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clebin · Jan 10, 2003, 05:01 PM

Just downloaded Quicktime 6.1. Just like Safari and the Finder it isn't Dock-aware, hence the above.

Don't like to start a whinging thread, but for f'k sake Apple - none of my 3rd-party software is this stupid...!

Chris

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jan 10, 2003, 05:04 PM

You better not look at AppleWorks then.

mitchell_pgh · Jan 10, 2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
You better not look at AppleWorks then.

AppleWorks is still in OS 8 mode...

clebin · Jan 10, 2003, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
You better not look at AppleWorks then.

You're right... That's one of many reasons why I don't look at AppleWorks. In fact, it would be in the screenshot if I bothered to take the CD out of the box...

EDIT: I'm not sure it's even in OS 8 mode! Last I saw there was pre-platinum widgets in there..

Chris

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jan 10, 2003, 05:12 PM

I agree it is sad but at least they support more then 32 characters in Safari.

MS Entourage is also guilty along with just about every other Carbon app.

KaptainKaya · Jan 10, 2003, 05:12 PM

Um, I'm using Safari right now and it's dock aware...of course, the Dock is in the default position...

Millennium · Jan 10, 2003, 05:14 PM

It's not so much that they're completely Dock-unaware as that they're unaware of Docks on the side. Which is a massive pain; I have my Dock on the left edge and pinned to the bottom, so I know what a pain this can be.

You're right; at this point, it is inexcusable for Apple's own applications to not respect the Dock. Particularly not for Cocoa, which is supposed to be automatically Dock-aware. I mean yes, it's quite clear that Apple Wants You To Put The Dock On The Bottom, but for those of us who don't like that idea some consideration should be given, seeing as they do allow the Dock to be positioned elsewhere.

sushiism · Jan 10, 2003, 05:15 PM

ever thought maybe apps ignore the dock totally if its at the side because they cant get stuck under it? makes sense to me, otherwise it would render that side of the screen totally useless

Xeo · Jan 10, 2003, 05:25 PM

IT'S BETA SOFTWARE! QUIT COMPLAINING!

clebin · Jan 10, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by sushiism:
ever thought maybe apps ignore the dock totally if its at the side because they cant get stuck under it? makes sense to me, otherwise it would render that side of the screen totally useless

I'm not sure I follow you. It's hardly desirable to have windows open under the Dock, stuck or not.... I have auto-hide switched off, by the way.

Vertical space is so precious on today's widescreen Macs, Apple must understand why people want their Dock on the side...

Chris

clebin · Jan 10, 2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Xeo:
IT'S BETA SOFTWARE! QUIT COMPLAINING!

Yeah, Quicktime 6.1, Finder 10.2 and AppleWorks 6.2 are all beta. Thanks for that.

Chris

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jan 10, 2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Xeo:
IT'S BETA SOFTWARE! QUIT COMPLAINING!

He was talking about QuickTime though.

K++ · Jan 10, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by clebin:
I'm not sure I follow you. It's hardly desirable to have windows open under the Dock, stuck or not.... I have auto-hide switched off, by the way.

Vertical space is so precious on today's widescreen Macs, Apple must understand why people want their Dock on the side...

Chris

His point is that it is nearly impossible to lose your window under the dock if it is positioned on the right or left. So making windows jump back seems like it would work aginst the user since if like i do i have 20 different windows on the screen and at most space for 4 then some windows might be half on the screen like when you throw things to the bottm, but not all the way of the bottom.

So the point is that Apple must have recognized that the majority of people do the window dance I describd and as such forcing windows to jump back when they have no possibility of being lost on the side or the bottom until a certain point is useless.

Millennium · Jan 10, 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by sushiism:
ever thought maybe apps ignore the dock totally if its at the side because they cant get stuck under it? makes sense to me, otherwise it would render that side of the screen totally useless

Oh, if the user manually puts the window behind the Dock there should be no problem. Where the problems arise are in window creation (it should not first show up under the Dock) and in window zooming (the Dock shouldn't count as available screen space). You can manually put the window under a Dock at the bottom too.

Is it as much of a problem as it is for bottom Docks? No. But it's just as annoying, and it detracts almost as much from the user experience.

K++ · Jan 10, 2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by clebin:
I'm not sure I follow you. It's hardly desirable to have windows open under the Dock, stuck or not.... I have auto-hide switched off, by the way.

Vertical space is so precious on today's widescreen Macs, Apple must understand why people want their Dock on the side...

Chris

His point is that it is nearly impossible to lose your window under the dock if it is positioned on the right or left. So making windows jump back seems like it would work aginst the user since if like i do i have 20 different windows on the screen and at most space for 4 then some windows might be half on the screen like when you throw things to the bottom, but not all the way of the bottom.

So the point is that Apple must have recognized that the majority of people do the window dance I describd and as such forcing windows to jump back when they have no possibility of being lost on the side or the bottom until a certain point is useless.

BTW Quicktime, and Safari are both Dock aware on all sides. Dock at the bottom is a given, but grab the window at the rightmost edge and move it behind the Dock. Safari jumps back and Quicktime wont go totally behind it.

Judge_Fire · Jan 10, 2003, 07:00 PM

On a related note:

I prefer the lower right side for my Dock.

Frustratingly, the Finder mounts volumes and places new items to the Desktop Folder (downloads etc.) _under_ the Dock...

Is there any way to hack Finder's default grid positions?

J

clebin · Jan 10, 2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Judge_Fire:
On a related note:

I prefer the lower right side for my Dock.

Frustratingly, the Finder mounts volumes and places new items to the Desktop Folder (downloads etc.) _under_ the Dock...

Is there any way to hack Finder's default grid positions?

J

I'd forgotten about that... another way the Finder just ignores the Dock. I tried this myself and I actually think I'd rather the Dock over there if it wasn't for the icons getting in the way.... I used to have Workbench on my Amiga set up like this, actually. It's just a waste of a nice piece of functionality.

Chris

moki · Jan 10, 2003, 08:51 PM

It's a bit unfortunate that more programs don't respect the Dock properly, even in Carbon apps it is easy to figure out where to place windows on the screen:

/*
* GetAvailableWindowPositioningBounds()
*
* Summary:
* Returns the available window positioning bounds on the given
* screen (i.e., the screen rect minus the MenuBar and Dock if
* located on that screen).

...and there is even a way to notify you of any changes in available screen space (including Dock resizing):

kEventWindowGetMaximumSize

/*
* Sent by the Window Manager to warn of a change in the available
* window positioning bounds on the window (i.e., screen resolution
* or Dock size change). Available only in Mac OS X. In Mac OS

...and other API calls for doing things like zooming windows to a size that keeps the Dock in mind, and so on. There's really no good reason why applications (cocoa or carbon) can't respect the Dock properly (which is, after all, one of Apple's own commandments).

Judge_Fire · Jan 10, 2003, 08:57 PM

Sadly, on another related note, Undo doesn't work for Dock related accidents.

For most users, I'd imagine that the Finder, the Desktop and the Dock are seen as one entity, the so-called operating system level of things.

Finder has Undo, Dock doesn't.

I understand the problematics involved, as the Dock doesn't receive focus when used.

But it's one more Dock challenge to solve.

J

Rainy Day · Jan 10, 2003, 09:29 PM

Dock related accidents

Ha ha! I love it. Just waiting to hear that "most accidents happen with a couple miles of the Dock."

Seriously though, i think the Dock is poorly conceived from a User Interface perspective and so can never please all the people no matter how it behaves. The dialog (and complaints) in this thread seem to suggest as much as well. YMMV.

And this issue is by no means new: The control strip had some of the same problems for quite a few years prior to MacOS X. So don't look for these issues to go away any time soon (if at all).

KidRed · Jan 10, 2003, 09:54 PM

Dreamweaver is unaware as well. The properties palette sits below the file window above the dock, if ytou resize the window, the palette will move down. This is fine until you click on colors, a color menu drops downward behind the dock. There's no way to choose a color, you have to click away and move the palette up.

moki · Jan 10, 2003, 10:59 PM

well, all i can say is that the APIs are there -- bitch to your software vendor to become Dock-aware, because it is not hard to do. Don't accept mediocre Mac OS X apps!

mrtew · Jan 11, 2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Xeo:
IT'S BETA SOFTWARE! QUIT COMPLAINING!

Are you really a moderator? That's insane to ask people on forums to stop complaining about anything, let alone beta software. You need to retire and let someone else moderate if you can't take complaining. WOW! And I thought that was the whole point of beta software.... for people to complain about so that it can be fixed. Geez.

Millennium · Jan 11, 2003, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Xeo:
IT'S BETA SOFTWARE! QUIT COMPLAINING!

If it were only about Safari, that would be one thing. But QuickTime, the Finder, and AppleWorks are not beta software, and they suffer from this problem too. And as moki pointed out, it's almost sickening just how easy it is to make a program respect the Dock, and yet Apple -the company that invented this API- isn't doing it. There is no excuse for that.