[wingdo]

My wife has started bugging me for an iBook. Instead, I was thinking of getting a new PowerBook for me and giving her my current one. The problem is, PBooks haven't really had much advances since I bought mine in Apr 2004. I'll get a nicer screen (I do like the new screen), a 7200 rpm HD and a teeny tiny speed bump (1.5 to 1.67). I'm just not sure those items are worth the expense.

Looking for opinions:

Just do it cheap and get her an iBook?
Get myself the new PBook with its cool resolution?
Wait until January and pray for a nice speed bump?

I'd prefer to NOT get a 1st generation Intel machine so waiting til Jan for Intel is not something I care about.

[mduell]

As you say, the changes are minimal (and the screen lines may bother you). I'd go for the 12" iBook.

[ghettochild]

yea, get yourself the new PB with the cool resolution, display lines, flickering screen, DOA batteries, sound quirks, and what not...
I guess you'd do yourself a better service in keeping your current PB and getting the wife a 12" or 14" iBook.

[SEkker]

Go for the iBook -- but I personally would wait until Jan, if for no other reason than the G4 iBooks will be cheaper once the mactels are announced. Then again, you may decide to go with the mactel - in which case, you can keep your PB and try the mactel machine (which will run iLife, office, Mail just fine) while you wait for the mactel powerbooks to be released.

[jhogarty]

As much as I keep putting a 15" inch in my cart/basket and chickening out, I'd wait until January. It is soooo close. Even if no major break thru's, hopefully the prices will have come down, or Amazon will have another $200 rebate.

J.

[jhogarty]

{edit}
Bah stupid double post, itchy mouse clicky, curse Firefox......

[brettcamp]

You haven't told us what you're using the Powerbook for, so it's hard to say if the minimal speed bump and higher res would be useful to you. Unless you need the absolute latest and greatest, I'd stick with the model you've got (and I've got), and get the wife an iBook. But as the others advise, I'd wait till January (you can find another Xmas present for her, right?), because Apple may introduce widescreen intel iBooks then, which sounds tasty to me. Even if you don't want a first generation MacTel, the current generation of "old" iBook G4s would no doubt be cleared out via hefty discounts.

[wingdo]

Originally Posted by brettcamp

You haven't told us what you're using the Powerbook for,

Biggest thing which strains my current PowerBook (OK, the ONLY thing) is World of Warcraft. I think the 7200 RPM hard drive would help there, and perhaps the faster RAM would too, but I doubt I would see a noticable improvement. My book has a better graphics card than my desktop, more RAM, a faster processor and plays games worse. Go figure.

What's the deal with the "display lines"? I've looked at the new 15"ers at the Apple Store several times and have never noticed a screen problem (of course if it is a huge problem, I'd imagine they would keep checking 'Books until they found one without noticable lines.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by wingdo

What's the deal with the "display lines"? I've looked at the new 15"ers at the Apple Store several times and have never noticed a screen problem (of course if it is a huge problem, I'd imagine they would keep checking 'Books until they found one without noticable lines.

Some people can see them, some people can't. Some people are bothered by them, some people aren't.
It sounds like they're most noticeable with certain colors/patterns.

[pat++]

Get a 12" iBook for your wife. That's a much better deal. The difference between your PB and the new ones doesn't justify the cost of the update. Moreover, it seems you do not really need it. Wait for a better update, and make you wife happy with a new iBook.

[rafterman]

why would you put up with the problems that plague the new powerbooks (screen lines, bad hard drives etc.) when you could just get a brand new mactel in January that would probably have minimal problems (i know that you guys are skeptical about rev. A machines)? I'm sure Apple is going to come out with something spectacular for the very FIRST mactel to be released. They will be far more careful about releasing a faulty machine with crappy screens etc.

[JoshuaZ]

A 12in. A lot cheaper. Plus she`ll like the white color. Ooooo white!

Wait for much better specs. It isn`t worth your money on the current line of Pbooks.

[wingdo]

I'll probably wait until January to make a decision, but I would MUCH prefer the very last of the PPC PowerBooks than a Rev. A Intel book with god knows what kind of problems it will have. No one will be able to convince me that the very first Intel Book out of the shoot will be a superior machine to the current one. Will I need new drivers for some odd equipment? Will it be fast enough to run Rosetta for games which may not get upgraded with universial code for ages (if ever)? I seriously doubt Sony will recompile EverQuest for the 300 of us still playing it.

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by wingdo

I would MUCH prefer the very last of the PPC PowerBooks than a Rev. A Intel book with god knows what kind of problems it will have. No one will be able to convince me that the very first Intel Book out of the shoot will be a superior machine to the current one. Will I need new drivers for some odd equipment? Will it be fast enough to run Rosetta for games which may not get upgraded with universial code for ages (if ever)? I seriously doubt Sony will recompile EverQuest for the 300 of us still playing it.

Your instincts are correct! I'd wait out this transition as long as possible until native versions of software and drivers are available and bug-free. And, Intel will have MUCH more powerful chips available later in '06 that will blow the first Mactel chips out of the water. They will become obsolete faster than just about any chip Apple has ever used.

[jhogarty]

I'd like to see another Powerbook (PPC) release. Or at a minimum, I need to have the main software I use come on dual Binary CDs/DVDs:

Lightwave, Photoshop (and the rest of the suite), Final Cut, WoW, etc.

I'm really fighting myself about getting a PB. But it is painful to work on my Dell laptop doing graphic work only to have to redo it when I get on my G5 desktop.

J.

[madmanXwater]

I have first hand experience seeing OSx86 run on current intel hardware and it's very fast. I've seen 10.4.3 run on a 3.2Ghz P4 laptop and a 2.8Ghz P4 Destop and it's G5 speed! It made my 17" PowerBook feel sluggish after only a few seconds of use. My point is that I believe that right out of the gate the Intel Macs (PowerBooks) are going to be very fast and a great upgrade to the current lineup. After seeing what I have, I'm sure that we will all be thanking Steve Jobs and Intel for finally making this happen. I'm 100% waiting for an Intel PowerBook before I upgrade mine.

Mike
Intel Macs will Rock!

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by madmanXwater

I have first hand experience seeing OSx86 run on current intel hardware and it's very fast. I've seen 10.4.3 run on a 3.2Ghz P4 laptop and a 2.8Ghz P4 Destop and it's G5 speed! It made my 17" PowerBook feel sluggish after only a few seconds of use. My point is that I believe that right out of the gate the Intel Macs (PowerBooks) are going to be very fast and a great upgrade to the current lineup. After seeing what I have, I'm sure that we will all be thanking Steve Jobs and Intel for finally making this happen. I'm 100% waiting for an Intel PowerBook before I upgrade mine.

This may very well be true. However, the real exciting Intel stuff (Memron) will not be ready till late '06 and will absolutely SMOKE the inital Intel PB chips big time! Early purchasers of the Mactel PBs will have very obsolete machines within 8 or 9 months time. I'll be keeping my credit card dry until then.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Kenstee

This may very well be true. However, the real exciting Intel stuff (Memron) will not be ready till late '06 and will absolutely SMOKE the inital Intel PB chips big time! Early purchasers of the Mactel PBs will have very obsolete machines within 8 or 9 months time. I'll be keeping my credit card dry until then.

If the initial PowerBooks are dual core Yonah chips, I don't think the Merom upgrade is going to be that dramatic. Intel's claims about Merom so far mostly relate to performance per watt; they haven't said a whole lot about performance.

[SEkker]

Info on Intel chips - yonah and its two successors:

http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2627

My read: Yonah is big or bigger jump as going from the PPC 604 to the G3. Sure, the G4 is a nice step ahead of the G3, but the BIG change was the G3 design. What was amazing to me -- basically, Yonah was competitive in performance - especially where mac os x excels in multitasking - with the best desktop CPU from AMD, while using less power under load than the AMD processor used in idle mode.

If the rumors of the dual-core Yonah PB15 release in Jan are true, I'll be buying.

[urrl78]

I just want something to run 720p smoothly. Too much to ask?

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by SEkker

If the rumors of the dual-core Yonah PB15 release in Jan are true, I'll be buying.

I hope you and a lot of others do just that. That way all the bugs will be addressed and ironed out for the Rev B I want to get!

[madmanXwater]

If you buy a Rev A or a Rev B Intel PowerBook you are going to be working much faster than the current G4 PowerBooks, simple as that. Either way it's a great step forward in performance and that's what we need big time! I've seen the future, and it's going to be glorius!

The only question left in my mind is if Apple will release Mac OS for Intel to the rest of the world? This isn't the place for that discussion (speculation), but after seeing OSx working on non Apple hardware, and how much interest there is in doing this, I can't help but wonder what the future might bring.

Mike

[mduell]

Originally Posted by urrl78

I just want something to run 720p smoothly. Too much to ask?

Can't the G4 PowerBooks do that today?

[madmanXwater]

I don't think so, my 17" 1.33 G4 PowerBook can only do 12fps on a 720p file. Anyone with a 1.67Ghz able to see how many fps it will do? I can play the 420p file at full fps but at 80-90% CPU load.

Can't wait for Intel Powerbooks!!!

Mike

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by Kenstee

I hope you and a lot of others do just that. That way all the bugs will be addressed and ironed out for the Rev B I want to get!

I thought that, too, until I read the report on Yonah yesterday. This nearly 3-year-old PB17 (revA!) was underpowered when it was released -- and it's only gotten worse.

I'm looking forward to a machine with desktop speed in my laptop. Will make doing any number of projects much easier.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by madmanXwater

I don't think so, my 17" 1.33 G4 PowerBook can only do 12fps on a 720p file. Anyone with a 1.67Ghz able to see how many fps it will do? I can play the 420p file at full fps but at 80-90% CPU load.

Can't wait for Intel Powerbooks!!!

I just tried plying a 720p trailer (Annapolis) on my 1.86Ghz PM. Didn't drop a single frame, CPU usage ranged from 68-83%; I think the CPU usage range is so wide because the chip was jumping all over between 1066 to 1866Mhz while it was playing.
With a second core and some tweaks to the architecture, Yonah won't have any problem with 720p (and may even be able to manage 1080p).

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by SEkker

I thought that, too, until I read the report on Yonah yesterday. This nearly 3-year-old PB17 (revA!) was underpowered when it was released -- and it's only gotten worse.

I'm looking forward to a machine with desktop speed in my laptop. Will make doing any number of projects much easier.

Let's talk after the Rev A Mactel PB is released. New hardware AND new software? These boards will clogged with issues. My hat's off to those buyers as they'll smooth the way for all of us waiting for Rev B and C. With Apple's accelerated timetable for release there will be even less time for beta testing. The real beta testers will be the Rev A buyers.

[madmanXwater]

I may be wrong, but I think you'll be supprised. Don't forget, Apple has been developing OSx86 for 5 years. I've had 10.4.3 running on my hp laptop for almost a week and it hasn't lost a beat. Considering this is not a supported system, it shows me that OSx86 is doing very well and should be very stable on the new MacIntel boxes. There is always some issues when new hardware is introduced, and for Apple to be introducing new hardware and a "new" OS is a big change. But I predict it will be much smoother than many might think.

Mike

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by madmanXwater

I may be wrong, but I think you'll be supprised. Don't forget, Apple has been developing OSx86 for 5 years. I've had 10.4.3 running on my hp laptop for almost a week and it hasn't lost a beat. Considering this is not a supported system, it shows me that OSx86 is doing very well and should be very stable on the new MacIntel boxes. There is always some issues when new hardware is introduced, and for Apple to be introducing new hardware and a "new" OS is a big change. But I predict it will be much smoother than many might think.

I don't doubt you. No offense, but that's a sample of one. Somebody else running a different combination of programs, devices, drivers, etc. from yours could have a very different experience.

Let's hope it is a smooth transition. But, history has shown that these major migrations are typically not smooth and the Rev A is soon replaced with a Rev B or C that builds upon the lessons and "pain" of the initial release. Time will tell.

[jamil5454]

Originally Posted by Kenstee

Let's talk after the Rev A Mactel PB is released. New hardware AND new software? These boards will clogged with issues. My hat's off to those buyers as they'll smooth the way for all of us waiting for Rev B and C. With Apple's accelerated timetable for release there will be even less time for beta testing. The real beta testers will be the Rev A buyers.

OS X has been simultaneously and equally developed for Intel and PPC ever since the start. Don't you think Apple had to have had Intel machines lying around for all these years to do the development on?

Not only that, but OS X is based off of NeXtStep which also ran on Intel, and FreeBSD which too has a long history on Intel. Seeing as this is one the biggest switches in Apple history, I don't think there'll be too many bugs to iron out.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

OS X has been simultaneously and equally developed for Intel and PPC ever since the start. Don't you think Apple had to have had Intel machines lying around for all these years to do the development on?

Not only that, but OS X is based off of NeXtStep which also ran on Intel, and FreeBSD which too has a long history on Intel. Seeing as this is one the biggest switches in Apple history, I don't think there'll be too many bugs to iron out.

Yes, but the two platforms weren't developed equally. If I recall correctly, the x86 version only came to parity with the PPC version with 10.4.3.

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by mduell

Yes, but the two platforms weren't developed equally. If I recall correctly, the x86 version only came to parity with the PPC version with 10.4.3.

I'm not so sure about that. Apple has known for 3 years that they were going to replace their G4 in laptops with a new chip (ie. they would be making a new motherboard). I cannot believe they would not have a full-blown effort based on intel chips, when it was obvious the mobile G5 chip was going to be a real problem to engineer.

I am not concerned that the new OSx86 will run; the real issue is whether it will be able to take full advantage of the NEW Intel architecture provided by Yonah and related chips. This has some pluses for Apple -- it means that a series of upgrades will be possible where the OS continues to make the mactels better and better -- kind of like going from 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4, this revA PB17 has gotten faster with each upgrade of the OS. The negative is that software that runs under Rosetta may not be noticably faster even when running on a Yonah notebook that a current G4 PB. This would also be a hidden bonus for Apple, as it does not upset the purchasers of ppc laptops. But in 3 years, current laptops will clearly be outclassed when the hardware, os and software are all built to fully utilize the new intel cpu architecture.

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by SEkker

But in 3 years, current laptops will clearly be outclassed when the hardware, os and software are all built to fully utilize the new intel cpu architecture.

Personally, I think it will be less than 3 years before we get to that place.

We will cetainly NOT be even close to this point of full integration and optimization in January when the first Mactel PBs are rumored to appear. Thus, my lack of excitment for the inital offerings or two of the Mactel PBs.

Quite honestly the Rev As and probably Rev Bs at least, will be nothing but a broad based beta test for Apple - which is quite typical for new hardware and software. They will uncover issues and problems that it is impossible to uncover with limited testing of their prototypes.

[Kenstee]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

Seeing as this is one the biggest switches in Apple history, I don't think there'll be too many bugs to iron out.

You have a lot of faith considering the broadbased problems they are having with the latest 15" release which is based on their current 3 year old platform and technology. If they can't get it right with the curent stuff what makes you think the newest hardware AND software (which is relatively untested) won't have "too many bugs." You're dreaming man!

[clebin]

Originally Posted by Kenstee

They will become obsolete faster than just about any chip Apple has ever used.

I'll bet my G3 became obsolete quicker than any 1ghz+ machine with any brand of chip in it.

And that includes those with enforced obsolesence built-in.
And they're not the Intel ones.

Chris

[clebin]

Originally Posted by Kenstee

You have a lot of faith considering the broadbased problems they are having with the latest 15" release which is based on their current 3 year old platform and technology. If they can't get it right with the curent stuff what makes you think the newest hardware AND software (which is relatively untested) won't have "too many bugs." You're dreaming man!

Yes, early adoption is stupid.

I go and better check my XBox 360 hasn't overheated.

Chris

[mduell]

Originally Posted by SEkker

I'm not so sure about that. Apple has known for 3 years that they were going to replace their G4 in laptops with a new chip (ie. they would be making a new motherboard). I cannot believe they would not have a full-blown effort based on intel chips, when it was obvious the mobile G5 chip was going to be a real problem to engineer.

It wasn't obvious that the G5 wouldn't be able to get the power budget down until about a year ago. Freescale has been promising new G4s for the last 3 years.
A number of the Mac rumors sites had "news" items stemming from this blog post which claims that the PPC and x86 builds reached parity at 10.4.3.

I am not concerned that the new OSx86 will run; the real issue is whether it will be able to take full advantage of the NEW Intel architecture provided by Yonah and related chips. This has some pluses for Apple -- it means that a series of upgrades will be possible where the OS continues to make the mactels better and better -- kind of like going from 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4, this revA PB17 has gotten faster with each upgrade of the OS. The negative is that software that runs under Rosetta may not be noticably faster even when running on a Yonah notebook that a current G4 PB. This would also be a hidden bonus for Apple, as it does not upset the purchasers of ppc laptops. But in 3 years, current laptops will clearly be outclassed when the hardware, os and software are all built to fully utilize the new intel cpu architecture.

Given the performance reports from current (hacked) OSX on x86 users, I think the Rev A buyers will be quite happy with hardware that Apple has designed for. Latest reports say Rosetta even supports Altivec.

[SEkker]

Originally Posted by mduell

It wasn't obvious that the G5 wouldn't be able to get the power budget down until about a year ago. Freescale has been promising new G4s for the last 3 years.

There has always been an 'irrational exuberance' for mobile G5 processors on this forum. If you look at the specs from the mobile G5 processors on IBM's roadmap from several years ago, they were not more powerful than the chip plans from Freescale. And AMD's mobile offerings have been besting both the dual core G4 plans (from Freescale) OR the vaporware G5 for quite some time. I have always believed the AlPBs were an 'audible' by Jobs to address the major gap in processor development apple was experiencing -- and these were released 35 months ago. Everything done to the powerbook line has been incremental over the last 3 years.

The reason the current update to the powerbooks has gone bumpy is the same reason the revA Al15"PBs had many more problems than the revA PB17s OR AL PB12s -- Apple's A team is simply not on the job.

I am not saying the transition is going to be perfect. I'm just saying there has been a lot of mac OSx86 development going on in the background.

We'll all know for sure in a few months!

[mduell]

Originally Posted by SEkker

There has always been an 'irrational exuberance' for mobile G5 processors on this forum. If you look at the specs from the mobile G5 processors on IBM's roadmap from several years ago, they were not more powerful than the chip plans from Freescale.

Yes, and neither of them delivered. You said:

Originally Posted by SEkker

Apple has known for 3 years that they were going to replace their G4 in laptops with a new chip (ie. they would be making a new motherboard). I cannot believe they would not have a full-blown effort based on intel chips, when it was obvious the mobile G5 chip was going to be a real problem to engineer.

Three years ago it was not obvious that either the G4s or G5s would fall down for laptops like they have. Two years ago the G5 was the wonderchip that would clock up by 50% in a year. A year ago Freescale said dual core was just around the corner. My point is that it has not been obvious for the last 3 years that they should be throwing a full, or even partial, effort into switching to Intel.

[SEkker]

http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/12/...eo.intel.move/

An interesting article -- the OSx86 has truly been in development for the last 5 years.