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The Official MacNN COVID-19 Thread (Page 8)
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subego
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Apr 23, 2020, 06:47 PM
 
My local liquor store just put up plexiglass panels around the register.
     
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Apr 23, 2020, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
so much for states can decide.

Didn't Trump just throw Kemp (georgia gov) under the bus for opening early, claiming he thought it was too soon, after telling everyone to open?!? This admin is just FUBAR.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...eopen-n1190061
Trump has done this to how many people now?
If you hitch your wagon to him, then you’re a moron and I don’t feel sorry for you if he throws you under the bus when convenient for Trump at that moment. Even within a press conference Trump says one thing and the opposite, and will try to intimidate journalists by accusing them of propagating fake news and being biased if they point that out.
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Waragainstsleep
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Apr 23, 2020, 09:23 PM
 
About the only person he hasn't thrown under a bus yet is DeVos. I'm guessing because she's richer than him.

Did anyone see the Mayor of Las Vegas sounding like a lunatic?
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Thorzdad  (op)
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Apr 23, 2020, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
About the only person he hasn't thrown under a bus yet is DeVos. I'm guessing because she's richer than him.

Did anyone see the Mayor of Las Vegas sounding like a lunatic?
I believe the DeVos family recently sponsored one of those “grass-roots” open-x-state rallies in Michigan. So, she’s an actual financial supporter. He’s not gonna throw a big bag of cash under the bus.

As for the Vegas mayor, yeah, she was insane. How can anyone be so deeply invested in the current conservative zeitgeist as to be unaware that offering-up your citizens as a pandemic control group might not be a good idea? Did you see the hard, public, smackdown Nevada’s governor laid on her? He wasn’t having any of it.
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Apr 24, 2020, 01:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Did anyone see the Mayor of Las Vegas sounding like a lunatic?
I try not to listen to such garbage, it really makes me lose my faith in humanity.
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Doc HM
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Apr 24, 2020, 03:26 AM
 
Go on, admit it, you thought Trump's "FREE THE STATES" tweets were going to be the most moronic thing he said all week didn't you.

Well turns out it's not over till it's over...

"If only there was someway people could inject of drink disinfectant, because that can kill viruses"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-disinfectant

Don't forget it is still only Friday...
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subego
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Apr 24, 2020, 04:28 AM
 
My guess is, surprisingly, that’s less of a gaffe than it appears.

Pumping out your blood, whacking the virus, and then pumping it back in can succeed as a treatment for this. I assume there’s some risk factor and/or logistical reason it isn’t seeing more widespread use, but it’s been done, and it’s worked.
     
Doc HM
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Apr 24, 2020, 06:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My guess is, surprisingly, that’s less of a gaffe than it appears.

Pumping out your blood, whacking the virus, and then pumping it back in can succeed as a treatment for this. I assume there’s some risk factor and/or logistical reason it isn’t seeing more widespread use, but it’s been done, and it’s worked.
Medical Science would seem less enthusiastic than you. Also Trump was more taken with injecting or swallowing. Simpler for the base to understand?

Now I'm hearing Dr Nick on loop... "Hi Everybody, lets whack that virus"
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subego
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Apr 24, 2020, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Medical Science would seem less enthusiastic than you.
Enthusiasm?

I’m not particularly enthusiastic about it. If there was reason to be, that’s what we would be doing. We’re not, so I’m not.

All I’m saying is he didn’t pull this entirely out of thin air. Or, more precisely, he pulled this out of less thin air than usual.
     
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Apr 24, 2020, 10:28 AM
 
If he'd said transfusion, that would be different. I've heard talk of dialysis for the virus also. Not sure how effective it would be or if it was another wishful thinking case.

The point is he didn't say dialysis or any other medical term. And he has supporters who take him literally, those who hoarded quinochlorine(sp), would no doubt drink bleach if he said it was effective. Lysol had to go on social media and beg people not to inject or drink their products.

He "wonders" about things out loud and it's like he just invented medicine. Even Dr. B looked perturbed at his statement, like she might want to say something even... but she did not. Which makes me wonder if she sold her soul, or is being held hostage. Blink, Dr. B. Blink.
     
subego
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Apr 24, 2020, 10:36 AM
 
I interpreted his “getting the light inside the body” as his addle-brained interpretation of what I’m talking about.
     
turtle777
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Apr 24, 2020, 11:41 AM
 
The difference should be obvious:

You use Lysol or Chlorox to kill something that’s barely “alive” (I.e. virus) on a dead surface.

This obviously can’t work the same way to kill something barely alive on a surface that’s very much alive.

-t
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Apr 24, 2020, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I interpreted his “getting the light inside the body” as his addle-brained interpretation of what I’m talking about.
It's like his brain is tying itself into knots, trying everything it can to specifically not consider actual science or expert recommendations. Trump is pretty much what you get after decades-long attacks on, and denigration of, science, professionalism, career knowledge, etc. The pyrrhic victory of "common sense" over factual knowledge.
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turtle777
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Apr 24, 2020, 12:27 PM
 
Well, one has to be skeptical about some “science” and and professionals.

Remember how they told us Covid-19 wouldn’t impact us in the US.
And how we were better prepared.
And how face masks didn’t work.
And how it can’t spread asymptomatically.

The science / medical community has been very wrong for many months.
They are doing it to themselves.

-t
     
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Apr 24, 2020, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, one has to be skeptical about some “science” and and professionals.

Remember how they told us Covid-19 wouldn’t impact us in the US.
And how we were better prepared.
And how face masks didn’t work.
And how it can’t spread asymptomatically.

The science / medical community has been very wrong for many months.
They are doing it to themselves.

-t
Have you seen those messages coming from a single, reputable source? Because absolutely the news has been saying "Medical experts are saying..." all of those things, which would explain why people who spend too much time watching the news would end up skeptical of experts.

But that's different than listening to messaging directly from a trusted source.
     
turtle777
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Apr 24, 2020, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Have you seen those messages coming from a single, reputable source? Because absolutely the news has been saying "Medical experts are saying..." all of those things, which would explain why people who spend too much time watching the news would end up skeptical of experts.

But that's different than listening to messaging directly from a trusted source.
Not a single source, but basically from almost everyone back in Jan. and Feb.
Including Media, WHO, CDC etc.

-t
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Apr 24, 2020, 04:15 PM
 
Welp, Georgia is now an official control group. Only 1% of the state’s residents have been tested. Should be fun!
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Waragainstsleep
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Apr 24, 2020, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, one has to be skeptical about some “science” and and professionals.

Remember how they told us Covid-19 wouldn’t impact us in the US.
And how we were better prepared.
And how face masks didn’t work.
And how it can’t spread asymptomatically.

The science / medical community has been very wrong for many months.
They are doing it to themselves.

-t
The scientific community agreed on masks. I remember them not being sure about asymptomatic transmission, not sure it was impossible. The other two sound like the kind of scientists you hear on Fox News. Or from Trump.


They shouldn't correct him about imbibing bleach. The only ones who might listen are Trump voters and America could use a few less of those.
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OreoCookie
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Apr 25, 2020, 01:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, one has to be skeptical about some “science” and and professionals.

Remember how they told us Covid-19 wouldn’t impact us in the US.
And how we were better prepared.
And how face masks didn’t work.
And how it can’t spread asymptomatically.

The science / medical community has been very wrong for many months.
They are doing it to themselves.
That’s not an accurate representation of what scientists say. Most developed countries on Earth have dealt with the Covid-19 pandemic better, because their response by politicians and bureaucracies (informed by scientists) has been superior to that of the US. Not to speak of the US’s catastrophic health care system. All countries got their information from the WHO — yet South Korea that had its first reported case of Covid-19 on the same day as the US has reacted quite differently.

With regards to masks in particular, the main arguments against were and are the scarcity of PPE for medical professionals, care providers and other people who need it to protect others, and the fact that people could think that wearing masks were a substitute for social distancing (this is what’s happening in Japan at the moment). Also, I don’t think home-made masks were on people’s mind as much.

On a larger scale, I think your reaction indicates that you misunderstand how science works. Science is an iterative process of systematically improving our understanding how things work. When we learn something new and revise our models, then some people interpret this as “science having been wrong”. The same goes when, say, scientists at an earlier point say “there is no evidence that treatment X works”, which is often falsely interpreted as “scientists say treatment X does not work.”

Not to speak of more subtle points where certain measures can help on the scale of individuals but be counter productive on the scale of the population. One example that comes to mind are bicycle helmets. Since age 14, when I got my first new bike, I wear a helmet. Clearly, helmets — just like seat belts — are beneficial on average when you have an accident. But mandating helmets seems to have detrimental effects, because evidence suggests that people then cycle less, which increases the rate of cardiovascular diseases, obesity, etc. So once you put this on the other side of the ledger, mandating helmets can be detrimental. At the very least, the discussion is more nuanced.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Not a single source, but basically from almost everyone back in Jan. and Feb.
Including Media, WHO, CDC etc.
There is no “The Media”. If you haven’t seen this in the media back then, you should diversify your media diet. Back then the media I have read have all said that Covid-19 had the potential to become a serious, world-wide pandemic. If you get your information from Fox News, yes, they downplayed the risks, claiming it was overblown.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Apr 25, 2020 at 02:00 AM. )
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Apr 25, 2020, 02:36 AM
 
Some good news. With acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly gone, his successor and the Navy CNO have recommended reinstating Captain Brett Crozier as commander of CVN-71 Theodore Roosevelt.

The recommendation has been submitted to Defense Secretary Mark Esper, who says he will consider it.

btw: recent figures for TR are 840 infected (out of 4,938), 1 dead. Crozier is one of the infected, though recovering.

( Last edited by reader50; Apr 25, 2020 at 05:00 AM. Reason: added specific totals)
     
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Apr 25, 2020, 02:54 AM
 
That is good news. I am sure his case will be taught at the Naval academy as a lesson to aspiring officers.
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subego
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Apr 25, 2020, 04:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That is good news. I am sure his case will be taught at the Naval academy as a lesson to aspiring officers.
Ehh... I don’t think the Navy wants to change the culture surrounding this. If he‘s invited back it’ll be awk...ward.
     
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Apr 25, 2020, 06:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Ehh... I don’t think the Navy wants to change the culture surrounding this. If he‘s invited back it’ll be awk...ward.
???
Why would that represent a change in culture? I don't know whether Crozier will be re-instated, but I expect that his actions will be taught to aspiring officers in the future.
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subego
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Apr 25, 2020, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
???
Why would that represent a change in culture? I don't know whether Crozier will be re-instated, but I expect that his actions will be taught to aspiring officers in the future.
From the way I understand it, the reason he got sacked is because he went to the public, i.e, outside the chain-of-command.

Navy culture is that’s something you simply do not do. I don’t think the Navy wants to change this.

It’s going to be a sticky wicket for Naval professors, because for whatever good it caused, he committed a career-ending move.

As in, he knew it would be career-ending when he did it.
     
OreoCookie
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Apr 25, 2020, 07:39 AM
 
I’m not a Navy officer, but given that the Navy wants him back, I reckon they have a different opinion.
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subego
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Apr 25, 2020, 08:08 AM
 
The one thing I can comfortably say the Navy wants as a whole is for this to go away.
     
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Apr 25, 2020, 12:40 PM
 
Crozier went public only after “through channels” attempts to get some relief for his crew were ignored. Wiki says the Roosevelt has a complement of 3,200 crew, with an air wing complement of 2,480; all the personal responsibility of the captain.

The Navy has a history of putting commanders in positions where they had enormous responsibilities and horrendously insufficient resources - and/or giving them contradictory orders that included essentially “we don’t care whether this is possible, do it” orders. There’s a very large rate of suicide among naval officers in command positions... So far, The Navy has essentially considered this a professional hazard.

I was in a very low level position while on active duty in the Air Force, responsible for a few hands full of people, and I felt the burden of having to take care of my people without support, resources or even acknowledgement by my superiors that the job was essentially impossible to do without burning out. Which, by the way, I did...

In any case, even The Navy (note the capitals) can’t ignore the public’s outrage at having a commander sacked because he was trying to take care of his crew.

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turtle777
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Apr 25, 2020, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Navy culture is that’s something you simply do not do. I don’t think the Navy wants to change this.

It’s going to be a sticky wicket for Naval professors, because for whatever good it caused, he committed a career-ending move.
.
Yep. Have a former Naval officer in the family, and multiple army officers. Leadership style is night and day difference.
The Navy fosters and mostly promotes bad leaders. If you speak up and do the right thing, its a career ending move.

-t
( Last edited by turtle777; Apr 25, 2020 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Spällieng)
     
andi*pandi
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Apr 25, 2020, 03:22 PM
 
the administration talking point was that he went around the pecking order, but the story behind that is the higher ups weren't doing **** all about it.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Apr 25, 2020 at 03:40 PM. )
     
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Apr 25, 2020, 05:05 PM
 
Near as I can tell, Trump didn't have anything to do with this situation. I think Modley took all the actions on his lonesome, without even clearing it with the Secretary of Defense.
  • Denied the Captain's request for medical measures - sent more test kits instead.
  • Relieved Crozier of command, against the recommendation of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs to let the Navy finish investigating first.
  • After the crew cheered Crozier, Modley flew to Guam and made an ass of himself to the TR crew. On public intercom, which promptly leaked.
  • Modley gave an insincere apology on direct orders of the Secretary of Defense, which no one bought.
  • Modley resigned, with my strong suspicion it was that or be fired.
The Navy CNO has apparently signed off on the investigation, and co-ordinated with the new (acting) Secretary of the Navy to recommend reinstatement. So the investigation has concluded, and Cpt. Crozier did not leak his own memo. One of the 30+ senior officers he sent it to must have leaked it.

As I see it, the new Secretary of the Navy could reverse his predecessor's action, but has taken the more politic course and kicked it to the Secretary of Defense. BTW, the new acting Secretary of the Navy is a retired Admiral. So two *very* senior Navy men have concluded Cpt. Crozier's actions were acceptable.
     
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Apr 26, 2020, 09:24 AM
 
Trump may not have ordered the guy sacked, but who was it who was trying to hide the outbreak on board from the public?
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subego
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Apr 26, 2020, 09:40 AM
 
Again, I’d say that’s a basic part of Navy culture. To the Navy, the outbreak was Navy business, not public business.
     
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Apr 26, 2020, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Again, I’d say that’s a basic part of Navy culture. To the Navy, the outbreak was Navy business, not public business.
That is not the vibe I’m getting. I thought the idea to relieve Crozier was not the Navy’s but that of the Acting Secretary who wanted to be in Trump’s good graces. And the Navy tried to protect Crozier. How do you square that?
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Apr 26, 2020, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Again, I’d say that’s a basic part of Navy culture. To the Navy, the outbreak was Navy business, not public business.
In a global pandemic? Its a risk to the public, its public business.
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subego
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Apr 26, 2020, 10:39 PM
 
How do people, in quarantine, on a ship, put the public at risk?
     
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Apr 26, 2020, 10:49 PM
 
A ship becoming 100% infected all at once, with inadequate medical facilities (less than a dozen beds, only 2 ICU beds). A nuclear-armed ship*. Filled with ~5K people, with 100K+ close relatives among the public.

Nah, no public interest.

* Nuclear weapons on board U.S. aircraft carriers since the end of the Cold War has neither been confirmed nor denied by the U.S. government.
     
subego
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Apr 26, 2020, 10:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That is not the vibe I’m getting. I thought the idea to relieve Crozier was not the Navy’s but that of the Acting Secretary who wanted to be in Trump’s good graces. And the Navy tried to protect Crozier. How do you square that?
I’m going by what I know of the Navy. As soon as this happened, I knew he’d get sacked. Every article about this describes Crozier’s actions as a “career-threatening move”. Is it being described that way because there’s only a single appointee Crozier had to worry about?

What the top brass are saying right now is colloquially known as lying.
     
subego
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Apr 26, 2020, 11:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
A ship becoming 100% infected all at once, with inadequate medical facilities (less than a dozen beds, only 2 ICU beds). A nuclear-armed ship*. Filled with ~5K people, with 100K+ close relatives among the public.

Nah, no public interest.

* Nuclear weapons on board U.S. aircraft carriers since the end of the Cold War has neither been confirmed nor denied by the U.S. government.
I’m having trouble coming up with a plausible scenario whereby this could have threatened any nuclear assets.

I don’t think the Navy lets the families of people in the service affect their command decisions.
     
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Apr 27, 2020, 01:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How do people, in quarantine, on a ship, put the public at risk?
Have you thought about what might happen to a nuclear aircraft carrier if left unattended?
Just from the top of my head, imagine if all the nuclear engineers get seriously ill. What do you think might happen to a nuclear reactor without qualified nuclear engineers? Or people who are in charge of keeping other essential systems in shape? Is anyone keeping an eye on the nuclear weapons on board? I have never been in the navy, but I am quite sure there are plenty of highly skilled jobs where people are not just arbitrarily replaceable cogs.

Of course, this is in addition to the lives of the sailors, which by itself is plenty a reason.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m going by what I know of the Navy. As soon as this happened, I knew he’d get sacked. Every article about this describes Crozier’s actions as a “career-threatening move”. Is it being described that way because there’s only a single appointee Crozier had to worry about?
It seems very myopic to just look at the last bits of the story, it ignores what has happened before. Crozier did try the appropriate channels. This is bad management from the top. Covid-19 outbreaks in the military should have been anticipated and dealt with correctly. If there is a significant outbreak on a nuclear aircraft carrier, I would expect that this would have risen all the way to the top.

And I don't think there is any argument that given we are dealing with the Trump administration, that Crozier being relieved of duty came as a surprise (least to Crozier I imagine), nobody seems to make that argument. But that doesn't make his move wrong (morally and legally).
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What the top brass are saying right now is colloquially known as lying.
What are they lying about? (I'm not following.)
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subego
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Apr 27, 2020, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Have you thought about what might happen to a nuclear aircraft carrier if left unattended?
This is an implausible scenario. The carrier isn’t on the moon. The Navy can get as many engineers there as they need.
     
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Apr 27, 2020, 06:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How do people, in quarantine, on a ship, put the public at risk?
How many people on board? If one or two decide they need to get out and get to shore, that's a risk. If they don't have adequate care, equipment or supplies then a mutiny could occur and a whole lot of them jump to shore.
Or maybe if they are all being left to fend for themselves the public would just want to know that serving members of their armed forces are being mistreated or neglected.
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Apr 27, 2020, 07:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is an implausible scenario. The carrier isn’t on the moon. The Navy can get as many engineers there as they need.
… and put more lives in danger? I’m really at a loss for words.
Perhaps the Navy also sends a few more hospital beds and tents over so that all the serious cases can be treated on flight deck.
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Apr 27, 2020, 07:38 AM
 
Trying to get off an aircraft carrier means likely getting killed. Mutiny is life in prison... I can’t say I find either of these scenarios probable either.
     
subego
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
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Apr 27, 2020, 07:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
… and put more lives in danger?
Yes.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
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Apr 28, 2020, 04:40 PM
 
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
andi*pandi
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
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Apr 29, 2020, 07:46 AM
 
And also to withhold aid unless they give in to his demands. The president is a terrorist.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Apr 29, 2020, 09:41 AM
 
Iowa's growth rate is spiking hard, governor is reopening non-essential business in 77/99 counties.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
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Apr 29, 2020, 09:54 AM
 
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
turtle777
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: planning a comeback !
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Apr 29, 2020, 10:25 AM
 
Stop posting fake news.
It's just the flu.

[/sarc]

-t
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
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May 2, 2020, 07:55 AM
 
White House blocks Fauci from testifying to House committee.
Note that he is still set to testify to Senate committees.
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
 
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