[Gator Lager]

Hmmmmmm a mystery for sure. Yeah right.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

[eltrut]

I did. My bad.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Interesting.

I thought the electric car didn't get that great a range, the batteries took up too much space and they were expensive.

[Gator Lager]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Interesting.

I thought the electric car didn't get that great a range, the batteries took up too much space and they were expensive.

batteries have gotten smaller but the price hasn't. their hasn't been a major market for them.
till now.

[production_coordinator]

Also, electricity isn't clean. Unless it's wind... and the environmentalists are even against wind at this point.

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Also, electricity isn't clean. Unless it's wind... and the environmentalists are even against wind at this point.

How about sun ?

[Eug Wanker]

Yeah, as someone who owns a gas-electric hybrid, I'd say electric cars killed electric cars. They are essentially useless for a large part of the population. Very impractical.

[Gator Lager]

their are lot's of alternative power sources.

this show was on the discovery channel
http://www.coolfuelroadtrip.com/technology.htm

and this site is... well read the title. select the drop-down menu for technology
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006...energy_par.php

[Gator Lager]

forgot one. this site just plain rocks.
strictly home-brew stuff.
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html

so the point being, gas ain't the only fuel source in town. just the easiest at hand.

face it, we've been sheep. being lead around.
BAAAAAAAAAAA

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by eltrut

How about sun ?

Do you have any idea of the horrible chemicals used to create solar panels!

Where's that tin foil hat...

[Eug Wanker]

I think sun is very dangerous. Prolonged exposure can cause severe burns, and puts you at risk for various types of cancers, some of them quite aggressive.

If we wish to be a responsible society, we should try to eliminate sun completely from all aspects of our life.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I think sun is very dangerous. Prolonged exposure can cause severe burns, and puts you at risk for various types of cancers, some of them quite aggressive.

If we wish to be a responsible society, we should try to eliminate sun completely from all aspects of our life.

Thanks Mr. Burns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Shot_Mr._Burns%3F

[cpt kangarooski]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Do you have any idea of the horrible chemicals used to create solar panels!

Where's that tin foil hat...

Not all solar power involves photovoltaics.

[tooki]

I think it's funny how people think electric cars are a recent invention. In fact, some of the very first cars (before gasoline engines came out) were electric.

tooki

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by tooki

I think it's funny how people think electric cars are a recent invention. In fact, some of the very first cars (before gasoline engines came out) were electric.

tooki

Then the question is even more important. With that much history why don't they rule the streets?

[tooki]

Because the oil industry hated the idea.

tooki

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Then the question is even more important. With that much history why don't they rule the streets?

Because back then, you couldn't go far on that little battery charge, and cable cars just stink when it comes to personalized mobility.

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by tooki

Because the oil industry hated the idea.

Wrong.

The oil industry had very little power in the mid 19th century.
Technology-wise the gasoline enginer won over the electric engine in the late 19th century. Had nothing to do with the oil industry being as strong of a lobby group as today.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by eltrut

Because back then, you couldn't go far on that little battery charge, and cable cars just stink when it comes to personalized mobility.

Right but that was what 100 years ago. If they came up with something then they should have improved on it by now.

Personal computers stunk at just about everything when they first came out but 30 years later they have come a LOOONG way.

[sabrejim]

Video killed the electric car?

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by tooki

Because the oil industry hated the idea.

tooki

The oil industry wasn't around when the first electric cars were produced. At least not in the capacity they are today. Of course the technology for electric cars back then made them even more impractical than today, giving fossile fuels the go ahead to be the method of choice for powering our vehichles.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by tooki

Because the oil industry hated the idea.

tooki

...and historically oil has been cheap and plentiful. It's still somewhat plentiful... but people have wised up as to supply/demand.

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Right but that was what 100 years ago. If they came up with something then they should have improved on it by now.

Electric engines/cars are (from a technological perspective) moe complex / comlicated than gasoline driven engines/cars.

That's why the gasoline powered ones have been "perfected" earlier. The time of the electric cars is still ahead.

[hey!_Zeus]

I said the sparrow with my bow and arrow.

Electric cars just couldn't cut it.

[greenamp]

Electric cars still come with their own baggage. Much of the electric grid in the states is powered by coal/petroleum burning plants of some sort. And then we have the concept of what happens to all those millions and millions of batteries 50 years from now (now being a point at which all carts were electric)? Ideally they would all be recycled, but humans are generally lazy, self centered, and sort sighted. Battery dumps would eventually become an issue.

The more and more I think of it, the more I'm starting to think that maybe there simply is no solution to our growing energy consumption demands. Just about every solution comes with an unfortunate side effect later on down the road.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Electric cars still come with their own baggage. Much of the electric grid in the states is powered by coal/petroleum burning plants of some sort. And then we have the concept of what happens to all those millions and millions of batteries 50 years from now (now being a point at which all carts were electric)? Ideally they would all be recycled, but humans are generally lazy, self centered, and sort sighted. Battery dumps would eventually become an issue.

The more and more I think of it, the more I'm starting to think that maybe there simply is no solution to our growing energy consumption demands. Just about every solution comes with an unfortunate side effect later on down the road.

Funny you say that... even wind is under attack in my area. The turbines apparently kill birds and bats.

[ink]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Then the question is even more important. With that much history why don't they rule the streets?

They don't have the range of petrol.

But they're fine for in-city driving/commuting (especially if you can plug in at work and get "free" energy). Basically, if you only relied on electric vehicles, you would be unable to go on any sort of road trip unless it was on public transportation (airlines, trains, etc.).

Now, there's nothing stopping some sort of governmental agency from standardizing batteries so that "gas" stations could swap in/out batteries for quick recharges. It would require a lot of infrastructure that isn't there now, and I'm sure the oil companies wouldn't be very happy about it.

I remember going to Fashion Place in Newport about 12 years ago, and the entire front row of parking was reserved for electric cars. Each parking space had an outlet so that you could recharge your vehicle while you were shopping. The last time I went down there, they had removed them all.

[Eug Wanker]

The reason I saw electric cars are impractical is because when you run out of juice, you can't go anywhere. The car has to sit and charge.

With diesel/gas/vegetable oil/hydrogen/ethanol etc., you can just fill up and go. Kinda hard to fill up with hydrogen or vegetable oil, but it can be done. You can't easily "fill up" with electricity, unless you exchange the battery or something.

[sabrejim]

Carry spare batteries. Pick up hitchikers for their juice, babies should work well too.

[ink]

Originally Posted by eltrut

Electric engines/cars are (from a technological perspective) moe complex / comlicated than gasoline driven engines/cars.

That's why the gasoline powered ones have been "perfected" earlier. The time of the electric cars is still ahead.

Huh? Electric motors are far simpler, and if you have direct-drive (a motor on each wheel) then there isn't even a drivetrain, and you get independent accleration (4WD). From wikipedia:

The reasons that electric motors are a good choice to drive vehicles are that they can be finely controlled, they deliver power efficiently and they are mechanically very simple. Electric motors often achieve 90% conversion efficiency over the full range of speeds and power output and can be precisely controlled. Electric motors can provide high torque while an EV is stopped, unlike internal combustion engines, and do not need gears to match power curves. This removes the need for gearboxes and torque convertors. Electric motors also have the ability to convert movement energy back into electricity, through regenerative braking. This can be used to reduce the wear on brake systems and reduce the total energy requirement of a typical trip.

Originally Posted by greenamp

Much of the electric grid in the states is powered by coal/petroleum burning plants of some sort.

Those plants are much better at cleaning air pollution than your internal combustion engine is. Don't forget about the petrolium refineries that spew pollution in order to make your fuel as well.

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by ink

Huh? Electric motors are far simpler,

But NOT the power source !

That's why I said "electric engine/car". It's the whole package that makes it inferior to gasoline.

[ink]

Originally Posted by eltrut

But NOT the power source !

That's why I said "electric engine/car". It's the whole package that makes it inferior to gasoline.

The power source is pretty simple too, it just doesn't have the range that petrol does. It's not as convenient; but if you could imagine all gas stations having an on-hand supply of fully charged batteries... Some oil company could even make it big by being the first to manage the infrastructure for that endeavor. There are also some radical ideas like power-on-demand freeways that handle powering vehicles driving on them (think of your old Tyco race car set). This would allow for "unlimited" range and you can still take your own car on the road.

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by ink

The power source is pretty simple too, it just doesn't have the range that petrol does. It's not as convenient; but if you could imagine all gas stations having an on-hand supply of fully charged batteries... Some oil company could even make it big by being the first to manage the infrastructure for that endeavor. There are also some radical ideas like power-on-demand freeways that handle powering vehicles driving on them (think of your old Tyco race car set). This would allow for "unlimited" range and you can still take your own car on the road.

What ? Switching batteries at the gas station ?

Have you seen the battery packs for hybrid cars ? You don't change that like you change two AA's.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Don't they have batteries that can charge to 80% in a few minutes?

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Don't they have batteries that can charge to 80% in a few minutes?

I don't think that these sort of batteries have a high capacity.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by eltrut

But NOT the power source !

That's why I said "electric engine/car". It's the whole package that makes it inferior to gasoline.

Uh, the power source isn't part of the motor. The drivetrain of an electric car is really, really simple.

Batteries are simple, too. They're just not small enough.

tooki

[ink]

Originally Posted by eltrut

What ? Switching batteries at the gas station ?

Have you seen the battery packs for hybrid cars ? You don't change that like you change two AA's.

Right.....

But we're not talking about current-gen hybrid cars.

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by tooki

Uh, the power source isn't part of the motor. The drivetrain of an electric car is really, really simple.
Batteries are simple, too. They're just not small enough.

More disadvantages than that.

Don't last long, take long to recharge, are expensive (think batteries vs. empty tank) etc...

[eltrut]

Originally Posted by ink

But we're not talking about current-gen hybrid cars.

What makes you think the batteries of an all electric powered car are gonna be smaller than those of a hybrid car? They're gonna be even larger. Doh !

[tooki]

They are not small enough (= low energy density), which is why you can't fit enough batteries in a car to give it ample range. They can be charged relatively quickly, in just a few hours. Plug it in when at home and at work and you'd probably never run out of juice.

Seriously, energy storage is the only thing holding back electric cars.

tooki

[The Godfather]

The oil industry didn't kill the electric car. They just didn't step up and nourish the technology. Electric cars need to sprout by their own merit, and it will come, with time.

A kilogram of gas has over 100 times more energy than a kilogram of Lithium batteries. Even with the pathetic efficiency of combustion engines, a electric cars won't be driving 250 miles per tank like gas cars do.

Another problem is that nobody feels the stake of air and thermal pollution. I need a way of showing people that burning gas lowers the value of our planet in the same way that pissing on your laminate floor lowers the value of your house.

[greenamp]

The range limitation of a pure electric car can be solved by simply involving a smaller combustion engine as a generator. Something like 10-15hp would suffice to keep the batteries charged between plug-ins. And they also could implement the kinetic energy charging devices on the brakes, just like modern hybrid vehicles have.

Now, having a small diesel generator would still require being addicted to oil, but on a drastically smaller scale. And these engines could very easily use bio-diesel or ethanol.

[Eriamjh]

Anyone who sees that movie will be bombarded with nothing but conspiracy theories with no proof to back it up.

To boil it down, the EV1 was an experiment. There are thousands of unique parts used on those cars. The parts are no longer being made as they are not required to be made (because the car was not regular production which requires 7 years of parts). GM had to crush them because of liability concerns in today's litigious society. They would not even sell them to the public at any price.

Hybrid cars are the best compromise of highly powerful gasoline engines, clean electric technology, and COST. Until fuel costs rise to 3-10 times what they are today, hybrids will remain that way.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by greenamp

The range limitation of a pure electric car can be solved by simply involving a smaller combustion engine as a generator. Something like 10-15hp would suffice to keep the batteries charged between plug-ins. And they also could implement the kinetic energy charging devices on the brakes, just like modern hybrid vehicles have.

Now, having a small diesel generator would still require being addicted to oil, but on a drastically smaller scale. And these engines could very easily use bio-diesel or ethanol.

Just remember to park your car outside the garage overnight, or risk asphixiation the next morning. LOL!

I like your idea of onboard gas for off-peak charging. A small fuel cell could easily (and more efficiently) charge the batteries/capacitors.

[analogika]

Who killed the electric car?

[ink]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

I like your idea of onboard gas for off-peak charging. A small fuel cell could easily (and more efficiently) charge the batteries/capacitors.

There are a lot of cool options (as seen in this thread).

We won't really explore them until the cost of petrol is too high, though. Hopefully it won't be a diaster if we wait until then. Wouldn't it be nice to have options such as this, while there are still trillions of barrels of oil in the ground?

Also, most new electric power plants in the US are natural-gas powered (which, until recently, gave the most bang-for-buck within EPA guidelines). This means that the percentage of electric power coming from petrol sources is growing, not shrinking. You know, the same electric power that is supposedly going to power your electric car.

[tooki]

But a power plant's efficiency is FAR greater than that of an automotive engine.

tooki

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by tooki

But a power plant's efficiency is FAR greater than that of an automotive engine.

tooki

I think the electric car needs to be re-evaluated. Not only are we on the verge of making viable fusion power plants, but hydrogen fuel-cells also provide a no-waste option. Not to mention the number of jobs we could create by replacing all of our coal, natrual gas, and nuclear power plants with fusion.

[ink]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Not to mention the number of jobs we could create...

It's win-win; the only thing that seems to be holding us back is fear of the unknown.

[Spliffdaddy]

and finding all that free hydrogen