[selowitch]

What ultimately is the deal with Hera? I guess I sorta missed it. Helo and Athena survive, and I guess she must have children at some point long after Daybreak 1 & 2. So she's the mother of this new race? You and I are all supposed to be human-Cylon hybrids?

Also, the decision to rough it, split up, scuttle the fleet -- when was that decided, and were there any dissenters? If I were Adama, I would give the other 35,000 or so Colonials a choice: stay on Earth and go native, or return to the stars aboard the renegade Cylon Base Ship.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by selowitch 

What ultimately is the deal with Hera? I guess I sorta missed it. Helo and Athena survive, and I guess she must have children at some point long after Daybreak 1 & 2. So she's the mother of this new race? You and I are all supposed to be human-Cylon hybrids?

Read the last page.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Read the last page.

OK, did that. Thanks.

Yeah, hearing the original BSG theme was really, really great. I choked up a bit, too.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by selowitch 

I have mixed feelings about Chief Tyrol killing Tory. Sure, she deserved it in some sense, but was it worth giving up peace between the alliance of the Colonials and the "good" Cylons on one side and the "bad" Cavil-led traditionalist Cylons on the other? Maybe he just didn't have time to think.

Did you actually think there could be peace with the Cavil-led Cylons? I think it would have only been a matter of time before he started coming after the humans and the Final Five again.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Did you actually think there could be peace with the Cavil-led Cylons? I think it would have only been a matter of time before he started coming after the humans and the Final Five again.

Perhaps, but it's beside the point in a way. Adama, Baltar, Helo, Athena, and Final Five, et al. had all decided to go that route, and IMO Tyrol had no right to abrogate the terms of the peace treaty (however hastily arrived at) for his own personal revenge.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by selowitch 

Perhaps, but it's beside the point in a way. Adama, Baltar, Helo, Athena, and Final Five, et al. had all decided to go that route, and IMO Tyrol had no right to abrogate the terms of the peace treaty (however hastily arrived at) for his own personal revenge.

About as much right as Tigh had to make the offer, I guess.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by selowitch 

Perhaps, but it's beside the point in a way. Adama, Baltar, Helo, Athena, and Final Five, et al. had all decided to go that route, and IMO Tyrol had no right to abrogate the terms of the peace treaty (however hastily arrived at) for his own personal revenge.

So, I'm not going to disagree that the series of events was a little weird and contrived. However, I thought it was much more out of character for *anyone* in the room to think that there could be peace with Cavil, that Cavil would give up Hera in exchange for resurrection (the Cylons have been trying to pro-create since season 2), that he would give up Hera without first having the resurrection technology in his hands or that the writers would actually end the show expecting us to believe that they'd all live happily ever after.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

So, I'm not going to disagree that the series of events was a little weird and contrived. However, I thought it was much more out of character for *anyone* in the room to think that there could be peace with Cavil, that Cavil would give up Hera in exchange for resurrection (the Cylons have been trying to pro-create since season 2), that he would give up Hera without first having the resurrection technology in his hands or that the writers would actually end the show expecting us to believe that they'd all live happily ever after.

Well said. I guess what really bothers me is that had Tyrol not discovered that Tory killed Callie (either because she didn't do the deed in the first place or that somehow wasn't part of the knowledge-transfer process) and/or did not decide to kill her and break the process, that presumably a peaceful solution would have resulted. It's disquieting that the "good guys" were the ones who violated the truce, although it's also interesting and unconventional.

At the risk of waxing philosophical, reproduction beats resurrection any day. Having kids gives you a more meaningful form of immortality. Resurrection just makes you into some kind of instellar groundhog, trapped in boring, endless repetition. Maybe that's why the Cavil-led Cylons pursued reproduction so avidly and why they risked so much to capture Hera.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by selowitch 

At the risk of waxing philosophical, reproduction beats resurrection any day. Having kids gives you a more meaningful form of immortality.

Huh? If we're going to call reproduction a form of immortality, it's far more abstract and less meaningful — you won't even be aware you're alive for most of your "life." I guess it's around the same level on the immortality scale as being cryogenically preserved.

[mrtew]

There sure aren't very many spoilers being posted in this 'spoilers' thread anymore for some reason. Does anyone know what the is deal with this Caprica DVD that I saw advertized during the show in Canada? I remember talk about a prequel show many pages back and I assume this is it but I'd think there'd be a little more info here by now... or are we still discussing whether that was the REAL earth they stayed on since the heavy viper hasn't been found yet. And what about the new Battlestar movie? Or is all this in some other thread?

[RAILhead]

Caprica is a whole other thing, it's own drama series, and it all takes place like 51 years before BSG. It'll explore the creation of the robotic race.

The movie that's being kicked-around is NOT connected to the TV show -- it'll be a whole other spin-off.

[OreoCookie]

I'm a little late to the show (due to computer problems). I'm kinda split. The action scenes were great, all the battles with the centurions. Storywise, hmmm.

(1) Despite Galactica creaking in virtually every scene of the last two, three episodes, it was capable of taking quite a pounding (2-3 minutes of weapons barrage, ram the hub and an FTL jump). Even if you factor in luck, ahem.
(2) This whole humongous hub/colony (just take Galactica's size for reference) is destroyed by 6-8 nukes?? Galactica took 2 or 3 nukes (don't remember) when exiting the nebula around Ragnar Station.
(3) The decision to `start from scratch:' no, no, no, I highly doubt there'd be complete consensus among the settlers. I mean, they'd really have to try to unlearn things (modern physics, etc.) … just not credible and consistent.

Regarding other unsolved questions, e. g. `What is Starbuck 2.0?' and `What are head Baltar/head Six?' don't bother me, because they're not forced to give us one answer, it's within the style of the show to leave it to the viewer.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

(1) Despite Galactica creaking in virtually every scene of the last two, three episodes, it was capable of taking quite a pounding (2-3 minutes of weapons barrage, ram the hub and an FTL jump). Even if you factor in luck, ahem.

Yeah, that is pretty suspicious. I think they were trying to misdirect us into thinking that the death of Galactica would be the focus of the final episodes. But it wasn't.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

(2) This whole humongous hub/colony (just take Galactica's size for reference) is destroyed by 6-8 nukes?? Galactica took 2 or 3 nukes (don't remember) when exiting the nebula around Ragnar Station.

I'll field this one. The colony was on the edge of a black hole. As soon as the nukes hit it, its ability to hold orbit around the hole was compromised and it immediately started falling into the center. Galactica jumped out, the colony was unable to jump or unable to counter the forces.

Truth is, we don't really know what happened to the colony because once the Galactica jumped out, only the colonists and the "good" cylons were seen. The fate of the "bad" cylons is unknown.

One thing seems to be happening in all these posts: people assume that since something wasn't explained or shown, that it is some kind of a plot hole. Get over it. The show is over. Too bad we didn't have this much discussion when the show was on compared to after its completion.

[selowitch]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

I'll field this one. The colony was on the edge of a black hole. As soon as the nukes hit it, its ability to hold orbit around the hole was compromised and it immediately started falling into the center.

I wonder if that was on the real estate disclosure form when the Cylons were shopping for homes. :-)

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

Truth is, we don't really know what happened to the colony because once the Galactica jumped out, only the colonists and the "good" cylons were seen. The fate of the "bad" cylons is unknown.

Actually we do know - they're all dead. Excerpt from a recent interview:

Moore: The final (edit) came out a little less clear on that level than I sort of intended... The idea was that when Racetrack hits the nukes, they smack into the Colony and it takes it out of the stream swirling around the singularity, and it fell in (to the singularity) and was torn apart. But as we were cutting the show for time, and taking out frames, one of the things that became less apparent was that the Colony was doomed. The intention was that everyone aboard the Colony perished.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

I'll field this one. The colony was on the edge of a black hole. As soon as the nukes hit it, its ability to hold orbit around the hole was compromised and it immediately started falling into the center.

Even that I'd doubt. Galactica took two, three hits without any serious damage (well, the light was flickering). I doubt that the damage would have sufficed.

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

One thing seems to be happening in all these posts: people assume that since something wasn't explained or shown, that it is some kind of a plot hole. Get over it. The show is over.

Well, it was my verdict of the last episode, not more, not less.

Originally Posted by selowitch 

Yeah, that is pretty suspicious. I think they were trying to misdirect us into thinking that the death of Galactica would be the focus of the final episodes. But it wasn't.

Well, yes and no. Misdirection is one thing. But they ordered to abandon ship and there were long cracks on the inside (Adama's quarters). Boomer's Raptor has left serious damage just from jumping away. I just thought it was too much of a stretch.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Even that I'd doubt. Galactica took two, three hits without any serious damage (well, the light was flickering). I doubt that the damage would have sufficed.

It wasn't the damage - it was the force of the nukes knocking it out of orbit.

We've seen when Galactica has been hit with a single nuke it knocked it around quite a bit...

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Actually we do know - they're all dead. Excerpt from a recent interview:

I would have traded a minute of gazing at gazelles for a minute of cylon colony being sucked into abyss.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

It wasn't the damage - it was the force of the nukes knocking it out of orbit.

We've seen when Galactica has been hit with a single nuke it knocked it around quite a bit...

Yeah, but not that much.
First of all, judging by the size, the mass of the colony is at least one or two orders of magnitude larger (factors of 10~100) than that of Galactica and the resulting displacement scales inversely. Even if you imagine it was hit by, say, 10 nukes, we'd be speaking of the effect of 1 nuke on Galactica -- and I haven't noticed Galactica being knocked for several kilometers. (Sorry, that's the geek + physicist in me, can't resist. I know it's only TV )

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Yeah, but not that much.
First of all, judging by the size, the mass of the colony is at least one or two orders of magnitude larger (factors of 10~100) than that of Galactica and the resulting displacement scales inversely. Even if you imagine it was hit by, say, 10 nukes, we'd be speaking of the effect of 1 nuke on Galactica -- and I haven't noticed Galactica being knocked for several kilometers. (Sorry, that's the geek + physicist in me, can't resist. I know it's only TV )

What do you think the tolerance for orbiting around a singularity is?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

What do you think the tolerance for orbiting around a singularity is?

Since I don't know the distance to the singularity -- which just acts as a big mass, I cannot give you a concrete answer. (It was said that the colony was in orbit around the singularity.) If they were too close to the horizon, they'd be crushed (that was the reason for the asteroid field). Let's take Galactica as a yardstick: her length is of the order of a kilometer. Which makes the station, say, 100 times larger. If the safety margin of the station were 100 m, that'd be 0.1 % and require a lot of precision. And it'd be terribly inconvenient close to an asteroid field. But even if you take something like 100 m as the safety margin, I don't remember Galactica being knocked back by that much. Sure, they were braising for impact, but the people on board didn't end up as pizza on the wall either. (Not that Galactica or any other ship withstanding nukes is that realistic )

However, I can tell you that the Moon (of the Earth) is most likely the result of a collision of a large object with the primordial Earth. And the Earth and Moon have stayed in a stable orbit.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Boomer's Raptor has left serious damage just from jumping away.

I was thinking about that. A flight of Raptors jumped from inside the flight pod. Shouldn't that have caused catastrophic damage to the ship?

[OreoCookie]

Well, if consistently applied, in my opinion yes.
The battle was still great.

Another thing that I found somehow weird was how long it took to plug in Anders after the jump (felt like a minute or two).

[starman]

It would have been interesting to see the raptors jump, and destroy the landing bay (intentionally).

But meh...I learned with Star Trek that sometimes you have to ease off things like that or you'll never enjoy anything.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by starman 

It would have been interesting to see the raptors jump, and destroy the landing bay (intentionally).

But meh...I learned with Star Trek that sometimes you have to ease off things like that or you'll never enjoy anything.

Completely agree, and that's the approach I've been taking with this show. There are definitely some inconsistencies but if you dwell on them you miss out on the overall experience.

[Salty]

Hahaha like the fact that they had Dell monitors 150 000 years ago in another part of the galaxy?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by starman 

It would have been interesting to see the raptors jump, and destroy the landing bay (intentionally).

Didn't they?

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Didn't they?

It certainly didn't help it any, but Boomers raptor jumping next to the ship seemed to do more damage than a flight of raptors jumping inside the ship.

[starman]

It didn't "rip Galactica's guts out" as Tigh suggested it would.

[Gankdawg]

So I haven't read every post in detail (about the finale), but wasn't that Ron Moore in front of Baltar and Six in 150K-years-in-the-future New York?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Salty 

Hahaha like the fact that they had Dell monitors 150 000 years ago in another part of the galaxy?

That was our Earth at the end.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

That was our Earth at the end.

He was making fun of Galactica having Dell monitors...

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Gankdawg 

So I haven't read every post in detail (about the finale), but wasn't that Ron Moore in front of Baltar and Six in 150K-years-in-the-future New York?

Yep.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by goMac 

He was making fun of Galactica having Dell monitors...

Jeez, sorry 'bout that. Late night post...

[Salty]

actually I think the dell monitors were on Caprica.

[lexapro]

Originally Posted by Gankdawg 

So I haven't read every post in detail (about the finale), but wasn't that Ron Moore in front of Baltar and Six in 150K-years-in-the-future New York?

No. It was his stunt double.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by starman 

It didn't "rip Galactica's guts out" as Tigh suggested it would.

Ya Tigh never exaggerates.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

How long would a raptor last sitting in a field? I remember watching one of those "life after humans" shows on the History Channel and the show claimed that it wouldn't take anywhere near 150,000 years for manmade materials to disappear.

A 200 foot long Dutch steamship was carried intact 2 miles up a river by the tsunami produced by the Krakatoa explosion in 1883. When they found the ship it was largely undamaged: the engines still worked, and had they floated it back down the river, it would've been seaworthy. However, it was left up the river. By the 1970s--about 90 years later--all that was left were the boilers: all the rest had rusted or been eroded away. In other words, 150,000 years is more than enough time for something the size of a Raptor to completely disappear.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

A 200 foot long Dutch steamship was carried intact 2 miles up a river by the tsunami produced by the Krakatoa explosion in 1883. When they found the ship it was largely undamaged: the engines still worked, and had they floated it back down the river, it would've been seaworthy. However, it was left up the river. By the 1970s--about 90 years later--all that was left were the boilers: all the rest had rusted or been eroded away. In other words, 150,000 years is more than enough time for something the size of a Raptor to completely disappear.

That really depends on the material used in the raptor and it's exposure to the elements. I would expect a military space craft from an advanced civilization to be made of a sturdier material than a steamship from 1883. Enough to last 150,000 years? Dunno.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

(Not that Galactica or any other ship withstanding nukes is that realistic )

Actually, maybe not. One of the things the special effects constantly got wrong was the fact there's no explosions in space: a nuke going off in space produces absolutely no blast effect. The effects on nearby ships would be almost exclusively brehmstrallung produced by the charged particles produced by the nuke, which will be about 80% soft x-rays, 10% gamma rays and 10% neutrons. So, for Galactica, the biggest issue would be adequate radiation shielding to prevent the gamma rays from turning the inside of the ship into a giant microwave.

Now, assuming the ship's hull is strong enough to not to melt or vaporize from all that energy (which, in the logic of the series, is given) the big problem for the structure of the ship will be impulsive shock in the ship's structures caused by the transmission of the energy deposited on the ship's hull. If the material is uniform, the shockwave will travel through and produce spalling on the back side. If the material is non-uniform you will see damage. But it won't be a huge explosion. I will be more like a a bullet proof vest being hit by a bullet: so long as the energy is attenuated properly, the person, or the ship, will survive.

Realistic? Maybe not. But fun to think about.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

That really depends on the material used in the raptor and it's exposure to the elements. I would expect a military space craft from an advanced civilization to be made of a sturdier material than a steamship from 1883. Enough to last 150,000 years? Dunno.

True. But 150,000 of erosion and weather could probably grind just about anything to dust.

[Shaddim]

I doubt a Raptor is made from regular steel.

However, 150k years is still a lot of time.

[SpaceMonkey]

Obama Depressed, Distant Since 'Battlestar Galactica' Series Finale

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Realistic? Maybe not. But fun to think about.

Nice post!
To be honest, this part never bothered me too much either.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I doubt a Raptor is made from regular steel.

However, 150k years is still a lot of time.

Who cares really. Lets just say they blew them up when they were done with em, set them on autopilot into the sun or sunk them to the bottom of the ocean.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Who cares really. Lets just say they blew them up when they were done with em, set them on autopilot into the sun or sunk them to the bottom of the ocean.

They blew them up but the scene was removed because it was "too confusing" as to what they were doing.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I doubt a Raptor is made from regular steel.

However, 150k years is still a lot of time.

It would seem not enough



Here's another alternate ending RDM had in mind for the show:

There was a point in the development process where we discussed the idea of the Galactica not being destroyed, but having somehow landed on the surface more or less intact, but unable to ever get into orbit again (the particulars here were never worked out, so don't ask how she made it down without being torn apart). We talked about them basically abandoning the ship and moving out into the world. Cut to the present-day, in Central America where there are these enormous mysterious mounds that archeologists have not been able to understand (it may have been South America, I can't recall the exact location, but these mounds really do exist). Someone is doing a new kind of survey of the mounds with some kind of ground-penetrating radar or something and lo and behold, we see the outlines of the Galactica still buried under the surface.

Although I didn't love the ending, I'm liking it better than some of the alternatives they were kicking around.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

It would seem not enough

Awe. Some.

[olePigeon]

If the Raptors were made of awesomite, they'd be around for ever.