[Big Mac]

I know moderate Muslims. I don't know of any moderate converts to Islam, however. Are most all converts to Islam radicalized? Feel free to flame me, but I'd prefer to see some valid examples that run contrary to my view.

[Sayf-Allah]

No. Only a few high profile cases are.

Next question.

[Nicko]

Go hang out in a mosque for a while and do a survey (or maintain your unsubstantiated views, your choice).

[Big Mac]

I asked for examples. Have you done the mosque survey you propose? And if so, can you share the results? If not, it would seem your view is far more unsubstantiated than mine.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Are most all converts to Islam radicalized?

Yusuf Islam?

[Big Mac]

He sounds kind of moderate with many of his statements, true. But then there's this:

“Salman Rushdie, indeed any writer who abuses the prophet or indeed any prophet under Islamic law, the sentence for that is actually death.”

And this:

“At Jerusalem, I went to the mosque and sat down. A man asked me what I wanted. I told him I was a Muslim. Now I realize I can get direct contact with God, unlike Christianity or any other religion.”

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

He sounds kind of moderate with many of his statements, true. But then there's this…

The first quote does sound kind of "radical" (though I don't know if it's been taken out of context).

The second one is merely his personal opinion, and in no way points to any extremism, IMHO.

[Big Mac]

I think it's more than a bit extreme to make the blanket statement that Islam is the only religion that allows for direct contact to God. Judaism, in contrast, states that God personally hears the prayers of all of humanity.

But then again, perhaps that's a feature of normative Islam.

[Millennium]

Most converts to most religions are impressively devout about it, at least at first. Some call this phenomenon "the convert's zeal." I would be surprised if Islam were any different.

However, does being a devout Muslim necessarily mean being a radical Muslim? I doubt it. In pretty much any religion out there it's quite possible to be faithful without being radical, and again, I doubt Islam is any different.

[mitchell_pgh]

Unfortunately, all religions have a "my God is better than your God" attitude to some degree. It's nearly impossible to reason with someone that is radicalized to believe that it's OK to kill others in the name of God.

I have no problem with any religion... I just hate to see our society slip back in to the dark ages regarding human rights.

[saddino]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I know moderate Muslims. I don't know of any moderate converts to Islam, however. Are most all converts to Islam radicalized? Feel free to flame me, but I'd prefer to see some valid examples that run contrary to my view.

Muhammad Ali is one valid example.

[Big Mac]

Yes! Muhammad Ali slipped my mind. There's one high profile counter-example.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Millennium

However, does being a devout Muslim necessarily mean being a radical Muslim? I doubt it.

I'm guessing in Big Mac's view it is.

[Big Mac]

False.

[saddino]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Yes! Muhammad Ali slipped my mind. There's one high profile counter-example.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is another.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

False.

OK. Then let me ask you this.

What is a "radical Muslim"?

[Big Mac]

A Muslim who condones, aids or abets terrorism is a radical Muslim.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

A Muslim who condones, aids or abets terrorism is a radical Muslim.

Then the next question would be:

Define terrorism please?

[Big Mac]

Please don't derail the thread. You should know what terrorism is.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Please don't derail the thread. You should know what terrorism is.

I'm not trying to derail the thread.

And yes, I know what terrorism is. But I've seen attacks on US troops by Iraqis in Iraq called terrorism. Which is why I'm asking you to define terrorism.

[Big Mac]

Okay, fair enough, terrorism is a wilfull attacking of civilians or a threat to attack civilians - i.e. "wipe Israel off the face of the map."

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Okay, fair enough, terrorism is a wilfull attacking of civilians or a threat to attack civilians - i.e. "wipe Israel off the face of the map."

Actually "wiping Israel off the face of the map" is not a call for an attack on innocent civilians.

See this is the problem I have with your definition of terrorism. You twist it and add to it just so it fits exactly with your political ideology yet at the same time excludes the terrorism committed by your side.

How about this for a definition of terrorism.

"Attacking civilians under whatever circumstances or threatening to attack civilians"?

[Big Mac]

Wiping Israel off the map means murdering millions of Jews. That's a very unambiguous phrase. Please spare me the tedious exercise of proving it to you.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Wiping Israel off the map means murdering millions of Jews. That's a very unambiguous phrase. Please spare me the tedious exercise of proving it to you.

Did wiping East Germany off the map include killing millions of Germans? No.


And it's interesting that you only care for the Jews killed in your imaginative scenario. No mention of the Christians, Muslims et al.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Did wiping East Germany off the map include killing millions of Germans? No.

Now you're just being utterly ridiculous. I have never heard anyone say East Germany was wiped off the map. Germany was unified. If East Germany had been wiped off the map, that would have meant it was destroyed.

And it's interesting that you only care for the Jews killed in your imaginative scenario. No mention of the Christians, Muslims et al.

Wiping Israel off the map means destroying Jews. Non-Jews would also die, depending on what scenario you envision, but the intent would be to perpetrate a second Holocaust (an event Ahmadinejad calls a fiction, as we know).

[Big Mac]

I asked you not to derail the thread, btw.

[Sayf-Allah]

Again, I'm not trying to derail the thread. I'm trying to get you to clarify what a radical Muslim is.

But since you aren't willing to discuss that I see no point in trying to have this discussion with you. Which also means I don't see the point of this thread.

[Big Mac]

Whatever, Sayf. I'm actually curious now to read your next outlandish retort.

[Big Mac]

I guess he ran out of things to say.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I guess he ran out of things to say.

No, I just realised that it's impossible to have an open and honest discussion with you about this.

As soon as you show any kind of willingness to actually have an honest discussion about this I'll return to this thread. Until then I'll stay out of it.



(unless someone else shows that he is willing to discuss things honestly)

[Big Mac]

I told you to feel free to continue. If you don't want to acknowledge the sheer absurdity of your previous posts, I guess walking away is a fine tactic for you to employ.

Now then, we have two good counter-examples. Any others?

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I know moderate Muslims. I don't know of any moderate converts to Islam, however. Are most all converts to Islam radicalized? Feel free to flame me, but I'd prefer to see some valid examples that run contrary to my view.

To get back to your original intent, I do have a real world personal example of a convert to Islam who was not radical after she converted. She did start wearing a headscarf when in public (her personal choice) and did not have any radical or terrorist viewpoints. I thought she would stop having lunch with me, since I'm a gay guy--but she was fine with it.

Ironically, when she converted both of us were working for a major Jewish organization at the time. No one had a problem with her religion and, in fact, everyone was supportive.

[Big Mac]

Good to know.

[mitchell_pgh]

My definition of a radical Muslim (or any religion for that matter):
- teaches (and acts upon) the concept that killing is justified in the name of god
- teaches (and acts upon) the concept of intolerance of other religions
- believes that religious law supersedes the government's laws

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

Ironically, when she converted both of us were working for a major Jewish organization at the time. No one had a problem with her religion and, in fact, everyone was supportive.

I wonder if she would be afforded the same courtecy if she was muslim and converted to something else in a Muslim nation. but thats besides the point.....

Personally, since religion teaches a "way of life"...the way to interact with your fellow human beings, o me is a big deal. but anyway....

I dont know of too many people who have converted from one faith to another.... My uncle's wife was hindu, but converted to Christianity. Religion was never really a big deal. Not really too concerned one way of the other, and shes more like a "hybrid" of both religions.

I think those who convert on their own, feel the need to continuously justify their conversion to themselves, which is why they get carried away. Those who convert for convenience (political/economic reasons) dont really care one way or the other since there is no idealogical transiion.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

I think those who convert on their own, feel the need to continuously justify their conversion to themselves, which is why they get carried away. Those who convert for convenience (political/economic reasons) dont really care one way or the other since there is no idealogical transiion.

In the West, most people convert out of convenience. It's usually the more religious that selects the religion. IMHO, it's usually a non-issue with most 20-30 somethings.

[placebo1969]

I've thought of doing this topic in the past. I've wondered the same thing. Of course, anecdotal evidence doesn't prove much. When I worked in the juvenile prison, there was a kid who converted and pretty extreme. He was what you would call a "jail house lawyer" who wanted to argue every rule.

I also had a co-worker who had converted (I think it had been a while) and was stand-offish, but otherwise fine.

So what does this all mean? Hell if I know. Like someone said, converts in general seem to be more zealous than someone who has been with that faith their entire lives.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I know moderate Muslims. I don't know of any moderate converts to Islam, however. Are most all converts to Islam radicalized? Feel free to flame me, but I'd prefer to see some valid examples that run contrary to my view.

Probably, but then again, bin Laden isn't a convert as far as I know.

But you know, if this is true, I doubt it's unique to Islam. For example, I've heard the same thing said about new Israelis (not necessarily converts to Judaism, but people who recently moved to live in Israel vs. people whose families have lived there for a long time). They say new Israelis are the most radical. I don't have personal knowledge to know if that's true, but it's something that I've heard on a number of occasions.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Most converts to most religions are impressively devout about it, at least at first. Some call this phenomenon "the convert's zeal." I would be surprised if Islam were any different.

Indeed. Born-again Christians being the most common example.