[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I understand that, what I am saying is will a windows virus even see a HFS partition?

If none is out now to do it someone will write one to make sure it does.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I understand that, what I am saying is will a windows virus even see a HFS partition?

Without MacDisk, a virus will not see a Mac partition as a readable partition, but it could see it as data on the disk. Just like Windows could completely reformat the whole disk, it can write to parts of the disk that it can't read in a meaningful way.

[CollinG3G4]

Originally Posted by mintcake

What they did to the iPod, they've just done to the Mac.

Exactly!

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Hell I still wish I could boot into the BE OS.

You probably can, now that the Mac has Intel inside. I have BeOS r5 pro. If I find someone who owns a mini, imac, or macbook pro, I'll try it and let you know.

Although I would be willing to bet that yellowtab's Zeta might be better on the hardware, being that it's more current.

[icruise]

I can only see this as a positive move, although how this will affect the Mac in 5-10 years is anybody's guess. For now, though, I see a lot of fence-siitters saying that the one thing that had kept them from buying a Mac is now gone. The only people who have a legitimate argument against getting a Mac now are people who need to use a particular Windows-only program or programs every single day (or people who are very cheap, but they were never really the Mac's target user base anyway). And when virtualization gets perfected, even people who need to use Windows programs daily will be covered.

What we are going to see is a marked jump in Mac market share. Far from being the end of Mac development, I actually predict an increase in the number of Mac programs available as more and more people decide that it's OK to buy a Mac. They can still play their games just as well as any other Windows computer, but they can use OS X too. And they have an "out" if they decide they don't like OS X (but I think we all know that the majority of people will stick with OS X if they give it a chance). If Apple plays their cards right, the Mac will be seen as a sort of super computer that can run just about any modern OS. Why buy a bog-standard Dell when you can get a Mac that can run Windows AND Mac OS AND Linux, etc?

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by vmarks

You probably can, now that the Mac has Intel inside. I have BeOS r5 pro. If I find someone who owns a mini, imac, or macbook pro, I'll try it and let you know.

Although I would be willing to bet that yellowtab's Zeta might be better on the hardware, being that it's more current.

I love that BE logo, won't be the same without it in Zeta.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by kjartan

Maybe it's just me that is getting tired of seeing apple more and more selling their products on looks and lifestyle instead of speed, reliability and interface. Maybe it's just me that is tired of installing security updates that have more to do with print drivers than security.

Maybe it´s just me . . . that would hate it very much to give up MAC for PC

Well, 8.6 and 9.2 were very much like a podunk little backwater town, where nothing much has changed in decades, but nothing much is possible - and nobody's interested, and nobody comes there for that reason.

You've just moved to the big city. Get used to locking your door and looking left and right when you cross the street.

And since Macintosh was always about being "the computer for the rest of us", I don't think you have much to worry about in terms of going PC: OS X is so much more true to the original Mac ethic than the "Classic" System had been since at least System 7.5 that it ain't even funny.

[Super Mario]

I tested Ubuntu on Parallel's vm app. Nice very very nice version of Linux.

[fhoubi]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Originally Posted by Binarymix
Because most people will install MacDrive so they can exhange data over the partitions, I would think.

And if they don't?

What if MacDrive threatens "buy me buy me please @Apple, or I throw the software in public? Or even worse, get bought by Microsoft and they dump it for free, as Flip4Mac? Including source code? Scary times if you ask me.

[kick52]

I tested Ubuntu on Parallel's vm app. Nice very very nice version of Linux.

How does that work?

Does it have a virtual disk image or does it actually use a partition of the HD.

I tried Ubuntu on my PowerMac and it wiped everything. They need a better install guide.

[hagheid]

Linux will now DEFINITELY see a big boost from the knobs who wish to maintain 'different'.
More importantly, it's blazingly obvious now that devs will run down development on OS X apps, it's probably already a board-room given. Recepción a Vista baby!

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by kick52

How does that work?

Does it have a virtual disk image or does it actually use a partition of the HD.

I tried Ubuntu on my PowerMac and it wiped everything. They need a better install guide.

From a disk image. OK I found I have one problem with it. Networking isn't working when my Airport is on in OS X.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by hagheid

Linux will now DEFINITELY see a big boost from the knobs who wish to maintain 'different'.
More importantly, it's blazingly obvious now that devs will run down development on OS X apps, it's probably already a board-room given. Recepción a Vista baby!

Nonsense

Nobody can know anything until Leopard comes out. Until then devs will be keeping an eye on this::::::::::

How many people who were going to buy PCs are now buying iMacs and MacBook Pros?

How many of them are switching to using OS X as their main OS?

They will be looking at things like webstats, surveys and Mac sales before making their minds up. That will take at least a year.

[hagheid]

Originally Posted by Super Mario

Nonsense

Nobody can know anything until Leopard comes out. Until then devs will be keeping an eye on this::::::::::

How many people who were going to buy PCs are now buying iMacs and MacBook Pros?

How many of them are switching to using OS X as their main OS?

They will be looking at things like webstats, surveys and Mac sales before making their minds up. That will take at least a year.

I've 'Grabbed' this response. It's a biscuit!!
Wait a minute......Not forgetting issues of cost, 'Typical' XP users will go out now & buy a Mac so that they can run Windows.....& oh, in some epiphany-like process these dullards will come to realize the superiority of OS X.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by hagheid

I've 'Grabbed' this response. It's a biscuit!!
Wait a minute......Not forgetting issues of cost, 'Typical' XP users will go out now & buy a Mac so that they can run Windows.....& oh, in some epiphany-like process these dullards will come to realize the superiority of OS X.

no, I think the same people will want macs that have always wanted macs, for the most part. this just makes it easier for those people who wanted macs before but couldn't get them because they needed some windows program for work or wanted to play games to switch now. This is the same group that would have considered Virtual PC before; Boot camp is just a better implementation of that (particularly for gamers).

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by hagheid

I've 'Grabbed' this response. It's a biscuit!!
Wait a minute......Not forgetting issues of cost, 'Typical' XP users will go out now & buy a Mac so that they can run Windows.....& oh, in some epiphany-like process these dullards will come to realize the superiority of OS X.

Saracistic mother****er I gonna break your comments over my bread roller.

You say issues of cost huh. Just compare the cost of an Intel Mac compared to a PC laptop with the same specs and quality of in-the-box software.

Sorry, you can't compare it because the competition doesn't exist.

Ya go ahead and post your Dell and Acer and Gateway cowhouse PC. The Intel Macs that are out now are not that different in price and you get the best productivity software and hardware design you don't get from any other brand.

When the results come in I amma gonna break your head with them if you contest this.

[hagheid]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

no, I think the same people will want macs that have always wanted macs, for the most part. this just makes it easier for those people who wanted macs before but couldn't get them because they needed some windows program for work or wanted to play games to switch now. This is the same group that would have considered Virtual PC before; Boot camp is just a better implementation of that (particularly for gamers).

I agree totally. Also, as Mac users it's good news for us. As a matter of fact I've a friend who was cracking up about having to buy a PC L/Top because he simply can't run a couple of bits of business S/Ware he MUST use.
He loves the whole Apple 'experience' having been 'converted' 2 years ago (& now some $9000 poorer!) With the into of Bootcamp he has now ordered a MacBook Pro. (Cost is NOT a consideration for him, lucky bugger!)
No, my point of concern was for the longer term. I can easily envisage Devs. with their eyes firmly fixed on costs & profits suggesting that we can now run their S/Ware ....... on XP!!!

[hagheid]

Originally Posted by Super Mario

......I gonna break your comments over my bread roller ....... When the results come in I amma gonna break your head with them if you contest this.

Calm down dear, take a break from the kitchen, take off that apron, put the feet up & have a nice cup of tea. They tell me that PMT is a terrible affliction

[HackManDan]

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but will it be possible for third party resellers to sell Macs with Windows preinstalled (presumably when 10.5 comes out since bootcamp is still in beta)? Are merchants allowed to modify Macs before selling them under Apple’s merchant agreements?

I would imagine that when bootcamp is officially brought into OS X that a good number of potential buyers wouldn’t mind having Windows already installed as to avoid the hassle of installing an operating system. Heck, it might even be cheaper because those merchants could use OEM windows disk instead of the retail versions. Of course, this could simply become a case-by-case special order request on the part of the buyer.

IMO, a reseller who had installed Windows on some of their stock would have a leg up in selling to potential switchers.

HMD

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by HackManDan

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but will it be possible for third party resellers to sell Macs with Windows preinstalled (presumably when 10.5 comes out since bootcamp is still in beta)? Are merchants allowed to modify Macs before selling them under Apple’s merchant agreements?

I would imagine that when bootcamp is officially brought into OS X that a good number of potential buyers wouldn’t mind having Windows already installed as to avoid the hassle of installing an operating system. Heck, it might even be cheaper because those merchants could use OEM windows disk instead of the retail versions. Of course, this could simply become a case-by-case special order request on the part of the buyer.

IMO, a reseller who had installed Windows on some of their stock would have a leg up in selling to potential switchers.

HMD

I don't think Apple will allow that as that would give the impression that Apple supports using Windows.

Apple will never provide support to people using Windows.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by hagheid

I can easily envisage Devs. with their eyes firmly fixed on costs & profits suggesting that we can now run their S/Ware ....... on XP!!!

That would be more likely if all Macs had XP on them.

The vast majority won't. Only people who want to put XP on their computers will. Companies can't assume that the majority of Mac owners will spend the extra money to buy Windows just to run their product.

In fact, many Mac owners will vote with their wallets and buy stuff from people who make Mac versions.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by HackManDan

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but will it be possible for third party resellers to sell Macs with Windows preinstalled (presumably when 10.5 comes out since bootcamp is still in beta)? Are merchants allowed to modify Macs before selling them under Apple’s merchant agreements?

Resellers are not allowed to open the box. They can sell Macs as a package with other products so bundling Windows for switchers at a special price or an app that someone will surely make that transfers their Windows to the Mac is an option.

[kick52]

i dont actually see why this is that big of a shock.

i read in MacFormat magazine that apple filed a patent that allowed users to boot their mac into xp, mac os x, or linux.

maybe i should of posted that?

[hagheid]

Originally Posted by Person Man

In fact, many Mac owners will vote with their wallets and buy stuff from people who make Mac versions.

Those with new Macs soon forced to buy compatible S/Ware will now/soon be able to choose versions suitable for either platform however! ......MS office anyone?

[analogika]

Microsoft has made a public (and contractual, I believe) committment to developing Office for Mac OS X for at least the next five years.

That makes Apple's release of Boot Camp shortly thereafter pretty funny, in a hah-hah! kind of way.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by analogika

Microsoft has made a public (and contractual, I believe) committment to developing Office for Mac OS X for at least the next five years.

That makes Apple's release of Boot Camp shortly thereafter pretty funny, in a hah-hah! kind of way.

Do you really think Microsoft is upset about the creation of millions of machines that can now install XP?

[analogika]

long-term?

yes.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally Posted by Person Man

That would be more likely if all Macs had XP on them.

The vast majority won't. Only people who want to put XP on their computers will. Companies can't assume that the majority of Mac owners will spend the extra money to buy Windows just to run their product.

In fact, many Mac owners will vote with their wallets and buy stuff from people who make Mac versions.

Exactly. Consumers and their wallets dictate the market, not the devs. If some devs stop making Mac OS software, they'll lose customers and a competitor will gain those customers.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by HackManDan

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, but will it be possible for third party resellers to sell Macs with Windows preinstalled (presumably when 10.5 comes out since bootcamp is still in beta)? Are merchants allowed to modify Macs before selling them under Apple’s merchant agreements?

I would imagine that when bootcamp is officially brought into OS X that a good number of potential buyers wouldn’t mind having Windows already installed as to avoid the hassle of installing an operating system. Heck, it might even be cheaper because those merchants could use OEM windows disk instead of the retail versions. Of course, this could simply become a case-by-case special order request on the part of the buyer.

IMO, a reseller who had installed Windows on some of their stock would have a leg up in selling to potential switchers.

HMD

Tekserve in NYC is offering to pre-install Windows XP with Boot Camp (unsupported, of course) on any new intel mac for $200

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by analogika

long-term?

yes.

Because in a 2-3 years Steve is going to offer Dell and Gateway OSX to install on their boxs.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by glideslope

Because in a 2-3 years Steve is going to offer Dell and HP OSX to install on their boxs.

Fixed.™

Do you really think Gateway will still be around in 2-3 years?

[icruise]

Originally Posted by glideslope

Because in a 2-3 years Steve is going to offer Dell and Gateway OSX to install on their boxs.

I'm not saying that such a thing is impossible. After the events of the past year, I'm hesitant to completely rule out anything. But as far as I see it, the release of Boot Camp has nothing whatsoever to do with releasing OS X for non-Apple boxes. In fact, you could argue that these two strategies have completely opposite intentions. The point of releasing Boot Camp is to make Apple hardware more attractive to people who were on the fence about buying a Mac. Releasing OS X for non-Apple hardware would do just the opposite. People would have no incentive to buy Apple hardware, and even I would have to think long and hard about whether my next "Mac" would be from Apple. (I love the hardware, but the variety in Mac hardware is somewhat lacking. In particular, I'd like to install OS X on a tiny subnotebook.)

HOWEVER... If Leopard or a future OS X release does indeed incorporate virtualization that was good enough to let anyone run just about any Windows app within OS X, it might just be possible that releasing it for non-Apple machines would make sense. Apple would have a better Windows than Windows, in some sense. It's just barely possible that Steve and company have a full-fledged assault on Windows brewing, but doing so would require changing their business model pretty drastically.

[Gamoe]

I'm in the "bad idea" camp. This may well be another step towards the end of the Mac platform as a whole cohesive hardware/software product. I also happen to think that this has a good chance of marginalizing Mac OS X. And I also think this will probably boost sales and make Apple richer, but just at what cost?

First we're told that the Mac is not the hardware, but the the software. Now it seems that's up for grabs, too. Just what is the Mac anymore? I think our favorite platform is having a major identity crises at the moment.

I wish Apple would just give it up and sell Mac OS X alone for PCs, like they probably will eventually anyway, if Apple doesn't give up and goes all Windoze, which is seeming like a much more real and much less laughable possibility now.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by glideslope

Because in a 2-3 years Steve is going to offer Dell and Gateway OSX to install on their boxs.

Why the hell would they do that?



They wouln't make any money then, would they, now.

once again, everybody:

APPLE IS A HARDWARE COMPANY.
THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY SELLING HARDWARE.
ALL APPLE SOFTWARE IS AN INCENTIVE TO BUY APPLE HARDWARE.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Gabriel Morales

First we're told that the Mac is not the hardware, but the the software. Now it seems that's up for grabs, too.

How so?

All this means is that you can live on your Mac and still just briefly reboot to play a round of Half-Life 2 without the need for another huge ugly and expensive box sitting around.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by analogika

Why the hell would they do that?



They wouln't make any money then, would they, now.

once again, everybody:

APPLE IS A HARDWARE COMPANY.
THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY SELLING HARDWARE.
ALL APPLE SOFTWARE IS AN INCENTIVE TO BUY APPLE HARDWARE.

One thing me and analog agree with. I've also been saying this for years.

That is unless they become software only like MS.

Which I don't see them doing. Jobs likes to control the who machine.

[kick52]

thats a good point, and a reassuring point.

anyway, OS X looks so much better on a mac, if Jobs is sane, he wouldn't sell os x to grey,dull,virus-infected,boxes.

[Toyin]

Originally Posted by Icruise

HOWEVER... If Leopard or a future OS X release does indeed incorporate virtualization that was good enough to let anyone run just about any Windows app within OS X, ....

Originally Posted by Icruise

It's just barely possible that Steve and company have a full-fledged assault on Windows brewing, but doing so would require changing their business model pretty drastically.

This was what I was trying to say earlier.

Apple most know that virtualization is going to happen and pretty fast. Within a year we will have either have a fast user switching with Windows or a WINE type solution. The WINE type emulation is what could scare developers off because:

A. It will be relatively seamless to even basic users
B. It would not require a separate purchase of Windows
C. It may not run at full speed, but will be close enough.

That's why I stand by my 1st statement. Apple has to give developers a reason to continue using x-code and the only way I see that happening is if x-code makes it easy to write Apple and Windows applications at the same time.

Originally Posted by Toyin

Developer A codes for Windows only. Programs run okay on OSX and well on Windows. They continue to develop for Windows. Those with monopolies (ie Adobe) may choose to do this, but are at risk of loosing OS-X clients to native solutions.

Developer B codes for Windows only. Sees the benefit of using X-code and now can compile programs that work in Windows and OSX.

Developer C codes for OS-X and has smartly moved to X-code. Now they can expand their market share to the Windows world as well.

Developers B & C become a HUGE threat to Developer A who needs to get with the program.

As OSX market share increases, Developers B & C will thrive. Developer A will still do fine, but if OSX market share rises significantly (say to 30% in five years) they could get into serious trouble if their app doesn't work well in the WINE environment (Which Apple may or may not be able to screw up intentionally)

**disclaimer : I am not a programmer so I don't know how difficult it this would be

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Point a. is pure speculation and debatable.
Point b. is meh.
Point c. is true but forgets to mention that only a tiny percentage of geeks will go to the trouble of making OS X run on a PC. Especially now that all they have to do is buy a mini.

He forgot Point d. Mac OS X (and Mac software in general) is so much easier to pirate than Windows XP. They have that funky registeration thinngy going on.


BootCamp: I was drunk last night when I read about it, and I woke up this morning honestly thinking I dreamed it up. The situation reminds me of the book Animal Farm. Has anyone read it?

[Salty]

You know I think it would be really smart if Apple made an X-Code for Windows, or at least a framework so that apps written for OS X would run the same on Windows. But at the same time, then we progressively lose most of the benefits of having a Mac. The thing is we have tons of software that doesn't have an equal on the Windows side.

[Toyin]

Originally Posted by Salty

You know I think it would be really smart if Apple made an X-Code for Windows, or at least a framework so that apps written for OS X would run the same on Windows. But at the same time, then we progressively lose most of the benefits of having a Mac. The thing is we have tons of software that doesn't have an equal on the Windows side.

In my several years on MacNN I've never been one to be a 'thread policeman' and I realize this thread is long, but for sake , read the post 2 posts before yours.

[Mediaman_12]

Dual boot it great and all, but people never 'really' use both OS's equally. At least one OS becomes a 'plaything'. Take me for example. I have thought about dual booting so I can install MS Access, and run a IIS server so I can do ASP dev. That is ONE app that I need to use Win for. But I wouldn't really want to reboot to to the ASP/HTML pages, so I would end up with HTML/CSS editor installed on XP too, Need to do some 'graphic tweaks' I'm not got to reboot (twice) to do a quick graphic edit, so that's a image editor. Now I am in XP for a while, and I need to keep an eye on my email (I don't want to have to keep rebooting just to do mail), so thats an email app, now I have the problem of possibly 2 email db's. See where I am going.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Mediaman_12

Dual boot it great and all, but people never 'really' use both OS's equally. At least one OS becomes a 'plaything'. Take me for example. I have thought about dual booting so I can install MS Access, and run a IIS server so I can do ASP dev. That is ONE app that I need to use Win for. But I wouldn't really want to reboot to to the ASP/HTML pages, so I would end up with HTML/CSS editor installed on XP too, Need to do some 'graphic tweaks' I'm not got to reboot (twice) to do a quick graphic edit, so that's a image editor. Now I am in XP for a while, and I need to keep an eye on my email (I don't want to have to keep rebooting just to do mail), so thats an email app, now I have the problem of possibly 2 email db's. See where I am going.

Indeed. This is why Boot Camp really only makes sense for people who want to play games or who only need to use a Windows program once in a while. Still, this is a fairly sizable population. Other people would be better served by virtualization.

[mindwaves]

First Post!

[hagheid]

Originally Posted by Mediaman_12

Dual boot it great and all, but people never 'really' use both OS's equally. At least one OS becomes a 'plaything'. Take me for example. I have thought about dual booting so I can install MS Access, and run a IIS server so I can do ASP dev. That is ONE app that I need to use Win for. But I wouldn't really want to reboot to to the ASP/HTML pages, so I would end up with HTML/CSS editor installed on XP too, Need to do some 'graphic tweaks' I'm not got to reboot (twice) to do a quick graphic edit, so that's a image editor. Now I am in XP for a while, and I need to keep an eye on my email (I don't want to have to keep rebooting just to do mail), so thats an email app, now I have the problem of possibly 2 email db's. See where I am going.

Totally Agreed. I said quite a few posts back that Devs. would be well aware of this 'possibilicertainty' & act in the interests of profitability. MS Office anyone Pt.2 ?

[weberik]

mac drive source is not for sale and will not go open source

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Right, because Windows is such an obviously superior operating system that everyone will definitely want to use that.

Windows DOES have an enormous user base, which gets the money folks and the suits fired up about getting apps written for it as opposed to Mac OS. That means that some extremely useful and sometimes even necessary apps show up for Windows fasts-and never show up for Macs.

I'm neither a Windows zealot nor a Mac fundamentalist, but I see a great reason for keeping the twain apart. Except for when one NEEDS a certain app (school, work, etc.).

[mr ginge]

Well, this noobie just discovered this thread, full of rampant paranoia along with a modicum on of common sense mixed with a twist of reason and practicality. For the record I am making the move to Mac FROM PC striclty because of the superiority of the Mac and now not having to throw out and replace a ton of biz software. As more people get to discover the light years diff between OSX and MS there could likely be MORE pressure to dev sw on the OSX side as more people demand it and want ALL of the elegance of osx in their biz apps.

This is one smart strategic move in my view by Apple. Stay tuned.!!