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Reasonable police behavior or total overreaction?
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Mastrap
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:09 PM
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4689459.stm

US police pursue girl over rock

An 11-year-old girl who threw a rock at a group of boys pelting her with water balloons is being prosecuted on serious assault charges in California.
Maribel Cuevas was arrested in April in a police operation which involved three police cars and a helicopter.

She has since spent five days in detention, in which she was granted one 30 minute visit by her parents, and has spent a month under house arrest.

Her lawyer accuses the authorities of criminalising childhood behaviour.

"They're treating her like a violent parole offender," Richard Beshwate said. "It's not a felony, it's an 11-year-old acting like an 11-year-old."

The girl is due back in court at the beginning of next month.

Police say they had to investigate as the boy who was hit by the stone she threw suffered a deep gash to his head and needed hospital treatment.

He has reportedly acknowledged to officers that he started the fight in late April.

'Obligation'

The confrontation happened in a poor district of Fresno, in central California, where Maribel Cuevas lives with her Spanish-speaking family.

The girl, who speaks little English, has admitted throwing a rock at a group of boys she says were pestering her with water balloons as she walked down the street.

An ambulance was called, but arrived flanked by three police patrol vehicles. A helicopter meanwhile hovered overhead.

The 11-year-old was then read her rights twice in English before being detained.

"We responded. We determined a felony assault had taken place and the officers took the actions that were necessary," said Fresno Police Sergeant Anthony Martinez.

Another police officer told ABC News that the girl, when asked what she thought would happen if she threw the rock, replied that it would make him "bleed".
     
FulcrumPilot
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:13 PM
 
The SWAT team probably was on its way as well!
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CreepingDeth
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:16 PM
 


Depends on how big da rock was.
     
kmkkid
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:24 PM
 
No one under the age of 14 should be arrested for anything unless it's pre-meditated murder. Kids are kids and **** happens.
     
CreepingDeth
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:27 PM
 
Hmm…so how bout by sister steals $500 from you? Or sets fire to your house?

You don't suddenly gain maturity at age 18. That's ********. People under eighteen are just as capable of doing damage as someone over 18.
     
kmkkid
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
Hmm…so how bout by sister steals $500 from you? Or sets fire to your house?

You don't suddenly gain maturity at age 18. That's ********. People under eighteen are just as capable of doing damage as someone over 18.
Then the parents pay it back and punish the child. What good does it do to send a young person to a correctional facility at an age where they probably don't really understand their actions.

Maturity isnt the point, it's mindset. A persons under the age of 14 isnt going to think about consequences, they're still kids. Not to say that's with all kids under 14 but like I said above, sending them to jail at such a young age isnt helping the matter.

And if a kid sets fire to a house and kills someone, I think that classifies as pre-meditated.
     
JoshuaZ
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:38 PM
 
Dude, kids do stupid things. This situation should have been handled between the two sets of parents, not the police. I mean, seriously, kids do really damn stupid things. Thats called learning.

If nothing else get this girl playing softball. Obviously she has a future throwing things for a living.
     
CreepingDeth
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:38 PM
 
Not thinking about consequences doesn't undo actions deemed illegal by the universal law of the land.

Maybe not jail, but some form of punishment dealt by the proper authorities, local, state, federal, whatever, should be done. Hell, the parents could be lazy bastards and say "screw the punishment." The offender gets away with it.
     
kmkkid
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:41 PM
 
I agree there should be a punishment, just not a jail term for relatively minor offenses. Make the parents pay (money wise) for what their kids have done. I know that sounds flawed, but if they instilled the proper behaviors their kid wouldnt have stolen, damaged etc...

so what I think should be done in this scenario, is that the boys parents should bitch them out for throwing crap, and the girls family should pay whatever medical expenses were incurred.
     
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Jul 16, 2005, 03:41 PM
 
So she was assaulted by the group, and she retaliated to prevent further assault, and she is the one in trouble? Sad.

Oh well, she'll get off most likely get off. She should be proud of what she did.
     
JoshuaZ
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Jul 16, 2005, 04:01 PM
 
Its the same philosophy that many schools have. Suspending someone for having nail clipers or the wrong type of scissors in school. Kids have it tough these days.
     
torsoboy
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Jul 16, 2005, 04:08 PM
 
Sounds like a huge overreaction to me. Those policemen need to go to some sort of abuse of authority classes. And pay the girl back somehow for taking away her 5 days. And while they're at it, let her throw a few balloons at the jerks that were throwing them at her.
     
iDriveX
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Jul 16, 2005, 04:17 PM
 
Know what bugs me? The age of consent. What's with certain states having an age of consent of 14 years old (like Hawaii) and others 18, like California. And then the federal age of consent doesn't override that. So I can go to Hawaii and have sex with a 14 year old and everyone's cool, I take her to Cali and I get arrested, if I take a 14 year old from Cali to Hawaii though, the Feds arrest me for transportation of a minor across state lines with intent to have sex. There needs to be a uniform age of consent around age 16 or maybe 15 if she's hot.

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kmkkid
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Jul 16, 2005, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by iDriveX
Know what bugs me? The age of consent. What's with certain states having an age of consent of 14 years old (like Hawaii) and others 18, like California. And then the federal age of consent doesn't override that. So I can go to Hawaii and have sex with a 14 year old and everyone's cool, I take her to Cali and I get arrested, if I take a 14 year old from Cali to Hawaii though, the Feds arrest me for transportation of a minor across state lines with intent to have sex. There needs to be a uniform age of consent around age 16 or maybe 15 if she's hot.
18 should be the legal age of consent if you're over the age of 18, if two minors do the deed, I dont think charges should be laid. (unless of course if someone over the age of consent is forcing/profiting off of it)
     
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Jul 16, 2005, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap
It's scary and sad that they arrest this little girl just for that. Really ****ing scary. An ambulance flanked by 3 police cars and a frickin' helicopter ?

No wonder we laugh at the country. **** like this makes me mad

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Jul 16, 2005, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by iDriveX
Know what bugs me? The age of consent. What's with certain states having an age of consent of 14 years old (like Hawaii) and others 18, like California. And then the federal age of consent doesn't override that. So I can go to Hawaii and have sex with a 14 year old and everyone's cool, I take her to Cali and I get arrested, if I take a 14 year old from Cali to Hawaii though, the Feds arrest me for transportation of a minor across state lines with intent to have sex. There needs to be a uniform age of consent around age 16 or maybe 15 if she's hot.
Having bad luck with the 18-year-old girls? It's OK, when you are 22, they will flock to you.
     
iDriveX
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Jul 16, 2005, 06:00 PM
 
I'm 24 now! I'm lucky to have my cute 20-year old girlfriend!

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Jul 16, 2005, 06:23 PM
 
Good grief.

Reminds me of something that happened in middle school: An ex friend got in a fight with me and I grabbed the nearest thing to hit him with, that was one heck of a thing.. The teacher happened to be in the corner of the room on the phone, so he came over to stop it, once it was stopped I grabbed my stuff and left, him trying to get me to come back...

Next day, something similar ensues in the first class of the morning, so the teacher sends us off to the vice principal, who's a great friend of his mother..

They call the cops in, he shows off like a half dozen bruises (when I didn't hit him more than once), and I'm claimed to have "attacked him", which the teacher agrees to.. That almost went bad, except when the principal walked in he couldn't figure out why the heck I'd randomly attack someone like that...

I got off for summer vacation 3 weeks early (they gave me a 2 week vacation), and switched schools after that, it was funny because I switched to the one nearer us (which didn't have the same "GATE" program back when I started, but did at that time), and was worried it would live up to its bad rep..

That's the funny part, that school was probably one of the best run I had been in -- the principal didn't care much about appearances or fancy chairs: His office was just a brown desk and a boring chair in a room, his car wasn't a mercedes -- no it was just a few year old crown vic..

In the end I found that school to be considerably better than the other was, except for the fact the main building was to the point of being worn down that they were tearing it down and rebuilding it (half the school was moved to portable buildings).. otherwise a darn good change for the better

Calling the cops in on something like this is ridiculous.
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iDriveX
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Jul 16, 2005, 06:34 PM
 
I've got a similar tale link....

*BAND GEEK ALERT*

So I was on a band trip down to Corpus Christi, TX and I was rooming with two of my other friends (this was my sophomore year in high school). My friend brought out a thermos that had about one glass worth of vodka in it. This was very mysterious to me and my other friend because, being the oldest child with no older friends, I had never even tasted alcohol in my life. So we poured the alcohol into sprite and drank it, I don't think I even finished my whole glass because it tasted so foul.

The other friend (not the one that brought it) had a call of conscious and decided to "come clean" to free up his guilt. Well that coming clean landed us in the Vice Principal's office where they told us about their zero tolerance policy. They put us in a room and opened the windows and locked the doors (it was about 90 degrees that day in Texas), they gave us a piece of paper and pen and told us to write down exactly what happened. I didn't feel comfortable with that and asked to call my parents, they told us that our parents would be called after we wrote the confession.

So all three of naive children complied and wrote out exactly what happened. Thinking "honesty is the best policy" we figured we'd get off with a slap on the wrist for not making it difficult for everyone involved. Unfortunately, that's probably the thinking that gets so many people executed in Texas. We were sent to Juvenile Hall for the remainder of the school year. The school was trying to incite the D.A. to charge the one friend that brought the alcohol with distributing alcohol to minors.

Juvey Hall was nuts. There were armed guards at the door and everything was fenced up with barbed wire. It served the entire Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex. The three of us were three of 30 people in there. The only caucasian kids as well. Of the two females in there, both were 7 months pregnant. When asking around, the common response for "What are you in for?" came back with "I pulled a knife on my teacher" or 'I brought a gun to school". I had a half of a glass of Vodka on a band trip.

But as "thug" as all these people were. Out of their element they were the nicest people I've ever met. Sure they had their problems, but when they were out of their threatening environment, they were comforting to each other and really genuine people. Like link's post before me, I pretty much got an early summer break. Juvey Hall had classes and they were graded, but they were dumbed down for the intelligence level of the average incarcerated. So I got a 4.0 for that last semester.

Over the summer, I happened to tell my Dad the entire story after it was less of a beating-worthy thing and more of a "ok everything turned out fine, we can look back and laugh" type thing. When I got to the part about the locked doors, open window, he asked me more and more about it. The next day, he called the school board and told them he would be calling his lawyer because a coerced confession is illegal. The school board, which had had enough lawsuits filed against it that year, settled out of court. I ended up with a 4.0 for that entire semester, no record of Juvey Hall on my record whatsoever, and the entire incident was expunged.

Looking back, it turned out to be one of the best things I did in high school to raise my GPA.

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Zimphire
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Jul 16, 2005, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Nick
So she was assaulted by the group, and she retaliated to prevent further assault, and she is the one in trouble? Sad.
Sounds like a forum I go to. . . . . .
     
nredman
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Jul 16, 2005, 06:47 PM
 
maybe if it was a crack rock

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Hugi
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Jul 16, 2005, 08:03 PM
 
This is messed up, the girl should be let free immediately.

I have a similar story, although much, much worse, in my opinion: Eight years ago, a 13 year old boy in Texas received a 10 year jail sentence for "acting sexually" towards a 6 year old girl when he was 11! He served the first 7 years in prison, and is now confined to his home with the help of an electronic ankle bracelet - 22 yrs old and still serving time. And I'm sure the Texas justice system is really proud, thinking it has helped him become a better citizen, because as everyone knows, spending your entire teens/adolescence in prison _really helps_.

There is something seriously wrong with the people/justice system in some places.
( Last edited by Hugi; Jul 16, 2005 at 08:15 PM. )
     
demograph68
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Jul 16, 2005, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
Sounds like a forum I go to. . . . . .
Do you still go there?
     
demograph68
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Jul 16, 2005, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth


Depends on how big da rock was.
Stop with the stupid macros. Please.
     
analogika
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Jul 16, 2005, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
Sounds like a forum I go to. . . . . .
Shut up, Kevin.
     
Master Ken
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Jul 16, 2005, 08:53 PM
 
I once threw a rock at a little boy.....

he died.
     
FulcrumPilot
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Jul 16, 2005, 09:00 PM
 
yes, a stone well aimed can kill.
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CreepingDeth
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Jul 16, 2005, 10:20 PM
 
What macros? DG, you're a strange man.

Well, here's the legal thing: you have to make sure she did not plan to throw the rock to cause bodily damage. Ex: If there's just so happens to be a baseball bat when someone assaults me, my use of that bat to protect myself falls under 'self-defense.' In states where you can carry a concealed weapon (should be all states, IMHO), it is self-defense unless you were planning it on someone, like 'I'm gonna go shoot this muther****er.

I'm still not sure that water balloons are the most violent weapons. Annoying? Yes. Watery? Yes. Deadly? Unless you have an allergy…no. A rock seems a little overkill for the situation. I would have just said the kids were little ****ing pricks with small dicks. Heh. I also believe that the situation must be taken into context. By that I mean, was it a real threat to the party that acted in self-defense. If someone threw Q-tips at you and you knifed them, there's sorta a problem there.

And yes, I do think alot of this crap in schools is ridiculous. I mean, you say one thing these days, even in an obviously joking tone, and you're sent to the principal's office. Let's say someone steals something from you at lunch, and you say, jokingly, "Give back that cake, fatass, or I'll kill you." The fat kid who stole it from you could laugh, and if a teacher heard that, automatic parent/teacher conference. Such ********. Too many self-important administrative pricks in schools these days.

Trust me, I've been on the wrong end of that stuff once before. It's so over-the-top and ridiculous. Suddenly I'm a felon. Suddenly I have anger issues. No ****, Sherlock, you're punishing me over a bloody joke…ones that both parties laughed at. For every good teacher…there are 8 assholes in administration.
     
greenamp
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Jul 17, 2005, 05:08 AM
 
I threw rocks at others sometimes when I was a kid. Wonder if they can still book me on some of it?

/hides
     
Warung
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Jul 17, 2005, 05:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap
Another police officer told ABC News that the girl, when asked what she thought would happen if she threw the rock, replied that it would make him "bleed".
Muahhahaahahaha!

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Athens
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Jul 17, 2005, 05:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
Not thinking about consequences doesn't undo actions deemed illegal by the universal law of the land.

Maybe not jail, but some form of punishment dealt by the proper authorities, local, state, federal, whatever, should be done. Hell, the parents could be lazy bastards and say "screw the punishment." The offender gets away with it.

ITS A ****ING 11 YEAR OLD KID WHO THROUGH A ROCK AT OTHER KIDS WHO WHERE THROWING WATER BALLONS AT HER WHY ARENT THEY CHARGED TOO THEN, ASSULT IS ASSULT THIS IS JUST PATHETIC. Hollyshit are American cops the stupidest morons on the face of the earth
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Athens
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Jul 17, 2005, 05:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
Shut up, Kevin.
Reported!
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Warung
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Jul 17, 2005, 05:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
Shut up, Kevin.
Seconded!

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Jul 17, 2005, 06:36 AM
 



     
CreepingDeth
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Jul 17, 2005, 06:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens
ITS A ****ING 11 YEAR OLD KID WHO THROUGH A ROCK AT OTHER KIDS WHO WHERE THROWING WATER BALLONS AT HER WHY ARENT THEY CHARGED TOO THEN, ASSULT IS ASSULT THIS IS JUST PATHETIC. Hollyshit are American cops the stupidest morons on the face of the earth


Self-Defense
[FONT=Arial Black]Self-Defense[/FONT]

n. The use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. Self-defense is a common defense by a person accused of assault, battery or homicide. The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force. Examples: an unarmed man punches Allen Alibi, who hits the attacker with a baseball bat. That is legitimate self-defense, but Alibi cannot chase after the attacker and shoot him or beat him senseless. If the attacker has a gun or a butcher knife and is verbally threatening, Alibi is probably warranted in shooting him. Basically, appropriate self-defense is judged on all the circumstances. Reasonable force can also be used to protect property from theft or destruction. Self-defense cannot include killing or great bodily harm to defend property, unless personal danger is also involved, as is the case in most burglaries, muggings or vandalism. Emphasis Added
Assault
[FONT=Arial Black]Assault[/FONT]
1) v. The threat or attempt to strike another, whether successful or not, provided the target is aware of the danger. The assaulter must be reasonably capable of carrying through the attack. In some states if the assault is with a deadly weapon (such as sniping with a rifle), the intended victim does not need to know of the peril. Other state laws distinguish between different degrees (first or second) of assault depending on whether there is actual hitting, injury or just a threat. "Aggravated assault" is an attack connected with the commission of another crime, such as beating a clerk during a robbery or a particularly vicious attack.

2) n. The act of committing an assault, as in "there was an assault down on Third Avenue." Assault is both a criminal wrong, for which one may be charged and tried, and civil wrong for which the target may sue for damages due to the assault, including for mental distress. Emphasis Added
Tet: Are you trying to be a troll or something?
     
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Jul 17, 2005, 09:19 AM
 
Meh stupid Americans acting stupid. Go figure! If this case is anything, then it is self-defense and charges should be dropped against the girl.

A group of boys assaults a lone 11 year old girl. They throw waterballoons at her and she is rightly intimidated because they are a group and as such dangerous to her. They are a weapon simply by their number.

When intimidated and faced with a group of boys that are assaulting you - waterballoons, verbally, possibly with intent to further harm her - she does a perfectly natural thing, picks up a rock and throws it at them in order to scare them off.

There is no malice involved and no premeditaded intent to harm. In fact the boys brought it upon themselves. Don't American boys know that they should treat their female counterparts with care and respect?

PS. I like the "holy **** wrong forum" pic. You do post funny things that break up boring threads sometimes!

cheers

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CreepingDeth
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Jul 17, 2005, 09:55 AM
 
Actually W-Y, I spent awhile fixing that image up. It looked like this originally.



After 20 minutes:



I was actually looking for a way to make it look like there's some bullet holes in the camera, but that really didn't work.

This has now become a quibble over legality. Unless we see a transcript or something detailing everything, along with the State's laws regarding assault and self-defense, there's no real point to arguing. Cuz we don't know everything.
     
SimpleLife
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Jul 17, 2005, 10:00 AM
 
This sends a strange message: girls can't defend themselves.

Although I agree that violence should be controlled to extinction, the boys should have been firmly talked to.

On the other hand, there is something funny with such a police team to apprehend a child.
     
ReggieX
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Jul 17, 2005, 10:41 AM
 
Wow, three cars AND a helicopter! Rocks must be awfully dangerous when wielded by an 11 year old.
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Zimphire
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Jul 17, 2005, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika
Shut up, Kevin.
     
Zimphire
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Jul 17, 2005, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
Meh stupid People acting stupid. Go figure!
Fixed.
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 17, 2005, 11:10 AM
 
3 squad cars and a freaking helicopter for an 11 yr old... what a waste of freaking resources. Someone should sue the police dept for their taxes back. What idiot approved that? Who would have thought it was necessary? Or were all the cops in that area bored?

the group of boys were likely intimidating to an 11yr old by herself, and god knows what they were saying as well as throwing water balloons. If she is charged with assault, they should be charged with harrassment.
     
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Jul 17, 2005, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
Fixed.
Not really. It's a typically American story. There is no way that police would use such excessive force for such a minor incident over here. No way. Police wouldn't even be bothered to check it out. It's probably even illegal to use such intimidating excessive force on an 11 year old.

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Jul 17, 2005, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi
3 squad cars and a freaking helicopter for an 11 yr old... what a waste of freaking resources. Someone should sue the police dept for their taxes back. What idiot approved that? Who would have thought it was necessary? Or were all the cops in that area bored?

the group of boys were likely intimidating to an 11yr old by herself, and god knows what they were saying as well as throwing water balloons. If she is charged with assault, they should be charged with harrassment.
They should be charged with harrassment AND assault. Throwing even water baloons at someone is assault if you want to play the legal game.
     
Chuckit
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Jul 17, 2005, 12:02 PM
 
Would y'all be bitching about the American justice system if she'd busted one of their skulls open? Yeah, it's possible for an 11-year-old girl with a big rock to do that.

This sounds excessive to me, but I'm nowhere near certain, because we ain't got no details.
Chuck
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hyperb0le
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Jul 17, 2005, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Would y'all be bitching about the American justice system if she'd busted one of their skulls open? Yeah, it's possible for an 11-year-old girl with a big rock to do that.

This sounds excessive to me, but I'm nowhere near certain, because we ain't got no details.
When my best friend was 10, he and another friend were messing around in his yard. They got a little rough, and the my friend ended up betting hit in the head with a rock. He needed a lot of stitches. However, the cops didn't come cart his friend off to prison on assault charges. The parents of the kid apologized and sternly talked to their son about thinking about the potential consequences of his actions. That's the way these kinds of things should be settled when all parties involved are so young. Now, it would be different if this girl had thrown the rock, knocked a kid down, and continued to smash his skull repeatedly...
     
Chuckit
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Jul 17, 2005, 12:36 PM
 
Kids have died in situations like this. Just because your friend was lucky doesn't mean everyone else is. Do you really think the parents sitting down and chatting would have solved that?

Sending her to juvie would almost certainly be an overreaction, but I'm not sure about sending in the cops.
Chuck
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Warung
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Jul 17, 2005, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Do you really think the parents sitting down and chatting would have solved that?
In most societies it has, - for many generations.

Not only was this a complete and total overreaction, but it once again shows how much policing in the US really sucks.

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jul 17, 2005, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens
ITS A ****ING 11 YEAR OLD KID WHO THROUGH A ROCK AT OTHER KIDS WHO WHERE THROWING WATER BALLONS AT HER WHY ARENT THEY CHARGED TOO THEN, ASSULT IS ASSULT THIS IS JUST PATHETIC. Hollyshit are American cops the stupidest morons on the face of the earth
Yet another anti-America post brought to you by Athens.

The reason this story is making news is because it IS unusual... not because it is NORMAL.

What the police are saying and what the parents are saying are rather different. I'm sure the truth will come out... but I'm not going to take a news article at face value.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jul 17, 2005, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Goldfinger
Not really. It's a typically American story. There is no way that police would use such excessive force for such a minor incident over here. No way. Police wouldn't even be bothered to check it out. It's probably even illegal to use such intimidating excessive force on an 11 year old.
Do you consider a 4" head wound a "minor incident?"
     
 
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