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Simon · Aug 21, 2003, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by superfula:
Pot. Kettle. Black. It's a general rule of thumb, that when you start preaching you shouldn't accuse someone of something and then do it yourself. It makes you look...well...not good.

Wow, the bomb.

Man, I was serious. I've had some good private chats with Cipher. I'm 100% easy with him. I just thought he was overestimating his own opinion and giving some people too much spanking.

That's all.

No preaching. No black kettle pot. Nice try.

ebuddy · Aug 21, 2003, 09:42 AM

I cannot consider myself ignorant because I have experience with 2 macs. My first mac was a first gen 233mhz Tangerine iMac. This was my only computer for two years. Literally not one problem. Bought first gen 500mhz Tibook and gave first gen iMac to wife. Had one problem with dark screen on Tibook, a week and a half later Tibook returned to me (not one dime and this can happen to any generation of machine-loose ribbon or some such thing) and has worked flawlessly for two more years. Now on waitinglist for dual 2ghz G5 and will give Tibook to wife. I might also mention that the children use this Tibook almost as much as I do and I can assure you the 12 and 9 yr old are not as careful w/ this machine as am i yet, no problems whatsoever.(wouldn't put several thousand dollars down on a gamble!) The children are now fighting over who uses the 5 yr old first gen iMac. (built like a brick shxxhouse). My experience on first generation Apple machinery is 2 for 2. Not bad at all and from two different retailers. I think it should also be noted that the G5 is a revision. A complete revision and has cost several billion dollars to redesign and implement the new technology. I am confident that this machine will carry the same reliability as the two prior. In fact, I would say more care has gone into the G5 than any to date. This G5 and it's claim of WORLD'S FASTEST PERSONAL COMPUTER will attract a lot of "computer geeks." People that otherwise would not have thought of Apple. Apple touting it's new speeds simply cannot afford lemons. I reserve judgement 'til my computer ships, but from simple, solid experience, I am not concerned about my order!

awcopus · Aug 21, 2003, 10:12 AM

Back in March 1997, I purchased a Panasonic DVD player, the first on the market. I think it was the A30. Friends wondered why I was buying a first generation player for a completely unproven format.

They were even more freaked out when I returned the Panasonic and purchased Sony's DVPS7000, a $1200 first-gen high-end player.

I still use the Sony today, and have observed with shock initially and dismal resignation that now the DVD player market, even the $1000 players, are made with cheaper materials than my Sony and are generally not much better performers. In this instance, early adoption has benefitted me greatly. I can think of a few other instances where I would have been better off waiting. Whatever. For some kinds of purchases, I'm likely to be first on board.

***

There are early adopters and then there are varying degrees of more cautious buyer types. The one group trying to talk the other into adopting its psychological frame of reference is generally futile.

P.S. BOLD prediction: The first gen G5s are going to perform absolutely incredibly using real world applications. Word will spread quickly, especially about the duallie running dual-aware apps and Panther, that it is scary how much faster and quieter it is than the MDD G4s it replaces. Issues will be minor, most will be reversible, and those that aren't will be more than tolerable in light of the machines' performance.

Cipher13 · 12:22 PM

Originally posted by saru boy:
That's alot of posts.

Re. revisions, my favorite is rev. O negative.

All kidding aside, at what point would you consider something to be a rev B? Does Apple come out and say "this is rev B"? Or is it when people start noticing that there's a new power supply that doesn't catch on fire?

When the machine is revised, the first time around; thereby making the machine the second version in a line, or first revision.

I can't tell if you're trying to be a smartass or not. Are you, or not?

Originally posted by Simon:
Meaty. But foolish.

Wrong. It is your problem.

Ah common Cipher. Stop acting like a dick. He clearly mentioned "from the posts he saw". You fired a lot of ammo against OS X and you hate Rev A's. Everybody knows that and your point has no doubt been made.

We all know you have ten quadrillion posts and you sacrificed your life for macnn, and normally we're grateful for that because some intelligent stuff has come from ya and you're easy on private chat.

BUT, you have stated your opinion. Others have stated theirs. And I dare to say both have valid points. It seems a matter of preference. So stop acting like a spoiled baby (attacking others personally and trying to impress everybody with muchomacho meaty big-boy statements). You're not wrong, he isn't either. The truth is sometimes not all that simple. Respect that like a man.

Foolish? No.

My problem? No. I have no problem with it. It's all yours.

Believe me.

Blah, blah, blah. I'm not trying to impress anybody. I'm not the kind of person that really gives a sh!t about impressing people; I'm rather indifferent about what other people think of me, as I'm sure you know.

I'll admit that often there are two sides to an argument; but when it comes to this one, I'm right.

Just you wait and see.

Don't wanna accept that? Fine, I don't care.

I'm voicing my opinion; nothing more. Naturally. How can one voice more than their simple opinion?

Revision A machines are always flawed, to a point.

Sure, lots of users may be happy; but there are always bugs.

Maybe they're not major. Maybe they don't effect most users. But they're present.

I've never been impressed with a revision A machine apart from the first iBook, which also had its fair share of flaws.

It's only natural that revision Bs are superior... of course. But I consider it worth the wait for a revision B before buying, given the level of some flaws in machines.

Come on, think of a recent machine, a revision A, that was perfect.

Smurf? ATA bug.
Yikes!? G3 with a G4 daughtercard.
TiBook? Scalding hot, broken hinges, bad AirPort, bubbling paint, bad optical drives.
AlBook 12? Scalding hot, again (I don't know much more about the machine).

I can't think of a revision A in recent history that wasn't fatally flawed, in my opinion.

saru boy · Aug 22, 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I can't tell if you're trying to be a smartass or not. Are you, or not?

Nope, I'm just asking a question.

cwasko · Aug 22, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
NEVER get Rev. A.

Yea, because they *will* have bugs right? They just have to... Not a chance in hell that they can't. Oh... wait, I had a Rev A Beige, Rev B&W, and a Rev A 17"... Damn.

The Rev A beige just came out of commission as an email, DNS, and FTP server. 5 Years... not bad. Not a single problem.

The B&W, is now the email, DNS, and FTP server. Its been upgraded to a 450G4 and runs like a champ. Not a single problem there either.

The 17", well, nothing wrong with it either. Running just fine and I've had it since March 21.

But, I guess I should expect something to go wrong soon though. After all its been 5 years for the beige, 4.5 years for the B&W, and 5 months with the 17. I guess I should sell them now.

Simon · 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:

[snip]

Come on, think of a recent machine, a revision A, that was perfect.

Smurf? ATA bug.
Yikes!? G3 with a G4 daughtercard.

BS. That's not a flaw, that's a design. Nobody was deceived. If you argue like that every next evolution will offer more. Moot point.

TiBook? Scalding hot, broken hinges, bad AirPort, bubbling paint, bad optical drives.

Heat? Moot again. You claim right below the 12" has the same problem. Even though it has a two year younger design. Obviously not a rev A flaw, but a general problem that the G4s in PowerBooks dissipate heat too badly onto the case.

AlBook 12? Scalding hot, again (I don't know much more about the machine).

Hearsay. I have it here in front of me. It's no way near hot.

And if you don't agree with the urban legend theory fine. Still moot point since the Ti had the same problem 2 years earlier, so no rev A problem.

Sorry to say, but I think your examples fail to stand only slightest analysis by the more experienced Mac users.

I can't think of a revision A in recent history that wasn't fatally flawed, in my opinion.

You fail to understand that such a list could also be put up for rev B machines. You can always find flaws "in your opinion" if you think hard enough.

That's the reason this debate is so useless. It's just too much a question of preference.

Now you might say that's wrong and rev B machines are better. Fine. Why? Because people bought rev A, they had some problems, bitched about it to Apple and Apple fixed it. So then, please STFU and let people be guinea-pigs for us so we get decent rev B machines.

I think you fail to see these things. But I doubt it's a matter of insight, I somehow get the impression that you're deliberately trying to be stubborn and bossy. Are you having a bad week?

Rolnif · Aug 22, 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by axlepin:
what are thoughts on whether to buy a Dual 2Ghz G5 now, or to wait until the 2nd generation?

How likely are there to be bugs? Are there aspects of the 1st-Gen design that makes sense to wait for 2nd-Generation?

thanks for input!

axle

I'm waiting until next year.

denim · Aug 22, 2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by The Ancient One:
Sadly, there is some substance to the Rev A argument, but, in my experience, it only applies to the very first machines off the assembly line.

Agreed. I got what turned out to be an early "beige" G3, back in March 1998. It came with a Rev A motherboard. The shortcomings of that board and ROM set weren't obvious until MacOS X came out. Now I've upgraded it all I can, and I want a G5. But I'll wait a few months before I jump.

RooneyX · Aug 22, 2003, 06:17 PM

Rev. B will come with Panther and perhaps also the wireless keyboard and mouse. New monitors too. All of the peripherals will have the new aluminium look. Imagine they add the backlight to the Power Mac keyboards too!

bigpoppa206 · Aug 22, 2003, 07:01 PM

http://www.digidesign.com/compato/osx/g5/

A lot of Pro Tools users will be waiting also!

denim · 10:30 PM

Cipher, one thing to keep in mind is that there's always something newer, better, faster, coming down the pike. The important point here is that these G5 models are a quantum change from their predecessors. They're what I've been waiting for.

The confusion comes when people like me talk about "Rev A" meaning the motherboard revision, and people like you talk of "rev A" meaning the reference to the model of the whole machine, since Apple stopped coming up with model names. I want to skip the first rev of these models, but I almost certainly will jump before they get speed jumped to the next level.

I wish Apple would come up with some simple model names/numbers. Just don't go back to the situation before where each retailer had their own and they were tough to compare. Maybe something like "G5 2003/1.6GHz", or use the internal project names like with the Wallstreet and Pismo and Yikes. We went from a superabundance to a total drought.

wadesworld · Aug 22, 2003, 11:59 PM

first machine I'll consider will be next year's dual 3GHz model (promised by Steve in the keynote)

Steve promised a 3Ghz processor next year, NOT a 3 Ghz machine.

If it takes 12 months to get the new processor out, it could easily take 18-24 months before a new machine ships using that processor.

I have no doubt there will be a 3 Ghz machine. But, it could easily be, say January of 2005 before you see it.

It may come earlier, but nobody should get their hopes up thinking Steve said they'd ship a 3 Ghz Mac within 12 months. That's not what he said.

(And he also didn't say it would be a dual machine. In fact, he didn't talk about a machine at all)

Wade

davecom · Aug 23, 2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I have 18000 posts - you'd need to have seen a lot of them to be able to make any statement regarding the content of the majority thereof. :)

I'm sorry, but you get to a point where it's just sad. Nothing to be proud of. Go outside...

frankt1950 · Aug 23, 2003, 01:19 AM

I got excited and ordered a B&W G3 400 Revision A when they were released. That's the last Revision A blunder I will ever make.

jcadam · Aug 23, 2003, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by frankt1950:
I got excited and ordered a B&W G3 400 Revision A when they were released. That's the last Revision A blunder I will ever make.

What?? Don't tell me you want to use more than one hard drive.

Cipher13 · Aug 23, 2003, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
BS. That's not a flaw, that's a design. Nobody was deceived. If you argue like that every next evolution will offer more. Moot point.

It was an incredibly flawed design. No?

Originally posted by Simon:
Heat? Moot again. You claim right below the 12" has the same problem. Even though it has a two year younger design. Obviously not a rev A flaw, but a general problem that the G4s in PowerBooks dissipate heat too badly onto the case.

Moot? Hardly. Even if so, what about the OTHER flaws I mentioned that you declined to comment on? Hmm? How is it moot? The machines became practically unusable as a LAP top computer.

The 12" is a Rev. A. It has the same flaw (heat). Still a flaw, even if it has been repeated... it was fixed in the Ti's, no? Yes. It was. It will be fixed in the later 12" PBs too.

Originally posted by Simon:
Hearsay. I have it here in front of me. It's no way near hot.

And if you don't agree with the urban legend theory fine. Still moot point since the Ti had the same problem 2 years earlier, so no rev A problem.

Sorry to say, but I think your examples fail to stand only slightest analysis by the more experienced Mac users.

They're unusably hot. The palmrests become incredibly uncomfortable to use. Your machine must be special.

Really? They seem to be standing up fine to your bombardment. Keep it comin'.

Originally posted by Simon:
You fail to understand that such a list could also be put up for rev B machines. You can always find flaws "in your opinion" if you think hard enough.

That's the reason this debate is so useless. It's just too much a question of preference.

Fine, you go and compile a similar list of Rev B problems. Then we'll see how much creedence to give to your statement.

Originally posted by Simon:
Now you might say that's wrong and rev B machines are better. Fine. Why? Because people bought rev A, they had some problems, bitched about it to Apple and Apple fixed it. So then, please STFU and let people be guinea-pigs for us so we get decent rev B machines.

I think you fail to see these things. But I doubt it's a matter of insight, I somehow get the impression that you're deliberately trying to be stubborn and bossy. Are you having a bad week?

Nope, great week. Just got an awesome revision B iPod, and a revision E iBook

I have to look after more computers than I could count at work; I've seen these things en masse. It isn't a matter of insight, nor luck.

The revision A problem is real.

But yeah... I'll stop bitching so people still guinea pig themselves

Cipher13 · Aug 23, 2003, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by davecom:
I'm sorry, but you get to a point where it's just sad. Nothing to be proud of. Go outside...

Haha. Believe me, my life is more fun than yours.

Originally posted by cwasko:

Yea, because they *will* have bugs right? They just have to... Not a chance in hell that they can't. Oh... wait, I had a Rev A Beige, Rev B&W, and a Rev A 17"... Damn.

The Rev A beige just came out of commission as an email, DNS, and FTP server. 5 Years... not bad. Not a single problem.

The B&W, is now the email, DNS, and FTP server. Its been upgraded to a 450G4 and runs like a champ. Not a single problem there either.

The 17", well, nothing wrong with it either. Running just fine and I've had it since March 21.

But, I guess I should expect something to go wrong soon though. After all its been 5 years for the beige, 4.5 years for the B&W, and 5 months with the 17. I guess I should sell them now.

That's right. They will have bugs.

Wow. An email server. I'm sure that *really* tests the machine, huh? Anyway, I never mentioned old-world machines; if you wanna get real technical, that machine is NOT a revision A, given its foundations. Do you really wanna contest this with me?

Your smurf... you sure it's a Rev A? If so, guess what - you can't use the second IDE channel. **** hey? Just because YOU haven't run into the bug doesn't mean it isn't PRESENT.

I don't have enough knowledge of 17" PowerBooks to comment, so rather than criticise unduly, I won't respond to that. Just you wait and see, though.

Originally posted by frankt1950:
I got excited and ordered a B&W G3 400 Revision A when they were released. That's the last Revision A blunder I will ever make.

Originally posted by saru boy:
Nope, I'm just asking a question.

Okay, cool.

Swift · Aug 23, 2003, 08:09 AM

Because they've fixed the flaws in Rev. A but they're working on Rev C, which is really Rev A of A.01, so don't buy that one either. Wait a minute, why buy a G5, there's going to be a G6 some day. If I had the money, I'd be on the waiting list right now. Maybe I could be persuaded to wait a few weeks to hear reports of "fatal flaws" if there are any, but I wouldn't ever categorically 'not buy Rev A." I bought Rev A of the SE/30, and Rev A of the iMac, and... I got an iMac DV SE because it was 400 mHZ! And you could play DVDs! Now I have my Quicksilver G4, but it's kind of long in the tooth, you know?

greggers · Aug 23, 2003, 08:36 AM

i think the way this topic is going is borderline retarded.

it seems like everyone who is in favor of waiting for the revision to the G5 is doing so because what they have is fine. is there anyone who really, really wants a G5 but feels they have gotten screwed in the past with a version A machine?

yeah, i agree with you cipher on one thing: getting the first version, you are almost guarenteed to have bugs. but lets put it in perspective here---it isn't a car and your not putting your life on it. I personally would never buy a new model year (car) right as it came out---it just isn't worth it. however, a computer is much different.

i bought a tibook right after the sf keynote where it was announced. yeah, it arrived and had trouble ejecting cds, yeah the back of the screen is flimsy and when pushed hard can cause dead pixels, yeah its hinge cracked and i had to hacksaw it off to open the lcd all the way. so what? i think the machine is fantastic and i still use it on a daily basis.

anyway, yeah you're taking a risk buying a G5. but that's the FUN part about buying things. life is more fun when you take personal initiative and not be a little bitch and let others do the work for you...*ahem*.

anyway, i'd buy it if i needed it.

daydreamer · Aug 23, 2003, 08:49 AM

I don't think the rev.B G5s (jan/feb?) will have any redesign inside or outside. Apple always keeps the design twice.. Rev C is probably going to have a retouched look inside and outside...

Simon · Aug 23, 2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The revision A problem is real.

It's your problem, not Apple's. And they could care less.

j/k

I agree with you that you can get screwed on a rev A machine. I haven't bought rev A's in about ten years now. But, I think your explantions are flawed. Saying that in Apple's history rev A's have been worse than for example rev C's is just plain BS.

While you play around with your plastic rev E iBook, I'm having fun with my lab's rev A PowerBook. While you have a cheap-looking, slow-bus, non-Altivec G3, I'll use the features of the faster bus and Altivec. So there, the way I phrased it it would look as if rev E vs. rev A sucked. Is that true? No.

This discussion is meaningless, really.

With time all Macs get better. Trying to make a philosophy out of that is ridiculous.

cwasko · Aug 23, 2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
That's right. They will have bugs.

Then by that logic so will Rev B, C, D...

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Wow. An email server. I'm sure that *really* tests the machine, huh? Anyway, I never mentioned old-world machines; if you wanna get real technical, that machine is NOT a revision A, given its foundations. Do you really wanna contest this with me?

Please show your ignorance more. My email server hosts about 10,000 email addresses. The DNS is for about 100 domains and the FTP is a back-up client for all the websites and databases. I'd say it tests thing out quite nicely. So, the Rev A myth only applies to the machines you say it does? How convenient.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Your smurf... you sure it's a Rev A? If so, guess what - you can't use the second IDE channel. **** hey? Just because YOU haven't run into the bug doesn't mean it isn't PRESENT.

I received it Feb 3 199 - so I'm quite sure its a Rev A. I've got 3 hard drives in it - all came installed by Apple. It would seem to me that the IDE problem is a bad design, not a bug. By that logic, then every computer Apple has made since the G4 has been a bad design - until the G5. But since its Rev A right now, it must suck and just has to be worse than the bad-designed G4s out there.

Additionally, this computer has taken over all the above tasks, its also running OSXS 10.2 and is a NetInfo master.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I don't have enough knowledge of 17" PowerBooks to comment, so rather than criticise unduly, I won't respond to that. Just you wait and see, though.

Yea. I'm waiting... You think something would show up after 5 months? I mean... its just not possible, in your mind, that a Rev A machine could run perfectly with no problems.

awcopus · Aug 23, 2003, 10:03 AM

Once upon a time, I had a friend. He was fond of saying that one of the things that matters most in our lives is the pursuit of excellence, which is attainable, not the pursuit of perfection, which is impossible.

My Cube isn't perfect. Neither is my iBook 600 or my Dual 1.42 (loud). There is a stuck pixel on my 23" Cinema Display. My Mom uses an iMacDVSE and loves it despite the somewhat less than crisp monitor. Dad's on a Cube with a whining HD, and I'll replace it but it will still be stuck with a less than ideal graphics card. He's not sweating this as he writes and surfs.

The common thread: These tools, each of them, are excellent for so many tasks. They just work. OS X is brilliant. A little slow but so solid. Panther's acceleration will make using each of these machines even better.

Ultimately, that friend of mine applied a standard of perfection to our relationship, and despite the fact that it was one of the best friendships either of us had ever had, he destroyed it.

Every Mac I've owned I've loved even as I've observed its idiosyncracies. I try to choose Macs based on as much information as possible, but I've been known to impulse buy a new Mac, just becaue it was too damn cool to not get (...sits back....remembers IIsi...).

Frankly, at the risk of sounding like an addict or fanatic, it's pretty tough to go wrong with a Mac. In most cases, you're going to be more than happy with your purchase. In the case of the G5, I seriously doubt that this message board will be flooded with complaints. Of course, there will be things. There always are. Even after all the revisions, there's going to be something.

Choose excellence. Choose the Mac you want.

justinkim · Aug 23, 2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
The rev. A TiBook was a complete piece of crap.The optical drive works as sporadically as a government employee,

Never had a problem with this

it ran hot enough to burn you if you used it as a LAP top,

Mine never ran any hotter than my 1GHz TiBook does

the paint peeled,

Never a problem for me.

the hinges were weak,

This was a problem, but Apple had mine fixed and back to me in three days.

and the AirPort reception would've been better if they'd enclosed the user in a faraday cage... heh.

The reception on my 1GHz TiBook is only slightly better.

The first G4 tower? The one that had a Smurf motherboard, with a G4 stuck in place of the G3 (practically)? No AGP, even...

Have one of these, too. Knew the specs when I bought it. No complaints because it did what it was supposed to and is still soldering on now as a music server.

...hmm? I could go on and on.

What? More FUD?

you can argue that Rev. A machines are fine, but you're simply showing your ignorance if you continue to do so.

Having owned two recent Rev. A machines, I don't think I'm speaking from a standpoint of ignorance.

bojangles · Aug 23, 2003, 11:13 AM

awcopus— well put.

My main computer is a rev. A beige G3/266. I never had any problems with him until X came out, and that was the 8GB limitation—which, I’m sure most of you know, is completely unrelated to his rev. A–ness. As it happened, we got a motherboard upgrade for Christmas, last year. This rev. B board gives us faster on-board graphics (Rage Pro vs. Rage II) and support for slave drives (which we have taken advantage of by installing a 48x24x48x CD-RW in one bay while leaving our stock 32x [which I got from a friend’s Yikes!] in the other).

Am I happy having the rev. B? Certainly. Would I still be happy with my rev. A? Presumably. Could I really stand to get a G5 (or at least a 1GHz G4 upgrade for my beige)? Indubitably, but it’s all in what you want. I am a marketing/graphics designer married to a web developer (whose site is about to go live), and we’re basically pleased with how well Jag 10.2.6, Photoshop 5.5, and many other programs run on our meager 266-MHz G3. Would faster be better? Of course it would. The question is whether we’d rather use our $2999 for a new G5 or for other things (eg. trying to adopt a baby).

Sure, rev. A’s are going to have problems from time to time. As has been mentioned many times in this thread, many computers have problems that need to be overcome. But ultimately, it doesn’t really matter if it’s a rev. A or a rev. Z; when (and if) you upgrade will always come down to where your priorities currently lie.

Just my 2�.

RooneyX · Aug 23, 2003, 11:27 AM

Rev. A TiBook was terrible. Please don't make excuses out of customer brand loyalty. It was hot, the optical drive needed replacing for many users,the paint came off, the graphics card didn't even support QE and therefore was the machine was badly supported within 2 years, and there were Powerbook G3s with more graphics memory.

I wasn't happy with TiBooks until my third, the 800. Finally it was cool. But this one still had the paint problem and needed servicing.

Now I have an Alu17. This has far fewer flaws. But it's not scratch proof even with moderate usage and careful handling as Apple claims. But otherwise this is the best Apple laptop I've used and is a Rev. A machine, the size is easy to get used to too.

Short Circuit · Aug 23, 2003, 12:17 PM

mh...

I used to be a systemsadministrator, I have never seen that rev.A units have had more problems then any othere units. Some B&W needed firmware updates, but so did the rev.A-C and rev. D-E (or F?) iMacs.

about the titaniums... I have a Ti 400MHz, no peeling paint, no bubbles, no battery falling out, or anything else. They had problems, not where in the scale where you might tell people not to buy them.

Sometimes the intial models of a generation have lesser features then the next, forinstance the first G4 had PCI graphics (note: they did not have a G3 motherboard, that is bullshit) instead of AGP, the first iMacs (up rev.D) dident have FireWire.

On the other hand, the first iMacs (revA-D) can be upgraded to a G4 or a G3 with FireWire, a feature that is missing from latter iMacs.

In my eyes the only things that happen in rev.A are in the initial production run, its not wherther they are rev.A or rev.B
Forinstance the first iMac G4s shipped here had the @ key printed somewhere else. the very first PowerBook G4 lacked a rubber strip that could make the battery fall out if you nudged it, that was fixed pretty fast, nowhere near the FUD some

user writes about here.

Im getting a dual G5 now. Even though I hate they ship with a fugly eMac keyboard.

If youre voried about faults, get AppleCare, its a pretty good price for 3years of warranty.

W

Short Circuit · Aug 23, 2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Rev. A TiBook was terrible. Please don't make excuses out of customer brand loyalty. It was hot, the optical drive needed replacing for many users,the paint came off, the graphics card didn't even support QE and therefore was the machine was badly supported within 2 years, and there were Powerbook G3s with more graphics memory.
...

You saw a PowerBook G3 with more VRAM then a G4 ?
please show me!

and as for Quarz Extreme, well thats progress for ya.

W

davlefler · Aug 23, 2003, 12:49 PM

Rev A or B, who cares. I have mine on order and will use it for a year and sell it like I always do. Macs retain their value great so the cost of upgrading is a lot less for me. I like to stay current but moving from my current 867 to 1.4 was not enough to warrant the money. Now, however, I will get the rev A and you others can sit and debate and wait for rev C or whatever. Geesh!

RooneyX · Aug 23, 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Short Circuit:
You saw a PowerBook G3 with more VRAM then a G4 ?
please show me!

and as for Quarz Extreme, well thats progress for ya.

W

Didn't the last PB G3 models have 16MBs of VRAM?

As for QE, it's just a shame that Apple released a graphics display model that failed to support a machine released less than a year and a half earlier. It isn't because of advancement of the OS, that's natural, it's because the specs for most graphics cards in Macs have always been several generations behind or of the lowest spec they can cram in. Take a look at the latest Power Macs. Again they're using budget graphics cards with bare minimum VRAM. That's a big Rev. A problem too that always gets fixed on later generations (but still lags behind compared to what they could offer).

Short Circuit · Aug 23, 2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Didn't the last PB G3 models have 16MBs of VRAM?...

No, the last G3 PowerBooks, with 400 / 500MHz only had 8MB as the G4. They accually had the same card, not that much of a progress...

W

samslaves · Aug 23, 2003, 03:22 PM

>>NEVER get Rev. A.

That's stupid.

I bought a PM9600MP many years ago. How many rev. of PM9600MP? One. The only one.

Buy a G5 rev.A if you need it. Buy a next rev. if you can wait (and I can't).

Poor Apple if all people would wait for a rev.B product!
Bye.
Sam

nek · 03:56 PM

I bought one of the original PowerMac G4s about 2 months after they were announced and a few weeks after they were speed downgraded.

Based on this purchase I would recommend waiting a few months. Shortly after I bought my G4, Apple upgraded the graphics card from Rage 128 to Rage 128 Pro and started including OS 9 instead of OS 8.6. If I lived in the US I could have gotten the Rage 128Pro for $20, but since I don't Apple just told me I was out of luck.

The fact that I cannot use a dual cpu upgrade in my G4 seems like a bad thing until you consider the cost of a dual cpu upgrade. The only problem I've had with my 4 year old G4 is the RAM from Apple failed. Then after my warranty ended the replacement RAM also failed.

My advice: wait for OS X 10.3

[edit]:
Since a few people keep stating that the original G4 only has PCI for graphics I thought I would correct that. Only the low-end G4 lacked AGP just like the current low-end G5 has PCI instead of PCI-X.

rlmorel · Aug 23, 2003, 05:59 PM

I have purchased three Rev. A machines from Apple, always top of the line (Mac SE, 9500, and DP500 AGP. Never have I had any "rev A problems". I have never been less than completely satisfied (well, maybe not satisfied with what you had to go through to replace the RAM in the 9500...)

Does that mean there won't be problems? No. But you have to admit, Apple does a good job, for the most part, with their hardware.

I am going to buy one of these. There is ALWAYS risk in buying anything new. But there is lots of benefit.

gc2488 · Aug 23, 2003, 07:26 PM

I bought the first version of the iBook -- a classic tangerine model that is still running wonderfully (albeit with 160MB RAM and a 30GB very quiet and fast hard disk drive). The iBook has been wonderful. It lacks Firewire which appeared later in the iBook evolution, but I still use the tangerine iBook mainly when I want a machine that is very very quiet.

The classic iBook, iMac and Macintosh computers are some of the few designs which used absolutely no cooling fans. I guess we could throw the G4 Cube in this category, as well!

To go off on this tangent of silent computing, I appreciate that Apple made an effort to make the G5 machines quiet, even though they needed cooling fans.

eggman · Aug 23, 2003, 07:31 PM

Yeah, I've never had Rev A problems, even thought I got an 8100 and an AGP 450 right out of the gate. Never had a problem with either of them... nor with the 15" TiBook that was bought a few months after release, but which is still apparently a Rev A.

Maybe I've just been lucky.

So... I figure that I don't do sky-diving. I don't bungee jump. I don't ride a chopper. I don't smoke. So I think I can afford to press my luck and take a risk now and then by buying Rev A Macs.

Heck, it isn't like these things don't have warranties.

It seems to me like risk assessment is a matter of personal values and there's no absolute right or wrong approach.

ABassCube · Aug 24, 2003, 12:58 AM

My only Rev. A Mac has been a dual 1 GHz MDD Power Mac G4. I'm not even sure this counts as Rev. A since the G4 Power Macs have been around forever, but I think it does as it was the architecture was significantly changed from the QuickSilver. Now generally this has been a great machine; by far the best Mac I've ever had. However, there was one very annoying problem that raised an uproar among Rev. A MDD owners: the noise. Now based on what other people have said, I believe mine happens to be one of the quieter ones, but it still gets annoyingly loud. With the next MDDs, the issue was significantly improved. Now yes, Apple did offer Rev. A MDD owners the quieter fan/power supply for "free" ($20 shipping and handling), but I was somewhat deceived. They had said I would be able to replace the power supply myself; however, I pretty much knew I'd be taking it to the Apple Store in SoHo, New York. The instructions looked pretty damn complex and if I screwed it up Apple would not be responsible. However, I was not counting on the genius from the Apple Store saying I would have to pay $60 for him to do it. Apparently this is because Apple for some stupid reason refuses to pay the geniuses at the Apple Stores for installing the new power supplies for people, so of course they're are going to charge people. I haven't yet gotten around to taking it in, as they say the turnaround is 48 hours and there hasn't been a period of time when I go without my Mac for that long. I'm finally going to take it in on Monday, but I really resent that I will have paid a total of $80 to get this problem fixed, especially when I paid $249 for AppleCare.

Now this is my only Rev. A experience, and as I said, aside from the noise issue it's been a great computer. But I've heard much worse horror stories from other people who have gotten Rev. A Macs. Now generally, Apple does a good job of fixing Rev. A issues, so I don't really see a real problem with getting a Rev. A G5. However, I would definitely suggest waiting until Panther comes out and is preinstalled, or at least until something is mentioned about an up-to-date program for users that get a G5 before Panther is released; right now, it appears that if you buy one you'll end up having to shell out the full $129 for Panther. Unless you desperately need a G5 right away (for example if your old pre-G4 Mac is close to unusable with OS X), I suggest waiting till Rev. B because the prices and specs will be a lot better. If you have an 800 MHz G4 or better you should be fine for another year or two, especially if you have a dual. In any case, you should at least wait until Panther is released.

Sorry if that post was a bit long. I had quite a bit on my mind.

Adam

Cipher13 · Aug 24, 2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Swift:
Because they've fixed the flaws in Rev. A but they're working on Rev C, which is really Rev A of A.01, so don't buy that one either. Wait a minute, why buy a G5, there's going to be a G6 some day. If I had the money, I'd be on the waiting list right now. Maybe I could be persuaded to wait a few weeks to hear reports of "fatal flaws" if there are any, but I wouldn't ever categorically 'not buy Rev A." I bought Rev A of the SE/30, and Rev A of the iMac, and... I got an iMac DV SE because it was 400 mHZ! And you could play DVDs! Now I have my Quicksilver G4, but it's kind of long in the tooth, you know?

You're a moron.

Originally posted by daydreamer:
I don't think the rev.B G5s (jan/feb?) will have any redesign inside or outside. Apple always keeps the design twice.. Rev C is probably going to have a retouched look inside and outside...

They will indeed have internal modifications, whether structurally, architecturally, or whatever.

Originally posted by Simon:
It's your problem, not Apple's. And they could care less.

j/k

I agree with you that you can get screwed on a rev A machine. I haven't bought rev A's in about ten years now. But, I think your explantions are flawed. Saying that in Apple's history rev A's have been worse than for example rev C's is just plain BS.

While you play around with your plastic rev E iBook, I'm having fun with my lab's rev A PowerBook. While you have a cheap-looking, slow-bus, non-Altivec G3, I'll use the features of the faster bus and Altivec. So there, the way I phrased it it would look as if rev E vs. rev A sucked. Is that true? No.

This discussion is meaningless, really.

With time all Macs get better. Trying to make a philosophy out of that is ridiculous.

No, my explanations are not flawed; rev A hardware has ineed been worse than your rev C examples.

You can't compare an iBook and a PowerBook - heh... they're different machines

That has nothing to do with revision history. So what is your point? Oh, and enjoy your hot, low-range (AP) rev A PowerBook. Your example is purely idiotic.

Originally posted by samslaves:
>>NEVER get Rev. A.

That's stupid.

I bought a PM9600MP many years ago. How many rev. of PM9600MP? One. The only one.

Buy a G5 rev.A if you need it. Buy a next rev. if you can wait (and I can't).

Poor Apple if all people would wait for a rev.B product!
Bye.
Sam

Again, your example is entirely flawed. That was then, this is now; Apple has changed the way they do things.

Your 9600 MP was built upon an older machine, largely, thereby making it equivalent of the VERY LAST machine in its series...

Originally posted by cwasko:
Then by that logic so will Rev B, C, D...

Heh. No sh!t. The MAJOR flaws are eliminated after rev. A. No?

Originally posted by cwasko:
Please show your ignorance more. My email server hosts about 10,000 email addresses. The DNS is for about 100 domains and the FTP is a back-up client for all the websites and databases. I'd say it tests thing out quite nicely. So, the Rev A myth only applies to the machines you say it does? How convenient.

Well, maybe it does test it quite nicely, then. Your machine is probably not a revision A, however, mooting your point. You're using the internal ATA bus? Heh.

Double check what your machine is.

Originally posted by cwasko:
I received it Feb 3 199 - so I'm quite sure its a Rev A. I've got 3 hard drives in it - all came installed by Apple. It would seem to me that the IDE problem is a bad design, not a bug. By that logic, then every computer Apple has made since the G4 has been a bad design - until the G5. But since its Rev A right now, it must suck and just has to be worse than the bad-designed G4s out there.

"Bad design"? By BAD DESIGN the internal bus controller had a problem? Do you understand the definition of the word DESIGN, and how it denotes INTENTION?

Err... your logic is pretty retarded... how did you come up with that conclusion?

Originally posted by cwasko:
Additionally, this computer has taken over all the above tasks, its also running OSXS 10.2 and is a NetInfo master.

Am I supposed to be impressed?

Originally posted by cwasko:
Yea. I'm waiting... You think something would show up after 5 months? I mean... its just not possible, in your mind, that a Rev A machine could run perfectly with no problems.

Of course it is possible. I sincerely hope your machine has no problems. However, I think it is quite likely that it may.

Simon · 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
You're a moron.

Why call him that man? Explain why he's wrong, not that he's an idiot for not kissing your rear.

You're getting nervous and aggressive, could it be you're cornered? I think so.

Originally posted by Cipher13:
You can't compare an iBook and a PowerBook - heh... they're different machines That has nothing to do with revision history. So what is your point? Oh, and enjoy your hot, low-range (AP) rev A PowerBook. Your example is purely idiotic.

Well, it's idiotic alright, but I hoped you would say that. Because it's exactly what you're telling people to do. And that is idiotic.

You can't tell people to wait (making them buy an MDD G4) instead of buying a new G5 if they need it. MDD and G5 - two different designs. Like the iBook and PowerBook. But because the G5 is rev A and the MDD is rev B or C you tell people to take the latter. That's ridiculous. The G5 will kill it in most tasks. There are people who need that power and they will not get it with anything else than the rev A G5. So they should get it now if they need it now. Your advice is imprudent and is based on emotion rather on clear rationality. A pitty.

And BTW, Cipher, you talk too much even when you lack the experience. I have a iBook 900 I bought to give to my brother right in front of me. I have a 12" PowerBook my lab bought me also right in front. I know both machines well. If I say my PowerBook is not hot and APX reception is good than that's the way it is. You have only the iBook and do not have enough experience with the 12" to tell me how my machine runs. So shut up instead of spreading unqualified FUD, will ya? Don't you dare misinform noobs here just to try to get your head out of the noose in this stupid discussion.

Cipher13 · Aug 24, 2003, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by Simon:

Why call him that man? Explain why he's wrong, not that he's an idiot for not kissing your rear.

I'm sure you picked up on it too. His entire post was pure idiocy. "Why buy a G5 when there will be a G6 some day!". Yeah. We're all enjoying our 186s.

Originally posted by Simon:
You're getting nervous and aggressive, could it be you're cornered? I think so.

I'm always aggressive, and never nervous. You should know me better than to think that.

Originally posted by Simon:
[B]Well, it's idiotic alright, but I hoped you would say that. Because it's exactly what you're telling people to do. And that is idiotic.

[.b]

No, it is not. The difference between an iBook and a PowerBook is totally different than the difference between a rev. A G5 and a rev. B G5. Is it not?

Originally posted by Simon:
You can't tell people to wait (making them buy an MDD G4) instead of buying a new G5 if they need it. MDD and G5 - two different designs. Like the iBook and PowerBook. But because the G5 is rev A and the MDD is rev B or C you tell people to take the latter. That's ridiculous. The G5 will kill it in most tasks. There are people who need that power and they will not get it with anything else than the rev A G5. So they should get it now if they need it now. Your advice is imprudent and is based on emotion rather on clear rationality. A pitty.

I'm not. I'm saying that revision A machines are inherently flawed, and that buying one is dumb. I'm CERTAINLY not saying to get a G4. I never even mentioned such a thing.

DO NOT put words into my mouth; I absolutely despise it when people do that. If anything, I'm suggesting people wait for a revision B machine. Your entire statement there is based upon a misinterpretation of yours, so I won't even bother with it.

I never, EVER told people to get a G4.

Originally posted by Simon:
And BTW, Cipher, you talk too much even when you lack the experience. I have a iBook 900 I bought to give to my brother right in front of me. I have a 12" PowerBook my lab bought me also right in front. I know both machines well. If I say my PowerBook is not hot and APX reception is good than that's the way it is. You have only the iBook and do not have enough experience with the 12" to tell me how my machine runs. So shut up instead of spreading unqualified FUD, will ya? Don't you dare misinform noobs here just to try to get your head out of the noose in this stupid discussion.

I've admitted with which machines I lack experience. The 17" PowerBook, and the 12" PowerBook.

While I lack any experience with the 17, as I said, I have enough experience with the 12 to accurately discuss it. I know four or five people that have them, and I have two at work, which I have to interact with on a far too reglar basis.

Obviously, we qualify "experience" differently, and it would seem my requirements are more stringent.

I work with, quite literally, hundreds of different Macs. Mostly iBooks and PowerMacs. I know what I'm talking about.

Take it or leave it.

nikstar101 · Aug 24, 2003, 08:10 AM

Ok guys this thread is turning into a slagging match. (i've worked with macs for this long and i know more etc...)

Basically when it come to rev a machines i think you just have to expect that the machine may have some quirks, but i doubt they will be major. If they were apple will fix them, but you are likely to find little things that may annoy you when you find out the the problems have been fixed in later models.

But then again i think that some little bugs sort of personalise your machine. Taking a quote from fraiser the one thing better than a perfect play is one with a minor flaw so you can talk about it afterwards.

As for me, i am waiting till panther is released on the G5, even though i am sure you will get free upgrade if you bought a G5 eariler. Plus it gives me time to here the reviews.

Nik

Simon · Aug 24, 2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
I'm not. I'm saying that revision A machines are inherently flawed, and that buying one is dumb.

That is just being forcefully dogmatic. Thinking in a rational way obviously causes more pain than following rules blindly. But the former gets you way farther. Here's the deal:

If somebody needs a new Mac and he listens to your advice he won't get one and will have to be unproductive for another six months.

If he gets one he can be productive for the next six months. Should he find a flaw he absolutely can't live with, he can get a new Mac six months later with all the cash he earned in the mean time.

Your advice applies only to gamers and freaks who don't really need a new Mac. Those who can wait forever. For all those people who actually do work on a machine it's useless.

If people need to get work done, they get a rev A machine no matter what crazy dogma you come up with. Problems and revision numbers don't correlate. They could, but luckily they don't.

zigzag · Aug 24, 2003, 12:59 PM

If you buy a Rev. A and accept the risk that it will have more problems than a Rev. B, that doesn't make you an ignorant moron, it just means that you accept the risk. You could have a dozen valid reasons for doing so, just as you could have a dozen valid reasons for waiting for Rev. B.

Common sense dictates that the first production run will likely have more problems than later runs. Common sense also dictates that the longer Apple has to refine a machine, the fewer problems it's likely to have, although there have been exceptions to this. Everyone has to decide for themselves when the benefits of buying outweigh the benefits of waiting.

Odds are that hundreds of thousands of people will buy the Rev. A and be perfectly happy. Some won't. That's a risk that they appear to be willing to take. To each his own.

Most of us agree that there's no rule that applies to everyone, that a prudent person could choose either course, for a variety of reasons. The real question is: What, in fact, is the degree of risk? All we have so far are anecdotes. Those are useful, but does anyone have any actual statistics?

Cipher13 · 05:52 PM

Originally posted by zigzag:
If you buy a Rev. A and accept the risk that it will have more problems than a Rev. B, that doesn't make you an ignorant moron, it just means that you accept the risk. You could have a dozen valid reasons for doing so, just as you could have a dozen valid reasons for waiting for Rev. B.

Common sense dictates that the first production run will likely have more problems than later runs. Common sense also dictates that the longer Apple has to refine a machine, the fewer problems it's likely to have, although there have been exceptions to this. Everyone has to decide for themselves when the benefits of buying outweigh the benefits of waiting.

Odds are that hundreds of thousands of people will buy the Rev. A and be perfectly happy. Some won't. That's a risk that they appear to be willing to take. To each his own.

Most of us agree that there's no rule that applies to everyone, that a prudent person could choose either course, for a variety of reasons. The real question is: What, in fact, is the degree of risk? All we have so far are anecdotes. Those are useful, but does anyone have any actual statistics?

Nope, but it would definately be interesting to work out the rate of failure/critical bugs in rev. A systems compared with later systems (no doubt it will be higher, but how much higher?).

Then there comes the problem of defining 'critical' bugs, and whatnot...

Originally posted by Simon:
That is just being forcefully dogmatic. Thinking in a rational way obviously causes more pain than following rules blindly. But the former gets you way farther. Here's the deal:

If somebody needs a new Mac and he listens to your advice he won't get one and will have to be unproductive for another six months.

If he gets one he can be productive for the next six months. Should he find a flaw he absolutely can't live with, he can get a new Mac six months later with all the cash he earned in the mean time.

Your advice applies only to gamers and freaks who don't really need a new Mac. Those who can wait forever. For all those people who actually do work on a machine it's useless.

If people need to get work done, they get a rev A machine no matter what crazy dogma you come up with. Problems and revision numbers don't correlate. They could, but luckily they don't.

I'm stating how things are; if that stops a person from buying a machine, when I haven't even commented on the machine in question (and I haven't; I've only said what is most likely) - then they didn't really *need* the machine, now, did they?

Nobody has to listen to what I've said; I'm voicing what is my opinion on the situation here. Nothing more. It is highly likely that the G5s will have rather major bugs of some sort; for example, being bloody dust traps - I can tell you now that will happen, and that could cause internal damage, as you and I both know. There is no filter inside the machine, is there? Hopefully, there is; I don't know.

My advice applies to everybody in the market for a machine. So does yours. "Gamers" have no more to do with this than anyone else

Stop grasping for straws to aid your side of the discussion; it's amazing how little real content from my posts you've actually addressed, while merely trying to slag my opinion and myself in general. Don't try to turn things such as "experience" around on me - I gaurantee I have more than you do. As if that matters anyway.

I've given you examples of my case, to which you've responded... with not much at all, actually.

I've given you CRITICAL problems in revision A machines, which you've blown off as nothing; what, exactly, IS your opinion on the Smurf ATA bug? The bad hinges? The bubbling paint? The fragile analogue board of the first slot loaders? I could go on, and on. You know I could.

Short Circuit · Aug 24, 2003, 08:54 PM

W

awcopus · Aug 25, 2003, 12:24 AM

Weather in NYC today was fabulous. Went for a jog at the park, and for dinner my girl and I tried a Peruvian restaraunt... have you ever had ceviches? I recommend it highly. Basically it's seafood "cooked" in citric acid, a spiced up lemon sauce. Delicious!

Can't wait for the G5s to be fully tested by early adopters and "official" reviewers. Will be refreshing to see meaningful information posted on this board again.

zigzag · Aug 25, 2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by awcopus:
Weather in NYC today was fabulous. Went for a jog at the park, and for dinner my girl and I tried a Peruvian restaraunt... have you ever had ceviches? I recommend it highly. Basically it's seafood "cooked" in citric acid, a spiced up lemon sauce. Delicious!

Ceviche has been one of my favorite dishes since I first had it in Merida (Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico) about 23 years ago. They have ceviche bars down there - you just pop in off the street and they serve it in parfait-style glasses. Brilliant.

I learned from this that cooking is basically a process of breaking down proteins, which can be done with chemical agents as well as heat. Citric acid breaks down the proteins in seafood and causes it to turn white and tender, just as it would if you applied heat. Meat tenderizers do essentially the same thing.

Might as well talk food while waiting for the G5 to show up. Neither of my local Apple Stores has one.

Simon · 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Stop grasping for straws to aid your side of the discussion; it's amazing how little real content from my posts you've actually addressed, while merely trying to slag my opinion and myself in general.

That's baloney. First, you're just not quick enough. I already told ya right in the beginning that you can always find "evidence" to support either theory. You just have too search hard enough. I've left that debate long ago.
And secondly, I'm not "slagging you" and I don't want to. I don't agree with your opinion and I believe it's based on emotion rather than on rational thinking. That's what I criticize. If I had a problem with you as a person, I'd let you feel it, believe me. I still think you're a fine guy, don't worry.

Don't try to turn things such as "experience" around on me

I haven't done that in this thread at all. I merely told ya to not talk about machines you don't work with daily and therefore can't really judge properly. It was an attempt to tell you in a more polite way to stop talking out of your rear.

I'll remind you here and now: I asked you to stop lecturing me on a machine I use daily and have plenty of first-hand experience with. Not such a bold request, is it?

I gaurantee I have more than you do.

This is the kind of "mine is longer than yours" statement that makes a post and/or thread look ridculous.

How can you judge this? You can't. I'm older than you, and I've used Apple machines since the II. I doubt your statement is based on any facts you'd know.

As if that matters anyway.

Unfortunately it does to you. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt that utter urge to post it. A pitty, isn't it?

I've given you CRITICAL problems in revision A machines, which you've blown off as nothing

Not as nothing. No way. But I told you my opinion on that about a week ago already. That discussion is over. I'll repeat: I acknowledge those problems. I think they aren't nice. And some were later solved, some not.

The critical issue is that later rev's have their fair share of problems and flaws as well. Machines get better with time. You buy later and chances are you'll get a better machine. But that isn't any buying advice. The world is not as simple as "don't buy a rev A whatsoever".

It seems a majority of the posters here agrees with me and I'll take that as a measure.

Cipher13 · Aug 25, 2003, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by Simon:
That's baloney. First, you're just not quick enough. I already told ya right in the beginning that you can always find "evidence" to support either theory. You just have too search hard enough. I've left that debate long ago.
And secondly, I'm not "slagging you" and I don't want to. I don't agree with your opinion and I believe it's based on emotion rather than on rational thinking. That's what I criticize. If I had a problem with you as a person, I'd let you feel it, believe me. I still think you're a fine guy, don't worry.

Haha. Yeah, nothing personal.

Originally posted by Simon:
I haven't done that in this thread at all. I merely told ya to not talk about machines you don't work with daily and therefore can't really judge properly. It was an attempt to tell you in a more polite way to stop talking out of your rear.

I'll remind you here and now: I asked you to stop lecturing me on a machine I use daily and have plenty of first-hand experience with. Not such a bold request, is it?

You must understand that I use them nearly as much; every day, just not every minute of every day. Certainly enough to get to know them very, very well.

That's hardly talking out of my ass.

Originally posted by Simon:
This is the kind of "mine is longer than yours" statement that makes a post and/or thread look ridculous.

How can you judge this? You can't. I'm older than you, and I've used Apple machines since the II. I doubt your statement is based on any facts you'd know.

Yep, stupid comment, one I usually use in scientific arguments against morons. You're not a moron, and this isn't a scientific argument. Call it habit, I guess. My bad.

Originally posted by Simon:
Unfortunately it does to you. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt that utter urge to post it. A pitty, isn't it?

No, not at all. It was rather contradictory to my previous statement, infact. I do not believe it matters. But whatever...

Originally posted by Simon:
Not as nothing. No way. But I told you my opinion on that about a week ago already. That discussion is over. I'll repeat: I acknowledge those problems. I think they aren't nice. And some were later solved, some not.

The critical issue is that later rev's have their fair share of problems and flaws as well. Machines get better with time. You buy later and chances are you'll get a better machine. But that isn't any buying advice. The world is not as simple as "don't buy a rev A whatsoever".

It seems a majority of the posters here agrees with me and I'll take that as a measure.

Of course, later revs have problems. But none so amazingly critical as to practically cripple a machine! As per the early slot loaders analogue boards, or the smurf ATA problems, and so forth.

CRITICAL problems are weeded out after rev. A. THAT is my point.