[Developer]

One of the main problems of the brushed metal appearance (besides the fact that ist's ugly) is that it is very difficult to distinguish between the active front window and inactive windows. Especially in the Graphite appearance where the only difference is minor difference in brightness of the window widgets and the title text getting gray (except in iPhoto). If you don't see the title text and look closely it is difficult to quickly identify the active window.

The good news is that Apple is apparently aware of this problem, as can be seen on the new Panther Aqua webiste:



It's a mockup only, but Apple is obviously aware that it has to improve Aqua to make active and inactive windows more distinguishable.

[bonk]

Now if we only had the option in Panther of disabling it.

I'm sure someone will comeout with a haxie to.

[Apfhex]

It's a very good point to make, and probably my only real problem with brushed metal.

The problem is especially annoying in those instances where an apps windows don't properly display inactive (like Safari did just now).

[Horsepoo!!!]

Active window = colorful widgets
Inactive window = colorless widgets

Unless did you want the window to flash, wiggle and have signs coming out of it saying "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME! I AM ACTIVE, Oooo Oooo, LOOK AT ME!!!"

In all honesty, have you ever been confused of which window was active?

Now the bad news: This thread sucks. Lock it up.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Active window = colorful widgets
Inactive window = colorless widgets

Not in Graphite appearance. And not when the window widgets are obscured.

In all honesty, have you ever been confused of which window was active?

Yes, I have.

This thread sucks. Lock it up.

You suck.

[eevyl]

Some of us care about User Interface design, and the fact that brushed metal windows are the same (except widgets) in active or inactive status is a bad bad UI design.

If you don't care about UI, use Windows

[GnOm]

Originally posted by Developer:
One of the main problems of the brushed metal appearance is that it is very difficult to distinguish between the active front window and inactive windows.

but the inactive window in that picture is an Aqua one...
(or am I missing the point?)


cheers.

[zachs]

Originally posted by GnOm:
but the inactive window in that picture is an Aqua one...
(or am I missing the point?)


cheers.

I was thinking the same thing...

[Developer]

Originally posted by GnOm:
but the inactive window in that picture is an Aqua one...
(or am I missing the point?)

It's a mockup of the new brushed metal.

I didn't do it; Apple did. As you can easily see if you follow the link to the new Aqua page.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by eevyl:
Some of us care about User Interface design, and the fact that brushed metal windows are the same (except widgets) in active or inactive status is a bad bad UI design.

If you don't care about UI, use Windows

Why is it a bad UI design?

[eevyl]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Why is it a bad UI design?

Because the current active item, be it a window, a button or whatever, must be easy to tell apart from other items of the same type. It is something that Apple did in fabulous ways in Mac OS 9 and earlier, and somehow nice in Aqua (with the translucent title bar and lighter gray in 10.3).

With brushed metal windows, the only difference is the depth of the shadow. Of course the widgets change, but they can be hidden, or bad coded without inactive states (like Safari toolbar icons), adding more confusion.

The active window is not the same thing as the inactive windows, and it should be properly noted in the UI.

[olePigeon]

I was just getting used to Aqua and now I actually like it. Geeze I hate brushed metal. I've hated it ever since they did it to QuickTime in classic, now they're doing it system wide.

[olePigeon]

Come to think of it, I really like the subtle gray buttons they use on the webapge for the "New Features," "Overview," etc. That'd make a nifty theme.

Anyway, I have a fealing it's going to become like Luna on XP. The first thing you do is disable it.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by eevyl:
Because the current active item, be it a window, a button or whatever, must be easy to tell apart from other items of the same type. It is something that Apple did in fabulous ways in Mac OS 9 and earlier, and somehow nice in Aqua (with the translucent title bar and lighter gray in 10.3).

With brushed metal windows, the only difference is the depth of the shadow. Of course the widgets change, but they can be hidden, or bad coded without inactive states (like Safari toolbar icons), adding more confusion.

The active window is not the same thing as the inactive windows, and it should be properly noted in the UI.

Oh so a titlebar that has changed color or pattern or translucency is easier to tell than widgets that change color?

Gimme a break.

[fado]

I want to see a interface that represents glass with tint effects. For example, you know the sunglasses that change due to the brightness of the sun. The inactive windows could be the clear glass while active windows will change to a tint color. Then you can accessorize your windows like glasses. Some Apps could be a grey glass, blue glass, or even pink glass. To top it all off, the motion from inactive to active can reseble the effects found in the dock.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Oh so a titlebar that has changed color or pattern or translucency is easier to tell than widgets that change color?

Gimme a break.

You really do have difficulties to comprehend, do you?

Yes, of course a title bar that changes pattern is much easier to distinguish active from inactive, since a) it is much larger, ie. the window widgets are more likely to be obscured and b) the difference between active/inactive window widgets is minimal in Graphite appearance.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by Developer:
You really do have difficulties to comprehend, do you?

Yes, of course a title bar that changes pattern is much easier to distinguish active from inactive, since a) it is much larger, ie. the window widgets are more likely to be obscured and b) the difference between active/inactive window widgets is minimal in Graphite appearance.

How the hell do you obscur the active window's widgets other than sliding them off the screen or under the Dock if it's pinned on the left-side? Please, indulge me.

It takes a lot of effort to obscur the active window's widgets.

Other than that asstacular bone-head move Apple made making Cocoa 'About' boxes leave two active windows on the screen (or two windows with colored widgets I should say), there's never a single moment where two windows have colorful widgets.

[aaanorton]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Gimme a break.

OK, then instead of referring to you as a stupid, fat, puny-minded, petty moron, I'll concede that you may very well not be fat.
Now that's a pretty decent break, I hope you appreciate it.

If you're having difficulties with some of the "big words" in this thread, you should ask for help, instead of launching into your idiotic tirade.

[rhogue islander]

It'd be swell if they offered the option in preferences of using the Jaguar theme instead.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by aaanorton:
OK, then instead of referring to you as a stupid, fat, puny-minded, petty moron, I'll concede that you may very well not be fat.
Now that's a pretty decent break, I hope you appreciate it.

If you're having difficulties with some of the "big words" in this thread, you should ask for help, instead of launching into your idiotic tirade.

Damn...but I *am* fat. Man, this just isn't my day; fat, dumb, and prone to burst into idiotic tirades.

[Person Man]

Originally posted by bonk:
Now if we only had the option in Panther of disabling it.

I'm sure someone will comeout with a haxie to.

Unsanity to the rescue

Look here

[diamondsw]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
How the hell do you obscur the active window's widgets other than sliding them off the screen or under the Dock if it's pinned on the left-side? Please, indulge me.

It takes a lot of effort to obscur the active window's widgets.

Other than that asstacular bone-head move Apple made making Cocoa 'About' boxes leave two active windows on the screen (or two windows with colored widgets I should say), there's never a single moment where two windows have colorful widgets.

I think he was talking about the *inactive* window's widgets being obscured. Or if you want an example, open a floating palette (like View Options in the Finder). Regardless of how often you think it occurs, it's hard to argue against making it easier to distinguish.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by diamondsw:
I think he was talking about the *inactive* window's widgets being obscured. Or if you want an example, open a floating palette (like View Options in the Finder). Regardless of how often you think it occurs, it's hard to argue against making it easier to distinguish.

What does inactive window widgets have to do with the active window?

I'm saying that you can easily spot the active window since it's got colored widgets, be it the close/min/zoom widgets, or scrollbars or whatever.

The only time you might get confused (god forbid) is if you clumsly drag the window's widgets off the screen or drag a floating palette onto them. At that point, you're really pushing the limits of "the only things that can somewhat confuse a user trying to figure out just which window is actually active" and there are *still* other clues such as the larger shadow, they greyed out title, and possibly other widgets to put you back on the right track.

And as Developer pointed out in the first post...this 'problem' only exists with brushed-metal. Yes, not all apps will be coded to grey out their custom widgets...heck even Apple's Safari and Address Book don't. Luckily though, the very important Finder does...thus offering even more clues as to whether the window is in the foreground or the background.

So, app developers, make Developer happy and code your widgets to grey out so that he may not confuse his window activeness as he is incapable of not covering his widgets, seeing the greyed out title, or noticing the shadow changes.

[Macpilot]

I like the brushed metal. It looks nice and clean and I don't have any trouble distinguishing between various windows on the desktop. I want more!

[nobitacu]

Well, it's a good thing the finally fixed this problem.

Ming

[Judge_Fire]

Earlier, I never remember having been too annoyed by closing a wrong window by mistake, it just happened too rarely.

Lately, it has started to occur more often, to the point where I'm becoming consciously aware that I should perhaps check which window is active, when I hit CMD-W.

I don't want to be conscious about using the UI, afraid of (even mildly) destructive actions.

I want to use it fast, trusting it to do what I anticipate even though it might be several keystrokes behind what I'm already doing.

J

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Developer:
It's a mockup of the new brushed metal.

I didn't do it; Apple did. As you can easily see if you follow the link to the new Aqua page.

Are you sure it's a mockup of an inactive brushed metal? I'm not convinced.

Active brushed metal over inactive aqua. (the picture you showed)


Active aqua over inactive brushed metal. (picture from that same page)


If you notice, the inactive brushed metal has not changed. The screenshots they show don't put two brushed metal windows together, probably for the reason that they don't look much different. If that's you're point, then I understand. But from what I quoted you, it sounds like you think that picture is a mockup of a new brushed metal inactive window, which I just don't think is the case.

[biscuit]

The other thing is that when you mouse over the inactive widgets they become coloured; which brushed metal window is active now? There does seem to be some sloppy (by Mac standards) UI design going on at Apple these days. I'd like to see Aqua (and brushed metal - in it's place of course) refined and perfected then left alone. Consistency and predictability are very important IHMO.

On the subject of active windows, has anyone else notice that if you cmd-~ in Excel to change windows then the window that comes to the front is inactive until you click within it? How useless is that!

biscuit

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I'm saying that you can easily spot the active window since it's got colored widgets, be it the close/min/zoom widgets, or scrollbars or whatever.

Wow! You really are fvcking stupid, aren't you?!

I have NEVER EVER run OS X with the bloody COLORED widgets! The first thing I do whenever I get a clean install is to head over to the system preferences and hit the graphite switch.

Brushed metal widgets in graphite have a teeny change in brightness from the normal GREY widgets to the inactive GREY widgets.

How fvcking hard is this to comprehend?

[sanity assassin]

That's true, I've bee running Safari de-metalled, and then went back to the metal look just to see how it would feel; damn it's hard to tell when it's not the window with the focus. All that happens is that the titlebar text becomes slightly greyed out, and the buttons (I also use the graphite ones) become a little greyer too, much prefer the Aqua way of making it a bit more obvious that it's no longer selected.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Wow! You really are fvcking stupid, aren't you?!

I have NEVER EVER run OS X with the bloody COLORED widgets! The first thing I do whenever I get a clean install is to head over to the system preferences and hit the graphite switch.

Brushed metal widgets in graphite have a teeny change in brightness from the normal GREY widgets to the inactive GREY widgets.

How fvcking hard is this to comprehend?

What are they if they aren't colored? They're certainly not colorless like when the window is inactive.

If you can't tell the difference betweent the graphite grey and the colorless widget, you probably shouldn't be using graphite at all and you'd be the one that is 'fvcking stupid'.

A lot of people in this thread seem to be calling me stupid (and fat), yet *I'm* the one that can actually distinguish between colored and colorless elements.

[eevyl]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
A lot of people in this thread seem to be calling me stupid (and fat), yet *I'm* the one that can actually distinguish between colored and colorless elements.

Forget about the widgets, look at two brushed metal windows, the window, not the widgets. Can you tell me which one is active? No? That's bad UI design.

Glad to know you can distinguish between colored and colorless elements, people with vision difficulties may feel different than you.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by eevyl:
Forget about the widgets, look at two brushed metal windows, the window, not the widgets. Can you tell me which one is active?

Yes, it's the window with the greyed out title and with the deeper, darker shadow.

I'm simply telling you that there are more than enough clues to tell you what window is active and you guys are all crying like little girls that there isn't.

I could argue that a titlebar color or pattern change wouldn't be enough to distinguish from active and inactive.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
What are they if they aren't colored? They're certainly not colorless like when the window is inactive.

If you can't tell the difference betweent the graphite grey and the colorless widget, you probably shouldn't be using graphite at all and you'd be the one that is 'fvcking stupid'.

A lot of people in this thread seem to be calling me stupid (and fat), yet *I'm* the one that can actually distinguish between colored and colorless elements.

I don't think anyone's saying the widgets are pixel-for-pixel identical in active and inactive states. They're saying that at a glance there isn't sufficient contrast to easily tell the difference. If you can then good for you.



BTW, regarding colour - on the active widget, the colour is 60% red, 63% green and 65% blue. In my book, that's pretty non-coloured. a 5% difference does not a coloured widget make.

Amorya

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I'm simply telling you that there are more than enough clues to tell you what window is active and you guys are all crying like little girls that there isn't.

That's subjective.

How about if you had a 5 floor building. It has two sets of stairs but no lifts. Now, people working there can all get up to the top. But then one day a bloke in a wheelchair comes in. He asks the manager why there is no lift. He's told "There are more than enough ways to get to the top of this building!"

Amorya

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by Amorya:
I don't think anyone's saying the widgets are pixel-for-pixel identical in active and inactive states. They're saying that at a glance there isn't sufficient contrast to easily tell the difference. If you can then good for you.



BTW, regarding colour - on the active widget, the colour is 60% red, 63% green and 65% blue. In my book, that's pretty non-coloured. a 5% difference does not a coloured widget make.

Amorya

Well color-impaired like the people complaining in this thread probably shouldn't be using graphite if that's the case. (no offense to those who are, I'm just trying to make a point that if you can't make out the difference, then you're using the wrong appearance color.)

So you're saying graphite is colorless? Fine...call it what you want, but there's a difference between the active and inactive, and if you can't make out the difference, don't use graphite.

Do I have superpowers? Is the general population really incapable of seeing the difference between graphite and inactive?

I may be stupid and fat, but I've got supahpowahs!

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
I could argue that a titlebar color or pattern change wouldn't be enough to distinguish from active and inactive.

And we'd probably agree with you. No-one's arguing that the widgets shouldn't change. They're saying that there need to be other clues as well!

Amorya

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by Amorya:
And we'd probably agree with you. No-one's arguing that the widgets shouldn't change. They're saying that there need to be other clues as well!

Amorya

Ok...I'll agree. There could be more clues. But I've never been confused of which window was inactive or active. I think there are sufficient hints to tell me that right now.

But I suppose for those that really can't figure out which window is active, brushed-metal could have more window elements that show which is active and which is not.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Ok...I'll agree. There could be more clues. But I've never been confused of which window was inactive or active. I think there are sufficient hints to tell me that right now.

But I suppose for those that really can't figure out which window is active, brushed-metal could have more window elements that show which is active and which is not.

Wahey! We have reached agreement!

That's rare, that is! (on MacNN anyway )

Amorya

[Developer]

Originally posted by Xeo:
The screenshots they show don't put two brushed metal windows together, probably for the reason that they don't look much different. If that's you're point, then I understand.

Yes, that's my point. Apple is fully aware that an active and an inactive brushed metal window doesn't look much different. So there's hope that they will finally fix that problem.

[SMacTech]

I haven't had any problems with determining the active windows in Panther, but I can agree that they possibly could do something to make the inactive windows have a slightly different color of the metal. Kind of like what expos� does using the default F10 key to show the front application's windows, and all others are darkened, but not as dark.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Well color-impaired like the people complaining in this thread probably shouldn't be using graphite if that's the case. (no offense to those who are, I'm just trying to make a point that if you can't make out the difference, then you're using the wrong appearance color.)

Why not? If they're color impaired they can't see colors anyway, so they might as well run Graphite.

And you don't need to be color impaired. If you're using a notebook for example the color/luminance changes with the point of view. Of course everybody can finally tell which window is active, but the cues are to subtile in Brushed Metal. Stronger cues will increase efficiency (faster to identify the active window) and comfort with the OS (fewer errors).

I don't understand how you can argue against an efficient and friendly OS.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Developer:
Yes, that's my point. Apple is fully aware that an active and an inactive brushed metal window doesn't look much different. So there's hope that they will finally fix that problem.

OK, gotcha. We're on the same page now.

I'll agree that it's a hope, but I believe it's a slight hope. To me, it's more admitting that it's not that good, and rather than fixing it, they just don't market it.

I had never thought about it until this thread. It's never been an issue for me. However, now that I know about it, it strikes me odd that Apple, of all companies, would make a UI mistake like this. It also confuses me how they seem to be making all their apps use Brushed Metal, but that's a different topic.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Xeo:
I had never thought about it until this thread. It's never been an issue for me.

Probably it has never been an issue for you, but I think most of the time it stays unnoticed if it is an issue. It goes like this: Safari window is visible, but Finder is active (without a window open). User presses command-L several times and thinks "Why isn't this selecting the URL field? Ah, stupid me, the Finder was active." So most of the time probably users attribute the mistake to themselves instead of the OS, I'd argue.

This could be easily fixed by a visibly changing pattern in the title bar. And as a bonus you get something to slide the sheets out from, and a visible drag region.

Apple must have designers to design that in a visually appealing way.

To me, it's more admitting that it's not that good, and rather than fixing it, they just don't market it.

That would be pity

[lookmark]

I like that brushed window is all of one piece and has no title bar, but I completely agree that the inactive state for brushed needs to be look more inactive. I've been caught more than a few times confused when several brushed windows overlapped together.

[KidRed]

Ah, there's no way that anyone could actually think APPLE would make an inactive brushed metal window AQUA? HAHAHAHA. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yea, to make it more distinguished, let's make it completely and totally different window altogether Ah no, haha. Sorry, but inactive metal will stay the current metal with greyed out widgets and very faint shadow. It's so ridiculous to make an aqua window the inactive window for a brushed metal window. Besides, you think that mock up are 2 brushed metal windows? Unless you think Apple after tweaking everything for Panther has already decided to re-do their metal windows but will save for the next big release next year but will go ahead and show those few metal haters that 'hey, good news, we know that it's hard to tell an active from inactive metal window so here's a mockup to hold you over for a year until we can re-do them'.

HAHA

[eevyl]

Originally posted by KidRed:
HAHA

Did you read the complete thread? No?

Do it.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Oh so a titlebar that has changed color or pattern or translucency is easier to tell than widgets that change color?

Yes, it is if you are color blind.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by lookmark:
I like that brushed window is all of one piece and has no title bar, but I completely agree that the inactive state for brushed needs to be look more inactive. I've been caught more than a few times confused when several brushed windows overlapped together.

Well, geez, you must be pretty stupid!

(Don't bark at me; Horsepoo! said so... )

-s*

[Thor]

I think a slight transparency on inactive windows would be cool. (ala windowshadeX)

Unfortunately, Apple would probably never implement this-- probably due to breaking their (already weak) perceived "metal" metaphor.

"WTF.... whoever heard of transparent metal?!?"