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Merging Lounge and Pol Lounge? (Page 2)
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 27, 2011, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I've recently done the same, since it's the same 6 dudes yelling at the top of their lungs. Only I think the soul getting sucked out of the regular lounge is directly related to the PWL existence. THings were alot more fun around here when people weren't so serious, the PWL is the polar opposite of that, people are so serious they end up hating each other.
People complain about over-moderation in the Lounge, and maybe they're right, but if they are it's because the PL is woefully under-moderated. No one wants that job, and it shows. The shit that goes down there the past few years would have been weeded out fairly quickly back in they heyday of say, 2004. Mayb thanks to that, all that ill-will spills over to the Lounge when it could have just been nipped in the bud.

Of course, I could be completely backwards. Because the only people I ever see get banned usually are directly linked to PL posting. But hey, maybe that's because the line in there has gotten so far out of hand they're surprised there's one left to cross any more.
     
sek929
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Oct 27, 2011, 03:48 PM
 
Let's just have a sticky thread where everyone can post a detailed writeup of their political leanings, and then the thread can be locked. So that just in case anyone gives a sh!t they can instantly tell whether or not they agree with someone without all the posturing and malarky.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 27, 2011, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
People complain about over-moderation in the Lounge, and maybe they're right, but if they are it's because the PL is woefully under-moderated. No one wants that job, and it shows. The shit that goes down there the past few years would have been weeded out fairly quickly back in they heyday of say, 2004. Mayb thanks to that, all that ill-will spills over to the Lounge when it could have just been nipped in the bud.

Of course, I could be completely backwards. Because the only people I ever see get banned usually are directly linked to PL posting. But hey, maybe that's because the line in there has gotten so far out of hand they're surprised there's one left to cross any more.
You think the PWL is woefully under-moderated? I think the level of moderation on it is just fine, thank you very much.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 27, 2011, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
You think the PWL is woefully under-moderated? I think the level of moderation on it is just fine, thank you very much.
I'll put it this way: I think the moderation in the PL doesn't work to promote honest discussion and instead teaches everyone how much they can insult, derail, and bait without getting banned.

Ex: I'd lock half the crap threads you post because you post and run, maybe revisit the thread later and when you do, completely ignore everyone who responds to your OP and just drop another post that you'll give similar treatment to.

It's a farce.
     
sek929
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Oct 27, 2011, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
and instead teaches everyone how much they can insult, derail, and bait without getting banned.

It's a farce.
Bam, exactly. Every once and a while something comes up that either promotes a decent level of discourse, or at the very least has people address eachother with some level of respect, but those threads are the 1% (see what I did there?).

There are three choices when participating in a PWL thread. Align yourself with the Left, therefore receiving mockery from the Right, align yourself with the Right, therefore receiving mockery from the Left, or stand neutral and be told that it isn't reasonable to not stand with either side.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 27, 2011, 06:36 PM
 
I disagree with you both. I think the PWL works pretty well the way it is and is moderated effectively, FWIW. And I've been on the receiving end of a multi-month complete ban once before, but even after that I like things as they are. I didn't even know that you guys (Dakar and sek) had much of any interest in the PWL.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Athens
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Oct 27, 2011, 08:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Bad idea. Things are fine the way they are, IMO. PWL separate for those who want PWL. Merging it back into the Lounge proper would just cause the same problems that used to occur with the Lounge being overwhelmed by political topics. Getting rid of political discussion completely isn't the way to go either, unless you want less activity and interest in the Lounge generally.
That's twice we both totally agree on something :O
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Athens
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Oct 27, 2011, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I seem to recall the PWL popping up in September or October of 2001 to concentrate the discussion of the 9/11 attacks; I'd been a member for about 5 months then. This may only be my personal experience with it, but we definitely had a separate area for those discussions that far back.

In any case, one thing that sets PWL apart from the regular Lounge is that there are different rules there-rules that allow for less civil discussion. These rules were established (and tweaked) to supposedly allow "difficult" subjects to be discussed without too many complaints that the material was offensive or otherwise uncomfortable. Removing the PWL might drive posters there to the Lounge, but we certainly would not allow PWL-type posts to continue in the regular Lounge. The Lounge rules may require additional effort in enforcement, but the depths to which PWL threads are allowed to fall would NOT be allowed to be plumbed in the Lounge.
And I think most of us respect this fact to keeping most of our crap in the PL while being civil in the normal lounge.


If people are so concerned with the PWL lounge hurting the regular lounge then make the PWL lounge a invite only place. Users have to request access to it. Change the news site page to drop facebook login for comments. Require it to be the Forum account. Post more forum topics on the main page. You know what the Main page comments should be forum threads. I think macrumors does that. Each story the comment section is feed from the forums thus creating topic of the stories themselves.
( Last edited by Athens; Oct 27, 2011 at 08:42 PM. )
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besson3c
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Oct 28, 2011, 01:44 AM
 
There is no policy change that will bring back the glory days. These sorts of threads will continue to the end of time. Meh.
     
Athens
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Oct 28, 2011, 02:09 AM
 
MacNN could be more proactive on Facebook and Twitter and with its own home page to get forum traffic. From what I see MacNN is stagnated and lost like Microsoft.
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The Final Dakar
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Oct 28, 2011, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I didn't even know that you guys (Dakar and sek) had much of any interest in the PWL.
How do you perceive interest on the internet?
     
ghporter
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Oct 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
 
Way back, people came to our forums from the MacNN front page (www . macnn . com); they had to register here to comment on news stories, and the comments became Forum posts. They often stuck around to enjoy the fun. Since the (2 or 3?) front page redesigns, with changes that made that unnecessary, (Facebook logins, etc.) and with the news stories' comments being handled by the front page and not Forums, a lot of folks just don't get into the forums. That, all by itself, has reduced our traffic a whole lot. And we have been diligently addressing this with management, though so far we have not been successful.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
turtle777
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Oct 28, 2011, 02:52 PM
 
Management at 'NN seem to be pretty dumb.

And, FWIW, I never go to the Front page. The redesign back then just completely turned me off.

-t
     
besson3c
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Oct 28, 2011, 04:41 PM
 
     
turtle777
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Oct 28, 2011, 05:08 PM
 
Ha, LOL, no, but maybe I *should* become him.

-t
     
besson3c
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Oct 28, 2011, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Ha, LOL, no, but maybe I *should* become him.

-t

Why, does he look cooler than you?
     
turtle777
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Oct 28, 2011, 06:16 PM
 
777 times

-t
     
ShortcutToMoncton  (op)
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Oct 30, 2011, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ex: I'd lock half the crap threads you post because you post and run, maybe revisit the thread later and when you do, completely ignore everyone who responds to your OP and just drop another post that you'll give similar treatment to.

It's a farce.
Hahaha...the "medical breakthrough" thread is a perfect example. The idea of Big Mac, Athens and el chupacabra all united in support of some random documentary about some crazy doctor who's cured cancer but just being persecuted by "the man" made me howl with delight after the first 10 posts, and I even started following it just in anticipation of what would come. And then Big Mac disappeared, presumably never to be seen again and conveniently letting Athens take the brunt of the violent and repeated smackdowns (which of course was a wise choice, as he is sadly eager to do so).

And of course, there will never be an apology. There will be no "whoops...I ****ed that one up, and I was an idiot for saying those things. Sorry." See: the Shaddim thread a couple months ago on that now-completely-discredited press release of a study "disproving" global warming, where everyone suddenly piles on in agreement as to this sudden justification of all they've believed in; and then just whistles dixie into the sunset when someone points out they were all giving their stamp of approval to a complete lie (and rinse and repeat; shades of the "global swindling" documentary a couple years ago).

I think what I came to realize about it was that most of the people in there are there not to learn new things that might enlighten and inform their opinion. Instead, they had opinions, and then used it as a soap-box for argument; the arguments are what were informed and changed, not the opinions.

Anyways, whatever. Guess it doesn't matter. I just think it would create a more lively general area, rather than the current form. But apparently I'm possibly the only one. I still don't agree with the arguments against it - they seem to be "I didn't like it being too noisy", rather than "it would not make our lounge area any more interesting." But no biggie; it was just a random thought I was playing with.
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Big Mac
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Oct 30, 2011, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
How do you perceive interest on the internet?
Posting frequency. I've noticed some recent posts from you in the PWL, but you're definitely not one of the regulars there, nor is sek.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Oct 30, 2011 at 10:44 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Athens
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Oct 31, 2011, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Hahaha...the "medical breakthrough" thread is a perfect example. The idea of Big Mac, Athens and el chupacabra all united in support of some random documentary about some crazy doctor who's cured cancer but just being persecuted by "the man" made me howl with delight after the first 10 posts, and I even started following it just in anticipation of what would come. And then Big Mac disappeared, presumably never to be seen again and conveniently letting Athens take the brunt of the violent and repeated smackdowns (which of course was a wise choice, as he is sadly eager to do so).

And of course, there will never be an apology. There will be no "whoops...I ****ed that one up, and I was an idiot for saying those things. Sorry." See: the Shaddim thread a couple months ago on that now-completely-discredited press release of a study "disproving" global warming, where everyone suddenly piles on in agreement as to this sudden justification of all they've believed in; and then just whistles dixie into the sunset when someone points out they were all giving their stamp of approval to a complete lie (and rinse and repeat; shades of the "global swindling" documentary a couple years ago).

I think what I came to realize about it was that most of the people in there are there not to learn new things that might enlighten and inform their opinion. Instead, they had opinions, and then used it as a soap-box for argument; the arguments are what were informed and changed, not the opinions.

Anyways, whatever. Guess it doesn't matter. I just think it would create a more lively general area, rather than the current form. But apparently I'm possibly the only one. I still don't agree with the arguments against it - they seem to be "I didn't like it being too noisy", rather than "it would not make our lounge area any more interesting." But no biggie; it was just a random thought I was playing with.
Do you always lie and twist the truth this much?
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Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 31, 2011, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Posting frequency. I've noticed some recent posts from you in the PWL, but you're definitely not one of the regulars there, nor is sek.
That's an inaccurate way to measure interest. It doesn't take into account the real benefit of a good honest discussion – the learning. I read the PL most of the time there's a new thread or worthwhile discussion. Then when it inevitably devolves into nuanced bashing, semantics & minutia, monologuing, or just flat-out lies, it no longer is worth reading.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 31, 2011, 02:10 PM
 
Color me surprised. It was my assumption that anyone interested in the PWL would be engaged in threads regularly. I didn't know there were members who lurked there. Thank you for the correction.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
sek929
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Oct 31, 2011, 04:20 PM
 
I also enjoyed keeping up with various topics of political interest via the PWL, but the arguments that drew me into posting usually were not worth anyone's time. I'll continue to lurk there when logged out, but now I can no longer succumb to the sudden urge to voice my opinion in a realm where no-one is interested in anyone else's opinion but their own.
     
ShortcutToMoncton  (op)
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Oct 31, 2011, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Do you always lie and twist the truth this much?
Cool story, brah.






Now please point out what you're talking about.
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Doofy
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Nov 7, 2011, 11:19 AM
 
Here's an idea:
1) Keep the standard lounge as is.
2) Remove all moderation and the "report post" button from the PWL. Enter at own risk. Maybe even have to click a disclaimer before being put into a user group with PWL access.

If you don't think that'll work, it's not my fault that your IQ is so low.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Spheric Harlot
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Nov 7, 2011, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Posting frequency. I've noticed some recent posts from you in the PWL, but you're definitely not one of the regulars there, nor is sek.
Not wanting to deal with lunacy != not having interest in a subject.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 7, 2011, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Here's an idea:
1) Keep the standard lounge as is.
2) Remove all moderation and the "report post" button from the PWL. Enter at own risk. Maybe even have to click a disclaimer before being put into a user group with PWL access.

If you don't think that'll work, it's not my fault that your IQ is so low.
That's a minimal variation of the de facto status quo. It wouldn't change anything, because nothing changes. Except that it would probably guarantee absolutely the death of the Mac-related side of the forum. I certainly wouldn't sign up to a forum filled with vitriolic deaf assholes, just to ask a tech question.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 7, 2011, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That's a minimal variation of the de facto status quo. It wouldn't change anything, because nothing changes. Except that it would probably guarantee absolutely the death of the Mac-related side of the forum. I certainly wouldn't sign up to a forum filled with vitriolic deaf assholes, just to ask a tech question.
Instead of banning people from the PL, we should ban them to the PL.
     
subego
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Nov 7, 2011, 12:13 PM
 
I like it!
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 7, 2011, 12:16 PM
 
I'm half serious. Doofy wants the inmates to run the asylum. I want the inmates locked in the asylum.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 7, 2011, 01:15 PM
 
Can we rename it Thunderdome?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 7, 2011, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Can we rename it Thunderdome?
No, that will only encourage them.

I forum I lurk used to ban people to a sub-forum named "The Blue Oyster"
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 7, 2011, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
No, that will only encourage them.

I forum I lurk used to ban people to a sub-forum named "The Blue Oyster"
That's awesome.

Have Grace Jones and Village People running in endless audio loops on all pages (yeah, or that tango, but that would be too cheap).
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 10, 2011, 10:08 AM
 
See the anti-bullying thread for example 1A as to why the PL is a cesspool of dishonest discussion.
     
ShortcutToMoncton  (op)
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Nov 10, 2011, 10:49 AM
 
I just logged out and went to read it on your recommendation. Awesome (although probably not as awesome as the violent smackdowns Athens keeps receiving in the "medical breakthrough" thread - you gotta admire that dogged persistence in the face of all logic and rationality, lemme tell you).

I don't really care for the "let's not make kids call each other names" bit - hellloooooo, job of teachers and parents - but was especially a fan of the "you know, when us old guys were young, no one bashed gay people...I guess gay bashing is a product of this irresponsible young generation" tack. And that ladies and gentlemen is a beautiful, beautiful thing.
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 10, 2011, 10:54 AM
 
You left out the best part, when it got derailed into a discussion about how taxes are bullying.
     
ShortcutToMoncton  (op)
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Nov 10, 2011, 11:44 AM
 
Libs-Dems!
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Athens
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Nov 10, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Have yet to have a smack down in the medical breakthrough thread. Just children grasping at "Just Because, Just Because" which I hardly count as anything.
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ShortcutToMoncton  (op)
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Nov 10, 2011, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Have yet to have a smack down in the medical breakthrough thread. Just children grasping at "Just Because, Just Because" which I hardly count as anything.
You know, the fact that you can read through that entire thread and then claim that it's other people saying "just because, just because" makes me not only question your reading comprehension (which I question on a daily basis anyway), but also your sanity.
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Athens
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Nov 10, 2011, 05:05 PM
 
Show something that ins a "just because" then. Because as it stands now not one person, myself included have posted anything for or against his work that was not based on Just because.
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ShortcutToMoncton  (op)
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Nov 10, 2011, 05:27 PM
 
"I've cured cancer!"

"Okay! Here, prove it!"

"Uhhhh...just trust me, I've cured cancer!"

"Wellllllll...you said you cured these people, but actually, they died. Of cancer."

"Uhhhh...stop attacking me!"

"Wellllllll...why don't you just show us that you've cured cancer then?"

"Why don't you just prove that I haven't, huh? And if you don't, that means I have! Haha!"
You are on the last line. And if you don't understand why that means what you're saying is completely illogical and devoid of rationality, well...yeaaaaaah.
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andi*pandi
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Nov 10, 2011, 05:50 PM
 
Keep the medical bickering in the medical bickering thread!
     
OAW
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Nov 10, 2011, 07:27 PM
 
I would not be in favor of merging the PWL with the regular Lounge. The decreasing forum traffic has nothing to do with them being separate so merging them would not do anything to make it seem more "lively" around here. It would only serve to alienate regular Lounge members who are put off by PWL topics ... which would only exacerbate the decreasing forum traffic problem.

OAW
     
Athens
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Nov 11, 2011, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
You are on the last line. And if you don't understand why that means what you're saying is completely illogical and devoid of rationality, well...yeaaaaaah.
Show me where he ever said I cured Cancer...
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Athens
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Nov 11, 2011, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Keep the medical bickering in the medical bickering thread!
Okie
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Athens
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Nov 11, 2011, 02:00 AM
 
I like to add the constant moving of threads out of the lounge of discussion merit into say the Mac OS X forum or the iPod forum and so on hurts the lounge and does nothing to help those topic forums.
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Spheric Harlot
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Nov 11, 2011, 03:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Show me where he ever said I cured Cancer...
*smacks forehead*

OMG IT'S ZIMPHIRE
     
Athens
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Nov 11, 2011, 03:52 AM
 
I actually keep in touch with Kevin
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Spheric Harlot
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Nov 11, 2011, 06:19 AM
 
Unsurprising. Great minds think alike, and all that, I suppose.
     
besson3c
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Nov 11, 2011, 06:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Unsurprising. Great minds think alike, and all that, I suppose.

Thanks Spheric, I like your mind too.
     
 
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