[clebin]

Right - that's it! Another thread opens complaining about MacOS X's 'dodgy' new UI nonsense and MacOS 9 escapes with all its dignity intact.

So.. anti-OS 9 sentiments here please!

If you think that the Dock and traffic light buttons are ruining the desktop, that spring-loaded folders are vital to the Mac's survival, that Copy & Paste of files will destroy all we hold dear, that Aqua is just unnecessary frippery, then you are in the wrong place!

So let's begin with OS 9's beautifully planned and designed user-interface:

The Application menu

Bring back the Application menu they say. Remember how you can tear the menu off the menu-bar and you end up with simultaneously two Application menus which behave differently. One you can drag & drop onto, one you can't. How 'logical' is that?

The Applemenu

Ah yes, the once great Applemenu. You can't drag it off like the Application menu (hardly a metaphor if it only applies to one menu!), you can't add and remove items directly and you can't open documents by dropping them on the icon. How much better Windows' Start Menu really is.

The Control Strip

It's the Dock, just not so good. Many of the features are just like application-associated Docklets and we were unanimous in saying that they should be rolled into the app icon itself.

Shouldn't these have been linked off the application menu then? And if so, er, which Application menu (see above)?

What's the difference between alt-dragging an module to the Desktop, alt-dragging it to the Wastebasket/Trash. Which is the same as dragging the file to the Control Strip Modules (Disabled), dragging it to the desktop and dragging it to the Trash? What a mess!

Control Panels

I like the fact it's just a regular folder - that works - but Remote Access, TCP/IP, Internet, Modem, Location Manager just to set up the net.. Surely that was never planned!

Too Many Keyboard Shortcuts

You use Mac 7,8,9 for 3 years then discover that Alt-Ctrl-Shift-Command-L and Right-Click goes three parent directories up in the window behind the current one and selects all. I'll take the customisable toolbar thank you.

The Chooser vs. The Network Broser

Two programs to provide Network access that should be part of the Finder. In OS X it is, so goodbye and good riddance to you both.

Multiple Users

OS 9's system was never more than a workaround, a dodgy hack to a 15 year old single-user OS, just like the multifinder was a massive hack to an OS that can't multitask for ****. MacOS X gives everyone proper Home directories with security enabled and a nice Go.. menu and Toolbar button for users to get there.. Phew!

Mixed UI Gadgets

Don't like Aqua? Well atleast you don't get some buttons that are Platinum, some that are black & white; some scrollbars that size according to the content, some that don't; some dialogues that are modal, some that aren't; some load/save boxes that are circa-1984, some circa-1998; some menus that appear in Platinum, some that are black & white. OS X inconsistent? Not compared to OS 8 or 9 it isn't.


Chris

[Boodlums]

Macs do not have an Alt key -- you're thinking of PCs.

We have an Option key.

Please get your terminology straight.

[Scrod]

Cooperative multitasking is no fun at all. It forces me to wait while IE loads a web page in Mac OS 9.

I can't use it to reliably run a server while I'm using the computer due to the absence of protected memory.


The way that the system was meant to be enhanced--through extensions--was never a recipe for stability. Come on! They were just trap-patching hacks!


The Applications menu never fit in with the whole Desktop paradigm. This is not surprising, seeing as the user interface was never originally designed with multiple applications in mind. It also wasn't consistent with the rest of the Mac OS! Menus are for choosing commands to tell a program what to do. The application switching could have been implemented better in Mac OS 9 (it certainly has been in OS X).

[clebin]

Originally posted by Boodlums:
<STRONG>Macs do not have an Alt key -- you're thinking of PCs.

We have an Option key.

Please get your terminology straight.</STRONG>

Thanks for the contribution, Broody.

Don't get all abrupt with me - You say Option, I say Alt. It's written on my Powerbook's Option key and my Amigas had one. That's good enough for me - some people call the Command key the Apple key.

Chris

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: clebin ]

[SS3 GokouX]

Originally posted by clebin:
<STRONG>some people call the Command key the Apple key.</STRONG>

But sometimes it's the only way to tell non-Mac users key combos.

"Hit command-Q to quit the program."
"It's not working."
"Umm... What did you hit?"
"Control and O"
"..."

[MrTomServo]

clebin, I applaud and thoroughly enjoy your fantastic use of the word "frippery."



Robert

[Cipher13]

LOL
Very amusing clebin

[sek929]

I'm in X right now and I have to say I like 9 better, its alot snappier and of course I know where everything is.

I am, however, highly impressed with X and since it will become the only MacOS out there thats why I'm using it. For now to get stuff done I'll be in 9 though thank you very much.

[ZnU]

My major OS 9 complaints:

Disks and trash on the desktop - who had the clever idea of putting these essential items behind everything else? There isn't even a way to bring this stuff to the front; you have to hide everything you have open.

Open apps with no open windows - very confusing for many users. OS X apps create new windows if they're re-activated but have no open windows. (At least they're supposed to; not all do yet.)

Cooperative multitasking - a web browser shouldn't be able to lock up the entire computer while rendering a page. Nor should pulling down a menu.

Modal dialogs - 'nuff said.

Finder window clutter - those of us who know all the tricks can get around it by holding down the option key all day. Many users don't know this, and have trouble managing the mess.

No Unix layer - lots of Mac users might not care, but I do web site development, and OS X's Unix layer means I can use Perl and Apache on the same machine as Photoshop and Dreamweaver.

I've got lots more, but that's enough for now ;-)

[lucylawless]

Alt-Ctrl-Shift-Command-L and Right-Click goes three parent directories up in the window behind the current one and selects all.

This command doesn't work for me! Not in OS 8.6, 9.1 or 10.0.4! If apple doesn't fix this bug in 10.0.5, I'm switching back to DOS!

funny stuff. I never realized how much waiting I used to do pre-X, until I went back all last week to back up my hard drive on CD. You can't do anything while IE renders a page, and the finder wasn't all that smart either (I constantly have to double-click twice on folders because they don't open a new window the first time, or the window is blank.

btw, I have an Alt key, too, because my *windows* keyboard costs $8 and is lighter and has wider keys than the $60 apple keyboard. Actually, I have one problem with it: unless I disable the second mouse button, the keyboard sends a constant signal of [control], but only in OS9 (not classic). Anyone know a workaround so I can right-click again?

[Metareye]

As a web designer, I usually need to have Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Internet Explorer, and Netscape open at the same time (and why not, Entourage). Can you guess how many times I've had to reboot because of lockups? Long live memory protection.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by clebin:
<STRONG>

Mixed UI Gadgets

Don't like Aqua? Well atleast you don't get some buttons that are Platinum, some that are black & white; some scrollbars that size according to the content, some that don't; some dialogues that are modal, some that aren't; some load/save boxes that are circa-1984, some circa-1998; some menus that appear in Platinum, some that are black & white. OS X inconsistent? Not compared to OS 8 or 9 it isn't.


Chris</STRONG>

Well said. Like Aqua or not, at least it has a cohesive set of controls, not a mishmash like Platinum.

[Spheric Harlot]

1:

Somebody told an anecdote here a while ago of their corporate network experiencing random crashes.

It took ages till they'd traced the problem to (get this):

People holding down the mouse button while perusing menu options. This would lock up the computer and time out the network, causing a crash.

That's not even funny, anymore.

I *love* being able to hold a scroll bar and knowing that Carracho will *not* break off the thirty-meg download in the background that I've waited in line for two hours for - because of a failed ping.


2:

You *can* bring the Desktop to the front and access your disks even if you have windows in front of it in OS 9.

a) Click on free area of Desktop.
b) Start typing first few letters of name of drive (make sure you know exactly what's on your desktop) or tab through till you think you've selected what you want to open.
c) Hit Command(or Apple or Open-Apple)-O
d) close the damn thing and try again.

-chris.

[rogerkylin]

My OS9 gripes... without extensions, I'm not sure how these translate into X.

Corrupting preferences:

Like above, I don't know if this will be fixed, but I'm tired of applications not working properly because their preferences (or other data) was corrupted. I have VideoShop with the InterView USB video capture and I have to throw away the VS prefs. every time.

Extention manager:

I don't even know what half of the extentions are. Sometimes it just stops working. My classic partition does not currently have a working version...'unexpectedly quits' every time. I'll wipe everything when 10.1/9.2 comes out.

Extention conflicts:

I don't think I need to say anything about this.

Cooporative multitasking.

Try doing anything while running code compiled by the Absoft fortran compiler. It uses EVERYTHING. (unless you use the almost useless 'nice' option).

Memory management:

Having to quit an application to free up a large enough contingent block of memory....ARGH (At least we had Peek-a-boo).

No memory protection:

I really screwed some things up when some C-code was calling arrays out-of-bounds... (Thanks goodness for TechTool Pro).

**********************************

I know X is lacking on the speed, but that will come in time.

[Zadian]

Platinum is to dark, depressing and not the original Mac OS theme. System 7 had the original theme - white with black stripes (in the window title bar). Compared to System 7 the Aqua theme is much more like the original Mac than Platinum.

System 7 had one control panel, Mac OS X has one app "system preferences" - everything in one place.

System 7 had no control strip, no windowshade, no springloaded folders and no tear of application menu. Mac OS X has no - guess what.

System 7 had a clear GUI and so has Mac OS X, Mac OS 9 has a thrown together GUI with some user requested features and all in the dark grey of windows 95.
Dark grey, that's not even a color, it's like beige, it's boring. NeXT hat a black GUI and NeXT Step was cool, the Mac had white and was elegant Mac OS 9 had windows grey and was boring, depressing and ugly.
Mac OS X has white with light grey lines, that's elegant and friendly.

So Mac OS X is much more Mac than Mac OS 9 ever was. Mac OS X provides a elegant and easy to use GUI with powerful features that are easy to find and to use (no one and a half click for fast file browsing...).

;-)

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Zadian:
Platinum is to dark, depressing and not the original Mac OS theme. System 7 had the original theme - white with black stripes (in the window title bar). Compared to System 7 the Aqua theme is much more like the original Mac than Platinum.

System 7 had one control panel, Mac OS X has one app "system preferences" - everything in one place.

I think you're thinking of System 6 (or maybe even further back). System 7 had multiple control panels in a folder just like 8 and 9.

System 7 had no control strip, no windowshade, no springloaded folders and no tear of application menu. Mac OS X has no - guess what.

I used both control strip and windowshade on 7. There was no windowshade widget, you had to double click on the title bar.


Amorya

[lucylawless]

what is one and a half click, and what does it do?

[Scrod]

Originally posted by lucylawless:
<STRONG>what is one and a half click, and what does it do?</STRONG>

It's clicking once and then clicking again, but holding the button down the second time. Under OS 9 and previous incarnations of the OS this would turn the icon into a magnifying glass and would allow one to browse a folder using spring-loaded folders, even though they weren't actually dragging a file anywhere.

[lookmark]

Using OS 9 now on a friend's iBook (my Pismo is in for repairs ), it is interesting -- and I'm speaking as a big fan of OS X here -- how easy it is to switch back to OS 9 style of doing things. (But only with the help of a half-dozen utilities and UI helpers. And of course I've been using 9 for ten years, and X for 3 months.)

It's like: a little switch in your brain you have to snap over.

That said, navigating is (as I've always found in 9) a big pain. Always naviagting the slippery Apple menu. Always managing ever-spawning windows. (And yes, I know about option-clicking. They still pop up everywhere.)

But. The thing I miss most from OS X, fab buzzwords aside, is....

(drum roll)

.... the ability to rollover a nonactive window.... and close the window w/o making it active. (enormous sigh of regret) I open a lot of windows -- while browsing, for example -- and Omniweb's ability to command-click-open links in windows behind the current one combined with OS X's amazing, nifty independent window management is (was) a constant pleasure.

There's much more, of course, but this one is sorely missed.

look!mark

I'm in X right now and I have to say I like 9 better, its alot snappier and of course I know where everything is.

I am, however, highly impressed with X and since it will become the only MacOS out there thats why I'm using it. For now to get stuff done I'll be in 9 though thank you very much.

Hehe. While we're off topic :

I want a poney for my birthday. It should be brown, and big, and strong, and smell like sour milk. I will put him in a cage, and feed him birdseeds. I'm gonna buy him nice shoes - blue shoes, and we will be happy together.

[booboo]

I populate the bottom of my screen with tabbed (pop-up) windows. Instant one click access to thousands of files. But why oh why can't these tabs be set to float above every other window?

If I drag a file down to my app's tab (say to open it with resedit) if I'm not in the Finder, then this window opens beneath existing app windows. How dumb is that?

Can't add stuff to the Apple menu directly- i.e by dragging an icon to the menu, Windoze style. Yes I know X is even worse in this respect.

[dn15]

Originally posted by lookmark:
<STRONG>I've been using 9 for ten years, and X for 3 months.)</STRONG>

You've been using OS 9 for ten years! Didn't it come out some time in 1999?

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
<STRONG>1:

Somebody told an anecdote here a while ago of their corporate network experiencing random crashes.

It took ages till they'd traced the problem to (get this):

People holding down the mouse button while perusing menu options. This would lock up the computer and time out the network, causing a crash.

That's not even funny, anymore.

I *love* being able to hold a scroll bar and knowing that Carracho will *not* break off the thirty-meg download in the background that I've waited in line for two hours for - because of a failed ping.


2:

You *can* bring the Desktop to the front and access your disks even if you have windows in front of it in OS 9.

a) Click on free area of Desktop.
b) Start typing first few letters of name of drive (make sure you know exactly what's on your desktop) or tab through till you think you've selected what you want to open.
c) Hit Command(or Apple or Open-Apple)-O
d) close the damn thing and try again.

-chris.</STRONG>

A company I used to work at had a similar problem and macs were the cause. We found the problem to be that when a mac user opened sherlock to do a search and searched the network volumes for a file (it was an NT network) it would hold the whole network up until sherlock finally decided that it couldn't find the file. This would hold the network up for sometimes two hours at a time. With OSX, they don't have that problem anymore.

[Scrod]

Originally posted by &lt;theolein at work&gt;:
<STRONG>A company I used to work at had a similar problem and macs were the cause. We found the problem to be that when a mac user opened sherlock to do a search and searched the network volumes for a file (it was an NT network) it would hold the whole network up until sherlock finally decided that it couldn't find the file. This would hold the network up for sometimes two hours at a time. With OSX, they don't have that problem anymore.</STRONG>

That's an AWESOME way to crash an NT network!!! I'm going to have to try that some time!!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by booboo:
<STRONG>Can't add stuff to the Apple menu directly- i.e by dragging an icon to the menu, Windoze style. Yes I know X is even worse in this respect.</STRONG>

How is it *worse*? The Apple menu (stupid crutch of a launch helper) has been replaced by the Dock. You can add items directly to the Dock - as yet only one layer down, but still...

Oh yeah, there was an extension that let you drag directly to the Apple menu...forget what it was called. It was a Classic Mac solution: I had to throw it out after a couple of days b/c it added to the already inherent instability of the Apple menu, crashing my machine and causing other, quirkier problems.

-chris.

[Judge_Fire]

Stupid OS 9 has no 'Modern' layer!

While being forced to use OS 9 every now and then, I find myself missing some of the OS X apps I've come to love.

Unlike the great X, this OS 9 doesn't allow me to start up 'Modern' to quickly access an app from the Other OS.

Sheesh,

[lookmark]

Originally posted by dn15:
<STRONG>

You've been using OS 9 for ten years! Didn't it come out some time in 1999? </STRONG>

Yeah, but here in my private alternate universe the timeflow is *much* slower.