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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 63)
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subego
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Jun 23, 2016, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is that kind of judge subject to election? Because that only makes things worse.
There are definitely better and worse ways to get impartial judges.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 23, 2016, 01:55 PM
 
Given the methodical way the media poisons the jury well nowadays, with poorly-researched "facts", outright lies, and extreme bias against the police, it's not surprising. There's no way I'd choose a jury trial if I was charged with a capital crime and the wingnuts in the media were attacking me 24/7, rather than simply reporting the news. That would be insane.
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Jun 23, 2016, 02:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's a correlation-causation link being claimed here I think it's fair to greet with at least a modicum of skepticism.

With prosecutors it's easy to show the causal link. I'm not as sure about judges.
Well in this instance the prosecutors alleged that the police gave Freddie Gray a "rough ride". Something that the Baltimore PD is notorious for and has been for decades.

Judge Barry Williams questioned the prosecutor over evidence that the officer, Caesar Goodson, had intentionally given Gray what Baltimoreans call a “rough ride” – driving in such a way as to intentionally injure a prisoner who is handcuffed, shackled and not belted in.

“The state said to the world this was a rough ride. What did you mean by that? What evidence did you show?” Williams asked prosecutors.

Warren Alperstein, a former prosecutor who now works as a defense attorney, said: “It was obvious that Judge Williams was bothered and perhaps even annoyed with the state that it had committed to the rough ride theory but yet didn’t come close to proving that a rough ride was given to Freddie Gray.”

The state’s rough ride expert had previously fallen apart and testified under cross-examination that he saw no evidence that the van either stopped, started or turned erratically or suddenly. Michael Schatzow, the deputy chief state’s attorney, argued the fact that Goodson is seen on film running a stop sign only a half a block before stopping to check on Gray – without informing the dispatch – indicated that he intended to bounce Gray around “like a pinball” but realized “there was a consequence greater than he anticipated”.
Freddie Gray case: judge skeptical of 'rough ride' theory ahead of verdict | TheGuardian.com

WTF do you mean "What evidence did you show?" Freddie Gray got a broken neck in the van he was driving. He failed to secure him in said van against department policy. AND he ignored his pleas for help repeatedly! WTF more evidence do you need? I suppose since the state doesn't have any video evidence of the man driving in a manner that would toss Gray around suddenly means that gremlins might have done it or something.

OAW
     
subego
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Jun 23, 2016, 03:07 PM
 
If I'm reading the article you posted correctly, the judge's hands are kinda tied, no?
     
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Jun 23, 2016, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If I'm reading the article you posted correctly, the judge's hands are kinda tied, no?
Unfortunately I think so. Yet another example that legality and justice are not always the same thing. There's no other plausible explanation for Freddie Gray's injuries. Especially in light of this ...

The last day of the state's case included testimony from a paramedic who said to the officers encircling the collapsed Gray, "What the (expletive) did you guys do?"

The paramedic, Angelique Herbert, a 13-year veteran of Baltimore Fire Department, testified that when she responded to the Western District police station on April 12, 2015, she found two officers attempting to hold up Gray's head as he was kneeling with unblinking eyes.

She quickly determined he wasn't breathing and performed CPR.

Herbert testified that the officers didn't say much and gave various reasons for Gray's condition: One suggested Gray banged his head against the van, another suggested an overdose, the other officers shrugged, she testified.
Freddie Gray case: Prosecution rests in officer's trial - CNN.com

But because the police weren't caught "red-handed" so to speak ... they are all walking.

OAW
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 23, 2016, 04:47 PM
 
I read the judge said you can't expect the police to know about internal injuries; if only the arrestee had said something
     
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Jun 23, 2016, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I read the judge said you can't expect the police to know about internal injuries; if only the arrestee had said something
I know right.

OAW
     
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Jul 6, 2016, 10:44 AM
 
Because two armed white police officers pinning a black male down on the ground were so "fearful for their lives" that they shot him 6 times after one of them claimed he had a gun.



The family of a black man shot multiple times by police during a confrontation at a Louisiana convenience store called for an independent investigation and officials to resign in the wake of cellphone video showing the chilling incident.

Graphic footage circulating online filmed by a witness early Tuesday appears to show Alton Sterling, 37, being shot as two cops pin him to the ground.

His death has sparked protests against police brutality in Baton Rouge, and family members and the local NAACP branch called for Louisiana State Police to take over the review from the Baton Rouge Police Department.

"I'm calling on anybody in this city with a backbone to go arrest those two officers," Mike McClanahan, of the local NAACP, said at a news conference Wednesday.


The Baton Rouge Police Department said uniformed officers responded to a call early Tuesday about a black male in a red shirt who was selling CDs and had reportedly threatened the caller with a gun. (OAW: We'll see if the 911 call actually reflects this or if this is just CYA on the part of the Baton Rouge PD.)

Officers "made contact" with Sterling in the parking lot of the Triple S Food Mart and an altercation ensued, police said in a statement.

"Sterling was shot during the altercation and died at the scene," the statement said.

Two officers have been placed on administration leave "per standard procedure," it added, saying the investigation was ongoing.

Sterling died from multiple gunshot wounds to the chest and back, according to East Baton Rouge Coroner Dr. William Clark. He would not immediately confirm reports that Sterling was shot seven times.

The president of the NAACP, Cornell Brooks, called video of the incident hard to watch — but "far harder" to ignore.

"Get on the ground, get on the ground" is heard before two officers confront a man in a red T-shirt. One officer tackles the man, throwing him on the hood of the car and onto the ground. The second officer climbs on and helps hold him down.

One officer appears to shout a warning: "He's got a gun! Gun!"

While the man is on the ground one officer pulls out his gun. He holds it the back of the man's head or neck, shouting is heard, and then two pops — as the camera quickly cuts away. At least two more pops are heard.


Background voices are heard saying "oh my God" and "They shot him?" and "They killed this boy."

"Oh my God," a woman's voice shrieks.

Sterling's sister, Mignon Chambers, said something "needs to be done" in wake of the shooting.

"There's no reason for you to handle him the way that you did," she said. "It wasn't right."

State Rep. Ted James called the shooting a "murder," saying in a statement it "has made me question what it really means to be land of the free and home of the brave."

He demanded an independent investigation and scrutiny of the police department's body-camera policy. Local media reported that the officers' body cameras had fallen off.

Congressman Cedric Richmond cited "a number of unanswered questions" around the "tragedy" — including the level of force and response of officers after.

"The video footage released today of the shooting of Alton Sterling ... was deeply troubling and has understandably evoked strong emotion and anger in our community," Richmond said in a statement. "I share in this anger and join the community in the pursuit of justice.

He called on the U.S. Department of Justice to conduct an investigation — and for protests to be conducted "with dignity."

Protesters gathered outside the convenience store overnight, chanting "black lives matter" and holding signs saying "Honk for justice" as car horns blared.

#AltonSterling was trending on Twitter amid the mounting outrage.

Martin Luther King's youngest daughter, Bernie King, was among those adding her voice.

"May his name and his brutal last breath shake up and transform systems," she wrote on Twitter.
Alton Sterling Shooting by Baton Rouge Police Sparks Outrage, Protests - NBC News

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jul 6, 2016 at 06:41 PM. )
     
subego
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Jul 6, 2016, 11:39 AM
 
From the descriptions I've heard, it sounds like it was a mistake.

A horrifying, and fatal mistake.

That said, there is close to zero question in my mind it would have been covered up were there not ample witnesses.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 6, 2016, 11:42 AM
 
It's alleged by the store owner the man had a gun in his pocket while intoxicated... When will people learn to not do this shit? If he was carrying, did he have a CWP? (Apparently not, since he was recently released from prison.) Finally, struggling and scuffling with cops (enough to knock off the officer's body cam) is bad, especially in a situation where it's been called in that you're carrying an unsecured, illegally obtained firearm (he was on probation).
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 6, 2016, 11:52 AM
 
Apparently they were wearing body cams but both fell off in the scuffle. Looking forward to that footage being released.
     
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Jul 6, 2016, 12:01 PM
 
^^ Yeah, that phone footage is useless (understandable, though, given the circumstances).
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OAW
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Jul 6, 2016, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's alleged by the store owner the man had a gun in his pocket while intoxicated... When will people learn to not do this shit? If he was carrying, did he have a CWP? (Apparently not, since he was recently released from prison.) Finally, struggling and scuffling with cops (enough to knock off the officer's body cam) is bad, especially in a situation where it's been called in that you're carrying an unsecured, illegally obtained firearm (he was on probation).
That doesn't appear to be exactly what the store owner said.

Sterling was known as the "CD man," a laid-back guy who would sell tunes and DVDs outside the convenience store where he was shot, according to local media.

"Alton was a respected man. He was beloved in the community. He did not deserve the treatment and this excessive force that was exerted on him by the police department," Jordan, his attorney, told CNN.

Now Sterling's family is "grieving and mourning for an unnecessary loss of life," the attorney said.

"Alton was out there selling CDs, trying to make a living. He was doing it with the permission of the store owner, so he wasn't trespassing or anything like that. He wasn't involved in any criminal conduct," Jordan said.

Abdullah Muflahi, the owner of the Triple S Food Mart, told CNN he's known Sterling for six years.

Muflahi let him sell CDs in front of the store. He said Sterling never got into fights.


Muflahi said he saw the officers slam Sterling on a car.

"They told him not to move," he said. "He was asking them what he did wrong."

He said the officers then used a stun gun on Sterling at least once before shooting.

Both got on top of him, and one ordered him not to move.

The one closest to Sterling's legs yelled "gun," and the shots followed.

After the shooting, Muflahi said an officer reached into Sterling's pocket and pulled out a gun.

When it was over, Muflahi said he heard the officers talking on the scene, saying they had been called there due to a complaint that Sterling had pulled a gun on someone.

But Muflahi said he never saw a confrontation between Sterling and anyone. And he wasn't aware of any incident about which someone would have called.

"Just five minutes before," Muflahi said, "he walked into the store getting something to drink, joking around, (and we were) calling each other names."
Alton Sterling shooting: Video of deadly encounter with officers sparks outrage - CNN.com

As for him carrying a weapon I have a few observations ...

1. There are lots of people who live in dangerous neighborhoods. And for one reason or another they don't always have a CWB. There are several reports going around that Mr. Sterling recently started carrying after having been mugged. In any event he clearly didn't have a weapon in his hand during the confrontation with the police.

2. Speaking of this alleged weapon I've yet to see a report from a major news source that one was actually recovered by the police. Not on NBC, CNN, Fox News, etc. The only thing mentioned about a weapon is the statement from the store owner. From the NBC News article ... "Police officials declined to say whether a gun was found on Sterling."

3. As for "scuffling" with the cops that's an extremely generous interpretation of what happened. What I clearly saw was two officers who had him pinned down. And of of them says "You f*cking move, I swear to God!" right before 2 shots were fired ... followed by a pause ... followed by 4 more shots. The man was shot in the back. There's simply no excuse.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jul 6, 2016 at 05:32 PM. )
     
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Jul 6, 2016, 05:47 PM
 
New video evidence from the convenience store owner himself ....

The owner of the convenience store where Alton Sterling was killed said Wednesday he believes the man was "murdered" by the two white Louisiana cops who shot him.

The U.S. Justice Department is now leading a civil rights investigation into the death of Sterling, 37, who was shot multiple times early Tuesday outside Abdullah Muflahi's Triple S Food Mart in Baton Rouge, the state capital.

Graphic cellphone videos — including one filmed by Muflahi himself (above) — appear to show Sterling being tackled, shot multiple times and pinned him to the ground.

Authorities claim Sterling was armed, but Muflahi told NBC News on Wednesday that as far as he knew, Sterling never brandished a gun or threatened the officers in any way.

"They shot him three times already, then they shot him another three times," Muflahi said.


"I believe he was murdered," Muflahi said.

Muflahi said he had no idea why police arrived at his store to arrest Sterling, who sold CDs outside — and neither did Sterling, he said.

"He just wanted to know what was going on. Why are they coming to arrest him?" Muflahi said. "He was asking them: 'What'd I do wrong? What's going on? What'd I do wrong? Why you messing with me?'"


Baton Rouge police said a caller to 911 claimed that Sterling was acting threatening with a gun. But Muflahi said he'd known Sterling for five or six years and had never seen him get into a fight or even an argument.

"He was a nice guy, always smiling, always happy, always joking around with people," Muflahi said.

"He sits right outside the door. If there was anything that had happened, I think I would've heard it. I didn't hear nothing," Muflahi said.

Muflahi said he did see the officers remove a weapon from Sterling's pocket after they shot him. As a convicted felon, Sterling wouldn't have been permitted to have a gun, but Muflahi and others who knew him said he kept one to protect himself from robbers.

Muflahi stressed that even the cops indicated that the gun was still in Sterling's pocket after he'd been shot, indicating that he'd never had a chance to pull it during the confrontation.


"I don't think there was any way that he would've reached for it," Muflahi said. "And if he would've reached for it, his hand would've still been in his pocket, or the gun would've been in his hand after they had killed him."

Muflahi said he was shocked — "it was like a nightmare."

"Seeing your own friend getting shot in front of you, it's horrifying. It's scary," he said.

"We just want the truth to come out," he said. "We want justice. That's it."
Baton Rouge Store Owner Says His Video Shows Cops 'Murdered' Alton Sterling - NBC News

Look at the video. They have him pinned down. You can see his left and his right hand held up in submission at the 8 - 9 second mark.

8 second mark



9 second mark



NOT ONCE does he grab either of the officers. The most he moved at the very beginning was to lift his head off the ground. He was putting his hands up! This was straight up murder. Plain and simple.

OAW

PS: We see one of the officers pull something out of Mr. Sterling's front right pocket. Something very small. I certainly can't say it was a weapon. Might have easily been a cell phone. That might have something to do with why the cops haven't officially confirmed that a weapon was recovered at the scene.
( Last edited by OAW; Jul 6, 2016 at 06:23 PM. )
     
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Jul 6, 2016, 06:43 PM
 
Very clear and extended footage from the second video.

OAW

PS: Is that a gun pulled out of his pocket? Or car keys?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 6, 2016, 11:32 PM
 
That's a .25 semi-auto pistol, or one of those pistol lighters, I have both and they're that size and shape. Only really useful if you're going to shoot someone in the face, or for lighting a cig.
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Jul 7, 2016, 12:25 AM
 
Perhaps. I have a .25 myself. It's a small firearm but it is bigger than what I saw the cop pull out of his pocket. But let's say for the sake of discussion that it was a weapon. Clearly he didn't have it in his hand when he was shot 6 times. And he was pinned down by two grown ass men ... both of whom had weapons drawn ... and he was NOT moving immediately prior to being shot. The cop who said "You f*cking move, I swear to God!" made good on his threat and apparently pumped six shots into him. And as is typical in cases like this it doesn't appear that they even bothered to call for an ambulance. Because dead men don't get to tell their side of the story in court.

Remember this that I posted earlier ...

Originally Posted by OAW
From the NBC News article ... "Police officials declined to say whether a gun was found on Sterling."
Then factor in this. The cops claim they received an "anonymous" 911 call claiming he had a gun. But nearly 48 hours later the cops haven't released audio of a 911 CALL ... they've only released audio of a DISPATCH CALL. Listen and see the transcript of what the dispatcher ... not a 911 caller ... said for yourself here.

Police release 911 calls that led to Alton Sterling’s death | WGNO

Needless to say I'm calling BS based upon what I've seen so far!

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 7, 2016, 01:51 AM
 
A "face-shooter":



They can be smaller than you think.

Anyway, repeat felon with a long history of criminal activity allegedly threatens someone with a gun (that's why the police were called in the first place), the police arrive and he's confrontational (and they're assuming he's armed, and he has a history of carrying when he shouldn't). He won't comply with them, he's tasered, they all scuffle, they can't keep his hands still and they're afraid he's going to reach into his pocket for a gun. All of that is a recipe for disaster. If he hadn't been stupid, and a serial criminal, he'd be alive right now. This isn't rocket surgery.
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Jul 7, 2016, 03:58 AM
 
Whether you conclude that any or all of these police shootings are justified or not, a fact you'll love to hear me say is that all these lives should be on the tally in the arguments over gun control. If there weren't so many guns everywhere your cops wouldn't have to shoot people for showing ID or answering their cell phones. Rather, they wouldn't be able to so easily get away with shooting people for doing that kind of thing.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 7, 2016, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
A "face-shooter":



They can be smaller than you think.
That looks like the one I have. But fair enough.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Anyway, repeat felon with a long history of criminal activity allegedly threatens someone with a gun (that's why the police were called in the first place), the police arrive and he's confrontational (and they're assuming he's armed, and he has a history of carrying when he shouldn't). He won't comply with them, he's tasered, they all scuffle, they can't keep his hands still and they're afraid he's going to reach into his pocket for a gun. All of that is a recipe for disaster. If he hadn't been stupid, and a serial criminal, he'd be alive right now. This isn't rocket surgery.
Well let's examine all this ...

1. "Allegedly threatens someone with a gun" - Again. We are 3 days out and the Baton Rouge PD have still not released any such 911 call. All they've released is a dispatch call. Just this morning at 9:15 AM ET CNN reported this ...

The 911 call that brought police to a Baton Rouge convenience store Tuesday came from a homeless man, according to a senior law enforcement official. The homeless man had approached Alton Sterling, repeatedly asking him for money, the official said. Sterling showed his gun and the homeless man called police, according to the official. Sterling was later shot by police at the scene.
But STILL no audio from this supposed 911 call. How would the Baton Rouge PD know that the "anonymous" 911 caller was "homeless"? Surely you can see how a dispatch call without the 911 call can be part of a coverup after the fact to "justify" the cop's aggressive behavior?

2. "he's confrontational", "he won't comply with them" - And where is there ANY evidence of this that you can point to? Because what I see is this ...

One of the crucial next steps will be to determine what happened before the confrontation ensued.

Authorities said that the officers were responding to a 911 report of a man with a gun. A source close to the investigation told CNN the witness who called 911 said Sterling was "brandishing a gun."

Abdullah Muflahi, the owner of the Triple S Food Mart, told CNN he wasn't aware of any incident Tuesday that would have spurred a 911 call.

But he's sure the shooting was caught on his store's surveillance cameras, though he hasn't seen it. Police took the video later Tuesday, he told CNN.

There also is police body camera footage of the shooting -- even though the cameras were dislodged -- Baton Rouge police Lt. Johnny Dunham told reporters. The cameras continued to record, he added.

Investigators said they'll review multiple videos of the shooting, and they're canvassing for witnesses.

Authorities haven't said what those police videos or other surveillance footage of the scene show, including the lead-up to what the public has already seen or the possible weapon-brandishing incident.

The source involved in the investigation told CNN that the other videos are not nearly as clear as the bystander videos.
... where even the Baton Rouge PD has NOT claimed any sort of "confrontational" or "non-compliant" behavior on the part of Mr. Sterling.

We also have the store owner saying this ...

Muflahi said he had no idea why police arrived at his store to arrest Sterling, who sold CDs outside — and neither did Sterling, he said.

"He just wanted to know what was going on. Why are they coming to arrest him?" Muflahi said. "He was asking them: 'What'd I do wrong? What's going on? What'd I do wrong? Why you messing with me?'"
And this ...

Abdullah Muflahi, the shop’s owner, told various local media outlets that police shot Sterling with a stun gun — as the video suggested — but that the man remained standing. Police then tackled him and pinned him down. One yelled “gun,” then one fired four to six shots into Sterling.

Police “were really aggressive with him from the start,” Muflahi told the Advocate, adding that he saw police retrieve a gun from Sterling’s pocket after the shooting. “His hand was nowhere [near] his pocket” when he was shot.

After the shooting, Muflahi said, the officers began cursing and both seemed to be “freaking out.”

Finally, the store owner said he heard one of the officers say, “Just leave him.”
Moreover, this is corroborated by the video evidence. We can see with our own eyes that Sterling was just standing there when the one cop tased him and the other cop tackled him. Unless, of course, in your estimation Standing While Black (SWB) and asking a police officer "What did I do?" constitutes being "confrontational"? Because based upon the available evidence thus far it was the police who were the ones being "confrontational" here.

3. "If he hadn't been stupid, and a serial criminal, he'd be alive right now. This isn't rocket surgery." - Spoken with such confidence. Yet we have this live streamed on Facebook in the immediate aftermath of yet another black male being killed over some BS.

:::: warning - very graphic footage ::::::

https://www.facebook.com/10000761124...0073837922975/

Mere days after ​Baton Rouge police shot and killed Alton Sterling, who was black, at point-blank range, a Falcon Heights, Minnesota police officer shot and killed Philando Castile during a traffic stop. Castile was also black.

Lavish Reynolds, Castile's girlfriend who was in the car along with her four-year-old daughter in the backseat, streamed the aftermath of the shooting on Facebook Live as they waited for emergency care.

According to Reynold's eerily calm narration, Castile had informed the officer that he was carrying a firearm (according to his uncle, he had a concealed carry permit) when the officer asked him for his license and registration. According to Reynolds, while Castile was reaching to produce the license as requested, the officer shot him four times.
Woman Streams Aftermath Of Boyfriend's Fatal Shooting By Police At Traffic Stop In Falcon Heights, MN - Digg

Cop pulls them over for a busted tail light. Which is typically BS in and of itself. The young lady is driving but the cop asks Mr. Castile for his driver's license even though he's in the passenger seat. He tells the cop that he has a concealed carry permit and is armed. Which is pretty difficult to obtain if one is a "serial criminal". Then slowly reaches for his driver's license per the "officer's" instructions. And then this trigger-happy MF decides to shoot him 4 times. Killing him. In front of his girlfriend and a 4 year old girl in the backseat. No what isn't "rocket surgery" is that it doesn't f*cking matter if you have a criminal history or are a law-abiding average joe. If you are black and you encounter the wrong cop you are way more likely to end up dead. Point. Blank. Period!

OAW
     
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Jul 7, 2016, 02:58 PM
 
The girlfriend of Philando Castile issued a follow-up statement to reporters. Some key excerpts ....



Originally Posted by Diamond Reynolds
We got pulled over for what allegedly was supposed to be a broken tail light. He let us know that we had a broken tail light. He asked us were we aware of it. We said no. As we said no he tells us to put our hands in the air. We have our hands in the air. At the time as our hands our in the air he asks us for our license and registration. My boyfriend carries all of his information in a thick wallet in his right side back pocket. As he's reaching for his back pocket wallet he lets the officer know "Officer I have a firearm on me." I begin to yell "But he's licensed to carry!" After that he began to take off shots. Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom! "Don't move! Don't move!" But how can you not move when you're asking for license and registration?
Originally Posted by Diamond Reynolds
He was never a bad man. He never did anything to hurt anyone. He was the quietest most laid-back person you would ever meet. He was loving. So for the police to take him away? Nothing within his body language said "intimidation". Nothing within his body said "shoot me!". Nothing within his body language said "kill me I want to be dead." He did not do nothing but what the police officer asked of us. Which was to put your hands in the air and get your license and registration.
Originally Posted by Diamond Reynolds
They left him sitting in the car after they shot him. Nobody checked his pulse. Nothing! The police officer that was on my side walked away to call for backup. And the police officer that shot him was still standing there .... with his gun still drawn .... after he was shot.
Originally Posted by Diamond Reynolds
A good man. A 35 year old man worked for St. Paul Public School. Never been finger-printed. Never been handcuffed. He has been taken away from his community. No one deserves ... no one deserves this.
See it on video here ....

https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/10155006635721509/


OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jul 7, 2016 at 04:41 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Jul 7, 2016, 11:26 PM
 
One DART officer killed, and between three and six officers shot in during Dallas protests.
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Chongo
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Jul 7, 2016, 11:36 PM
 
One DART, two Dallas PD are dead, and seven other officers shot by snipers according to KDFW TV
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OAW
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Jul 7, 2016, 11:40 PM
 
^^^

The latest I heard was 3 cops dead, 2 in surgery, and 3 in critical condition. Total of 10 shot. "2 snipers from an elevated position" opened fire after the peaceful protest had ended. Suspects still at large.

3 Police Officers Shot and Killed by Snipers in Downtown Dallas After Peaceful Protest | .Mic.com

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 02:20 AM
 
Well, this seems guaranteed to improve relations.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 8, 2016, 04:43 AM
 
Show of hands then, who here thinks this epidemic of out-of-control murderous racist cops constitutes the sort of government tyranny you have guns for?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jul 8, 2016, 06:37 AM
 
The sort of tyranny one needs guns for is the suspension of democracy type.
     
Paco500
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Jul 8, 2016, 08:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The sort of tyranny one needs guns for is the suspension of democracy type.
Interesting point of view, and relates to an interview I heard on Radio 4 yesterday. They were interviewing a western journalist who has been in Iraq since before the war. The question: was the war justified as it removed a brutal dictator. The journalist was struggling with the question- did 'freedom' trump security? She was coming to the conclusion that to live with security under a dictator was a better life than living in Iraq now- not knowing if your kids would make it home from school.

You seem to be of a different frame of mind- 'freedom' is more precious than security. In other words, use of your guns against authority is only justified if they take away your democracy- killing you and your family/friends without justification is not enough.

I'm not sure what the right answer is.

I'm sure I don't believe the killings is Dallas were justified no matter motivation. But I'm a wack-job lefty collectivist regressive that believes what ever the lame-stream media tells me, so what do I know?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The sort of tyranny one needs guns for is the suspension of democracy type.
Is that implied or spelled out somewhere?
     
OAW
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:17 AM
 
I must say I had the same thought last night. There's a spontaneous peaceful protest and something this organized and coordinated jumps off? In any event, this was a horrific attack. And absolutely detestable.

-- Retired FBI Special Agent Steve Moore said an attack of that magnitude required advance work.

-- "This was an attack planned long before — waiting for an opportunity to go," Moore said. "I think there was so much logistically, ammunition-wise. They may not have planned the location, they may not have planned the vantage point. But they had prepared for an attack before last night's shooting is my guess."
Dallas sniper attack: 5 officers killed during protests against police - CNN.com

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OAW
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The sort of tyranny one needs guns for is the suspension of democracy type.
But we also have a 2nd Amendment right to arms for self-defense purposes as well. According to the SCOTUS. And we see how that worked out for Alton Sterling and Philando Castile.

Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, and Why Blacks Are the Second Amendment's Second-Class Citizens - The Atlantic

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subego
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Interesting point of view, and relates to an interview I heard on Radio 4 yesterday. They were interviewing a western journalist who has been in Iraq since before the war. The question: was the war justified as it removed a brutal dictator. The journalist was struggling with the question- did 'freedom' trump security? She was coming to the conclusion that to live with security under a dictator was a better life than living in Iraq now- not knowing if your kids would make it home from school.

You seem to be of a different frame of mind- 'freedom' is more precious than security. In other words, use of your guns against authority is only justified if they take away your democracy- killing you and your family/friends without justification is not enough.

I'm not sure what the right answer is.

I'm sure I don't believe the killings is Dallas were justified no matter motivation. But I'm a wack-job lefty collectivist regressive that believes what ever the lame-stream media tells me, so what do I know?
I think you can call the situation we have with the police a lot of really derogatory terms, but calling it tyranny is a stretch.

The cause isn't centralized. There are about a half-dozen disparate issues interacting with each other to give us the shit sandwich on our plate.

Drug prohibition, incentive for cops to protect themselves, incentive for prosecutors to protect cops, paltry police budgets, horrible police-community relations, and poverty... just to name a few.

Let's call a spade a spade, here. The armed resistance Second Amendment defenders speak of would be terrorism. Terrorism isn't justified in a functioning democracy.

At the risk of playing "no true Scotsman", Iraq doesn't seem like it has a functioning democracy. Certainly compared to the U.S.
     
subego
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is that implied or spelled out somewhere?
This is my personal take.

I could be off, but I feel there's rough consensus the minimum requirement for collective armed resistance would be the enacting of marshal law.

IOW, a direct, explicit, and clear suspension of the democratic process.
     
subego
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
But we also have a 2nd Amendment right to arms for self-defense purposes as well. According to the SCOTUS. And we see how that worked out for Alton Sterling and Philando Castile.

Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, and Why Blacks Are the Second Amendment's Second-Class Citizens - The Atlantic

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I've said before there's a total disconnect between how people are expected to react to cops and reality.

Look at a cop funny and they have the right to kill you because you put them in fear for their life. Protect your face while a cop beats it like a rug and you've committed a crime.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:50 AM
 
I read there were at least four snipers? That's an absurd level of coordination.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is my personal take.

I could be off, but I feel there's rough consensus the minimum requirement for collective armed resistance would be the enacting of marshal law.

IOW, a direct, explicit, and clear suspension of the democratic process.
Your bar seems incredibly high.
     
subego
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Jul 8, 2016, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Your bar seems incredibly high.
You want it lower?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You want it lower?
I'm not sure, but it makes the 'cost' of the 2nd amendment that much more absurd given what it takes to activate its purpose.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think you can call the situation we have with the police a lot of really derogatory terms, but calling it tyranny is a stretch.

The cause isn't centralized. There are about a half-dozen disparate issues interacting with each other to give us the shit sandwich on our plate.

Drug prohibition, incentive for cops to protect themselves, incentive for prosecutors to protect cops, paltry police budgets, horrible police-community relations, and poverty... just to name a few.

Let's call a spade a spade, here. The armed resistance Second Amendment defenders speak of would be terrorism. Terrorism isn't justified in a functioning democracy.

At the risk of playing "no true Scotsman", Iraq doesn't seem like it has a functioning democracy. Certainly compared to the U.S.
All of that.
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BadKosh
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:10 AM
 
And its events like Dallas that causes the police to toughen their presence and fearing for their lives. Cause-Effect. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.
     
subego
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not sure, but it makes the 'cost' of the 2nd amendment that much more absurd given what it takes to activate its purpose.
One of the purposes is to disincentivize marshal law happening in the first place.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:18 AM
 
Oh, and piling the Sterling and Castille situations together is absolute bullshit. Saying they're in any way similar is a deliberate work of obfuscation. One was a career criminal who liked to go around armed, had a violent temper, and refused to comply with the directives of his probation (frankly, he should have been sent back to the slammer before this situation ever occurred), while the other was, by all accounts, a respected law-abiding citizen who was legally exercising his protected right to carry. They couldn't be more dissimilar, but that won't stop agenda-driven pot-stirrers from digging out the (impossibly worn out) broad brush they use to paint their distorted narrative.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Oh, and piling the Sterling and Castille situations together is absolute bullshit. Saying they're in any way similar is a deliberate work of obfuscation. One was a career criminal who liked to go around armed, had a violent temper, and refused to comply with the directives of his probation (frankly, he should have been sent back to the slammer before this situation ever occurred), while the other was, by all accounts, a respected law-abiding citizen who was legally exercising his protected right to carry. They couldn't be more dissimilar, but that won't stop agenda-driven pot-stirrers from digging out the (impossibly worn out) broad brush they use to paint their distorted narrative.
This post is 100% accurate if you pretend race isn't a thing.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
And its events like Dallas that causes the police to toughen their presence and fearing for their lives. Cause-Effect. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.
We're quickly devolving to the point where no one will want to go to "Peach Trees" to uphold the law, because the risk will simply be too high.
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el chupacabra
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:35 AM
 
… .
( Last edited by el chupacabra; Jan 5, 2024 at 01:54 AM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 8, 2016, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This post is 100% accurate if you pretend race isn't a thing.
Okay, I guess we can pretend that whites aren't killed by police at a higher rate in these instances and those shootings simply aren't publicized to the same degree, due to a misguided narrative pushed by the media that blacks are victims of systemic racism.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Okay, I guess we can pretend that whites aren't killed by police at a higher rate in these instances and those shootings simply aren't publicized to the same degree, due to a misguided narrative pushed by the media that blacks are victims of systemic racism.
What's the relevant stat your citing here?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2016, 01:08 PM
 
     
BadKosh
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Jul 8, 2016, 01:32 PM
 
Contrast Dallas and Chicago and the number of shooting deaths, or even just shootings in the last week.
     
OAW
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Jul 8, 2016, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I've said before there's a total disconnect between how people are expected to react to cops and reality.

Look at a cop funny and they have the right to kill you because you put them in fear for their life. Protect your face while a cop beats it like a rug and you've committed a crime.
Yep. They call it "resisting arrest". Or being "non-compliant".

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