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terrancew_hod · Jun 12, 2003, 05:09 PM

LOL!

Hey Scott, trying to get your point to some of these people sometimes is like this:

Terrance

villalobos · Jun 12, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Metzen:
AtAT says no 970's at WWDC

well not really, as mentionned above.But now they have a very funny bit on their website regarding their comment. Go and read it.

Villa

Commodus · Jun 12, 2003, 05:14 PM

Where do people get the notion that Panther absolutely must come no sooner than September, since it's being previewed later than Jaguar was last year?

The delay may have simply been to get a more complete look at Panther, since some particular feature or another was taking longer to become stabilized. If you're optimistic, the delay could quite possibly be BECAUSE Apple wanted to make sure that a G5/PPC970 system could run the demos properly, when they weren't saddled with adding CPU support to Jaguar last year.

Given the recent burst of Apple Legal attacks relating to the G5 at WWDC, I'm reasonably certain that something relating to the new systems will happen then. I'm just not expecting to see the systems arrive on people's doorsteps right away (and probably not until July or August).

The Placid Casual · Jun 12, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Commodus:

Given the recent burst of Apple Legal attacks relating to the G5 at WWDC, I'm reasonably certain that something relating to the new systems will happen then. I'm just not expecting to see the systems arrive on people's doorsteps right away (and probably not until July or August).

Do we have any actual evidence Apple Legal was involved at all? I am very sceptical.

It is the easiest thing to write Removed at the request.... on a site, but until I see the actual C&D letter, or hear the actuaal wording I won't believe it.

Spymac *cough* iWalk anyone?

As for 10.3.. it hasn't been seeded yet. Assuming it is very soon, that gives a 3 months beta test for it to be released in September... For me this is just too soon.

Eug · Jun 12, 2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by JB72:
I think CreativePro might be a good time to actually make the 970s available for sale.

I had mentioned in my Eug 970 speculation thread that CreativePro (aka MWNY) might make more sense for the 970, or else later. Apple is scheduled for a feature presentation on July 16, although as yet we don't know who is presenting.

ie. Present July 16. Say a machine can be ordered that day, for delivery in late August or early Sept., preferably with Panthwire. However, a 6-week delivery schedule still seems long, esp. considering you may have to add another couple of weeks to that.

They've only scheduled an hour for the presentation though.

An August launch still would make the most sense to me, but there are no big Mac conferences then in North America.

thunderous_funker · Jun 12, 2003, 07:02 PM

Why do people continue to insist that marketshare is a meaningful measure of a healthy business, but then ignore the inherent fallacy of comparing Apple to the entire PC industry combined?

Dell has roughly 17% market share.

HP-Compaq has roughtly 16%.

Apple maintains a spot in the top 10 of units sales each year.

Apple is profitable and has been so for a while now. It has money in the bank and has come through the lean period surprisingly well.

Fact is, there are a lot of PC companies that would kill to be in Apple's shoes from a business standpoint. You think Gateway targets iMacs in it's ads because they think Apple is irrelevant?

Talking about the triumphant march of the PC marketshare without taling about the dozens of companies that are going out of business or haemorrhaging cash and laying off employee right left misses the point entirely.

Every other PC company is struggling on a model of pennies/transaction and most of them are failing. Apple hasn't had to resort to that strategy to remain profitable.

awcopus · Jun 12, 2003, 07:27 PM

That which does not kill Mac users makes them stronger.

If WWDC really does just feature 10.3, look for a lackluster response from the crowd on that webcast. Actually, I'm picturing the crowd beginning to heckle (e.g., What the F---? Where the F--- are the new...) ) when suddenly the Quicktime stream goes to a "Technical Difficulties" screen with "Girl from Impanema" playing in the background.

tee hee hee

But honestly, Apple's got a problem here. New Macs are intensely anticipated because the company's pro hardware offerings have just been so profoundly lacking for a few years. There's a mix of excitement and anxiety about these machines..."hope it's really fast" and "hope it isn't underwhelming".

If new PowerMacs aren't released at WWDC, fair or not, people are going to be very upset with Apple and there will be a kind of ennui about the machines when they eventually emerge. There's fashionably late and then there's arriving after the party is over. The rumor sites have set up WWDC as "the grand ball." If 10.3 is homecoming queen, the new PowerMacs are the stud holding her hand.

Best thing Jobs can do if there are no machines is at least address the issue. It's not like sales of current PowerMacs could be much worse. He should just say, "look, the new PowerMacs that 10.3 will run on have the following specs, will be available on ___, and here's a preview of the performance boost you can expect. See here how it eats Wintel machines for lunch across the board, no longer just in very specific Altivec-enhanced functions. Isn't that just fabulous?"

Fingers, toes, balls, all crossed for pro dreams to come true on June 23rd.

awcopus · Jun 12, 2003, 07:30 PM

THUNDEROUS_FUNKER! YOU BE RIGHTEOUS!

Funking marketshare-obsessed people funk up my day.

Well said, man! Yes!

chrisutley · Jun 12, 2003, 11:39 PM

Any Mac user following the rumors that closely must know that getting their hopes up for new desktops at the WWDC would be foolish. It could happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

"...there will be a kind of ennui about the machines when they eventually emerge."

I strongly disagree. Will people be bummed if they don't get annouced at the WWDC? You bet. However, when the new boxes do show up either now or later, the Mac community will grab their credit cards with glee.

Originally posted by awcopus:
That which does not kill Mac users makes them stronger.

If WWDC really does just feature 10.3, look for a lackluster response from the crowd on that webcast. Actually, I'm picturing the crowd beginning to heckle (e.g., What the F---? Where the F--- are the new...) ) when suddenly the Quicktime stream goes to a "Technical Difficulties" screen with "Girl from Impanema" playing in the background.

tee hee hee

But honestly, Apple's got a problem here. New Macs are intensely anticipated because the company's pro hardware offerings have just been so profoundly lacking for a few years. There's a mix of excitement and anxiety about these machines..."hope it's really fast" and "hope it isn't underwhelming".

If new PowerMacs aren't released at WWDC, fair or not, people are going to be very upset with Apple and there will be a kind of ennui about the machines when they eventually emerge. There's fashionably late and then there's arriving after the party is over. The rumor sites have set up WWDC as "the grand ball." If 10.3 is homecoming queen, the new PowerMacs are the stud holding her hand.

Best thing Jobs can do if there are no machines is at least address the issue. It's not like sales of current PowerMacs could be much worse. He should just say, "look, the new PowerMacs that 10.3 will run on have the following specs, will be available on ___, and here's a preview of the performance boost you can expect. See here how it eats Wintel machines for lunch across the board, no longer just in very specific Altivec-enhanced functions. Isn't that just fabulous?"

Fingers, toes, balls, all crossed for pro dreams to come true on June 23rd.

awcopus · Jun 13, 2003, 12:42 AM

Chris, I concede that I wasn't clear. What I'm getting at is that the higher people's expectations are the harder they're going to crash when those expectations aren't met. Right now people are rumor-mongering about two dual configurations in the mid and high end machines being available at or soon after WWDC. So let's say the event comes and goes with no new Macs...and then when they are released, only the high-end is a duallie. People are going to be sh---ing themselves, pardon my French. Fair or not, people are going to freak out. They'll buy, but not with the same enthusiasm as they would if the rumors are accurate.

I will reach for my credit card with glee if the machines are available for preorder at WWDC. But if I have to wait a couple of months, I'll just be reaching for it with desperation.

Whatever. I'm completely overhyped, tag-teamed by me, myself, and I....and macwhispers, eweek, appleinsider, macosrumors, thinksecret...and this little gnome that lives in my left ear and keeps saying things like "HYPERTRANSPORT."

DrBoar · Jun 13, 2003, 03:41 AM

Apple market share
If the Mac was running the same programs as everybody else money in the bank would be more important than market share. However, with Macintosh not runnning Windows it matters a lot. With the markat share dropping at 3% it means that the the reason to develop mac applications goes down a lot. With less software less reason to buy a mac.

terrancew_hod · Jun 13, 2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by DrBoar:
Apple market share
If the Mac was running the same programs as everybody else money in the bank would be more important than market share. However, with Macintosh not runnning Windows it matters a lot. With the markat share dropping at 3% it means that the the reason to develop mac applications goes down a lot. With less software less reason to buy a mac.

Exactly. More market share means more software, more places to get mac products, more consideration by software and hardware vendors to support the mac (and make their feature list more on par with the PC product--Quicken and Quickbooks for example), etc.

I used to have an Amiga, it was a great machine and did things that at the time Apple and PCs didn't do. But no one wrote software for it, then it became harder to find things for it. Market share dwindled signicantly enough for Commodore to close its doors. Granted there are people that still support the machine today in Europe, but a computer company cannot truly be profitable if it has no marketshare.

So it's in Apple's best interest to do what it can to bring more people in it's OS.

Terrance

awcopus · Jun 13, 2003, 09:35 AM

A few more observations on the marketshare front.

You guys are looking at overall percentages instead of overall numbers. Apple's user base currently numbers over twenty million users, or so I've read. Maybe this represents a pathetic "percentage" of the overall market, but let's look into this a bit further. When we do we'll see that Apple has a significant percentage of the DTP/graphic design market (now about to be locked down with Quark's release). They also have a significant and growing percentage of the video editing and music-making market. Education used to be virtually locked up, but they're still a big player in that area. Apple is the computing platform in the Biotech field as well, believe it or not. The Stores show that they are committed to attracting new consumer users. In NYC, I see Gateway stores empty and on the verge of closing, whereas the Apple SOHO store bustles with busty beauties.

I don't know the numbers, but it would be interesting to find out if Apple's market share is decreasing at a rate slower than the overall market of computer-owners is increasing. If that's the case, Apple's doing okay. It sure seems to be okay. UT2003 came out yesterday, Quark is coming next week. There's plenty of software available for the Mac for consumers and pros. Somebody's making enough money for it to be worth their while, and I don't feel the lack.

**

It would be a really interesting paradigm shift were Apple to abandon industrial design OR put it to Ive's considerable genius to work building the least-expensive-to-manufacture machines on the planet without sacrificing quality. That would be interesting. Imagine eMacs that start at $300 and top out at $600, iMacs that start at $500 and top out at $1000, Pro Macs that start at $800 and top out at $2000. Who wouldn't buy a Mac then, right?

Yeah right. Apple would still be up against the whole "exclusivity of the OS" wall. Business would be a little more receptive maybe, but the cost of repurchasing all of that software would be prohibitive for most. And guess what, if Apple makes its OS non-platform specific....the company's days would be numbered.

Would enough new people buy Macs to compensate for the lost revenue from people like me who buy Macs pretty much no matter what (but now would be giving the company a lot less money) and further to enable them to actually enjoy the benefits of increased "market share." Look at what the razor thin margins have done to revenues of companies in the PC world. They have NO R&D budgets. They're going out of business. No, this path would be very near to suicidal for Apple.

SNOB ALERT: At the end of the day, Apple is a unique company with a unique user base. We willingly spend more for the Apple experience. Our machines are slower than PCs, we don't have access to as many software titles/games, but we have other compensations. Our hardware is beautiful, our OS is elegant and powerful, and for some reason our computing experience "just works" for us. In our typical fields of endeavor, Apple enjoys prominence for its affordability, and because it sort of, well, co-parented entire industries, like DTP (Aldus and Quark) and biotech-modeling (BLAST). It's revolutionizing other industries, with programs like FCP and, of all things, iTunes.

Honestly, the primary things I would change about Apple are its Pro Mac lineup and I'd make the OS snappier. And what do you know?

, I LOVE APPLE! The alternatives are simply unacceptable to me. END SNOB ALERT

awcopus · Jun 13, 2003, 10:00 AM

Oh yeah, for those looking for more good Apple news, even if it's just rumor stuff....

http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers...ves/000072.php

Amped! Why is it June 13th? That means the 10-day countdown to June 23rd has officially begun...WOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!

P.S. Don't forget Father's Day.

Glasspusher · Jun 13, 2003, 04:00 PM

You know what's scary? That Dell spends more on R&D (total $$$) than Apple, and look what crap they have to show for it. They buy their chipsets from intel and their OS from M$. Must be putting it all in to printer R&D

Nebrie · Jun 13, 2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by awcopus:
Oh yeah, for those looking for more good Apple news, even if it's just rumor stuff....

http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers...ves/000072.php

Amped! Why is it June 13th? That means the 10-day countdown to June 23rd has officially begun...WOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!

P.S. Don't forget Father's Day.

Can people please stop posting links to Macwhispers in every single thread?

kupan787 · Jun 13, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Glasspusher:
You know what's scary? That Dell spends more on R&D (total $$$) than Apple, and look what crap they have to show for it. They buy their chipsets from intel and their OS from M$. Must be putting it all in to printer R&D

But I wonder what percentage is spent by both. Since Dell makes way more than Apple does, it would make sense that they spend more money here and there. However, I would bet that % wise, Apple spends more.

But that still brings up the point of what Dell is R&Ding...

awcopus · Jun 13, 2003, 06:41 PM

Dell is going after HP in the printing space. Much of that money is to ramp up their new printer business. Otherwise, maybe they're getting smart and putting money into industrial design. Should be interesting to watch Dell products for signs of the R&D impact.

Maybe they just use this spending as a write off?

Anyway, taking a break from following Mac stuff for the weekend. <Wipes brow, head's out.>

kupan787 · 08:51 PM

Originally posted by awcopus:
Dell is going after HP in the printing space. Much of that money is to ramp up their new printer business. Otherwise, maybe they're getting smart and putting money into industrial design. Should be interesting to watch Dell products for signs of the R&D impact.

Maybe they just use this spending as a write off?

Anyway, taking a break from following Mac stuff for the weekend. <Wipes brow, head's out.>

What is interesting is I saw a tv show that talked about Michael Dell (don't ask why it was on, or why I watched it...). They mentioned that Dell's R&D budget was very, very little, and that that could come back to bite them in the asses. Could things have changed? I think the show aired about a year ago (it was right after the HP/Compaq merger). Does any one have some "real" numbers to post (I am too lazy to go looking for myself

)

Eug · Jun 13, 2003, 08:56 PM

Apple enjoys prominence for its affordability, and because it sort of, well, co-parented entire industries, like DTP (Aldus and Quark) and biotech-modeling (BLAST).

BLAST began on Unix and was later ported to OS X.

rm199 · Jun 13, 2003, 11:41 PM

Whatever R&D Dell spent on making some of their PCs silent definitely worked... the quietcase line is dead quiet.. Also have a look at the Dimension XPS, the new games machine. I'll definitely be buying the latest spec version when Half Life 2 is released.

RM

Superchicken · Jun 14, 2003, 12:35 AM

Dell has to have a higher R&D budget how do you think they keep buying the new Macs to take appart and rip off concepts from?

JB72 · Jun 14, 2003, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by rm199:
Whatever R&D Dell spent on making some of their PCs silent definitely worked... the quietcase line is dead quiet..

I have heard they are pretty quiet. This is one area where Apple really dropped the ball. And it's something you'd think Apple would be leading the way in. I'm not sure if Jobs didn't, at some point, forget the importance of having a good desktop in the product line. Desktops are like the backbone of any computer platform.

Hopefully their next desktops will bring some innovative ways to keep the noise levels down.

digi-jj · Jun 14, 2003, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by rm199:
Whatever R&D Dell spent on making some of their PCs silent definitely worked... the quietcase line is dead quiet.. Also have a look at the Dimension XPS, the new games machine. I'll definitely be buying the latest spec version when Half Life 2 is released.

RM

why not build one yourself and save $1000?

MindFad · Jun 14, 2003, 01:14 PM

Is it really too much to hope for a dual 970 off the bat? Why does moki have to shoot down our hopes.

rm199 · Jun 14, 2003, 07:48 PM

Build one? Not up my alley really, I prefer a boxed product. One of the main reasons I like the mac platform.

RM

jcadam · Jun 16, 2003, 05:32 PM

I've never seen the rumor-mill so hepped up on crack-cocaine before. Even I'm starting to believe in the 970 at WWDC....

Steve Jobs ought to know that if the 970 PowerMacs aren't ready @ WWDC, he at leasts needs to ANNOUNCE something. A simple "We are developing 970-based PowerMacs which should be ready by the end of the year" at a MINIMUM. Maybe he could talk about the benefits of the 970 processor for an hour to kill time and take everybody's mind off the fact that he doesn't have any new hardware to showcase.

snerdini · Jun 16, 2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by jcadam:
I've never seen the rumor-mill so hepped up on crack-cocaine before. Even I'm starting to believe in the 970 at WWDC....

Steve Jobs ought to know that if the 970 PowerMacs aren't ready @ WWDC, he at leasts needs to ANNOUNCE something. A simple "We are developing 970-based PowerMacs which should be ready by the end of the year" at a MINIMUM. Maybe he could talk about the benefits of the 970 processor for an hour to kill time and take everybody's mind off the fact that he doesn't have any new hardware to showcase.

acadian · Jun 16, 2003, 07:22 PM

To that end, did Steve not mention at an investors meeting a way back that Apple would be speaking of it's relationship with Moto in the near future? Maybe WWDC will be the venue for such a "discussion" rather than an actual product release.

rm199 · Jun 16, 2003, 07:29 PM

I'm not convinced SJ will make it out of WWDC alive if there is no hardware...

RM

Taipan · Jun 16, 2003, 07:36 PM

Hi!

Just a quick remark regarding Apple's marketshare: I read last week (don't remember exactly, I think it was a German Mac magazine) that the 3% are based on sales. So, if you take into account that the average Mac has a much longer life span than the average PC, the actual percentage of Mac users is much higher, probably somewhere about 10%.

Eug · Jun 16, 2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Taipan:
Hi!

Just a quick remark regarding Apple's marketshare: I read last week (don't remember exactly, I think it was a German Mac magazine) that the 3% are based on sales. So, if you take into account that the average Mac has a much longer life span than the average PC, the actual percentage of Mac users is much higher, probably somewhere about 10%.

Wishful thinking at best.

awcopus · Jun 16, 2003, 09:07 PM

Following the rumors is less expensive than crack cocaine and about as nerve-wracking.

I would feel more strung out waiting for the 970s to arrive if it weren't for FCP4, which is SO F--KING SWEET that I've all but forgotten what this thread was all about in the first place. That is until I go to render....and then I remember....I need a faster Mac yesterday.

The fact that Apple's hardware guy is going to be speaking at the Expo in July leads me to the following conclusion. Jobs will announce the new hardware, which will start shipping around the time of the new Expo. We'll see the machines at WWDC, but they will only be taking orders. Nothing will be shipping right away. WWDC will remain properly focused on Panther. The full-throttle PR debut of the machines will be at the Expo, by which time some of us will already have received the new machines, which will only then reach the masses "in quantity".

After this long of a wait, given the epic scope of Apple's pro-line debacle, I don't think Apple would deny Jobs....or rather that Jobs would deny himself... the opportunity to debut these Macs and introduce their underlying tech-breakthroughs personally. But it also seems unlikely that Apple will have the machines ready to ship, if in fact there will be two dual-chip configs in the lineup (fingers, toes, eyes, balls, all crossed), owing to chip supply constraints.

So a week from tonight, we'll know! WOOO HOOO!

BTW, FCP4 is the most exciting app suite I've ever seen. Apple is leaving the competition in the dust with the creativity-unleashing power of this thing. Just inspiring stuff. And solid. And extreme. Love it...LOVE IT!

osxisfun · Jun 16, 2003, 09:35 PM

the live fonts are way cool.

a-maazing

JB72 · Jun 17, 2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by awcopus:
Following the rumors is less expensive than crack cocaine and about as nerve-wracking.

I would feel more strung out waiting for the 970s to arrive if it weren't for FCP4, which is SO F--KING SWEET that I've all but forgotten what this thread was all about in the first place. That is until I go to render....and then I remember....I need a faster Mac yesterday.

Haha I'm with yoou there. But I don't know how I'm going to hold up once a 64 bit version of FCP is available.

Rand · Jun 17, 2003, 12:44 PM

new macs from German retailer:

ready to ship!

check it out

PurdueRPh · Jun 17, 2003, 01:42 PM

Did every body see this picture that was on MacRumors? (If no picture shows up below, the picture might have been taken down)

I wonder if this is the new Powermac or not.

dazzla · Jun 17, 2003, 03:00 PM

Yeah, someone just posted that on Neowin. It does look kinda crap, very much like a mock up. Much unlike the macbidouille leak when the mirror drives appeared. That was a photo on a production line, this just looks stupid.

oivindi · Jun 17, 2003, 03:03 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rand:
[B]new macs from German retailer:

ready to ship!

***

That�s rather conclusive evidence, isn�t it?

Or...did they just buy the hype?

Goodness gracious. Seems like the 23 is months away. If Steve J. doesn�t introduce something new I think we will be hearing excited heads popping from disappointment all over the world.

*pop*

/�ivind/

dazzla · Jun 17, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by PurdueRPh:
Did every body see this picture that was on MacRumors? (If no picture shows up below, the picture might have been taken down)

I wonder if this is the new Powermac or not.

Down already haha

OwlBoy · Jun 17, 2003, 03:48 PM

/me passes out after geting a fresh injection of Pre-WWDC mania.

-Owl

Jonesy · Jun 17, 2003, 04:45 PM

Sorry. Find it too hard to believe that Johnathon Ive could design that. Anyway is it supposed to be a single slot-loading drive in the front? I hardly think we would go to one internal drive from the MDD's two.

If this is real I hope it looks better in real-life. It looks so cheap and nasty.

AlfaMunky · Jun 17, 2003, 04:53 PM

Fake...

I truly don't believe that this is the next Pro Mac Tower.

CIA · Jun 17, 2003, 05:15 PM

Ehhhhhh New case design? Don't like it. Quicksilvers are still the best designed case. I'm more concerned with the new case's guts anyway....

MasonMcD · Jun 17, 2003, 06:01 PM

I think this marks a move to a more enterprise-friendly computer. Anyone try to aggregate G4s with the protruding handles? Pain in the butt.

Muuuuuch easier to rack or cluster if a standard size. This was actually probably a request from some enterprise customers, if you ask me - "make it more like the rest of our stuff in the server room"

DNA man · Jun 17, 2003, 06:04 PM

That case isn't' real! Pass me that guide dog and white stick as I 'll have to blind myself inorder to use that tower

Eug · Jun 17, 2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by MasonMcD:
I think this marks a move to a more enterprise-friendly computer. Anyone try to aggregate G4s with the protruding handles? Pain in the butt.

Muuuuuch easier to rack or cluster if a standard size. This was actually probably a request from some enterprise customers, if you ask me - "make it more like the rest of our stuff in the server room"

Xserve.

Ratm · Jun 17, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
Wishful thinking at best.

http://www.oscast.com/stories/storyReader$419

MasonMcD · Jun 17, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
Xserve.

But most enterprises can't just order Xserves and be done with it.

Racks aren't just for 1Us or 4Us. And the current PMs really are non-standard.

graphics84 · Jun 17, 2003, 06:44 PM

that case is WEAK!

no way...

first I don't belive it real...

but if it was there must be something that a bad grayscale doesn't show to make it cool...

cuz it's not...

lame