

They? you teabagged Kenny.

[Spliffdaddy]

I'm 40.5 years old. I've been single for about 7 years.

Since I'm not looking for a spouse I'm pretty certain I won't find one. Usually I have a girlfriend or two, always out of state, and never anything serious. I just like going out to eat and travelling and concerts. Being single and living alone has been wonderful. Right now my goal is to work hard, make money, and then kick back and do whatever I want. A family ain't something that's in my plans. Still, I would like to have child. Or, at this point, maybe a child that's like 10. Old enough to use a pneumatic nailgun or cutoff saw.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by art_director

Example:

My child was born earlier this year. The bills from the hospital and for my wife's care visits leading up to the birth: $7,000 (this is the out-of-pocket figure)

Monthly daycare once my wife went back to work: $1,200 / month (MN happens to have the highest childcare costs in the United States)

Peditrician visits + specialist for a fairly common condition he had temporarily: $3,500 (this is the out-of-pocket figure)

Monthly healthcare premium impact after birth: $225

Monthly food + clothes + misc. kid stuff: $300

Immunizations + prescriptions: $900 (this is the out-of-pocket figure)

TOTAL THUS FAR: $21,600 spent in calendar year 2006 with 2.5 months to go in the year

WHAAAAA? You really need to change insurance plans.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I'm 40.5 years old. I've been single for about 7 years.

Since I'm not looking for a spouse I'm pretty certain I won't find one. Usually I have a girlfriend or two, always out of state, and never anything serious. I just like going out to eat and travelling and concerts. Being single and living alone has been wonderful. Right now my goal is to work hard, make money, and then kick back and do whatever I want. A family ain't something that's in my plans. Still, I would like to have child. Or, at this point, maybe a child that's like 10. Old enough to use a pneumatic nailgun or cutoff saw.

Well, our child was born two weeks after my 38th b-day. We're not in such different boats with respect to age.

Ever consider adoption?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by BRussell

WHAAAAA? You really need to change insurance plans.

I know, it blows to have to pay so much. A few items that put it into perspective:

- MN has some of the best healthcare in the US (ie. Mayo Clinic) but it comes at a price -- a very high price.

- My wife and I are both self-employed. According to our accountant, we have an inexpensive plan as compared to his other self-employed clients.

- Because we're on separate plans -- me and child on one, wife on another (cheapest way to do it -- we've run the numbers on numerous occasions) -- we have larger out-of-pocket and deductible limits. This keeps the monthly down but raises the financial burden when major events occur (ie. hospital bills.).


Now, here's where I raise a middle finger at the politicians -- we can't deduct any of it above the monthly premiums unless we switch healthcare plans. To deduct the costs associated with out-of-pocket you must, by IRS rules, have an HSA. For us, to have an HSA, our monthly premiums would eclipse what we pay presently -- hospital bills included. IOW, the only way we'd come out ahead is if one of us had serious medical needs.

No matter what the politicians tell you, the healthcare situation in the US is screwed and they don't give two shiits about fixing it because they get free healthcare for life. I say phuuck them.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by art_director

Well, our child was born two weeks after my 38th b-day. We're not in such different boats with respect to age.

Ever consider adoption?

edit: congrats on your child. I guess after that everything else you accomplish in life kinda pales in comparison. Not that I would know, but I've imagined it enough that I think I understand.

I checked into adoption rather extensively back in 2000-2001. It was apparent that adoption agencies do not place children into single-parent households...and certainly would never consider placing a child with a single man. They were very understanding, and could offer no explanation as to why it wasn't possible. I was told that I wasn't the first single man to inquire about adoption. The short answer is that they want to insure the child's longterm well-being...and we all know that men are child molesters and they don't take responsibility for children. And you must teach young boys not to beat women else they are genetically inclined to do just that. Etc etc. this message brought to you by the adCouncil.

Some options they told me to consider were:

1) Foreign adoption. The red tape is unbelieveable and you have to bribe dozens of people. Then there's no legal recourse if you never get the child. Unless you're Madonna.

2) "Direct adoption" I forget the legal term. But this is where you 'sponsor' (aka bribe) an expectant mother by paying all medical expenses along with a lump-sum bonus...which isn't required except for the fact that if you don't offer enough money then somebody else will...also note that there aren't many women willing to do this - and the ones that do are doing it primarily for money. Again, there's no decent legal remedy if the mother changes her mind after the child is born. Simply because you cannot legally adopt an unborn child. I was told to expect to pay upwards of $40,000-60,000 to cover the medical expenses (pre-natal and post) and the, um, bribe portion of the payment. Also, I would need an attorney. There were, I think, six attorneys that handle this sort of thing. You can bet they are not affordable.

The purchasing of a child is disturbing to me. How do you tell the child that his mother sold him for cash? Hell, you couldn't. You'd have to lie and say "she wanted you to have a better life". When, in reality, *she* wanted to have a better life with the money. I'd say this method should be a crime, but it's not up to me to judge its merits. The bottom line is that somebody that wanted to adopt a child was able to do it. So, if you focus on the good part of the deal, then maybe this method should be more common. I don't have any problem with paying the money. I could live with myself. Seems like the only real possibility of adopting a child in my circumstances. And really, $50,000 for a life is chickenfeed. I've seen $50,000 cars. While inherently wrong, it sends a powerful message. You can pay a couple hundred bucks and abort your child - or you can give up your child for adoption and walk away with enough money for college.

Most folks that don't know anything about the subject always tell me to adopt one of those "troubled" children from the state. I looked into that, too. Those kids are doomed to stay in the state's custody. The requirements for adoption closely resemble having a PhD in child development, advanced first-aid certification, and a wealthy married couple with a long history of being essentially perfect.

I'm an advocate for father's rights. It's an easy job since there's no rights assigned to fathers.

Hey, let's relax some adoption laws already. Small wonder there's no choice besides abortion. My intent is to create a *need* for relaxed adoption laws by limiting abortions. Extreme, you say? Nah, it's actually the only way I can figure to have a chance of adopting a child before I'm dead.

[besson3c]

Spliffdaddy: you live in Bible Belt, right?

Have you thought about trying to adopt outside of Jesus and God land - a place with more liberal values?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Spliffdaddy: you live in Bible Belt, right?

Have you thought about trying to adopt outside of Jesus and God land - a place with more liberal values?

Yeah, yeah like... like San Francisco. Just wait by a dumpster.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Yeah, yeah like... like San Francisco. Just wait by a dumpster.

Homosexuals can't reproduce.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Homosexuals can't reproduce.

Okay, Minnesota then.

[besson3c]

I love it when I intentionally toss out silly generalizations which are met with even sillier ones

[G Barnett]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

heh. Nice flip.

I think that if a father is required to pay child support, that father should be entitled to some decent visitation rights.

Every child has a father. Is it too much to ask that every father support his child? There should be no children born without a father's name on the birth certificate. Yes, I've seen Jerry Springer. I know there are circumstances where the father is difficult to find. Still, it is not impossible. Before I am asked to support a child via tax dollars, every effort to find the father should be taken.

Speaking as a dad who pays child support without complaining, aye, I agree 100%. My only beef is with the fact that I can't claim ANY of it on my taxes. I mean really, in my eyes, allowing SOME sort of tax credit or deduction for paying child support and keeping up with that responsibility would be 1) a great way to reward fellas who ARE responsible in the first place, and 2) a good enticement for at least some of the deadbeats who currently skip out on it.

I am somewhat lucky, in that my ex and I have an arrangement where every other year I get to claim our son 100% on my taxes, so it's not as bad as it could be. However, a set "50/50" tax law or something similar would smooth things out across the board, each and every year.