[ghporter]

Actually, feature-for-feature, I'll stick with OS X thanks. Which means I'm still going to move to Linux when I need to change, I'll just be looking for specific distributions that provide what OS X does.

By the way, bboisvert, I have never checked this out, but are Apple's updates cumulative? If I do a wipe and install, will the first update I can get implement all the fixes up to the current date?

[Big Mac]

"When you need to change"? Why would you need to stop using OS X? Are you talking about a contingency plan?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

"When you need to change"? Why would you need to stop using OS X? Are you talking about a contingency plan?

No, I'm talking about my PCs. I have a number of them performing several functions at home (games for the kid, optical drive mule, etc.) with only (for now) one Mac. When I can I'm going for a Mini and I'll relegate my desktop PC to handling those many optical drive duties that I can't easily handle with either the iBook or the Mini. Of course right now I'm using a Dell laptop at school...you use what you can afford, and this machine was necessary for work a couple of years before I retired (and the iBook belongs to my wife-just ask her!).

So I hope that makes more sense; I will eventually not be able to support XP on these Intel/AMD based PCs so I will eventually need to move to something else. Until and unless Microsoft shows me something truly impressive that makes me feel Vista (or its successor) is the way to go, I'm planing to stay up on Linux distros.

[tthmaz]

IMHO, Microsoft will still be the market leader in dekstop OS for at least 2~3 years. Linux and Mac OS X are nice OS, but just ain't that user friendly or "dummies friendly" enough yet, although more experienced users and nerds may argue otherwise...

Mayb Google may unveil an OS soon. That would be quite a scence!

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by tthmaz

Linux and Mac OS X are nice OS, but just ain't that user friendly or "dummies friendly" enough yet[..]

I think you have that backwards... OS X is generally more dummy friendly than Windows.

[meelk]

yes. its that simple.

[Kerrigan]

oooo pretty

[meelk]

Linux is looking damn pretty lately as well.

http://cto.secs.oakland.edu/~castro/NLD10video/
Novel 10, altho from what I understand most distros will be similar soon.

[besson3c]

Text legibility is definitely suffering in favor of pretty transparentness. It's quite... uh.... transparent

[meelk]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Text legibility is definitely suffering in favor of pretty transparentness. It's quite... uh.... transparent

yeah....because its not less legible for the screenshot having been downsized or anything right?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

yeah....because its not less legible for the screenshot having been downsized or anything right?

Why is a white halo necessary around the text? This is just plain stupid, you don't place a background like that under text that has to be read, I can't believe this crap is acceptable to the designers at Microsoft.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

Linux is looking damn pretty lately as well.

http://cto.secs.oakland.edu/~castro/NLD10video/
Novel 10, altho from what I understand most distros will be similar soon.

Wow, those look very technically impressive indeed!

[meelk]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Why is a white halo necessary around the text? This is just plain stupid, you don't place a background like that under text that has to be read, I can't believe this crap is acceptable to the designers at Microsoft.

its a frosted glass effect. it looks nice in full sized screenshots or in video, get over it. Its just a downsized screenshot. you're trying to pick at non-existent problems. Just because Apple decided against transparency doesnt mean its total ****. Vista's implementation of it is damn nice.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=128231 sidebar and gadgets
http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=114694 aero

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=14 more stuff..

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

its a frosted glass effect. it looks nice in full sized screenshots or in video, get over it. Its just a downsized screenshot. you're trying to pick at non-existent problems. Just because Apple decided against transparency doesnt mean its total ****. Vista's implementation of it is damn nice.

Have you read anything I've written in this thread so far? Whether it looks nice is entirely irrelevant - if it looks aesthetically pleasing to you, great. What does it add as far as improving human computer interaction? Absolutely nothing. What does it detract from, possibly legibility.

A good GUI provides clear visual cues and feedback, while providing a satisfying user experience. I suppose you can argue that this effect adds to the user experience, but wake me up when they do something worthwhile with the effects. Otherwise, I'm really not at all impressed.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

I think you have that backwards... OS X is generally more dummy friendly than Windows.

It’s what ever you learn first really. I’ve seen people that only used windows struggle with OS X and Mac PPL struggle on Windows. When you get used to one it’s always an issue to adjust to the other. Windows XP can be pretty simple to master to for just every day use.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

It’s what ever you learn first really. I’ve seen people that only used windows struggle with OS X and Mac PPL struggle on Windows. When you get used to one it’s always an issue to adjust to the other. Windows XP can be pretty simple to master to for just every day use.

It's also what people accept. How many times have you encountered users that felt it was *their* fault for the computer interface not doing what they expected it would do? How many people feel embarrassed during these circumstances?

Not only are you right that people are more comfortable with what they know, but they are also far too accepting of bad designs (in general), and are more inclined to learn how to cope with a bad design without questioning its merits.

[besson3c]

Meelk:

- Genie effect: clearly provides visual cues where the window is being directed to in the Dock (granted, the "scale" effect does this too)

- Expose animation: provides visual transition between window states

- Fast user switching cube: provides visual cue that old Desktop is not being destroyed, just temporarily displaced

- Dashboard ripple: you got me there, this is purely user experience eye candy

- Dashboard in/out transitions/Front Row transitions: provides visual transition between window states

- Drop shadows: a little harder to explain, although it theory they are supposed to imply a sense of depth (active windows cast a heavier shadow)

- Dock magnification: improve legibility

- Window "sheets": provide cue that the dialog is attached to the window, and not floating in front of it.


What have I left out?

Okay, what does the transparent title bar provide? What do flapping windows provide?

[Big Mac]

This is a fun thread - insulting Vista in various ways and watching meelk go ape shi† over it.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Meelk:

- Genie effect: clearly provides visual cues where the window is being directed to in the Dock (granted, the "scale" effect does this too)

- Expose animation: provides visual transition between window states

- Fast user switching cube: provides visual cue that old Desktop is not being destroyed, just temporarily displaced

- Dashboard ripple: you got me there, this is purely user experience eye candy

- Dashboard in/out transitions/Front Row transitions: provides visual transition between window states

- Drop shadows: a little harder to explain, although it theory they are supposed to imply a sense of depth (active windows cast a heavier shadow)

- Dock magnification: improve legibility

- Window "sheets": provide cue that the dialog is attached to the window, and not floating in front of it.


What have I left out?

Okay, what does the transparent title bar provide? What do flapping windows provide?

so, vista does effects comparable to most of the things you mention about OSX being grand, including new drop shadows, its multiple expose style states, mini pop up windows of what each taskbar button contains when you trail across them, etc.
You're telling me that because transparency (which I've already PROVEN you can turn off) is somehow different than the occasional fun effect like the ripple?
the problem here is that it says "Microsoft" on it instead of "Apple" to you.
watch the aero video and get back to me.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

It’s what ever you learn first really. I’ve seen people that only used windows struggle with OS X and Mac PPL struggle on Windows. When you get used to one it’s always an issue to adjust to the other. Windows XP can be pretty simple to master to for just every day use.

If there's one thing that can overcome poor usability, it's familiarity. Don't mistake being accustom with something as it being easy to use.

Look, I've been a PC guy since my dad first brought home a PCXT, and I'm a Windows network admin to this day. But I started using Macs about 4 years ago and it didn't take long before I came to prefer them for my own personal use. It wasn't until I saw how some things were done in OS X that I really came to understand how poorly they were implemented in Windows.

I don't hate Windows at all, in fact I just bought about $70k worth of Windows servers and I'm even switching our email server FROM Linux TO Exchange, but having seen how great OS X is, I now realize how much room for improvement there is in many aspects of Windows.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

This is a fun thread - insulting Vista in various ways and watching meelk go ape shi† over it.

I'm hardly "going ape ****" over it. I simply am not blinded by some ingrained mac fanatic loyalty to the point that I cant see the obvious: that vista has come a long way over the old windows and will provide a very enjoyable gui experience. MS isnt perfect, and contrary to the belief of people around here, neither is Apple.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

This is a fun thread - insulting Vista in various ways and watching meelk go ape shi† over it.

I don't understand why anyone would go to lengths to defend Microsoft when there is little reason to wish for their success. It seems clear to me that we'd be better off with the open source community or Apple calling the shots. What is the attraction towards a built-in bias in favor of Microsoft?

I have a built in bias for the Unix way, and I'd actually prefer it if the open source community was calling the shots.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

so, vista does effects comparable to most of the things you mention about OSX being grand, including new drop shadows, its multiple expose style states, mini pop up windows of what each taskbar button contains when you trail across them, etc.
You're telling me that because transparency (which I've already PROVEN you can turn off) is somehow different than the occasional fun effect like the ripple?
the problem here is that it says "Microsoft" on it instead of "Apple" to you.

I've yet to see any impressive Vista demos where they demonstrated innovation in communicating concepts in their interface. If you'd like to point me to some stuff, I'd gladly watch it with an open mind.

All I've seen is lame and superficial knock-offs of existing concepts, at least as far as this department goes.

As far as the Microsoft vs. Apple thing, when push comes to shove I'll take Apple over Microsoft. However, I'm in love with Unix more than I'm in love with Apple.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

I'm hardly "going ape ****" over it. I simply am not blinded by some ingrained mac fanatic loyalty to the point that I cant see the obvious: that vista has come a long way over the old windows and will provide a very enjoyable gui experience. MS isnt perfect, and contrary to the belief of people around here, neither is Apple.

Enjoyable to geeks, maybe. Will it succeed in its design goals by being easily accessible and user-friendly? I don't know. This is *far* more important than some stupid superficial appearance. Providing some new shiny thing for geeks is hardly important.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Enjoyable to geeks, maybe. Will it succeed in its design goals by being easily accessible and user-friendly? I don't know. This is *far* more important than some stupid superficial appearance. Providing some new shiny thing for geeks is hardly important.

yeah...cause I mean, its not like windows has the dominate market share or anything, right

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

It’s what ever you learn first really. I’ve seen people that only used windows struggle with OS X and Mac PPL struggle on Windows. When you get used to one it’s always an issue to adjust to the other. Windows XP can be pretty simple to master to for just every day use.

I agree here. I know people who use Windows at work and don't quite get Mac OS X when they first use it. The difference between the two (for the casual user) is apparent the first time you have to do something other than check email or surf eBay.

My cousin loved how easy it was to edit video from her new Digital video camera on my iMac. She couldn't figure out how to do it on her PC later that night when she went home.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

yeah...cause I mean, its not like windows has the dominate market share or anything, right

Wake me up when you want to talk about the merits of OS design.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't understand why anyone would go to lengths to defend Microsoft when there is little reason to wish for their success. It seems clear to me that we'd be better off with the open source community or Apple calling the shots. What is the attraction towards a built-in bias in favor of Microsoft?

I have a built in bias for the Unix way, and I'd actually prefer it if the open source community was calling the shots.

I really have no more built in bias than you do. I wont deny that there are a great many things MS could change and do better, that being said, the GUI has effectively been fixed. Its strong point, once again, is that its completely configurable via directx, and scale-able via vectors. Once more: its OSX on steroids. People are going to have it doing all kinds of nice looking, and incredibly innovative and productive things that MS and even Apple havent thought of yet, in no time. I'll agree that Apple often innovates and MS copies (at least to an extent), but doing things like transparency does show that regardless of what Apple thinks, MS might go an entirely different direction as well. Who knows what interesting uses will come out of the sidebar for example? (pinning a video applet there to watch your newborn sleep in his/her crib remotely comes to mind).
In short, it might not be perfect, but its a lot better than it was, and theres nothing wrong with that.


and when Steve gives away 900 million dollars to fight TB alone, maybe I'll have more interest in Apple

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

I really have no more built in bias than you do. I wont deny that there are a great many things MS could change and do better, that being said, the GUI has effectively been fixed. Its strong point, once again, is that its completely configurable via directx, and scale-able via vectors. Once more: its OSX on steroids. People are going to have it doing all kinds of nice looking, and incredibly innovative and productive things that MS and even Apple havent thought of yet, in no time. I'll agree that Apple often innovates and MS copies (at least to an extent), but doing things like transparency does show that regardless of what Apple thinks, MS might go an entirely different direction as well. Who knows what interesting uses will come out of the sidebar for example? (pinning a video applet there to watch your newborn sleep in his/her crib remotely comes to mind).
In short, it might not be perfect, but its a lot better than it was, and theres nothing wrong with that.


and when Steve gives away 900 million dollars to fight TB alone, maybe I'll have more interest in Apple

Resolution independence *is* useful, a reasonable amount of options with sensible defaults is also useful.

All I'm saying is, until I get a chance to play with the final copy, it's far from given that people will be more innovative and productive on it, and it's far from given that it is OS X on steroids.

Have they come up with a task bar that works well with several windows open at once, or will they force you to reload the entire bloody application when all you really needed to do was close an application window? Will their task centric interface be more context sensitive, or annoy users with "help us make Office better" at inappropriate times? Will their Start Menu offer more customization?

These are the more significant questions here, and I don't have the answers to these. Do you?

[greenamp]

The future of the Sidebar in Vista will be a wasteland where all sorts of things you install or download attach annoying bouncy things without your permission that are a PITA to get rid of.

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't understand why anyone would go to lengths to defend Microsoft when there is little reason to wish for their success. What is the attraction towards a built-in bias in favor of Microsoft?

Personally, I believe it has to do with psychological factors related to attatchment. Specifically: confidence in a father figure or role model and feelings of inferiority. People who like Microsoft like it because it is on top- the Monster that wins. It is powerful, and it hurts MS lovers to insult the power of their champion/hero. My theory is that these people had either no father figure or a father figure who was weak or unable to protect them. They need something strong and powerful to put their faith in to avoid feeling helpless or weak.

Mac loyalists are the opposite: they love Apple because it is the rebel- in a world where injustice is the rule, Apple represents those of us that are daring enough to travel against the grain. We relate to Apple because we know what it is like to be the underdog, and want to watch the little guy (or less popular guy) win. Kinda like Napolean Dynomite and Pedro Sanchez toppling the Summer Wheatley giant.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Miniryu

Personally, I believe it has to do with psychological factors related to attatchment. Specifically: confidence in a father figure or role model and feelings of inferiority. People who like Microsoft like it because it is on top- the Monster that wins. It is powerful, and it hurts MS lovers to insult the power of their champion/hero. My theory is that these people had either no father figure or a father figure who was weak or unable to protect them. They need something strong and powerful to put their faith in to avoid feeling helpless or weak.

Mac loyalists are the opposite: they love Apple because it is the rebel- in a world where injustice is the rule, Apple represents those of us that are daring enough to travel against the grain. We relate to Apple because we know what it is like to be the underdog, and want to watch the little guy (or less popular guy) win. Kinda like Napolean Dynomite and Pedro Sanchez toppling the Summer Wheatley giant.

What if I just like Apple and OS X 'cuz their stuff works best for me?

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by greenamp

What if I just like Apple and OS X 'cuz their stuff works best for me?

I'm talking about the people who swear, live, breath and shi+ by Apple or Microsoft, not the casual user who buys it cuz it works well. The stuff I said doesn't apply to most people.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by Miniryu

Personally, I believe it has to do with psychological factors related to attatchment. Specifically: confidence in a father figure or role model and feelings of inferiority. People who like Microsoft like it because it is on top- the Monster that wins. It is powerful, and it hurts MS lovers to insult the power of their champion/hero. My theory is that these people had either no father figure or a father figure who was weak or unable to protect them. They need something strong and powerful to put their faith in to avoid feeling helpless or weak.

Mac loyalists are the opposite: they love Apple because it is the rebel- in a world where injustice is the rule, Apple represents those of us that are daring enough to travel against the grain. We relate to Apple because we know what it is like to be the underdog, and want to watch the little guy (or less popular guy) win. Kinda like Napolean Dynomite and Pedro Sanchez toppling the Summer Wheatley giant.

ahahahahah. wow you added a lot of meaningless bullsh*t to spout "think different" like a drone there.
How is this for a more reasonable answer: I like to build my own computers. I enjoy it tremendously. I refuse to buy a computer when I can configure something better myself for less (OS independent). Apple doesnt allow me to do that, MS does. You didnt go against the grain, you called 1-800-my-apple. thats like saying you're 'different' then shopping at hot topic like every other goth kid.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by greenamp

The future of the Sidebar in Vista will be a wasteland where all sorts of things you install or download attach annoying bouncy things without your permission that are a PITA to get rid of.

Yeah I can see the usability of it being ruined just about like what happened with the systray... some programs will minimize to the task bar, some to the systray, some to the sidebar. And most of the time there will be no consistency as to what goes where. After 3 months and 15 different P2P apps, they'll all be cluttered with useless icons and my users will be bringing me their home computers for their quarterly format and reinstall.

Well, I hope it doesn't go that route again... Time will tell.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

ahahahahah. wow you added a lot of meaningless bullsh*t to spout "think different" like a drone there.
How is this for a more reasonable answer: I like to build my own computers. I enjoy it tremendously. I refuse to buy a computer when I can configure something better myself for less (OS independent). Apple doesnt allow me to do that, MS does. You didnt go against the grain, you called 1-800-my-apple. thats like saying you're 'different' then shopping at hot topic like every other goth kid.

So to you, the computer is the hardware? Why not run Linux on your machine then, and actually maximize your investment by running a modern operating system, since you seem so value conscious?

[meelk]

no, the computer is the OS too, but OSX simply put, does not exist unless you buy a mac. (of course you can download the warez, blah blah blah endless pain in the ass stuff). I would run only linux, and actually plan to eventually (depending on how good vista is or is not), but I have school related uses for vista for the next several years.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by meelk

ahahahahah. wow you added a lot of meaningless bullsh*t to spout "think different" like a drone there.
How is this for a more reasonable answer: I like to build my own computers. I enjoy it tremendously. I refuse to buy a computer when I can configure something better myself for less (OS independent). Apple doesnt allow me to do that, MS does.

Okay, that doesn't explain why you're posting on a Mac web board.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by meelk

< Vista color scheme personalization image >

yes. its that simple.

They have copied the SGI IRIX color schemes one by one

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by tthmaz

IMHO, Microsoft will still be the market leader in dekstop OS for at least 2~3 years. Linux and Mac OS X are nice OS, but just ain't that user friendly or "dummies friendly" enough yet, although more experienced users and nerds may argue otherwise...

Uh, OS X is tons more "Dummy friendly" than Windows. Linux? You have a point. But not with OS X.

Originally Posted by meelk

yeah...cause I mean, its not like windows has the dominate market share or anything, right

Honda has more of a dominate market share over Porsche. But I surely wouldn't say a Civic is better than a 911.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Okay, that doesn't explain why you're posting on a Mac web board.

I post on the Lounge. Give it up.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by meelk

I post on the Lounge. Give it up.

If your arguments were bulletproof, there would be several people agreeing with you. Several of us have criticized Apple several times. I'm not a blind Apple follower myself. In fact, I split my time between Apple and FreeBSD. Several others here have threatened to switch to Linux, many may already have done so. I might some day too, who knows?

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by meelk

I post on the Lounge. Give it up.

The lounge... on a Mac board. I'm just curious, why would you come here if you have no interest in Apple products, anyway? Surely it's not for the scintillating discussion found in the Lounge (&#41;. There are many other web boards on the Internet that have lounges... why choose this one?

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The lounge... on a Mac board. I'm just curious, why would you come here if you have no interest in Apple products, anyway? Surely it's not for the scintillating discussion found in the Lounge (). There are many other web boards on the Internet that have lounges... why choose this one?

Seems silly to me too. Oh well.

[meelk]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The lounge... on a Mac board. I'm just curious, why would you come here if you have no interest in Apple products, anyway? Surely it's not for the scintillating discussion found in the Lounge (). There are many other web boards on the Internet that have lounges... why choose this one?

Ive already said osx itself is interesting, but not apple products. Perhaps you should actually read my posts. At one point I was considering buying a mac, but the prospect of buying a machine instead of assembling one myself is just overwhelmingly stupid.

I love how these kinds of threads always degenerate into "why are you here" style posts if someone dares to have a different opinion about all things mac.

[meelk]

At one point I was considering buying a mac, but the prospect of buying a machine instead of assembling one myself is just overwhelmingly *stupid*

[meelk]

At one point I was considering buying a mac, but the prospect of buying a machine instead of assembling one myself is just overwhelmingly *stupid*

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

That list is great and all but I can come up with 20 reasons NOT to upgrade.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by meelk

Ive already said osx itself is interesting, but not apple products. Perhaps you should actually read my posts. At one point I was considering buying a mac, but the prospect of buying a machine instead of assembling one myself is just overwhelmingly stupid.

I love how these kinds of threads always degenerate into "why are you here" style posts if someone dares to have a different opinion about all things mac.

He's not saying "omfg geet out!" so quit being so dramatic. He's merely questioning the point of hanging out on a Mac forum when you think Macs are stupid.

As a Windows fan, you'll be pretty hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't disagree with your opinions here. You're being silly to expect otherwise.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by meelk

ahahahahah. wow you added a lot of meaningless bullsh*t to spout "think different" like a drone there.
How is this for a more reasonable answer: I like to build my own computers. I enjoy it tremendously. I refuse to buy a computer when I can configure something better myself for less (OS independent). Apple doesnt allow me to do that, MS does. You didnt go against the grain, you called 1-800-my-apple. thats like saying you're 'different' then shopping at hot topic like every other goth kid.

You don't need to make my own brushes to be a fantastic painter... you don't need to make the camera to be a wonderful photographer.

Sure, you can save money by buying your computer in pieces and assembling... but that's assuming your time is of no value. Apple is constantly testing the OS against the hardware...