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from McCain: IronKnee's thread on Liberals, Democrats, and Mac users
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ironknee
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Feb 24, 2008, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
As a Mac owner and Apple stock owner, it's great. It was an excellent demonstration of how a cluttered site that attempts to copy its paper format in appearance renders on a small screen, and how Apple overcomes the limitations of that site.
right on man.

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
As a conservative, the New York Times is regrettable, but I clearly understand the choice - it's a paper of record (despite Jayson Blair, despite its coddling of terrorists at every opportunity, despite sanitizing their own Wikipedia page, and more.)

How would you have felt if Jobs had chosen the Washington Times or the Wall Street Journal for the demonstration? Would it have somehow made you feel less warm towards the device?

It seems to me that it is a silly thing to be upset about. It's a demonstration. It shows the device.
well i said in another post, if jobs/apple used foxnews.com as a demo, promo, i would not be such an apple fanboy...

the fact that steve jobs was a hippie, traveled to india, a brand that has rebel anti-establishment appeal, has al gore as a board member, is touting it's green effort and more, makes me feel good that the company has a free thinking soul.

if apple had buchanan on the board or acknowledge rush as a mac user...i would not be so happy about it and the mythology of the passion of apple would disappear for me...

it's not just the product, it's the soul as well.
     
vmarks
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Feb 24, 2008, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
right on man.

well i said in another post, if jobs/apple used foxnews.com as a demo, promo, i would not be such an apple fanboy...
Well, that's silly. It shows that you're willing to be influenced by marketing that gives you warm fuzzies, rather than be concerned with the device capabilities. It's fine, but it's an emotional response to a logical matter.

the fact that steve jobs was a hippie, traveled to india, a brand that has rebel anti-establishment appeal, has al gore as a board member, is touting it's green effort and more, makes me feel good that the company has a free thinking soul.
Jobs wasn't much of a hippie. He was happy to screw anyone including his friends out of money. Having your friend do the work, collect the bonus and then pay out less than half of it to the friend is pretty cheeky.

Traveling to India to get high and skip work, with the expectation that the job will be waiting on return isn't anything to look up to.

The brand has anti-establishment appeal is a sign of successful marketing. "Be different, buy a Mac! (but remember, we want everyone else to do so as well. Be unique, just like everyone else.)"

Having Al Gore on the board is a politically calculated move. As long as Gore has some political capital (and he has a little, because he hasn't spent it on any effort yet) and as long as Gore can stay in the limelight for his Keynote presentation and movie, he has a use. As soon as Gore slips from the limelight, or spends his political capital, expect him to resign from the board. Under pressure. Jobs has no hesitation about getting people to leave when he wishes.

Gil Amelio. Jobs was hired by Amelio when Apple bought NeXT. Amelio figured that he could hold a keynote with Woz and Jobs on the stage and talk about how bright the future would be with both Steves back together again. Jobs refused to appear with Woz. Jobs then proceeded to stab Amelio in the back, convincing the board to fire Amelio and hire him as CEO. The interim CEO bit was only cutesy feel-good. Jobs never intends to leave the CEO seat again, unless it's training his successor and even then, look for the puppet strings.

if apple had buchanan on the board or acknowledge rush as a mac user...i would not be so happy about it and the mythology of the passion of apple would disappear for me...

it's not just the product, it's the soul as well.
The soul is an illusion. Apple is a business and Jobs is a businessman. He gets to choose who he puts on his board, and he's put Al Gore. If he saw political value and marketing value in someone else, he would use that someone else, regardless of political party or position.

And, Apple has acknowledged that Rush Limbaugh is a Mac user. It doesn't fit into their marketing campaigns, because they know that they want to also appeal to touchy-feely folks like yourself. And the truth is, they also know that Mr. Limbaugh does their marketing for them when he talks about his Apple products. Why pay for what he provides for free? But they do acknowledge it, and provide Mr. Limbaugh with support. Would you have them withhold support from him, simply because you don't like his views?
     
ironknee  (op)
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Feb 24, 2008, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Well, that's silly. It shows that you're willing to be influenced by marketing that gives you warm fuzzies, rather than be concerned with the device capabilities. It's fine, but it's an emotional response to a logical matter.

Jobs wasn't much of a hippie. He was happy to screw anyone including his friends out of money. Having your friend do the work, collect the bonus and then pay out less than half of it to the friend is pretty cheeky.

Traveling to India to get high and skip work, with the expectation that the job will be waiting on return isn't anything to look up to.

The brand has anti-establishment appeal is a sign of successful marketing. "Be different, buy a Mac! (but remember, we want everyone else to do so as well. Be unique, just like everyone else.)"

Having Al Gore on the board is a politically calculated move. As long as Gore has some political capital (and he has a little, because he hasn't spent it on any effort yet) and as long as Gore can stay in the limelight for his Keynote presentation and movie, he has a use. As soon as Gore slips from the limelight, or spends his political capital, expect him to resign from the board. Under pressure. Jobs has no hesitation about getting people to leave when he wishes.

Gil Amelio. Jobs was hired by Amelio when Apple bought NeXT. Amelio figured that he could hold a keynote with Woz and Jobs on the stage and talk about how bright the future would be with both Steves back together again. Jobs refused to appear with Woz. Jobs then proceeded to stab Amelio in the back, convincing the board to fire Amelio and hire him as CEO. The interim CEO bit was only cutesy feel-good. Jobs never intends to leave the CEO seat again, unless it's training his successor and even then, look for the puppet strings.



The soul is an illusion. Apple is a business and Jobs is a businessman. He gets to choose who he puts on his board, and he's put Al Gore. If he saw political value and marketing value in someone else, he would use that someone else, regardless of political party or position.

And, Apple has acknowledged that Rush Limbaugh is a Mac user. It doesn't fit into their marketing campaigns, because they know that they want to also appeal to touchy-feely folks like yourself. And the truth is, they also know that Mr. Limbaugh does their marketing for them when he talks about his Apple products. Why pay for what he provides for free? But they do acknowledge it, and provide Mr. Limbaugh with support. Would you have them withhold support from him, simply because you don't like his views?
i'd hate to be you and a mac user...

you are missing the magic part....have you looked a dell? seems like you should

and good luck with all that
     
vmarks
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Feb 24, 2008, 09:29 AM
 
Why should I look at a Dell product? Do I somehow not qualify to own Apple products because I don't share your world view?

I'm not missing the best part of using Apple products, I get the best part everyday: an elegantly designed, functional product which is the result of the vision of talented employees whose work is given the approval of a CEO and lead industrial designer who happen to have good taste, and more often than not make good product decisions. (Of course, there are exceptions but those criticisms belong in the OS X and GUI forums.)

The political philosophy and soul that you ascribe to the company don't have anything to do with how the products are created or work.

It's not as if I'm missing some special "Liberal Democrat" checkbox in System Preferences that makes the product work more 'magically.'

Even though we're very far afield of the McCain topic, let's keep this focused on politics.

Do you remember when Jobs spoke on how broken public education is? His comments flew in the face of the accepted received wisdom of the largely Liberal Democrat populated Teacher's Unions. How did you analyse his comments? How did you reconcile his position that was perceived by many to be the opposite of the accepted Democrat position with your own?
     
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Feb 24, 2008, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
i'd hate to be you and a mac user...

you are missing the magic part....have you looked a dell? seems like you should

and good luck with all that
The truly sad thing is I have no problem believing you actually view things this way. I'd hate to be you. Period.
ebuddy
     
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Feb 24, 2008, 01:03 PM
 
So the conclusion of this thread is that, to be a 'real' Mac user, you have to vote Democrat? Does that go for other brands as well? I mean, are you only allowed to drink Pepsi if you're a Republican, or eat at Subway if you're supporting Hillary?

What a pile of BS. Apple has no political leaning, beyond a common corporate desire to see lower taxes so it can make more profit. Anything beyond that is wishful thinking. Whilst Steve Jobs has an uncommonly large amount of control over the company, the political leanings of a CEO do not dictate the political leanings of the company he or she runs.
     
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Feb 24, 2008, 04:21 PM
 
On the other hand, out of mild interest, I'd love to know how many non-Mac users regularly post on these Mac forums.

That seems like it would give me some insight into their psyche right there, wouldn't it....

greg
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Feb 24, 2008, 05:38 PM
 
Apple's success is an example of capitalism at its finest. The meritocratic idea of becoming rich and powerful through hard work done well is hardly a liberal ideal.
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ironknee  (op)
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Feb 24, 2008, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Well, that's silly. It shows that you're willing to be influenced by marketing that gives you warm fuzzies, rather than be concerned with the device capabilities. It's fine, but it's an emotional response to a logical matter.
no, it's called brand loyalty.


Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Jobs wasn't much of a hippie. He was happy to screw anyone including his friends out of money. Having your friend do the work, collect the bonus and then pay out less than half of it to the friend is pretty cheeky.
really? he wasn't a hippie? screwing woz out of money is a jobs' personal shortcomings. by your logic, he wasn't a hippie because he did a non-hippie thing with the money and therefore he was just a long haired, acid dropping , dylan loving moderate.


Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Traveling to India to get high and skip work, with the expectation that the job will be waiting on return isn't anything to look up to.
how do you mean? do all people who go to india go so they can get high and skip work? did a lot of conservatives or even moderates go to india?

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
The brand has anti-establishment appeal is a sign of successful marketing. "Be different, buy a Mac! (but remember, we want everyone else to do so as well. Be unique, just like everyone else.)"
be different is not something conservatives rally around...more like be like everyone eles

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Having Al Gore on the board is a politically calculated move. As long as Gore has some political capital (and he has a little, because he hasn't spent it on any effort yet) and as long as Gore can stay in the limelight for his Keynote presentation and movie, he has a use. As soon as Gore slips from the limelight, or spends his political capital, expect him to resign from the board. Under pressure. Jobs has no hesitation about getting people to leave when he wishes.
al was elected to the board before an inconvenient truth. what political capital does gore provide especially during the last 7 years of bush? most conservatives slams the film and it's message.


Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Gil Amelio. Jobs was hired by Amelio when Apple bought NeXT. Amelio figured that he could hold a keynote with Woz and Jobs on the stage and talk about how bright the future would be with both Steves back together again. Jobs refused to appear with Woz. Jobs then proceeded to stab Amelio in the back, convincing the board to fire Amelio and hire him as CEO. The interim CEO bit was only cutesy feel-good. Jobs never intends to leave the CEO seat again, unless it's training his successor and even then, look for the puppet strings.
amelio was a dolt. he lost over $1 billion in 1 quarter. but what was your point with this?

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
The soul is an illusion. Apple is a business and Jobs is a businessman. He gets to choose who he puts on his board, and he's put Al Gore. If he saw political value and marketing value in someone else, he would use that someone else, regardless of political party or position.
you think? really? would he put cheney on the board?

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
And, Apple has acknowledged that Rush Limbaugh is a Mac user. It doesn't fit into their marketing campaigns, because they know that they want to also appeal to touchy-feely folks like yourself. And the truth is, they also know that Mr. Limbaugh does their marketing for them when he talks about his Apple products. Why pay for what he provides for free? But they do acknowledge it, and provide Mr. Limbaugh with support. Would you have them withhold support from him, simply because you don't like his views?
please provide links to apple acknowledge rush? i remember a video of rush saying something about fixing something about leopard...didn't he say something like i know jobs and i have different political points of views...?

please explain the marketing campaign. who are they targeting and why would rush not fit into it? think a bout this a little please.

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vmarks
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Feb 25, 2008, 12:05 AM
 
You haven't read what I wrote. I can tell because you're asking me for links to show that Apple has acknowledged Rush as a mac user, when it's clear that Apple has provided support to Rush to resolve the issues he was having with Time Machine.

I brought up Amelio, because it establishes a pattern. Jobs screws over friends and partners with ease when it suits him to do so. This isn't really a behavior pattern I associate with hippies. More evidence is available through folklore.org - see for example Andy Hertzfield's going away dinner, where Jobs tells Andy "the one thing I really like about you is how easy it is to make you cry." or something to that effect. Again, it's just not really very hippie-like.

But it gives you warm-fuzzies to think you're buying from a company whose founder is a hippie rather than some heartless company.

I believe if it would help business, Jobs would put Rove, Cheney, and Gingrich on the board. They're three very smart men. However, I think we can agree that there's little benefit to doing so right now, and it would damage Apple's perception in the minds of people like yourself.

Gore has political capital as long as people remember him, believe that he should run for office again at some future date, and he stays in the limelight. You think he can't get Congressmen on the phone whenever he pleases? You think Howard Dean doesn't return his calls?

He joined the board after his Keynote presentation, but before the release of his movie.
     
ironknee  (op)
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Feb 25, 2008, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
You haven't read what I wrote. I can tell because you're asking me for links to show that Apple has acknowledged Rush as a mac user, when it's clear that Apple has provided support to Rush to resolve the issues he was having with Time Machine.
you mean apple support helped him with time machine? like apple support would do with any customer?

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
I brought up Amelio, because it establishes a pattern. Jobs screws over friends and partners with ease when it suits him to do so. This isn't really a behavior pattern I associate with hippies. More evidence is available through folklore.org - see for example Andy Hertzfield's going away dinner, where Jobs tells Andy "the one thing I really like about you is how easy it is to make you cry." or something to that effect. Again, it's just not really very hippie-like.
we are all aware of jobs as the ruthless leader with the reality distortion field, thank you. and gil was never steve's friend

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
But it gives you warm-fuzzies to think you're buying from a company whose founder is a hippie rather than some heartless company.

I believe if it would help business, Jobs would put Rove, Cheney, and Gingrich on the board. They're three very smart men. However, I think we can agree that there's little benefit to doing so right now, and it would damage Apple's perception in the minds of people like yourself.
when hell freezes! do you think i am the only person who thinks apple is left of center?

Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Gore has political capital as long as people remember him, believe that he should run for office again at some future date, and he stays in the limelight. You think he can't get Congressmen on the phone whenever he pleases? You think Howard Dean doesn't return his calls?

He joined the board after his Keynote presentation, but before the release of his movie.
howard dean? the liberal chairman?

btw, why did you make this a post under my name? did i offend you? isn't this a violation?
     
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Feb 25, 2008, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
and gil was never steve's friend
I guess that would place him under the category of "and partners."
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Feb 25, 2008, 02:39 PM
 
Well, speaking as the support person for the NC Republican Party and the NC Democrat Party, not to mention NCCBI (liberal think tank) and the John Locke Foundation (conservative think tank) - I truly hate to break it to you, Ironknee.

Here's is the naked truth: The Democrats have exactly one Mac in each location - for publication work. For everything else they have Dells at NCCBI and HPs at the NC DNC.

On the other hand, BOTH the NC RNC and the JLF are Mac-only.

Go figger.
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ironknee  (op)
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Feb 25, 2008, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Well, speaking as the support person for the NC Republican Party and the NC Democrat Party, not to mention NCCBI (liberal think tank) and the John Locke Foundation (conservative think tank) - I truly hate to break it to you, Ironknee.

Here's is the naked truth: The Democrats have exactly one Mac in each location - for publication work. For everything else they have Dells at NCCBI and HPs at the NC DNC.

On the other hand, BOTH the NC RNC and the JLF are Mac-only.

Go figger.
cool. conservatives being enlightened, finally.

so does that mean apple is a right wing company?
     
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Feb 25, 2008, 03:24 PM
 
They're a "wherever the most money is" company. Apple targets it's products at the group with the largest amount of disposable income, which, 4 times out of 5, happens to be yuppies. They mimic the desires and tastes of the majority in this group to create loyalty and emotional attachment. Nothing wrong with that, they're just doing business.

However, somewhere along the way their customers got the idea that Apple is choosing sides, they aren't. They'll take Rush's money just as quickly as they'll grab cash from the ACLU. They woo Rush with free stuff and special treatment, just like they do with all celebs. Now, they aren't going to advertise on the EIB network, because that doesn't go with the image they've manufactured, but if Rush expressed the desire to speak with an Apple exec, or even Steve himself, they'd get back with him pronto. He's made a ton of cash for them over the years, and that's where their true loyalty lies.
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Feb 25, 2008, 04:27 PM
 
I for one am flabbergasted that people are discussing how one's choice of computer relates to one's political disposition.

greg
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Feb 25, 2008, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I for one am flabbergasted that people are discussing how one's choice of computer relates to one's political disposition.

greg
One's choice of computer relates to their lifestyle, and lifestyle often dictates their politics.
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Feb 25, 2008, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
btw, why did you make this a post under my name? did i offend you? isn't this a violation?
You do not offend me. I think your position is mistaken, but it's your position, and that's what we're discussing.

This is not a thread about you (which would be a violation.) This is a thread about your position, which I transferred out of the McCain thread to it's own thread. I labeled it as yours since you instigated it in the other thread, and I wanted you to see the redirect.

There's nothing malicious about it. I don't mind removing your name from the thread title if it bothers you greatly.
     
ironknee  (op)
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Feb 25, 2008, 08:18 PM
 
well at least let me write the title of the thread
     
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Feb 25, 2008, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I for one am flabbergasted that people are discussing how one's choice of computer relates to one's political disposition.

greg
ebuddy
     
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Feb 25, 2008, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
One's choice of computer relates to their lifestyle, and lifestyle often dictates their politics.
Uhm, yeah, so HOW exactly does the Mac lifestyle dictate translate into political views ?

W/o having to investigate further, just by looking at the daily battles in the PWL, the Mac lifestyle leads to quite heterogeneous political views. I don't see any positive correlation.

-t
     
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Feb 25, 2008, 11:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Uhm, yeah, so HOW exactly does the Mac lifestyle dictate translate into political views ?

W/o having to investigate further, just by looking at the daily battles in the PWL, the Mac lifestyle leads to quite heterogeneous political views. I don't see any positive correlation.

-t
That's an interesting warping of what I said.

It's rather simple, I'm surprised you'd even ask. Apple did the research and saw which group has the most disposable income (youthful artistic types), then they made products that would appeal to them.

One interesting byproduct, Macs do tend to attract the most obnoxious and opinionated asshats, regardless of philosophical views, like us.
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Feb 25, 2008, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
well at least let me write the title of the thread
Well, go ahead and pm me or post here what you'd like it to be. I'm amenable.
     
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Feb 25, 2008, 11:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
One interesting byproduct, Macs do tend to attract the most obnoxious and opinionated asshats, regardless of philosophical views, like us.
Have you met Windows users?

~~

I have no idea why Macs tend to attract hippies. Where I come from, hippies can't afford Macs. And the proper hardcore lefties hate Apple as much as they hate Starbucks.

Conclusion: All Mac using Democrats are only pretend hippies - shallow pretentious people who go on about leftie ideals but would scream blue murder if you took their Macbooks and mochas away from them. "The rich must die, except mummy and daddy!" "Capitalism is bad! Except for Converse." Etc., etc..

How's it feel to not be proper people, eh, hippies?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Feb 26, 2008, 12:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Have you met Windows users?

~~

I have no idea why Macs tend to attract hippies. Where I come from, hippies can't afford Macs. And the proper hardcore lefties hate Apple as much as they hate Starbucks.

Conclusion: All Mac using Democrats are only pretend hippies - shallow pretentious people who go on about leftie ideals but would scream blue murder if you took their Macbooks and mochas away from them. "The rich must die, except mummy and daddy!" "Capitalism is bad! Except for Converse." Etc., etc..
Converse is owned by Nike, who took production from Lumberton NC and moved it to child labor in the Far East.

Ethletic.com makes a fair trade knock-off version to satisfy the need to spend more.
     
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Feb 26, 2008, 02:30 AM
 
Too many moderators posting their biased or Jewish biases in here.
     
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Feb 26, 2008, 04:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Apple's success is an example of capitalism at its finest. The meritocratic idea of becoming rich and powerful through hard work done well is hardly a liberal ideal.
WTF, ‘liberal’ means ‘communist’ now? Jesus Christ on a stick, that's one screwed up interpretation.
     
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Feb 26, 2008, 05:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
Too many moderators posting their biased or Jewish biases in here.
My biases converted to Judaism and they didn't even tell me? I feel so betrayed.
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Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
WTF, ‘liberal’ means ‘communist’ now? Jesus Christ on a stick, that's one screwed up interpretation.
It is true that different people have different ideas of "liberal," but some common elements — at least as far as I generally see people using it — are a philosophy that's against big business, in favor of government aid, and in favor of redistributing wealth from the successful to the more needy. It's not exactly communism, but it sure ain't economic libertarianism either.
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Feb 26, 2008, 07:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
Too many moderators posting their biased or Jewish biases in here.
This is your progressive movement ladies and gentlemen. Championing diversity and tolerance every step of the way.

ebuddy
     
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Feb 26, 2008, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
cool. conservatives being enlightened, finally.

so does that mean apple is a right wing company?
Sorry, but JLF has been all-Mac since their inception. I think what you're actually seeing is a projection of Jobs' personal political "bent" by worshipful followers who are deluded enough to think Apple is liberal politically.

The advertising, granted, is, but I invited you to look back into Apple history to the GS and GSII, which were in the position within the business world that Windows and the PC enjoy today.

Apple may have delusions of being liberal, but they happen to be one of the most conservative companies out there.
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ironknee  (op)
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Feb 26, 2008, 05:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Well, go ahead and pm me or post here what you'd like it to be. I'm amenable.
no, no... i want to leave this as is for now as a warning not to piss off a mod
     
Chuckit
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Feb 26, 2008, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
no, no... i want to leave this as is for now as a warning not to piss off a mod
Don't piss off a mod or they'll…move an off-topic line of discussion to its own thread so that you can continue the conversation, and then when you complain about the title, they'll even offer to change it for you? Doesn't seem like much of a warning.

Seriously, how about we try to be less aggressive and get along here? Can we do that? Vmarks was going along with what you were asking. Slapping his hand away can't do anything but increase hostility. I don't think that's helpful.
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vmarks
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Feb 26, 2008, 06:54 PM
 
FWIW, I'm not hostile, pissed off, or any other aggressive state of being.
     
Koralatov
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Feb 26, 2008, 09:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It is true that different people have different ideas of "liberal," but some common elements — at least as far as I generally see people using it — are a philosophy that's against big business, in favor of government aid, and in favor of redistributing wealth from the successful to the more needy. It's not exactly communism, but it sure ain't economic libertarianism either.
I think it's important to note that the definition of "liberal" you're describing is a largely American one. Elsewhere, such a person would most likely be called a socialist, or some variant on that term, which I feel is more accurate. This particularly American brand of "liberalism" would seem very likely to be a result of the strongly negative connotations that America still attaches to the term "socialist" and all its variants and descendants.
     
ironknee  (op)
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Feb 26, 2008, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Don't piss off a mod or they'll…move an off-topic line of discussion to its own thread so that you can continue the conversation, and then when you complain about the title, they'll even offer to change it for you? Doesn't seem like much of a warning.

Seriously, how about we try to be less aggressive and get along here? Can we do that? Vmarks was going along with what you were asking. Slapping his hand away can't do anything but increase hostility. I don't think that's helpful.
how can i win with this?

vmarks thank you for doing this... you are great! ::edit:: vmarks, am not mad at you and i am sorry if i accused you of something bad. it gets heated in here

ok?
( Last edited by ironknee; Feb 26, 2008 at 11:32 PM. )
     
red rocket
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Feb 27, 2008, 04:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It is true that different people have different ideas of "liberal," but some common elements — at least as far as I generally see people using it — are a philosophy that's against big business, in favor of government aid, and in favor of redistributing wealth from the successful to the more needy. It's not exactly communism, but it sure ain't economic libertarianism either.
That's not liberalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal
     
Doofy
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Feb 27, 2008, 05:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
Yep, it is. It's this kind of liberal:

Social liberals argue that freedom from economic as well as physical coercion is necessary for real freedom. They generally favor such positive rights as the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to health care, and the right to a living wage. Some also favor laws against discrimination in housing and employment, laws against pollution of the environment, and the provision of welfare, including unemployment benefit and housing for the homeless, all supported by progressive taxation.
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