[ambush]

Clich� Software Releases Chercher 1.0

LONDON, UK -- 14 October, 2003 -- Clich� Software today released Chercher, a sleek utility for instantly searching the web from any application.

Whether you need to Google for an obscure scientific piece of trivia or look up a word in an on-line dictionary, all you need to do is hit a single key combination and type the terms. Hit the return key and you're away.

No longer do you have to faff around launching your web browser, opening a new window, trying to remember the URL of the site you're looking for (or hunting for it in your bookmarks). Chercher makes searching as easy as, well, something very easy!

Not only that, it's pretty too! You get a sleek interface that fits right in with Mac OS X's semi-transparent flowing curves. The Chercher search window embodies subtlety and elegance. It almost makes you forget that this is a flexible front-end to any internet search engine!

Pricing & Availability

Chercher is available for immediate download from http://www.clichesw.com/products/chercher/, and requires Mac OS X v10.2 Jaguar. It will run in unlicensed mode until a serial number is purchased for $5.95 from our online store.

That's right my friends.

Here are some screenshots:

[phillryu]

Cool, looks like Ambrosia's searchling thing, but free and cool overlay. Great for doing vocab hw.

[phillryu]

Oops, it's not free, hehe. But it is 10 bucks cheaper

[natan]

I'm glad to have helped get Chercher out there, and it's a great product.

[moki]

Originally posted by phillryu:
Cool, looks like Ambrosia's searchling thing, but free and cool overlay. Great for doing vocab hw.

I wasn't going to say anything in public, but now that you brought it up... it's pretty clear that someone saw the screenshots we've had available for iSeek for a while, and decided to make a clone of it.

That's okay, it happens -- but they are also using the exact same default icons, the exact same drop-down menu icon, the exact same UI layout, the exact same menu layout, and have even copied the search sites we're offering almost verbatim.

In other words, it's a pretty blatant knock-off.

Regardless of this rather unfortunate situation, I'd like to point out that iSeek offers features that Chercher does not, and you'll be able to see/feel the difference in a day or two, when we release iSeek.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Not really...

You just decided to post screenshots of it early. You have no idea when Chercher was being developed.

And I'm really surprised iSeek wasn't released a long time ago. I'm not saying it's an easy project, but it's certainly not a very complex one either.

Chercher was released first...it seems like iSeek is the knock-off...not the other way around.

If you're so secretive about things being copied (especially something as easily copiable as iSeek), don't mention anything about it or don't post screenshots of it until very late beta.

[moki]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Chercher was released first...it seems like iSeek is the knock-off...not the other way around.

See my above post. If it were just another tool for searching the Internet (of which there are many), then I'd agree with you that it isn't a ripoff.

However, they are using the exact same icons, UI for various parts of the program, and have copied the search sites we've included with iSeek almost verbatim.

That makes it fairly obvious that the scenario I presented is exactly how it happened. Not illegal, but certainly a bit unfortunate.

And I'm really surprised iSeek wasn't released a long time ago. I'm not saying it's an easy project, but it's certainly not a very complex one either.

We've spent a lot of time developing the UI (which is all the more annoying when parts of it are ripped off), and we've also spent a very long time making sure we had lots of useful search sites (which is also annoying to have ripped off).

We've also implemented a number of very cool features that programs like Chercher lack, and have doing a significant amount of QA on the product.

[moki]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
You just decided to post screenshots of it early. You have no idea when Chercher was being developed.

I should also note that I know people who were involved with the project, and they've stated that my scenario is accurate in terms of how it transpired.

Hopefully next time Cliche will decide to develop their own product ideas and UI.

[ambush]

Originally posted by moki:
I wasn't going to say anything in public, but now that you brought it up... it's pretty clear that someone saw the screenshots we've had available for iSeek for a while, and decided to make a clone of it.

That's okay, it happens -- but they are also using the exact same default icons, the exact same drop-down menu icon, the exact same UI layout, the exact same menu layout, and have even copied the search sites we're offering almost verbatim.

In other words, it's a pretty blatant knock-off.

Regardless of this rather unfortunate situation, I'd like to point out that iSeek offers features that Chercher does not, and you'll be able to see/feel the difference in a day or two, when we release iSeek.

My goal is not to start a war between our two companies.

I'd like to say that Chercher is a very old project that we had in mind since a very long time, but then again we don't have any proofs.

It was going to be a menu bar search too, but we decided against it when we learned about iSeek. We opted for the panel thingy, and I think it really pays off.

Exact same default icon. Hmm. Either we're using the site's favicon or using Aqua's default "earth" icon.

As for the menu structure, what can I say? I could say you copied me if I had released screenshots a long time ago, but I didn't.

We had goals in mind for the 1.0 and we've reached them and I'm quite happy with the results. I'll have to check out iSeek when it gets out and adjust myself, I guess.

Again, sorry.

[phillryu]

Moki, are you kidding me?

Search site icons appear to be web browser favicons. Isn't that an obvious way to go? What else do you suggest?

And the search icon is a 'ripoff' of Apple's, in Safari/Mail/Finder, etc. Are you suggesting that he ripped off you, while you ripped off Apple? Eh?

[moki]

Originally posted by phillryu:
Moki, are you kidding me?

Search site icons appear to be web browser favicons. Isn't that an obvious way to go? What else do you suggest?

Have a look at their default search sites -- have a look at the default search sites we've been showing that iSeek includes.

The default icons are the same -- okay, maybe a coincidence. The menu structure is identical as well. Another coincidence? The search sites are copied almost verbatim. Another coincidence? And so on and so forth.

I don't make the accusations lightly, but I have ample reasons to make them, both from people who have talked to me, and forensic evidence as well.

Whatever, it's done, I'll stop complaining about it. (BTW, I did email Finlay privately about this -- hopefully he'll respond and we can settle the matter privately with us)

[phillryu]

The edit sites thing looks pretty similar.. but regarding the search sites, most of them are pretty obvious...

Google, dictionary, IMDB, rotten tomatoes, macupdate, etc. I mean, come on, any search app needs those.

We'll see with iSeek what's the big deal: why it's worth 3 times the price, and why it's taken a long time. I don't take your comments seriously Moki, because iSeek hasn't been released yet, and I haven't been able to try it. Quite frankly, it seems that you're a bit upset about some competition, but hey, things like this happen. Anyone remember Antz/A Bug's Life? They both weren't bad, both were box office hits, GL to both of you.

And after all this, I'm still not buying either

[ambush]

Originally posted by moki:
Have a look at their default search sites -- have a look at the default search sites we've been showing that iSeek includes.

The default icons are the same -- okay, maybe a coincidence. The menu structure is identical as well. Another coincidence? The search sites are copied almost verbatim. Another coincidence? And so on and so forth.

I don't make the accusations lightly, but I have ample reasons to make them, both from people who have talked to me, and forensic evidence as well.

Whatever, it's done, I'll stop complaining about it.

I just feel like repeating what I said earlier..

The default icons are either the site's favicon, either it's the aqua earth safari uses when there is no favicon So it'd be more accurate to say that I took Safari's Aqua earth, just like you.

The search sites were ALL sites BETA TESTERS suggested.

Finally, I will add that this idea of a quick site searcher is not original at all. In fact, Safari, AnotherLauncher, Firebird and Camino use it.

I'd be curious to ear what people told you. I already have a little idea of who it could be. Someone who is always trying to pick holes in our business.

Whatever he tells you. You're free to believe him.

[moki]

Perhaps they would rather believe your own confession:



...perhaps that would explain the remarkable similarity between the two programs, hrm?

[phillryu]

Wow man, this is getting down right dirty! Did you read him his Miranda rights Moki?

[pooka]

Hmm, might be cooler if you guys discussed this via PM. That's if you even want to discuss it. If not I'm happy to continue reading the thread.

The only comment I have to make is that the menu structure of the two apps is almost identical. Hell, the old screenshot I posted in the politics lounge (pissin' with moki) back in June or so looks pretty close to the Chercher screens you posted today. Whatever. Looks like the two apps are destined to battle it out on versiontracker and macupdate. May the best developer win (registrations).



edit: screenshot from last June.

[Horsepoo!!!]

What the f**k...iSeek and Chercher are frickin' search apps based around:

The new Panther (seen occasionally in Apple iApps pre-Panther) search field look using Favicons or default Apple icons.

Menu structures aside (I can't believe one would argue that his app was ripped off because of menu structures), the bezel/panel idea is, IMO, much better and cleaner than that ridiculous menuling idea. The two apps aren't even remotely the same except for the central concept.

The search field in the menubar looks stupid and takes up waaaay too much space (even if you can collapse it, there's too much animation and space-wastage when it's expanded).

Sorry but knock-off or not (not!), I think Chercher is the winner.

[phillryu]

To tell you the truth Moki, this is one case of an Ambrosia product where I don't see the big deal. Why is it worth 15 bucks? All it does basically is save you the step of going to a website to type in the search box.

And don't get me wrong, I'm a very loyal customer. All your OS X games, snapz pro, they're all registered under Phillip Ryu or my dad

You know what would be great? If someone ripped these off for free hehe.

For example, take Launchbar. (Ironically, it's embroiled in some "you copied me" stuff too atm, though this time a PC rip). Launchbar is arguably much more useful (saves more clicks than your app), used more often, and a more complex and deeper app. It's 5 bucks more than your web search tool. Maybe iSeek should consider a price reduction?

[moki]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
The search field in the menubar looks stupid and takes up waaaay too much space (even if you can collapse it, there's too much animation and space-wastage when it's expanded).

Sorry but knock-off or not (not!), I think Chercher is the winner.

Ah well, that's your right to decide. Give iSeek a shot when it comes out, see if you still feel that way.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by moki:
Ah well, that's your right to decide. Give iSeek a shot when it comes out, see if you still feel that way.

Well...I will.

I know Ambrosia always releases quality stuff. But out of the current project, iSeek was the one I was least interested in.

Looking forward to see your next incarnation of Snapz Pro X and Redline though. And if you're still working on Apeiron for X, I'm happy.

[fireside]

yes moki. like you just did not totally ripoff this "iSearch" from "Searchling." oh wait, im sorry, you bought searchling out THEN decided to rip it off. big difference. the door swings both ways big boy.

[pooka]

Yeah, is there more to the story about Searchling? Is the author pissed about this?
link

[phillryu]

I thought Ambrosia contracts guys to make programs and publishes them? Aka, isn't the same guy still working on it?

I know that pop-pop was done by some guy over like two years of his life, and EV is done by some guys in Austrailia right?

[moki]

Originally posted by pooka:
Yeah, is there more to the story about Searchling? Is the author pissed about this?
link

The author of Searchling is the author of iSeek -- we teamed up with him, and redesigned the UI so that it is what iSeek is now. He's more than a little annoyed with this Chercher thing as well.

But whatever, I'm out of this thread, I said my peace.

[moki]

Originally posted by phillryu:
I thought Ambrosia contracts guys to make programs and publishes them? Aka, isn't the same guy still working on it?

Some are done in house, some are contracted out. Even the products that are contracted out, we have a hand in the design, testing, etc.

[Horsepoo!!!]

I'm actually glad there's a bit of competition. The two apps aren't even the same beyond the concept idea.

One is a menuling, the other is a bezel.

One is visible, the other is not.

The GUI beyond standard Apple HIG search fields and beyond standard icons is completely different.

The search sites might be the same, but it's a search tool, whaddya expect? Because one managed to put up a screenshot of his app with 'Google' as one of his search sites, the other is not allowed?

[moki]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
The search sites might be the same, but it's a search tool, whaddya expect? Because one managed to put up a screenshot of his app with 'Google' as one of his search sites, the other is not allowed?

Did you even see where the author admitted ripping off the UI, concepts, and content in iSeek? It's not illegal, of course, but c'mon, let's be honest with what was going on here.

[ambush]

Originally posted by moki:
Did you even see where the author admitted ripping off the UI, concepts, and content in iSeek? It's not illegal, of course, but c'mon, let's be honest with what was going on here.

I thought you said you were out of this thread?

Don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by moki:
Did you even see where the author admitted ripping off the UI, concepts, and content in iSeek? It's not illegal, of course, but c'mon, let's be honest with what was going on here.

He may have admitted copying your GUI...but, frankly, the two apps don't even look the same...at all.

So...yeah, the thought may have been there to rip you off, but I don't see much similarity between the two.

Just like I don't see similarities between Mac OS and Windows even though Bill has been caught admitting copying the Mac UI. (I'm by no means comparing iSeek or Chercher to Mac OS and Windows...just saying that someone can try and copy another but end up with a product that is not at all like what was copied.)

[Normal Guy]

It pretty obvious that you copied iSeek. It's also pretty obvious that you didn't put a whole lot of time or care into it. What's the point of a separate pane popping up? If I wanted that, I'd open up a browser. With iSeek it's nice and out of the way, but always available. Yours is missing a large number of features as well. You also know for sure with Ambrosia that they're going to support it, and use my money to make more great software. I've never heard of your company. Why should I send any money to you?

I mean, seriously, you blatantly copy another product, and then do a poor job at it. Your only selling feature is that it's out slightly earlier than the other one. Cheapness isn't a selling point when you get what you pay for.

[moki]

Originally posted by ambush:
I thought you said you were out of this thread?

Don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

I'm not. I also have the sequence of events on the record from people who participated in your beta test.

As for the doubters, when iSeek is released (tomorrow, most likely), try it, and tell me you don't experience more than a little bit of deja vu.

But as the author stated, that's our fault for making the pre-release screenshots public. Whether the authors bear some responsibility for blatant copying of features, UI, content, and timing the release 1 day before we announced the release of iSeek, well, that's for you to decide. Ruthless but good business tactics, or underhanded copying? You decide.

But you're right, I will cease whining now.

[Normal Guy]

Originally posted by moki:
As for the doubters, with iSeek is released (tomorrow, most likely)

Very cool. Can't wait to give it a try!

[TheIceMan]

moki: With all due respect, that ichat conversation you posted doesn't "prove" anything. All it contains are a few lines and no one "admitted fault". Rather it was you who mentioned it. I look forward to testing out iSeek. Friendly word of advice, don't let anger ruin the release of your software. Then it'll end up being you did this to me kind of thing. Be proud of what you have done and let it be. Why must things get so ugly? iSeek will speak for itself once people use it.

[pooka]

I'll give iSeek a shot. I'm a fan of Searchling.

For the record I downloaded Chercher. Everything else aside I have to say I like the implementation. It feels pretty sleek. Just wish there was an option to make it popup around the cursor cords. I'm using 3 monitors and I wish I didn't have to zip across the screen to click on a drop-down. I'll have the same issue with iSeek and it's pretty trivial so I'll shut up now.

Oh, and tab seems to cycle through the list but shift-tab doesn't go backwards. Might be nice. Arrow keys are all the way over there:
----------------------------------------------------------------------->

[natan]

Originally posted by moki:
I'm not. I also have the sequence of events on the record from people who participated in your beta test.

I participated in the Chercher beta test and none of the developers mentioned anything about iSeek nor Ambrosia.

[Catfish_Man]

<debates internally about whether to get into this mess>

I'm going to have to stand behind Moki on this one. Using Chercher the first time, I thought "waitasec, I thought this was called iSeek".

[Spliff]

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~mthole/se...index_old.html

Wasn't Searchling once an open source project? I think the author had even posted the source code at one time (see the above link). Doesn't releasing the source code mean that anyone can use it and develop a new app based on the original code?

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Spliff:
http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~mthole/se...index_old.html

Wasn't Searchling once an open source project? I think the author had even posted the source code at one time (see the above link). Doesn't releasing the source code mean that anyone can use it and develop a new app based on the original code?

Depends on the liscense.

[decursive]

i honestly hope someone develops a free open source alternative to both these programs.

[Peter]

Wow 2 search programs released that, uh, search sites and thats about all they have in common and already people are pissed

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Normal Guy:
It pretty obvious that you copied iSeek. It's also pretty obvious that you didn't put a whole lot of time or care into it. What's the point of a separate pane popping up? If I wanted that, I'd open up a browser. With iSeek it's nice and out of the way, but always available.

*shrug* You're entitled to your opinion, but it has been in development for some time, we've just kept schtum. As far as another pane, well, if your web browser behaves like Chercher then I'm very interested in what browser you're using. I am personally of the opinion that the menu bar is in danger of getting overcrowded, and having a text field in your menu bar seems a bit dodgy from a User Experience point of view. However, that is my opinion.

As far as including the same sites goes, *shock horror* we have similar opinions of what are the most popular sites on the net. We only had about 3 in there for development purposes, and during testing we asked people for their suggestions.

[nilobject]

Ok, this has to be mentioned, but Chercher and iSeek are not original ideas (as most anything else in the computer world is anymore). Konfabulator (an amazing program on it's own) has had a widget called "Where Is It?" that came out (if I recall correctly) with the original Konfabulator app in 2000. It's incredibly simple and elegant and it's a great addition to my dock. Kudos to Arlo Rose for his awesome contributions to the Mac world.

Otherwise, this topic is rather boring.

[moki]

Originally posted by nilobject:
Ok, this has to be mentioned, but Chercher and iSeek are not original ideas (as most anything else in the computer world is anymore).

Just to clarify: no one is saying the idea is new; indeed, the idea has been around for a very long time (long predating Konfabulator).

Rather that the similarities are so striking, and so prevalent in the implementation that it's pretty clear what went on here.

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by moki:
Did you even see where the author admitted ripping off the UI, concepts, and content in iSeek? It's not illegal, of course, but c'mon, let's be honest with what was going on here.

Says Moki, running a Mac - the most ripped off and blatently copied user interface ever. If copying an interface is good enough for Microsoft, then who are we to argue ?

If it's not illegal, then frakly Moki, you should shut up. Mud slinging on an internet forum just tarnishes your (deservedly high) reputation.

Lets face it, neither of these apps are ground breakingly revolutionary.

[Peter]

Two great apps released. Why are people complaining? Both will be a sucess.

[eevyl]

w00t superb rip-off! Fresh, cheaper, and even looks just the same!

Congrats for such a explosion of originality and for using such a great company product as a source of "inspiration".

I will remember to not post any prerelease information in this forums, unless I dare to run into an ambush.

People seem to want to see a lot of things but later keep in secrecy the ripoff.

[keston]

Originally posted by decursive:
i honestly hope someone develops a free open source alternative to both these programs.

Another Launcher kinda does the search thing too like these two apps, and does some more things, like controling iTunes via keyboard from any app, App launcher, and more. Its Donationware/Freeware.




I like to see competition, let the developers duke it out... its better for us (the consumers/users) in the long run. Better software and better prices. Keep em' coming

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by keston:
Another Launcher kinda does the search thing too like these two apps, and does some more things, like controling iTunes via keyboard from any app, App launcher, and more. Its Donationware/Freeware.




I like to see competition, let the developers duke it out... its better for us (the consumers/users) in the long run. Better software and better prices. Keep em' coming

Ohhh, now I like this one more than any of em now!

[Peter]

nice
Looking forward to comparing iSeek to Chercher etc

[Sven G]

Yeah, I agree that Another Launcher is a truly outstanding app: very good reviews, too, on VersionTracker. The donationware (voluntary and optional payment) formula is also a very good one, for this kind of apps, IMHO...