Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 3, 2006, 11:49 PM

So me and the bf were driving to muskegon to deliver a computer that was sold on the craigslist, so I decided to fire up the iBook and macstumbler in the car as we were driving, and in the 100 mile drive from owosso to there, We counted 90 unsecured wifi networks ranging from homes to small buisnesses to banks... I mean how stupid can people get, I expected the unsecured networks going through the Michigan State University campus but not like in downtown lansing in some of the bigger office complexes. All along M-43 i could log on to any of the routers change settings and anything i wanted, if i felt the need to do so, which i didnt. But you never know if chester the child molester could hop onto your network and download 100 gigs of kiddie porn, then your the one goin to jail for it because it originated from your internet connection. I mean people need to be secure about this stuff

kick52 · Nov 4, 2006, 03:30 AM

i just setup my wireless card in my G4. there are hardly any computer users around here, let alone any wi-fi networks.. but i'll get it secure anyway

houstonmacbro · Nov 4, 2006, 03:34 AM

mine isn't secure, but it is hidden.

Tuoder · Nov 4, 2006, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by houstonmacbro

mine isn't secure, but it is hidden.

It is very easy to detect hidden networks. WEP is easy to crack too, especially 64-bit.

Ganesha · Nov 4, 2006, 04:41 AM

This assumes there aren't deliberately open ones designed to say sniff for email passwords (unencrypted in many cases if you use a client) or something.

Tuoder · Nov 4, 2006, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ganesha

This assumes there aren't deliberately open ones designed to say sniff for email passwords (unencrypted in many cases if you use a client) or something.

I hadn't thought of that. How delightfully devious.

JoshuaZ · Nov 4, 2006, 11:18 AM

Just in case anyone sues you for something web related... you can always say that your network is open, it could have been anyone.

SirCastor · Nov 4, 2006, 01:53 PM

That's a devious protection...

Maybe it's intentional. I could see the value as a business by providing wireless access nearby to whoever wants it. I'd put content blockers on the other side of the router to protect people from accessing certain things.

Could you Actually go in and change the router conf? Or are you just assuming that you could? They could be protected...

SVass · Nov 4, 2006, 02:05 PM

With regard to your question, let me reverse it. My public library system has open wi-fi networks at every library. So anyone can bring their computer in and access the internet. However, they also provide free computers to use and these have filters to prevent accessing "evil" sites. (The filters are actually there to comply with a law and not to do anything useful.) sam

brokecollegestudentF04 · 02:18 PM

what was really funny was most of the people didnt even change there router passwords and most had file sharing on, i could log on to the routers using the default password to them... Wardriving is a fun experience..

goMac · Nov 4, 2006, 02:18 PM

When I was in a dorm I kept my network open, and I still keep my open today. My girlfriend keeps her APE open at her house too. It's simply convenient, and neither of us have any unprotected private information on our networks.

SpaceMonkey · Nov 4, 2006, 02:25 PM

There are three wireless networks other than my own that I can "see" from my PowerBook when I'm at home. Only one of them is unprotected ("IOGEAR-G"

), although if I had to guess I would say that the other two are probably only WEP-protected.

The biggest annoyance about living in a DC rowhouse is that there are tons of sources for interference. Every so often I'll just completely lose my signal to my Airport Express, even though my roommates can still see it fine. I'm convinced there's someone running a microwave on the other side of my bedroom wall or something.

placebo1969 · Nov 4, 2006, 02:31 PM

How do I know if anyone is on my wireless network? I'm pretty sure I'm secure, though.

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 4, 2006, 02:44 PM

thats the thing you just gotta go into your router settings enable WPA and everything and set a password on the router

turtle777 · Nov 4, 2006, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by houstonmacbro

mine isn't secure, but it is hidden.

I wonder if security by obscurity will ever get out of style...

-t

analogika · Nov 4, 2006, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Just in case anyone sues you for something web related... you can always say that your network is open, it could have been anyone.

Actually, somebody tried that defense here recently, and was convicted.

hadocon · Nov 4, 2006, 06:28 PM

I leave my AP open on purpose. If RIAA ever points their finger @ me for downloading some music there is no way they can ever prove that it was me (as long as I delete the filez) as anyone ould have downloaded the files from my open IP.

turtle777 · Nov 4, 2006, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by hadocon

I leave my AP open on purpose. If RIAA ever points their finger @ me for downloading some music there is no way they can ever prove that it was me (as long as I delete the filez) as anyone ould have downloaded the files from my open IP.

Good luck with that line of argument when it comes to childpron downloaded from your IP

-t

mitchell_pgh · Nov 4, 2006, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Good luck with that line of argument when it comes to childpron downloaded from your IP

-t

I agree... you are responsible for your own IP (or so said the contract I signed)

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 4, 2006, 07:03 PM

thats right... I agree as well, i mean you could have Chester the child molester just sitting out in a parked car on your network gettin his jollys off knowing he aint gonna get caught because its your own IP, and when the police show up with a warrant for your arrest for possession of Child sexually abusive material your like officer I didnt do it, but they have all the data pointing back to your IP. Now in michigan in the upper peninsula a convicted sex offender was dowloading child porn from the newberry correctional facilitys wireless network, everyone thought it was a prison gaurd, turns out the guy acrossed the street from the prison was downloading and manufacturing it, they caught him with 80 gigs of videos involving 4-14 year old girls...

cenutrio · Nov 4, 2006, 07:05 PM

Honestly, I keep my wifi open....downtown Utrecht, NL.

bstone · Nov 4, 2006, 07:23 PM

24 networks sitting on my living room couch. 10 unprotected. If I walked outside it would be more, no doubt.

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 4, 2006, 07:39 PM

Insane isnt it, ive got 9 right now available, all unsecure, mine are all locked down tighter than a ticks behind..

rickey939 · Nov 4, 2006, 08:39 PM

Hidden, password secured, and MAC address authentication is needed.

production_coordinator · Nov 4, 2006, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by rickey939

Hidden, password secured, and MAC address authentication is needed.

I place my wireless in a mesh cage so nobody can connect!

turtle777 · Nov 4, 2006, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by rickey939

Hidden, password secured, and MAC address authentication is needed.

Hidden - useless, why even bother
Password secured - only true protection
MAC address authentication - semi-useful, can be spoofed.

-t

vmarks · Nov 4, 2006, 10:10 PM

Unfortunately, even with the IEEE and IETF standards and wi-fi compliancy testing, some devices do not interoperate well unless security is turned down. This can be for both interface, or technical problems.

Trying to enter the password on a UPnP AV device connected to the 720x480 TV screen with the device trying to downscale 800x600 and enter a WPA password using the number pad of an infrared remote control was foolishness. Hard to enter with the number pad, and impossible to read on the screen. But streaming DVDs, VIDEO_TS folders, audio, and tv shows from a central server to the living room television is nice.

Sure, that's the fault of the UPnP AV device and the people who designed it's interface (Sure, it's got a DVI and component ports, so they're thinking I was going to an HD display where that would be fine- but I wasn't, I'm using regular SD TV for now.) But it's the network security that turns down to accomodate it.

rickey939 · Nov 4, 2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Hidden - useless, why even bother
Password secured - only true protection
MAC address authentication - semi-useful, can be spoofed.

-t

All (3) together though and I'm sleeping peacefully at night...

vmarks · Nov 4, 2006, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Actually, somebody tried that defense here recently, and was convicted.

Actually, that defense is going to get stronger in the future - ISPs are careless and are increasingly unable to give accurate information as to who they assigned a DHCP address to at which time.

The more the cops bust down the doors of innocent little old ladies, schoolteachers, and families, the stronger that defense gets.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061024-8062.html

When an armed porn raid took place *at the wrong physical address* apparently based solely on ISP information derived from an IP address, the results could have been deadly. It appears that a
dynamic IP address was incorrectly mapped to a subscriber.

So, sooner or later, the courts are going to have to stop treating ISPs as adjuncts of law enforcement.

The only question is, will someone have to get killed in a raid on a wrong physical address first?

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 4, 2006, 10:31 PM

Thats insane but then again this is the USA... Cops seem to have all the power, I went out tonight wardriving and found about 50 open wifi networks btwn my house and walmart, and get this walmarts network wasnt secure

turtle777 · Nov 4, 2006, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by vmarks

So, sooner or later, the courts are going to have to stop treating ISPs as adjuncts of law enforcement.

Yes, in a perfect world. Until then, my WLAN is closed.

-t

Railroader · Nov 4, 2006, 10:39 PM

I plug into my wireless.

There's a few accounts open around here. They are all labeled "Linksys".

turtle777 · Nov 4, 2006, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I plug into my wireless.

There's a few accounts open around here. They are all labeled "Linksys".

Yeah, I got them, too. LOL

-t

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 4, 2006, 11:08 PM

LOL same here then i have some that are belkin54g, On my wardriving experience tonight i found one that was wide open but the SSID was do not connect and another one that was open and its SSID was why would you hack me. One thats always in my airport menu is beammeupsnotty
I use macstumbler on a clamshell iBook G3 466mhz, works great
I tell you the names that people come up with

Railroader · Nov 5, 2006, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by brokecollegestudentF04

I tell you the names that people come up with

I've seen some good ones. My two favorites: "Federal Beareau[sic] of Investigations" and "Central Inteligence[sic] Agency" /sarcasm]

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 5, 2006, 12:14 AM

the funny thing is the one that said why would you want to hack me, i logged on changed his router name to Secure your network cuz youve been hacked

Railroader · Nov 5, 2006, 12:17 AM

I usually print out a page of text on their printer on their network telling them to buy more ink.

Visnaut · Nov 5, 2006, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Hidden - useless, why even bother
Password secured - only true protection
MAC address authentication - semi-useful, can be spoofed.

-t

I think the point is that those things are deterrents for casual bandwidth leeching. I have no doubt that my hidden, MAC address authenticated, WPA enabled (w/ randomly generated password) wireless network is hackable if someone was truly determined. Just like any protection scheme.

But it does prevent some perv from leeching off my bandwidth and landing me in hot water. How? Well, why would you go through the time-consuming and labour intensive process of hacking and piggy-backing onto a protected network, when it's so easy to find a fully open wireless network? Which is what the original poster was getting at: that's it takes almost no time and effort to find wide open networks in any populous area.

turtle777 · Nov 5, 2006, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Visnaut

I think the point is that those things are deterrents for casual bandwidth leeching. I have no doubt that my hidden, MAC address authenticated, WPA enabled (w/ randomly generated password) wireless network is hackable if someone was truly determined. Just like any protection scheme.

But it does prevent some perv from leeching off my bandwidth and landing me in hot water. How? Well, why would you go through the time-consuming and labour intensive process of hacking and piggy-backing onto a protected network, when it's so easy to find a fully open wireless network? Which is what the original poster was getting at: that's it takes almost no time and effort to find wide open networks in any populous area.

How does a hidden SSID do any good if you have all other measures in place ?

-t

houstonmacbro · Nov 5, 2006, 03:09 AM

well my network is closed now since my router mysteriously died on me tonight.

Rumor · Nov 5, 2006, 08:24 AM

I turn off my wireless and am hardwired into my router. Kind of hard to hack that.

analogika · Nov 5, 2006, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

How does a hidden SSID do any good if you have all other measures in place ?

Point.

If anybody's got enough criminal energy to hack into a WEP'd or WPA'd network or bypass an MAC filter, then running a wireless stumbler is sort of the prerequisite given.

Tuoder · Nov 5, 2006, 08:38 AM

For some reason, in my neighborhood, there aren't many signals. I get a 2wire intermittently from my room. Upstairs, I got four once, but the ones that had more than one "bar" were all encrypted. On the plus side, my town has free Wifi coverage throughout the downtown area, and my school has Wifi that is included with tuituion. That just leaves my house, which I will wire up one of these days.

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 5, 2006, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Point.

If anybody's got enough criminal energy to hack into a WEP'd or WPA'd network or bypass an MAC filter, then running a wireless stumbler is sort of the prerequisite given.

i ran the stumbler to see how many there was when me and my bf were driving, some of these open networks were in the middle of BFE, the most were in Lansing and into battle creek, MSU is networked wirelessly pretty well

OB1 · Nov 5, 2006, 09:49 AM

Anyone else been forced to downgrade to WEP because of your Nintendo DS? Ah well, still some sort of deterrent I suppose...

Tuoder · Nov 5, 2006, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by OB1

Anyone else been forced to downgrade to WEP because of your Nintendo DS? Ah well, still some sort of deterrent I suppose...

WEP is better than nothing. It stops your typical connect-to-any-open-AP kind of people. I am going to have the same problem, I think. That is, when I actually get around to getting Mario Kart for the DS. I wonder if the Wii will support WPA. I imagine I could jsut google it.

Sherman Homan · Nov 5, 2006, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by hadocon

I leave my AP open on purpose. If RIAA ever points their finger @ me for downloading some music there is no way they can ever prove that it was me (as long as I delete the filez) as anyone ould have downloaded the files from my open IP.

You mean after you have paid a lawyer $5000 and after the newspapers have printed your name and picture because some Chester Child Molester did his thing over your open network?!

OB1 · Nov 5, 2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Tuoder

I wonder if the Wii will support WPA. I imagine I could jsut google it.

I wonder. Anyone know whether Nintendo Wii will support WPA? It seemed odd that Nintendo left it out of the DS...

SirCastor · Nov 5, 2006, 11:17 AM

As i recall, the Wii is going to have an OS which can be updated via (I accidently just type 'wia' ...) net access. I imagine that if it doesn't support WPA out of the box (which would be stupid) that it could be updated to.

brokecollegestudentF04 · Nov 5, 2006, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan

You mean after you have paid a lawyer $5000 and after the newspapers have printed your name and picture because some Chester Child Molester did his thing over your open network?!

Exactly People need to secure there networks before some idiot thats leeching off there network gets the network owner a visit by the DMCA Stormtroopers and the wonderful Child porn task force storm troopers, I for one wouldnt want an armed assault at my house.. Hence why I leave my network closed.. MAC address filtering and everything, and computers i need to work on i connect hardwired.

And after your name is printed in the paper it dont matter if you say you didnt do it, people are always gonna think your a child molester because the media branded that, people believe the media