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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > POLL: Does the Dock Suck?

POLL: Does the Dock Suck?
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Adam Silver
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:26 AM
 
Bruce Tognazzini (AKA Tog), interface guru, says the Dock sucks. He explained why here.

I agree with Tog. I've listed my reasons why I think the Dock sucks several times on this site. They're pretty much the same as his.

So I ask you, fellow MacNNers, does the Dock suck? Yes or no. And if you say no, is it better than what it replaced (Apple menu, Application menu, Control Strip, Launcher, folder tabs, windowshade, keyboard application switcher, Trash icon) or is it merely sufficient?
     
AKcrab
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:32 AM
 
Does the dock suck? No
Is it better? Maybe
Is it sufficient? Yes
Can it be improved? Of course.
     
juanvaldes
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:33 AM
 
no, it does a great job replacing alot of those UI pieces, but it still needs to grow up some. Customizable dock (like in Finder/Omniweb) and being able to close windows would be nice.
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CharlesS
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:33 AM
 
Originally posted by AKcrab:
<STRONG>Does the dock suck? No
Is it better? Maybe
Is it sufficient? Yes
Can it be improved? Of course.</STRONG>
Exactly.

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benh57
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:57 AM
 
Originally posted by CharlesS:
<STRONG>

Exactly.</STRONG>
Agreed. Doesn't suck, could be better.
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BTP
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:11 AM
 
I like the dock. I am sure you will find some that don't.

From reading here for a long time, it has become obvious though that we here are a diverse group and a concensus is very rare.
A lie can go halfway around the world before the truth even gets its boots on. - Mark Twain
     
Jelle Monkmater
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:15 AM
 
Tog keeps talking about 'scrubbing back and forth to force the label to appear' as if it's some kind of hard labour, while those who actually use to dock know that it it's really quite easy.

He also mentions how everything looks the same and that it's impossible to know what folder contains what documents. It's half true: they do all look the same (as long as you don't decide to give them a different icon), but, really, if you can't be bothered to remember where you put something it's no wonder you have to look for it. In day-to-day use, I've never had any of the troubles he describes.

And what's this demo obsession? I *like* the puff of smoke and would hate it if I couldn't get rid of a Dock icon, but instead just had to drag it around and around. Docks that enable draggability like that are called windows under X. You can drag from window to desktop to window to desktop, and so on, as many times as you like without there ever being a puff of smoke. Well, not on the screen anyway.

Perhaps Tog would care to see how I work with the Dock, how I can locate things in it (if necessary with my eyes closed), how I keep it from being a jumble, and how I still manage to do as much work as ever.

He's right about one thing, though:
1. The Dock adds bad behavior
Tog's.
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speirsfr
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:39 AM
 
IF you use a lot of applications and IF you habitually put many tens of file/folder items in the dock then, yes, I could see how the current design of the dock wouldn't satisfy your needs.

I launch no apps from the dock - I use Launchbar instead for that.

I keep exactly two folders and two files in the other part of the dock - two of these are my home folder and my documents folder, giving easy access to my entire home directory from the dock menu.

So, for me, the dock is an application switcher, notification centre and somewhere to stash my minimised windows. It works extremely well for those functions. I wouldn't want to be without it.

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waffffffle
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:59 AM
 
I think that the only thing about the dock that "sucks" is that you are forced to use it. If apple were to bring back the application menu (as an option) and windowshade (again as an option) and put the trash on the desktop (as an option) then there would be no need for the dock for the users who don't want it.

However with 10.1 I am liking the dock a lot more. I enjoy cmd-tab and being able to hit q and h to quit and hide apps. I like having it small (os 9 size icons) in the lower righthand corner, with freefloating icons. This way I find the dock to be unobtrusive, although I would really like to get rid of it altogether, or at least keep it on autohide and only see it when I hit cmd-tab, but not while I don't have my trash on the desktop (and I won't pay for this feature).
     
Sophus
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Nov 30, 2001, 05:16 AM
 
I like the dock. I�m a mac convert, I don�t carry with me the legacy many other forum members obviously struggle with. Can�t understand why some desperately tries to make the interface look and act as os9, go with the wind, not against it. Have previously worked in linux, unix and pc world for 15 years, my mac experience have been a pleasant surprise. Loathed the old and inferior os9 though. The dock can be improved, of course. But it meets my needs in a good way.

I have dragged my application folder and my home folder to the dock and launch more obscure programs from them. This replaces the old os9 apple menu in an ok way.

Apps I use frequently is in the dock and launched from there.
I don�t understand these complaints about labels. What is the problem? I find the icons intuitive, also have no problems choosing the right minimized window to click for maximizing either.

All in all, it works great for me. Besides that, it also looks great.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Sophus ]
     
Mediaman_12
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Nov 30, 2001, 05:22 AM
 
The Dock is great. Infact I like it so mutch I use A Dock under OS9
The only real inprovement that you couid add is to be able to drag and drop into the hiaracial (sp?) menus. Tog is just bitter because no one asked him to help design the OSX GUI
     
j3kyll
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Nov 30, 2001, 05:22 AM
 
Dock suck:

Hell no, Craig are you high?
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mattstoton
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Nov 30, 2001, 08:01 AM
 
I invite all of you here to try the new forums at X Themination. You can post about anything... not just themes. You can also have REAL polls.
http://www.jamesus.com/~psycho/xtheminationforum/
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Jim Paradise
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Nov 30, 2001, 08:04 AM
 
Well.. my small opinion can be summed up by saying this-
the dock is my favourite thing about OS X.

So file me under those who think that dock doesn't suck! I find it to be one of the absolute most useful things that Apple's ever built into their OS.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Jim Paradise ]
     
GRAFF
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Nov 30, 2001, 08:09 AM
 
Docs sucks?

Hell no, I use the scale effect instead!

     
theolein
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Nov 30, 2001, 08:47 AM
 
Originally posted by speirsfr:
<STRONG>IF you use a lot of applications and IF you habitually put many tens of file/folder items in the dock then, yes, I could see how the current design of the dock wouldn't satisfy your needs.

I launch no apps from the dock - I use Launchbar instead for that.

I keep exactly two folders and two files in the other part of the dock - two of these are my home folder and my documents folder, giving easy access to my entire home directory from the dock menu.

So, for me, the dock is an application switcher, notification centre and somewhere to stash my minimised windows. It works extremely well for those functions. I wouldn't want to be without it.

Fraser</STRONG>
Agreed, with launchbar you can do a lot without having to leave the keyboard. This is one app that Apple should buy and roll into the system eventually.
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Ron Goodman
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Nov 30, 2001, 09:00 AM
 
That article is nearly a year old and had a strong whiff of sour grapes about it when it came out. No, the dock doesn't suck. My wife wants to know why it doesn't have rounded corners like the everything else in OS X, though.
     
BZ
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Nov 30, 2001, 09:09 AM
 
Ditto.

The Dock is certainly one of the best parts of OS X. I has replaced everything I used to do with Application switcher and more.

Originally posted by AKcrab:
<STRONG>Does the dock suck? No
Is it better? Maybe
Is it sufficient? Yes
Can it be improved? Of course.</STRONG>
     
godzookie2k
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Nov 30, 2001, 09:13 AM
 
no, needs work.
     
sadie
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Nov 30, 2001, 09:25 AM
 
The dock could be improved (of course). More display options would keep a lot of people happy. But there are more important things to sort out...

...like metadata...
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Kestral
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Nov 30, 2001, 09:53 AM
 
Originally posted by Adam Silver:
<STRONG>So I ask you, fellow MacNNers, does the Dock suck? Yes or no. And if you say no, is it better than what it replaced (Apple menu, Application menu, Control Strip, Launcher, folder tabs, windowshade, keyboard application switcher, Trash icon) or is it merely sufficient?</STRONG>
I think in a way, you've just answered the question yourself. As you said, the Dock has replaced the Application Menu, Control Strip, Launcher, Folder Tabs, Windowshade, Keyboard Application Switcher, Trash Icon. That's one tool replacing at least 7 function in completely disperate places in the system. For example, control strip is usually at bottom of screen, apple menu top left, application switcher top right. So what it means is, you used to have to move all over the place to get to your appls/files/folders/etc... But now, you can just go automatically to one place, the Dock, wherever you put it (I happen to like mine on the right side of the screen). I've been using OS X for my primary OS for the past couple of weeks now, but have been casually using it since the PB. A couple of weeks ago I downloaded ASM so I could get my Application Menu again, but you know what, I realized last night that since installing it, I have used it less and less to the point where I haven't used it at all the past few days. So I've removed it and don't miss it at all. I think the Dock still needs some refinements and bug fixes (ie. if you put an alias of a folder into the Dock and try to right click it to get a directory tree, it doesn't show up). As well, I still prefer WindowShade, but otherwise, the Dock is pretty good.
     
iKevin
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Nov 30, 2001, 10:59 AM
 
Originally posted by AKcrab:
<STRONG>Does the dock suck? No
Is it better? Maybe
Is it sufficient? Yes
Can it be improved? Of course.</STRONG>
Ditto
     
Mac-arthur
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Nov 30, 2001, 11:11 AM
 
I like the dock. The only thing I don't like about it is the trash can being in there. I'd like the option (from Apple not some 3rd party shareware) to put it back on the desktop! I hate the trash being a moving target and in a different spot depending on how many running apps I have. But this is a minor complaint--I'm so used to the dock now that I miss it when I boot back into 9 to burn CDs.

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xi_hyperon
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Nov 30, 2001, 11:15 AM
 
Doesn't suck, works well, and as with most things, can use improvements. Tog, although smart, is sometimes a bitter man.

Dock = good thing.
     
xyber233
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Nov 30, 2001, 11:18 AM
 
I like the dock. It is very functional and I really like minimizing.
     
seb2
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Nov 30, 2001, 11:45 AM
 
the dock is absolutely great! whenever i'm in os 9 (which happens no more than once a month), i desperately miss it.

one of the few things i'd like to see improved is to have menus for minimized windows in it instead of just showing the greyed out name of the window, a "close" option would be a good start.
in the far future, i'd also like to be able to drag documents to applications that are inside a folder in the dock -- if you get what i mean.
     
livemotion
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Nov 30, 2001, 12:02 PM
 
Like the Dock, however, it would be cool if the dock was able to contain drawers for multiple items that can appear perpendicularly to the dock. Kind of like a drop down menu. My small ibook screen can barely hold a few apps in the dock.
     
xi_hyperon
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Nov 30, 2001, 12:15 PM
 
Originally posted by livemotion:
<STRONG>Like the Dock, however, it would be cool if the dock was able to contain drawers for multiple items that can appear perpendicularly to the dock. Kind of like a drop down menu. My small ibook screen can barely hold a few apps in the dock.</STRONG>
You can do this easily already. I have two folder icons in my Dock, one for Classic apps and one for OS X apps.

1) Create a new folder;
2) Put aliases of your apps in this folder;
3) Drag the folder to the Dock.
     
kman42
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Nov 30, 2001, 12:15 PM
 
I love the dock.

The most immediate improvement should be multiple docks that can contain 'custom' content. You should be able to have one for apps, one for docs, one for minimized windows, or any combination thereof. Multiple docks would be easy to manage. When you are in the dock prefs pane, a border appears around the dock that you are currently setting prefs for. You simply click on another dock to switch which one you are editing. Close the prefs panel, and you are off to work. You should also be able to pin the docks to the bottom left, bottom right, etc.

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OAW
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Nov 30, 2001, 12:16 PM
 
Personally I like the Dock. I use it to launch/switch apps ... for quick access to my Applications, Documents, Pictures, Music, and Movies folders (all of which have distinguishable icons BTW) ... and as a place to hold minimized windows. Placing my Applications folder in the dock gives me quick hiearchical menu access to all the apps that I don't use as often and thus aren't in the dock.

There are only 2 things I have issues with regarding the dock .....

1. Magnification - This is a very "cool" feature, but because it makes the icons a moving target I generally turn it off. The fact that I CAN turn it off means that I can't say the dock sucks because of it. It's just a feature that I personally don't find very usable.


2. Minimizing - There's a part of me that would prefer to see windows minimize into the application's icon ... and then I could use the contextual menus that list all open windows to redisplay it. The advantage of this that minimizing windows wouldn't then take up more of the limited dock space. On the other hand, I kind of like the way that you can see a thumbnail of a window's contents once minimized. I guess I think it would be really nice if there were a preference the user could set that would determine which behavior the system used in this situation.

OAW

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: OAW ]
     
Zadian
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Nov 30, 2001, 12:32 PM
 
Originally posted by OAW:
1. Magnification - This is a very "cool" feature, but because it makes the icons a moving target[/QB]
I like the dock! Everything about it. It took a time to get used to it and to realize its power.
Important items won't get covered by windows and they are always accessible. I just have a 1024x768 screen so that's a real important thing for me.

I use dock magnification. I just set it a bit bigger than the normal size of the dock. This way the icons don't move to much - it's not hard to target the icon - and i get the visual feedback.
A bit of tweaking is involved, one has to find the best setting.

There is one thing i would like to see in the dock - an option to mount volumes (HDs, CDs ...) in the dock (and not on the desktop)
     
chris v
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Nov 30, 2001, 01:14 PM
 
I don't mind the dock. It took some getting used to, but it has it's place.

No magnification for me. I keep it hidden at the bottom of the screen. I use it to launch my to or three most used apps, and I've got eveything else organized in Drag Thing, which you can set to act as buttons. I highly reccommend this application to anyone who's less than totally pleased by the dock. I've got apps organized into three tabs-- Graphics, Browsers, and Utilites. The Drag Thing Process Dock (which simulates the old floating Application Switcher) looks really good set to semi-transparent.

Transparent Dock has also helped me to like the dock a little more.

CV

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seb2
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Nov 30, 2001, 01:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Zadian:
<STRONG>There is one thing i would like to see in the dock - an option to mount volumes (HDs, CDs ...) in the dock (and not on the desktop)</STRONG>
*partially* this is possible... in the finder, choose "go to..." and enter "/Volumes". a window with all mounted volumes will open; drag the icon image from the window's title bar to the dock...

for some reason, i only get aliases to the volumes that are mounted in the folder in the dock and no submenus... but you can at least choose a volume name from there and it'll open in the finder.

does anybody know how to get submenus from there...?
     
Zadian
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Nov 30, 2001, 01:42 PM
 
Originally posted by seb2:
<STRONG>
*partially* this is possible... in the finder, choose "go to..." and enter "/Volumes". a window with all mounted volumes will open; drag the icon image from the window's title bar to the dock...
</STRONG>
Yes, i know that trick but it's not what i want.
A volume in the dock needs only one click to open - it's faster and easier to use.
I don't want to move through menus - i never liked the apple menu because of this - it takes to much time.
     
Richard Clark
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Nov 30, 2001, 02:06 PM
 
I've gotten use to the dock. In fact now when I have to be in 9 force of habit has me trying to pull up the dock. Does it suck? For the most part no.

It needs to be expanded and given much more versatitliy. Had Apple not given the option to drag folders or hard drives to it I would say yes it does suck. Another saver has been when programs have locked the only way I have been able to for quit was by activating something in the dock first. Then I'm able to access the Apple Menu and force quit.

Personally I like the Apple menu and the flexibility that was available in the older OS's. I had it exactly how I wanted it. Very clean, very minimal and very functional. Moving the Special menu under the Apple menu and locking out any possiblity of configurability was not welcomed.

The dock in many ways is a enhanced launcher and offshoot of the Windoze task bar. But as many have mentioned it is a poor solution when there are large number of files and applications that need to reside in the Dock. Apple of course is trying to make the Dock a central hub for everything. While it incorporates the above mentioned programs that's fine, but they have a long way to go.

The Dock doesn't suck but I won't hail it as the mighty tool Apple wants us to think of it as either. It works but Apple needs to listen to the thousands of comments sent to them regarding expanding the Docks ability.
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shortcipher
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Nov 30, 2001, 02:22 PM
 
the dock is just a replacement for the tear off application switcher in OS8+.

I dont put folders in it because I cant recognise them.

I dont minimise window all that much, I prefer to just hide the app.

its not a control strip replacement, those go in the menubar now.

but it has one nice feature over the old app switcher, it can contain apps that arent running, so the stuff I use all the time live in the dock, thus, I become habituated into dragging files onto the dock icon, and it doesnt matter if the app is launched or not.

if you need a more comprehensive launcher, get Dragthing.

to people new to the Mac however the dock is cool. They dont miss the old way because they never used it, its only us old timers who dont like it. (despite what Tog says). Most people dont notice its failings, hell they probably even like the magnification!
     
Guy Incognito
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Nov 30, 2001, 02:27 PM
 
Well I just recently started a thread on the ArsTechnica Mac forum about how the Dock used to suck but really is a powerful tool now that people are using some of the old OS X 10.0 dock features and some of the new OS X 10.1 dock features.

Why the Dock doesn't suck half as much as people make it out to be
     
King Kong
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Nov 30, 2001, 02:29 PM
 
The dock as a launcher:

Is great only if you have a very few apps. Once you start using a bunch of apps, the dock sucks because there is no way to both subcategorize and label categories. If you work with lots of applications, you dock will quickly become filled (and hard to read) or if you use folders to categorize you will be stuck with faceless folders that take seemingly forever to pop-up.

Better solution:

Labeled spring-loaded pop-up tabbed windows. This allows both organization and quick access to lots of apps. In OS 9 this method allows me to quickly access about 120 apps/documents with no confusion and 2 click access.

Dropdrawers allows you to sort of do this, by setting pop-up tabs, but drop drawers lacks the simplicity of the dock when it comes to installing/uninstalling items.

Dock as process manager:

Sucks because if your dock is full, you have to search through to see which apps are running. I have pared my dock down to 30 items and even with this small number, it is pain to find the little black triangles in the visual jumble.

Better solution:

With Taskmenubar in OS 9 you can put the icons of all the running apps up in the left-hand corner of the menu bar (with the option of highlighting the running app and dimming the background apps). This is by far the best solution to process management I have found. All running apps are grouped, clearly visible, and switchable with one click.

In dragthing it is also possible to set up a nice process dock (translucent), but because it must reside somewhere on the screen it is slightly less useful.

Dock as window minimizer:

I personally find the dock useless in this regard although others would disagree. I find, in order for the minimized windows to be useful they have to be gigantic. Also I normally use only text windows which all look the same when minimized.

Solution: Windowshade for OS X

Dock as trash:

Sucks because the trash is always a moving target. Even if you pin the dock in the corner, the trash often moves off the screen when you are scrubbing the dock.

Solution: trash pinned to a corner or back on the desktop.

Other dock issues:

-I don't want the dock to take up too much screen space so I make it pretty small. The problem with this is that OS X icons often look horrible when reduced to 32x32 or smaller. Even cool features like using dock icons to show information (like mail showing the number of new emails) becomes useless at these small sizes).

Solution: Always include hand tooled 16x16 and 32x32 icons. When icons are used for notification (like in mail.app), special case small sizes to show information clearly at those sizes.

-There are always some people who would prefer persistent labels. Obviously the current labeling scheme could not be used if labels are to be constantly visible, but there are many other strategies for labeling which might work. Persistent labels should always be an option.

-In many ways the dock is underused. For example the finder icon should change to indicate classic is running. We should have many more options off the contextual menu that emerges from the finder icon (right now we have the option to quit or to switch to a particular window...we should also have a, new window option, a start classic option, and so on).

-Application icons in the dock should have a "get info" option as well as "show in finder" option.

-Grouping options (for running apps, for apps vs documents), might also improve the dock.

-The ability to have more than one dock might help (for example we might have a process dock and a launcher dock)...

-We should have a way to quick hide the dock when it gets in the way of a window's scroll bars...

And so on...
     
CAM
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:18 PM
 
Actually, I am starting to love the dock. I love that it is "Command Central".

For me, it's great having no drives on the desktop to take up real estate or have to dig for. The dock can hold all of my drives and can create what amounts to multiple Apple menus plus the trash is right there - all accessible, all the time.

I do think that it will mature over time. I would like to see it become more customizable in a fashion very much like the finder toolbar. I actually would like to be able to add separators.
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iSore
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Nov 30, 2001, 03:42 PM
 
You need TinkerTool to enable to the "suck" function.

- - -

Nah, I don't dislike the Dock. I suspect that how one feels about it depends largely on how you use it. Mine is a switcher, a place for minimized windows, and the trash. And that's it. Nothing lives in my Dock: no unlaunched applications, no shortcut folders, nada. Both DragThing and LaunchBar cover those needs. Of course, I'd love for the functionalities those programs afford me to find their way into the OS.

But I ain't holding my breath.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: iSore ]
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
     
Adam Silver  (op)
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>Tog keeps talking about 'scrubbing back and forth to force the label to appear' as if it's some kind of hard labour, while those who actually use to dock know that it it's really quite easy.</STRONG>
It may not be hard to find an individual item when there are only a few unlike items in the Dock, try doing the same when you have several identical folder icons and/or several identical document icons and/or several Word or AppleWorks or whatever minimized documents (they all look the same when they're minimized) in your Dock. This could be easily fixed by always showing Dock item text labels but since it isn't there it takes more effort to find what you want than it should.

<STRONG>He also mentions how everything looks the same and that it's impossible to know what folder contains what documents. It's half true: they do all look the same (as long as you don't decide to give them a different icon), but, really, if you can't be bothered to remember where you put something it's no wonder you have to look for it. In day-to-day use, I've never had any of the troubles he describes.</STRONG>
You shouldn't have to remember what every identical item in the Dock is. While you may remember what each one is after using your computer for a short time, when someone else uses your computer, they won't. (Despite, the fact that Mac OS X has excellent multiple user features, I suspect that most people on a single computer are using a single account.)

<STRONG>And what's this demo obsession? I *like* the puff of smoke and would hate it if I couldn't get rid of a Dock icon, but instead just had to drag it around and around. Docks that enable draggability like that are called windows under X. You can drag from window to desktop to window to desktop, and so on, as many times as you like without there ever being a puff of smoke. Well, not on the screen anyway.</STRONG>
Because it's confusing and scary to newbies. When they see that puff of smoke, they think they've accidentally deleted something. Even if they don't, they likely have no idea where to locate the item that just disappeared. As for dragging attempting to drag windows out of the Dock, this causes more problems. They don't display the same behavior as inactive apps in the Dock. Inconsistent behavior is confusing. Yes, you can get used to it, but you shouldn't have to.

And for those of you who say that the Dock is no longer a Control Strip replacement, you're not completely right. While Menu Extras have replaced some of the old Apple Docklings, Apple has not told third party developers how to create their own Menu Extras and still tells them to use the Dock for these things. (ASM and other third party Menu Extras are hacks. I pray they don't take my system down.)

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Adam Silver ]
     
Jerommeke
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:16 PM
 
it doesn't suck, i could get without one any longer

but it needs improvements; more customization, grey triangles instead of black ones when a program is hidden, make it hide such as a-dock, etc etc
iMac G5 2.0 Ghz 20", 2 GB RAM, 400 GB, OS X 10.4.5, iPod with color screen 60 GB
     
Adam Silver  (op)
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
<STRONG>The Dock is great. Infact I like it so mutch I use A Dock under OS9
The only real inprovement that you couid add is to be able to drag and drop into the hiaracial (sp?) menus. Tog is just bitter because no one asked him to help design the OSX GUI</STRONG>
Tog certainly is bitter. He didn't get along with Steve the first time he (Steve) worked at Apple. However, it isn't because he wasn't asked to help design X's GUI. He did plenty of research in creating the Classic GUI. Many of the things in X's GUI are things the Classic Human Interface team didn't include in the Classic GUI because research showed that they were bad for one reason or another. Example: The Classic close box was going to be colored red (as in caution or stop) until research showed that users move their mice towards anything red like a magnet. Going against this, Steve decided that X's close box should be red.

Yes, you can get around this by changing the appearance from Blue to Graphite, but Blue is the Default and most users won't change this (or even know that they can).

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Adam Silver ]
     
surfacto
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:22 PM
 
Lotta Dock lovers out there....
Count me in. I like the dock when used with launchbar.
It could definately stand to be more customizable though.
     
Guy Incognito
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Adam Silver:
[qb]
(ASM and other third party Menu Extras are hacks. I pray they don't take my system down.)
Wrong Batman! ASM and Massinova MenuExtra's are not hacks. They use the actual MenuExtra API from Apple.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]
     
Adam Silver  (op)
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:33 PM
 
Yes they are. Apple hasn't published the Menu Extra API's. Menu Extra developers (outside of Apple) have to pray that their utilities work as they do not have any programming guidelines to go by.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Adam Silver ]
     
Guy Incognito
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Adam Silver:
<STRONG>Yes they are. Apple hasn't published the Menu Extra API's. Menu Extra developers (outside of Apple) have to pray that their utilities work as they do not have any programming guidelines to go by.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Adam Silver ]</STRONG>
Awww for fsck's sake, shut your yap and at least e-mail Frank Vercruesse, the author of ASM, you self-righteous cocky bastard, before you open your mouth on any other subjects.

&lt;jedi voice&gt;The ignorance is high in that one, master.&lt;/jedi voice&gt;


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1"face="Geneva, Verdana, Arial">code:</font><HR><pre><font size=1 face=courier> Hi there,

I'm using the MenuExtra API. Please take a look at ASM's source code to see how to use it:

<A HREF=<font color = red>"http:<font color = brown>//x-asm.sourceforge.net"</font> TARGET=_blank>http://x-asm.sourceforge.net</A> </font>

Frank

-- <A HREF=<font color = red>"http:<font color = brown>//www.vercruesse.de"</font> TARGET=_blank>http://www.vercruesse.de</A> </font>
</font>[/code]

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Guy Incognito ]
     
ndptal85
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Nov 30, 2001, 04:56 PM
 
You know calling utilities that add back functionality you claim you cannot live without "hacks" is sort of a cop out. ASM, Classic Menu and others can make OS X look and behave nearly identical to OS 9. They are extremely safe to use, very small utilities and work very well. Despite this some still refer to them as "hacks" so that they can continue to bitch and moan about problems that have already been solved.

As for Tog, yeah he's bitter. He also considers humans little trained monkeys that all behave the same exact way to the same stimuli. No I don't automatically click on "red things". No I don't need an Apple Menu. I hardly ever used it in the Classic Mac OS. I don't miss ASM either. I did install Classic Menu and ASM on OS X but I eventually got rid of them because I found myself never using them. We all know he did a great deal of research on early UI's. What everyone seems to take for granted however is that his research was 100% correct. There was never any peer-review, there was no consensus formed. It was just Apple's labs at the time led by Tog. Thats all. The man seriously needs a new hobby. Perhaps he should go work for Sun while they retro-fit Gnome to replace CDE.
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Adam Silver  (op)
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Nov 30, 2001, 05:11 PM
 
Tog doesn't claim his research was 100% correct. He points out parts of the Classic Mac OS that should have been changed long ago and parts of Mac OS X that are right. However, zero research on human behavior was done when creating the Mac OS X user interface. This is why there have been so many complaints about X (and I don't mean simply because it's not the same as Classic) and why additions to Classic (at least until Steve took over) were almost universally praised.

The Classic Mac OS interface has changed little since it was created. Why? It was done right the first time. (Not completely, but close enough.) Mac OS X and Aqua, however, have changed greatly since they were first introduced. Why? No research was done on how people use computers when creating them. Changes were made because people complained just how bad things were.
     
Timo
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Nov 30, 2001, 07:46 PM
 
I like the dock.

I like OS X better than every other OS, interface-wise, that I've used since System 6.

Human behavior research or not.
     
 
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