[marden]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

She is a very sexist person....why was this school only offered to African girls? Are the African boys not worthy of an education also?

Because she knows girls better, having been one herself. Maybe Snoop or Fiddy or Ludacris can start a boy's school.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Well, he will hurt your feelings.

He called me a gadfly, and this wound is still festering with no apology to help me deal with my trauma. Marden, you should apologize to me, it's the humane and decent thing to do.

I already apologized a few days ago in that other thread, didn't I?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Or perhaps it's just censoring **** regardless of what letter are before or after it.

Yeah, that is what I meant to say... Unless it is only censoring my swearing?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by marden 

I already apologized a few days ago in that other thread, didn't I?

I don't remember you doing that, but are you apologizing now?

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Are the African boys not worthy of an education also?

No, not as worthy.

The return on the investment is much lower. If you are going to spend the money to create a school in a third world country you'd be an idiot to make it a co-ed school.

And its her money and her project. So long as she doesn't violate any laws and the school is entirely privately funded she can do whatever she pleases with the curriculum and in-school policy. I have friends who went to East Coast boarding schools like Choate and Exeter who saw their parents only every month and a half. And trust me they turned out to have much better lives than most people.

There's no mandate for those children to be there and if they are unhappy they can leave and go mine some diamonds or something equally fun.

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by marden 

Sure! And the kids probably love their parents. But, as the song goes, 'what's love got to do with it?'

Ever worked with foster kids? Love has everything to do with it. If you don't have secure attatchments in your relationships, it is extremely difficult to focus on your academics.

Originally Posted by marden 

Keep in mind these aren't infants.
They are able to live away from home without emotional scarring.

Yes, but they are also junior hhigh students- the SECOND most psychologically vulnerable period in a person's life. They are supposed to develop autonomy- something that is extremely difficult to develop with difficult conformist rules. Kids are supposed to learn to spend time away from their parents, not ripped indefinitely from their arms (Even the Spartan kids returned home before too long).

Originally Posted by earthlings 

Yeah. But they still love their kids.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

I'm not the expert - my mother is. I listen to her complain about this crap constantly. Our push towards efficiency and consistency in rules has bled over to education, where it's a bad thing. The idea that all kids can be treated the same and that hardline rules apply to everything is ridiculous. Standardized tests, performance metrics, and all the unbreakable rules are bad for kids. People like to blame the increase in Ritalin on lazy parents or lazy shrinks, but the schools are as much at fault as anyone. Guess what? Some kids think differently (no, not as in Apple). Rather than come up with a way to accommodate that, we're moving in the opposite direction - larger classrooms, more standardization, etc.

Don't tell me (or my mother) that the current set of education 'experts' has a clue. They haven't learned how to best educate children, they've learned how to best move kids through the grade levels while constantly having their budget underfunded. That's not to say that these people couldn't be great educators, it's simply that they have been put in a crap situation and forced to deal with it. We run kids through school the same way we run patents through the patent office.

AMEN. Finally, someone gets it. I just want to encourage to read wallinbl;3332154's exact statement again.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Miniryu 

Ever worked with foster kids? Love has everything to do with it. If you don't have secure attatchments in your relationships, it is extremely difficult to focus on your academics.



Yes, but they are also junior hhigh students- the SECOND most psychologically vulnerable period in a person's life. They are supposed to develop autonomy- something that is extremely difficult to develop with difficult conformist rules. Kids are supposed to learn to spend time away from their parents, not ripped indefinitely from their arms (Even the Spartan kids returned home before too long).



Agreed.



AMEN. Finally, someone gets it. I just want to encourage to read wallinbl;3332154's exact statement again.

Those with agendas to promote are better to find a more suitable vehicle upon which to glom.

Glom: to seize upon or latch onto something

Oprah has done a good thing. She has done it as best as she knows how. She has spared no expense in doing so and expects no financial return from this. It is a good thing, done well, but contrary to some of the current fashions...fashions which MAY be part of the problem.

Make your valid points against the fashions of culture or belief or the systems that creates the problems you decry and not against Oprah who recognizes your points and has taken steps to neutralize those forces, not accentuate them or create worse conditions.

The saying, "no good deed goes unpunished," appears to be so true in this case. Not that she is perfect or deity, but remember that even Jesus was crucified.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't remember you doing that, but are you apologizing now?

Only one apology per alleged offense.

[shifuimam]

<snip>

Not worth the flamewar.

P.S. Marden, I've got a vagina and breasts. That makes me a "she", not a "he".

[besson3c]

shifuimam,

Can I ask you why you do not want to legalize same sex marriage, and whether there are any social programs you approve of? You seem like at least a semi-reasonable person, these are issues I'd like ot have more varied perspective on.

[marden]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

<snip>

Not worth the flamewar.

P.S. Marden, I've got a vagina and breasts. That makes me a "she", not a "he".

Originally Posted by shifuimam

I don't know many Republicans who play the Ebonics card.

So, you want to counter my supposed playing of the Ebonics card by playing the Vagina card?

That is somewhat similar to what Ann Coulter busted the Jersey Girls for, isn't it? Using an unfair advantage to escape criticism and enjoy little or no opposition because of that advantage.

I can understand women not revealing their gender when they post because they want to be treated no differently than anyone else. So the minute they are treated the same as anyone else they play the V card?

Ok. From now on I will treat you the way I would treat a female, not as an equal but as someone who is weaker and less able than the guys here.

That WAS the message you'd have me understand with your 'sexy' revelation, right sweetheart?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by marden 

Ok. From now on I will treat you the way I would treat a female, not as an equal but as someone who is weaker and less able than the guys here.

I had a pretty good idea you were a misogynist, but I guess this confirms it.

Your viewpoints are so extreme and off-the-wall that you really come across as a caricature of all the stereotypes of conservatism at times, ala Stephen Colbert, although maybe a 1920's version of him.

You are a bizarre dude.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I had a pretty good idea you were a misogynist, but I guess this confirms it.

Your viewpoints are so extreme and off-the-wall that you really come across as a caricature of all the stereotypes of conservatism at times, ala Stephen Colbert, although maybe a 1920's version of him.

You are a bizarre dude.

Do you call the unperceived portion of a iceberg bizarre? Is a piece of music you can't play bizarre? Is a foreign language you struggle to learn also bizarre?

Is the homo sapien tendency to destroy what he can't understand bizarre to you?

Then do you find your own life to be bizarre or is it a bazaar?

[besson3c]

sexism and misogynism are undesirable different, not exotic.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

sexism and misogynism are undesirable different, not exotic.

Ok. I have composed a post that addresses your accusations but it is pretty harsh and really would hurt your feelings and I don't want to post it. So please stop calling me names. Ok? You are mistaken in your perceptions and if you'd like to PM me I would be willing to take it up with you then and there.

[besson3c]

Marden,

What could be more clear than this?

Ok. From now on I will treat you the way I would treat a female, not as an equal but as someone who is weaker and less able than the guys here.

This is just intolerable language and actually offensive. I cannot fathom a means in which I've misinterpreted this - you've said that you treat women as weaker and less capable, which obviously reflects what you think of them.

I've kept you off my ignore list because you are entertaining, but now I'm starting to think that perhaps I should deny myself of this pleasure since many of the things you say are so off-putting and depressing... It's sort of like watching obese people watching and getting into an episode of Jerry Springer with Cheetos all over their fingers.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Marden,

What could be more clear than this?

This is just intolerable language and actually offensive. I cannot fathom a means in which I've misinterpreted this - you've said that you treat women as weaker and less capable, which obviously reflects what you think of them.

I've kept you off my ignore list because you are entertaining, but now I'm starting to think that perhaps I should deny myself of this pleasure since many of the things you say are so off-putting and depressing... It's sort of like watching obese people watching and getting into an episode of Jerry Springer with Cheetos all over their fingers.

If she is ASKING for special treatment by declaring her gender at this juncture it's clear that SHE holds the point of view that someone should ease up simply because she's a female. My obvious point in speaking to her in such a way was to point out the nature of her playing the V card.

Why else would she do it at that point and not before?

Look at the way I BLATANTLY responded in a sexist manner. Why? Because she hoped that I would ease up on a little lady. (Also notice my use of italics in the post in question.)

I readily admit to thinking myself superior to most women but not so much as to be offensive to anyone but a bull dagger, and even they don't think it's anything but being mannerly and courtly.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

shifuimam,

Can I ask you why you do not want to legalize same sex marriage, and whether there are any social programs you approve of? You seem like at least a semi-reasonable person, these are issues I'd like ot have more varied perspective on.

The same-sex marriage is a moral/religious issue for me. Marriage was never supposed to a way to get special legal or insurance benefits. It was supposed to be a man and a woman pledging their lifelong partnership together, before God.

Of course, now with divorce, extramarital affairs, and children born out of wedlock, I guess it's not going to make much of a difference whether or not we add same-sex marriage into the list.

Not only that, but if two men or two women really do want to spend the rest of their lives together, they shouldn't really need to have the government's blessing to do so. Most major corporations have partnership benefits that work just like marriage benefits, as far as things like health insurance and 401(k)s are concerned - in which case, those benefits should most certainly be extended to unmarried heterosexual couples as well. I know a few people who have been together for ten or twelve or twenty years but simply do not want to get married because they see it as a governmental institution. There's no reason to punish an unmarried heretosexual couple simply because homosexual marriage is not legal.

Yeah...

Social programs? I think it's one thing to responsibly administer benefits to people who can't get jobs, can't work, can't make money, or can't take care of their families. Welfare was never meant to be for the fatasses who'd rather sit at home watching their satellite TV all day than get a job. It was never meant for girls who get pregnant because they're immature and not old enough to deal with the responsibilities that come with having sex with someone. It was never meant for the woman who has nine children with nine different partners.

Welfare and foodstamps and medicare and government-subsidized housing are good in theory, but have never been good in execution.

There's a new program where I live (Indianapolis, IN) to provide affordable housing to low-income families. I'm friends with the VP of commercial and commercial-residential (apartments, etc.) real estate at a bank here in Indy, and he's financed several of these low-income projects.

How it works is this: you apply for an apartment in a building that is deliberately placed in a good real estate area. Three are in downtown Indianapolis, where two-bedroom bungalows frequently sell for more than $250,000. You apply for an apartment and provide details on your income. Depending on your income, you qualify for a variable rent rate. For instance, at one apartment, a 600 sq.ft. 1BR is yours for $250/mo if you make $13,000/yr or less. After you have been approved for a unit in these housing ventures, you agree to abide by certain rules, just like in a regular apartment. If you can't keep your apartment clean and you continually disturb other residents and trash common areas, you're kick out. Financial and career counselors are available every weekday on-site as volunteers from area charities and shelters and other non-profit organizations.

That's the kind of social program I can see as a viable solution to reducing homelessness in an urban area. When someone gets something for free, they have no stake in it. They have no interest in maintaining it. Think about it - what if someone gave you a brand new iPod, no strings attached. Lets say your sister or brother bought theirs. Which of you do you think will be more careful with your iPod? Sure, you like it and it's great, but it didn't cost you anything. If something happens to it, no harm, no foul. It's even worse with housing. When you know that you can turn your place into a shithole and (a)not pay for repairs, and (b)not worry about how the condition of your home affects its resale value, do you really think you're going to go out of your way to keep it nice? What about if there's also no penalty for turning your place into a complete sty?

Medical care is a whole other story. It's become a sham in the United States. We can't live without medicine - literally. It's a necessity, which means, like gasoline, people can charge whatever the hell they want. It costs $70 every time I want to see my doctor, but I have health insurance.

Even then, health insurance has gone to crap. My deductible is huge. My vision plan is nonexistent. My dental plan is ridiculous, considering how many cavities I get annually. My prescription plan is only worthwhile because it includes a mail-order option that allows me to do a buy-two-get-one-free deal on my prescriptions. And, it's getting worse every year. Doctors charge more, health insurance companies can't afford to provide continued good coverage without sending rates and deductibles through the roof, people can't afford insurance - it's vicious. But providing free health care to those who can afford it (I'm not talking about the single mom who works two jobs to put herself through school and take care of her kid, or the old man with glaucoma and multiple sclerosis, I mean the people who are morbidly obese and have diabetes and asthma because of their obesity and refuse to get off their ass because Uncle Sam pays the bills)...it's not the solution. Nationalizing health care certainly isn't the solution. I would be majorly pissed if the United States went to an all-socialized health care program that keeps me from going to a private doctor if I choose to do so. Once all your doctors are getting paid the same to do the same **** and have no control over their patients or their rates, do you really think they're going to give a ****? It's unlikely.

And, at the end of the day, social programs are, of course, socialism. It doesn't work. Historically, it hasn't worked. Communism is even worse, but there are plenty of radical left-wing liberal Democrats who seem convinced that communism is the only way to make life happy for everyone.

I could go on and on. I'm not very well-educated in political matters, though. I infer my own conclusions from what I see in my world around me, which is less influenced by the media than you might think. My family has been heavily involved in homeless shelters and missions for as long as I can remember. I lived in the white trash hood of the near eastside of Indianapolis for two years, so I've personally met and talked to those lardasses who refuse to get a job and get off welfare. It makes me angry that my tax dollars are going to support their twinkie habit, but it makes me even angrier that people with plenty of potential are either racially profiled as idiots (e.g. the let's-give-you-money-because-you're-black-and-must-be-unable-to-hold-a-steady-job-and-go-to-college-without-federal-aid attitude) or are simply too lazy to move on and get OFF the social programs that got them where they are in the first place.

This was a lot longer than I meant it to be.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by marden 

If she is ASKING for special treatment by declaring her gender at this juncture it's clear that SHE holds the point of view that someone should ease up simply because she's a female. My obvious point in speaking to her in such a way was to point out the nature of her playing the V card.

I don't recall asking for any special treatment. I said that I didn't feel like starting a flamewar, and then I pointed out that I'm not a man.

I'm continually amused that those on computer/nerd/technology/IT forums automatically assume everyone on the forum is male simply because more men than women are interested in computers.

Also: V-card = virginity, not vagina.

Because she hoped that I would ease up on a little lady. (Also notice my use of italics in the post in question.)

Do tell how you inferred this from my two-sentence post.

I've probably got bigger balls than you when it comes down to it. - AND my flatulence will kick the ass of yours any day of the week.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The same-sex marriage is a moral/religious issue for me. Marriage was never supposed to a way to get special legal or insurance benefits. It was supposed to be a man and a woman pledging their lifelong partnership together, before God.

I appreciate that, but what do you say to arguments that condone separation of church and state in this context?

Social programs? I think it's one thing to responsibly administer benefits to people who can't get jobs, can't work, can't make money, or can't take care of their families. Welfare was never meant to be for the fatasses who'd rather sit at home watching their satellite TV all day than get a job. It was never meant for girls who get pregnant because they're immature and not old enough to deal with the responsibilities that come with having sex with someone. It was never meant for the woman who has nine children with nine different partners.

Yeah, welfare is always a sticky issue because it has its uses and its vulnerabilities. I was wondering if you were one of those people that generalize about *all* social programs being bad? My response to this is always "what do you think of Medicaid, Medicare, social security, and public education?", and usually I don't get a direct response. My belief is that we need both a vibrant public and private sector, and that there are too many irrational knee jerk reactions about public services.

There's a new program where I live (Indianapolis, IN) to provide affordable housing to low-income families. I'm friends with the VP of commercial and commercial-residential (apartments, etc.) real estate at a bank here in Indy, and he's financed several of these low-income projects.

You live an hour away from me I'm in Bloomington...

Even then, health insurance has gone to crap. My deductible is huge. My vision plan is nonexistent. My dental plan is ridiculous, considering how many cavities I get annually. My prescription plan is only worthwhile because it includes a mail-order option that allows me to do a buy-two-get-one-free deal on my prescriptions. And, it's getting worse every year. Doctors charge more, health insurance companies can't afford to provide continued good coverage without sending rates and deductibles through the roof, people can't afford insurance - it's vicious. But providing free health care to those who can afford it (I'm not talking about the single mom who works two jobs to put herself through school and take care of her kid, or the old man with glaucoma and multiple sclerosis, I mean the people who are morbidly obese and have diabetes and asthma because of their obesity and refuse to get off their ass because Uncle Sam pays the bills)...it's not the solution. Nationalizing health care certainly isn't the solution. I would be majorly pissed if the United States went to an all-socialized health care program that keeps me from going to a private doctor if I choose to do so. Once all your doctors are getting paid the same to do the same **** and have no control over their patients or their rates, do you really think they're going to give a ****? It's unlikely.

Some provinces in Canada have a hybrid public/private system. I'd be very much for expanding Medicaid/Medicare to cover more basic care in an accessible way. The thing is, by putting too much strain on ERs and hospitals collecting bills from patients without the money to pay them, we are putting a strain on our system and driving up costs for everybody. In many ways, providing more accessible health care targeted towards the poor and middle class is actually an investment to society - something we can all benefit from.

I'm ambivalent as to whether standardizing salaries would lower the quality of health care. There are some excellent hospitals in Canada, and of course some bad ones just like anywhere else. Maybe it boils down to what motivates good doctors to be good doctors? I don't think it is necessarily always making as much money as possible. Doctors in Canada do get paid well, and are still considered among the wealthy class of society. So, I think this varies...

The net result of Canada's system is that average life expectancy is higher, and it costs less to run than it does here. Looking at the health situation from an ego-centric perspective, I can see how one might see disadvantages if they are in the middle/upper-class income bracket (and I'm doing pretty well right now, so I might just about qualify). However, looking at it from a broader picture, I'm not strictly opposed to something like what Canada offers.

My preference would be a hybrid sort of system though, because I do recognize valid arguments on both sides, including yours.

And, at the end of the day, social programs are, of course, socialism. It doesn't work. Historically, it hasn't worked. Communism is even worse, but there are plenty of radical left-wing liberal Democrats who seem convinced that communism is the only way to make life happy for everyone.

Having nothing but social programs is socialism. Having some social programs is not socialism at all.

I could go on and on. I'm not very well-educated in political matters, though. I infer my own conclusions from what I see in my world around me, which is less influenced by the media than you might think. My family has been heavily involved in homeless shelters and missions for as long as I can remember. I lived in the white trash hood of the near eastside of Indianapolis for two years, so I've personally met and talked to those lardasses who refuse to get a job and get off welfare. It makes me angry that my tax dollars are going to support their twinkie habit, but it makes me even angrier that people with plenty of potential are either racially profiled as idiots (e.g. the let's-give-you-money-because-you're-black-and-must-be-unable-to-hold-a-steady-job-and-go-to-college-without-federal-aid attitude) or are simply too lazy to move on and get OFF the social programs that got them where they are in the first place.

I can understand your perspective, there is a lot of trash in Indiana, Indy included

Thanks for your comments, I appreciated reading them!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by marden 

If she is ASKING for special treatment by declaring her gender at this juncture it's clear that SHE holds the point of view that someone should ease up simply because she's a female. My obvious point in speaking to her in such a way was to point out the nature of her playing the V card.

Why else would she do it at that point and not before?

Look at the way I BLATANTLY responded in a sexist manner. Why? Because she hoped that I would ease up on a little lady. (Also notice my use of italics in the post in question.)

I readily admit to thinking myself superior to most women but not so much as to be offensive to anyone but a bull dagger, and even they don't think it's anything but being mannerly and courtly.

She never asked for special treatment!

You are just like Cash, so incredibly emotionally immature and liable to go off half-cocked about just about anything at any given time...

Comon man, get your **** together.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I appreciate that, but what do you say to arguments that condone separation of church and state in this context?

I guess that is a good point. In which case I'm not sure how I feel about it, if I take religion out of the mix.

I have issues with some of the actions and attitudes that are typical of homosexual culture. There seems to be a higher rate of STDs and mutiple partners than with heterosexuals.

My mom is in the Indianapolis Symphonic Choir, and since you're in B-town, maybe you heard about how the director of the choir was caught in Atlanta, GA, giving oral sex to a married man and political/public figure. They were in a public restroom, in the handicap stall, with the door partially open. I don't think I've ever heard of that happening with a hetero couple. I know it happens a lot with gay men - I used to be friends with a gay guy who would tell me, in graphic detail, about going to truck stops just to have anal sex with men in the restrooms.

How would you feel if you took your six-year-old son, brother, nephew, etc. into the men's room and he saw that? It's disgusting.

I suppose that's what bothers me more - the culture, as opposed to the people. I feel the same way about gangsta culture among black people. They're doing themselves no favors by what is more or less supporting incredibly negative stereotypes about black people - that they can't talk properly, are uneducated, don't respect women, don't respect people of other races or backgrounds... the ghetto black culture reinforces the same stereotypes that black people cry out against.

Yeah, welfare is always a sticky issue because it has its uses and its vulnerabilities. I was wondering if you were one of those people that generalize about *all* social programs being bad? My response to this is always "what do you think of Medicaid, Medicare, social security, and public education?", and usually I don't get a direct response. My belief is that we need both a vibrant public and private sector, and that there are too many irrational knee jerk reactions about public services.

I'm all for public services. It's managing them and administering them that, IMO, needs a complete overhaul in the United States. Welfare and its related services has (have? I never know with that kind of phrase) gotten completely out of control.

You live an hour away from me I'm in Bloomington...

Do you go to IU, or do you just like the scenery in the fall?

Some provinces in Canada have a hybrid public/private system
<snip>
Doctors in Canada do get paid well, and are still considered among the wealthy class of society. So, I think this varies...

I've heard about that program in Canada. It sounds like a possible solution, but at the same time, I wonder what kind of hit our taxes would take for it.

Which is another thing. One of my friends once mentioned he'd be in full support of a "human tax" - bascially, any capable adult is taxed. It seems unfair that those who get a free ride in life because of skin color/background/laziness/etc. don't have to contribute anything at all to that free ride. My taxes pay for someone else's free health care, free housing, free food, and free money. I'd rather see them contribute something.

I suppose that brings us full-circle back to the fact that welfare is a mess in the US.

My preference would be a hybrid sort of system though, because I do recognize valid arguments on both sides, including yours.

That's unusual in this day and age. Usually, the attitude is "you have to agree with me or else you're a moron and you must die".

Having nothing but social programs is socialism. Having some social programs is not socialism at all.

True, but the more we train a society to rely on social programs, the more social programs they will demand from the government...if it gets out of hand, the entire nation will crumble under its own selfishness and idiocy.

I can understand your perspective, there is a lot of trash in Indiana, Indy included

Thanks for your comments, I appreciated reading them!

Right back at ya.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I guess that is a good point. In which case I'm not sure how I feel about it, if I take religion out of the mix.

I have issues with some of the actions and attitudes that are typical of homosexual culture. There seems to be a higher rate of STDs and mutiple partners than with heterosexuals.

My mom is in the Indianapolis Symphonic Choir, and since you're in B-town, maybe you heard about how the director of the choir was caught in Atlanta, GA, giving oral sex to a married man and political/public figure. They were in a public restroom, in the handicap stall, with the door partially open. I don't think I've ever heard of that happening with a hetero couple. I know it happens a lot with gay men - I used to be friends with a gay guy who would tell me, in graphic detail, about going to truck stops just to have anal sex with men in the restrooms.

How would you feel if you took your six-year-old son, brother, nephew, etc. into the men's room and he saw that? It's disgusting.

This is very disturbing, there is no doubt about it. On the other hand, so are Catholic priests having sex with boys, female circumcision, and countless heterosexual decisions. There are many gay people that completely reject this culture you speak of. It all comes down to decisions that people make, and I believe that people of all walks of life are perfectly capable of disappointing. We might as well not discriminate.

I'm all for public services. It's managing them and administering them that, IMO, needs a complete overhaul in the United States. Welfare and its related services has (have? I never know with that kind of phrase) gotten completely out of control.

I think either "has" or "have" is fine in this context... So, would it be safe to say that you are not against government social programs or the idea of providing social programs, but against the poor administration of them? If so, I agree with you. However, since we really need many of these programs, I'd rather figure out how to fix these problems rather than cripple them and/or underfund them so that they die an artificial death. I guess good leadership is the answer here?

Do you go to IU, or do you just like the scenery in the fall?

My wife and I both did. Right now I'm working for IU.

I've heard about that program in Canada. It sounds like a possible solution, but at the same time, I wonder what kind of hit our taxes would take for it.

If you pull up the Wikipedia article, you'll see that it is actually cheaper for a country to provide public health services. I guess this makes sense when you consider that the money has to come from somewhere, and forcing people into bankruptcy puts a huge strain on everybody.

Which is another thing. One of my friends once mentioned he'd be in full support of a "human tax" - bascially, any capable adult is taxed. It seems unfair that those who get a free ride in life because of skin color/background/laziness/etc. don't have to contribute anything at all to that free ride. My taxes pay for someone else's free health care, free housing, free food, and free money. I'd rather see them contribute something.

I hear what you're saying. My only concern is that the lower social class have *some* sort of opportunity to achieve some of the things the upper/middle class have, even though the rich will probably always have advantages.

That's unusual in this day and age. Usually, the attitude is "you have to agree with me or else you're a moron and you must die".

I believe that civility is not a weakness or vulnerability, but a display of intellectual (and often emotional) maturity

True, but the more we train a society to rely on social programs, the more social programs they will demand from the government...if it gets out of hand, the entire nation will crumble under its own selfishness and idiocy.

The kinds of social programs I'm most interested in are the kinds that benefit everybody - not just the needy. For instance, education is a big one, transportation, environmental regulations, etc. are all important to me. I think if you really were to press staunch Republicans who blow off social programs and ask them whether these things are important to them, they would come down off their horses. For some reason, these sorts of discussions often evoke strong visceral reactionary responses, and I'm not certain why this is...

[KeriVit]

wow, this thread is intense. i need to read it over coffee and a honey bun.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

She never asked for special treatment!

You are just like Cash, so incredibly emotionally immature and liable to go off half-cocked about just about anything at any given time...

Comon man, get your **** together.

You can't see things clearly when you become emotionally aroused can you?

[marden]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The same-sex marriage is a moral/religious issue for me. Marriage was never supposed to a way to get special legal or insurance benefits. It was supposed to be a man and a woman pledging their lifelong partnership together, before God.

Of course, now with divorce, extramarital affairs, and children born out of wedlock, I guess it's not going to make much of a difference whether or not we add same-sex marriage into the list.

[...]

This was a lot longer than I meant it to be.

This all is just wonderful, shifuimam. Your angst and every feeling of joy and frustration, candidly shared, has obviously found the way to the hearts of more than one poster here. But your diatribe is in the wrong thread, and the wrong forum.

Try the TV writers plot development room.

Off topic, maam.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is very disturbing, there is no doubt about it. On the other hand, so are Catholic priests having sex with boys, female circumcision, and countless heterosexual decisions. There are many gay people that completely reject this culture you speak of. It all comes down to decisio

[...]

hether these things are important to them, they would come down off their horses. For some reason, these sorts of discussions often evoke strong visceral reactionary responses, and I'm not certain why this is...

Off topic.

[marden]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I guess that is a good point. In which case I'm not sure how I feel about it, if I take religion out of the mix.

I have issues with some of the actions and attitudes that are typical of homosexual culture. There seems to be a higher rate of STDs and mutiple partners than with heterosexuals.

My mom is in the Indianapolis Symphonic Choir, and since you're in B-town, maybe you heard about how the director of the choir was caught in Atlanta, G

[...]

Right back at ya.

Why not get a room and tell each other these long winded sensitive and terribly heart wrenching stories over tea and sympathies?

Off topic.

[marden]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I don't recall asking for any special treatment. I said that I didn't feel like starting a flamewar, and then I pointed out that I'm not a man.

I'm continually amused that those on computer/nerd/technology/IT forums automatically assume everyone on the forum is male simply because more men than women are interested in computers.

Also: V-card = virginity, not vagina.

Do tell how you inferred this from my two-sentence post.

I've probably got bigger balls than you when it comes down to it. - AND my flatulence will kick the ass of yours any day of the week.

Honey, you just mind your manners now, or else you will have the dimensions of your balls truly appraised. And if you really are a morphadite your extra parts will become a perverse form of currency around these parts.

How do I infer the truth from your 2 sentence post? Brains.

And what are you going to use to 'kick the ass of mine?" Flatulence and freckled crap stains.

Looks like you have just gained a few new playmates.

Count me in. Heh.

[besson3c]

shifuimam,

Since you don't past here regularly, you may not be hip to the fact that marden lacks basic manners. Feel free to continue the conversation we were having in here if you wish. He shows very little restraint or concern about the topics and focus of other threads, so don't feel compelled to accommodate him if you don't wish to

He's got very little to say anyway, another alternative is just ignoring him.

Please don't leave on account of this.

[marden]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

shifuimam,

Since you don't past here regularly, you may not be hip to the fact that marden lacks basic manners. Feel free to continue the conversation we were having in here if you wish. He shows very little restraint or concern about the topics and focus of other threads, so don't feel compelled to accommodate him if you don't wish to

He's got very little to say anyway, another alternative is just ignoring him.

Please don't leave on account of this.

Oh, so you are encouraging others to break forum rules? That would make you some kind of accessory. And would that be an infraction??? Would it be worth reporting?

Not yet, but keep it up so we can establish a clear pattern of contempt for the rules and instigating rule breaking by others.

[shifuimam]

Marden, how old are you?

I'm not being attacking or accusatory - I'm just wondering.

If you weren't so busy bitching at us for talking about things that people actually care about (instead of egging on this ridiculous one-sided flamewar), you might actually be able to contribute something to the conversation.

Speaking of which, you started throwing insults and attacks on this thread long before anyone else, which means you derailed it before we even showed up.

[marden]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Marden, how old are you? I'm not being attacking or accusatory - I'm just wondering.

My policy is to not divulge personal information.

If you weren't so busy bitching at us for talking about things that people actually care about (instead of egging on this ridiculous one-sided flamewar), you might actually be able to contribute something to the conversation.

Well, that means the thread you start for the purpose of "talking about things that people actually care about" should be very well attended. And if you are willing to observe thread courtesy by not derailing and/or hijacking my threads we will have the basis for an exquisite antagonism and maybe your conversations will inaugurate a new chapter in the history of MacNN. I've long thought this place needed a lounge that would serve as an online equivalent of "The View."

So, who would you say most closely approximates your sensibilities, Rosie, Joy, Barbara? (I don't know the others. Help me out won't you?)

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Speaking of which, you started throwing insults and attacks on this thread long before anyone else, which means you derailed it before we even showed up.

Uh, I believe you announced your arrival to the thread by throwing your figurative 'balls' on the table and challenging my political orientation. I must admit that's a novel way to get my attention. So, now that we have gotten the niceties out of the way you can stop being defensive about who started what first. That kinda reminds me of the way we'd respond as kids when someone farted. Everyone would deny ownership of it. They'd even lie as part of the game.

Good times back then. But Homie don't play that game no more. Just thought I'd inform you.

[shifuimam]

I wish I still got a kick out of flaming. Maybe it was just a Livejournal thing for me.

besson3c, I enjoyed our discussion, but to continue it here would be to continue to provide marden with more fodder for his toddleresque games. I like you, though. You really explain your views well.

[Monique]

When I looked at the pictures of those African girls, it reminded me of aboriginals people being forced to dress up like Europeans and having their cultures stolen under their feet.

Why can't those girls be dressed in African clothing. The only good thing is that they will be able to escape forced marriages and boost their confidence in what they can accomplished.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Monique 

When I looked at the pictures of those African girls, it reminded me of aboriginals people being forced to dress up like Europeans and having their cultures stolen under their feet.

Why can't those girls be dressed in African clothing. The only good thing is that they will be able to escape forced marriages and boost their confidence in what they can accomplished.

Is African tribal/kente/etc. clothing commin in South Africa (I don't know, not trying to be bitchy), or is the apparel pretty Westernized there? I can see it really being an issue if the girls who attend that school typically don't wear Westernized styles, but those uniforms look pretty standard to any boarding school.

[marden]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I wish I still got a kick out of flaming. Maybe it was just a Livejournal thing for me.

besson3c, I enjoyed our discussion, but to continue it here would be to continue to provide marden with more fodder for his toddleresque games. I like you, though. You really explain your views well.

What? No racist ghetto disparagement, testicle size comparisons, impugning a guy's masculinity, challenging someone's political stripe, threatened flatulence attacks (WMD's!) or attempts at cyber-seduction?

Livejournal's "Frank the Goat" would be disappointed, I'd guess.


"Baaaah," says Frank.

Frank the Goat

If Frank is your team mascot, maybe you can get one of your new NoN-Livejournal "friends" to be your cheerleader.



Oh, you've already given me quite a bit of fodder for my "toddleresque games."

[Dakar²]

I sometimes wonder if you high-five yourself after some of your more bizarre posts.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Monique 

When I looked at the pictures of those African girls, it reminded me of aboriginals people being forced to dress up like Europeans and having their cultures stolen under their feet.

Why can't those girls be dressed in African clothing. The only good thing is that they will be able to escape forced marriages and boost their confidence in what they can accomplished.

Monique, there are cities with skyscrapers and traffic jams and neon lights in South Africa, too, you know?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

I sometimes wonder if you high-five yourself after some of your more bizarre posts.

Oh come on, you know there's no joy to be derived from exposing a racist.

[Dakar²]

What did she say that was racist?

[marden]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

What did she say that was racist?

See, just like in the Israel/Palestinian issue it helps to understand the history of a conflict before deciding one side is the bad guy.

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Very ghetto fabulous response. "you'd better get out my face". I don't know many Republicans who play the Ebonics card. BTW, don't worry about hurting my feelings. It doesn't happen much in my world.

Sure, kids are spoiled, but I hardly think that allowing them to see their parents for more than two hours a month is going to turn them into ghetto wannabes with no sense of decency or rules. These aren't college kids. They're not adults. They're children, and it's pretty shitty for a parent who desperately wants their kids to have a good education to have to weigh that against having very minimal contact with their own children.

Unfortunately, BET.com is websensed at my job, so I can't read Oprah's response. Anyone care to post it?

Originally Posted by marden

This person goes, like a heat seeking missile, directly to the issue of race...as if it matters. But it plainly DOES matter to him. And he sees my response as "ghetto" and he sees these girls in South Africa through his hateful racist blinders.

The only place I was fooled was in assuming shifuimam's gender, which she later revealed in the heat of 'battle' as it were. She achieved the literary equivalent of taking off her bra and panties to either wave them in white (flatulent-freckled) flag surrender or to attempt to 'cool' ( ) the exchange by baring her bod and declaring that she has "breasts" and a "vagina."

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by marden 

Oh, so you are encouraging others to break forum rules? That would make you some kind of accessory. And would that be an infraction??? Would it be worth reporting?

Not yet, but keep it up so we can establish a clear pattern of contempt for the rules and instigating rule breaking by others.

Methinks you would have more to worry about, as concerning breaking the rules here, than anyone else. Pot, kettle.

[marden]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

Methinks you would have more to worry about, as concerning breaking the rules here, than anyone else. Pot, kettle.

What, me worry? Why, I've been rehabilitated.

And the only pots some here should worry about are under their beds.

I understand they are called 'chamber pots.' And some of them, I'd think, are full.