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AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 10:03 AM

I just got to thinking...if the port is the same on the old & new 12" PBs, can I just purchase a mini-DVI-out dongle seperately and use it to connect my old 12" PB to an Apple Display?

chabig · Sep 16, 2003, 10:07 AM

I thought the older Powerbook didn't have a mini-DVI port.

Chris

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 10:08 AM

It doesn't, I'm asking...

If this "mini port" is the exact same as the old PB, is the mini-DVI dongle the only thing that's making the difference?

chabig · Sep 16, 2003, 10:12 AM

I serously doubt it. If the older port had DVI capabilities, Apple would have touted it as such. Don't know, just saying...

Chris

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 10:16 AM

I realize it's highly unlikely, but man would that be a killer easter egg...

chabig · Sep 16, 2003, 10:30 AM

It sure would...

ibook_steve · Sep 16, 2003, 02:24 PM

No. Old 12" Powerbook is VGA only. DVI requires a lot more pins than VGA. Apple wouldn't sneak something as complicated as DVI into the older machines.

Steve

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 02:59 PM

You don't understand. There is no VGA port on the old 12" PB, it's a small rectangle in which you have to plug a dongle into it for it to output anything. It comes with a VGA-out dongle as well as a S-Video/RCA-out dongle, and I'm HOPING you can just buy the DVI-out dongle and instantly have DVI-out. I'm wondering if the capability lies within the PB or simply in the dongle.

Art Vandelay · Sep 16, 2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by AssassyN:
You don't understand. There is no VGA port on the old 12" PB, it's a small rectangle in which you have to plug a dongle into it for it to output anything. It comes with a VGA-out dongle as well as a S-Video/RCA-out dongle, and I'm HOPING you can just buy the DVI-out dongle and instantly have DVI-out. I'm wondering if the capability lies within the PB or simply in the dongle.

I think you're the one that doesn't understand. The old 12" AlBook had a mini-VGA port. You will not be able to plug in the new mini-DVI adaptor and get DVI out of that port. There is a huge difference between VGA and DVI.

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 03:24 PM

Obviously there is, but I'm thinking you guys assume there is a huge rectangular port on the 12" PB that's a VGA port on the old ones and a DVI port on the news ones; this is NOT the case.

I'm saying, if the tiny rectangular port in which you plug the dongles into are the SAME size on the new & old systems, this could possibly work...do we have confirmation the actual output ports are a different size?

diamondsw · Sep 16, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Obviously there is, but I'm thinking you guys assume there is a huge rectangular port on the 12" PB that's a VGA port on the old ones and a DVI port on the news ones; this is NOT the case.

I'm saying, if the tiny rectangular port in which you plug the dongles into are the SAME size on the new & old systems, this could possibly work...do we have confirmation the actual output ports are a different size?

I can't comment on the pinouts inside, but the connector on the new Powerbook definitely appears identical to the one on the old Powerbook. Same form factor, appears interchangeable.

Now, I also doubt that plugging in a new dongle will give you DVI, but please folks, the whole "mini-VGA" vs "mini-DVI" argument doesn't apply, unless someone has the pinouts of the two ports.

Luca Rescigno · Sep 16, 2003, 03:30 PM

Can anyone make heads or tails of this? That link is the official developer's documentation about the specifications of the older 12" PowerBook, specifically the video-out port.

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 03:31 PM

Right...the only reason Apple would be *calling* it "mini-DVI-out" is because they're including a DVI-out dongle w/ it now...if the previous ports are the same size, I'm betting the power to output to DVI lies within the DONGLE, *not* the PB itself. Of course, this is wishful thinking, but I'm about to shell out $19 to find out.

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Can anyone make heads or tails of this? That link is the official developer's documentation about the specifications of the older 12" PowerBook, specifically the video-out port.

Ahh, nice find...now, is there one of these for the NEW 12" PBs yet? A simply comparison can prove this theory almost definitely right or wrong.

Luca Rescigno · Sep 16, 2003, 03:46 PM

The full list is here: http://developer.apple.com/documenta...hardware2.html

They haven't added the newest PowerBooks yet. I think it usually takes something like a week for them to show up.

tooki · Sep 16, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Right...the only reason Apple would be *calling* it "mini-DVI-out" is because they're including a DVI-out dongle w/ it now...if the previous ports are the same size, I'm betting the power to output to DVI lies within the DONGLE, *not* the PB itself. Of course, this is wishful thinking, but I'm about to shell out $19 to find out.

Waste of cash, if you ask me, since the adapter's specs list specifically that it requires a "September 2003" PowerBook.

I seriously doubt that the dongle is not responsible.

tooki

JustinD · Sep 16, 2003, 03:55 PM

Lordy lord. Given the fact that the video port on the NEW 12" PB looks a whooole lot different than the OLD 12" PB:

http://www.apple.com/powerbook/image...m_09162003.jpg

I'd say that NO, it's not the dongle that does the work.

JustinD · Sep 16, 2003, 03:57 PM

And FWIW, on the old 12" PBs, that is officially a mini-VGA port. Sony PictureBooks have had the same exact port for years - and are completely compatible with Apple's dongle (and vice versa)

Link · Sep 16, 2003, 05:06 PM

They're not. It's the exact same port but the pinout is different.

I'm guessing it's something like a 24 pin minijack, the internal pins used to be wired to VGA and SVideo, and are now wired to DVI-I (vga and DVI) instead of VGA only.

This means you can use a vga dongle on a new powerbook, but not a dvi dongle on an old one. The old one will not have the capability, remember they did change the video chip entirely.

chrisutley · Sep 16, 2003, 05:26 PM

Art Vandelay, you're just an architect, what the hell do you know about DVI, VGA, and what not?

sebaz · Sep 16, 2003, 06:03 PM

i would love to know if its possible or not, damn my one month old PB 12 in. could use an Apple Display right about now. What about USB 2.0 u think that these machines shipped with USB 2.0 but need a driver update (kinda the firmware update for the DVD-RW) ?

AssassyN · Sep 16, 2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by sebaz:
i would love to know if its possible or not, damn my one month old PB 12 in. could use an Apple Display right about now. What about USB 2.0 u think that these machines shipped with USB 2.0 but need a driver update (kinda the firmware update for the DVD-RW) ?

This will be very interesting to know...it may not happen until someone w/ a new 12" PB lends their dongle to a friend w/ an old one to find out. And it's been speculated that USB 2.0 is simply a software issue and COULD be introduced to the old machines with a newer version of OS X...we'll see.

Graymalkin · Sep 16, 2003, 06:37 PM

The mini-VGA port on the 12" Powerbook has 14 pins. A DVI-I (integrated analog and digital) port has either 18 or 24 pins. If the DVI-I port has 18 pins it is a single link port which means it only has a single 165MHz video channel allowing for a 1920x1080@60Hz video signal. A 24 pin DVI-I cable has two 165MHz video channels allowing for a 2048x1536@60Hz LCD pnael to be driven. The mini-VGA port of the Jan '03 12" Powerbook doesn't have enough pins to drive a DVI-I signal but it might be possible to make a VGA-DVI converter that will plug into the mini-VGA port on the Powerbook. There are VGA/DVI-I converter boxes but they cost about $300.

I really doubt the new mini-DVI dingle is going to be compatible with the port on the older 12" Powerbooks. There's no DVI signal coming out of the port so a conversion would need to be done and the electronics to do that aren't small or necessarily cheap. The VGA dongle for the older 12" is converts the mini-VGA wiring to a 15-pin VGA pinout.

ibook_steve · Sep 16, 2003, 06:54 PM

OK, this is getting ridiculous. DVI does not just "happen" inside a dongle. Converting analog RGB to digital using something from Dr. Bott is the only way that would happen and I'm sure the quality would not be good. The signals must be output directly from the graphics chip to a connector large enough to accomodate the extra signals. VGA has basically 5 signals: R, G, B, hsync, and vsync. DVI-I has all of those (for outputting analog video using a DVI to VGA dongle like on the towers) plus 4 differential pairs (8 more signals plus at least 4 more ground returns; total at least 12 extra pins) that carry the digital signal. There is no way that the new 12" Powerbooks could use the same connector for DVI as the old 12" Powerbooks because the old connector only has 14 pins. Therefore, there is no way that you can even plug the new mini-DVI to DVI dongle into the old 12" Powerbook. Therefore, there is *no way* to get DVI on the old 12" Powerbook using the new mini-DVI to DVI dongle.

Q.E.D.

Steve

ibook_steve · Sep 16, 2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by sebaz:
i would love to know if its possible or not, damn my one month old PB 12 in. could use an Apple Display right about now. What about USB 2.0 u think that these machines shipped with USB 2.0 but need a driver update (kinda the firmware update for the DVD-RW) ?

USB 2 can't just happen with a new driver. The hardware for USB 1.1 and USB 2 is completely different.

I don't understand why so many people think that Apple likes to hide features on their products that can magically be enabled when something new comes along. Using a firmware update or Open Firmware commands from somebody on the Internet doesn't count. If Apple doesn't implement a feature you want on a machine, chances are the hardware is not there for it to happen, or there are other reasons why Apple didn't implement the feature. For example, faster DVD burning may not have been implemented with that drive because of the amount of coasters that were made in testing at 2x.

People should stop thinking that Apple is trying to handicap machines on purpose. It just doesn't make sense to do R&D on a feature, put it in the box, then simply turn it off.

Steve

Graymalkin · Sep 16, 2003, 07:26 PM

The USB2 idea spurned from the fact the USB chips in the MDD PowerMacs was a USB/2 controller. There was speculation a firmware upgrade or driver change would allow you to get a free USB2 port on their PowerMacs. The sinker on that plan was Apple was indeed using USB2 controllers but only using the USB1 pins. All the drivers in the world weren't going to make the MDDs have a USB2 port.

michaelb · Sep 16, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
OK, this is getting ridiculous. DVI does not just "happen" inside a dongle. ... Therefore, there is *no way* to get DVI on the old 12" Powerbook using the new mini-DVI to DVI dongle.

Well done - a very patient reply for a very stubborn questioner!

Reading this thread, this symbol comes to mind...

tooki · Sep 16, 2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by ibook_steve:
USB 2 can't just happen with a new driver. The hardware for USB 1.1 and USB 2 is completely different.
....

People should stop thinking that Apple is trying to handicap machines on purpose. It just doesn't make sense to do R&D on a feature, put it in the box, then simply turn it off.

Well, whether you think it makes sense or not, Apple has a history of doing that, including the current practice of limiting ALL its SuperDrives to writing DVD-R, even on drive mechanisms capable of also writing to DVD-RW, DVD+R, and DVD+RW. Apple actually had to invest extra R&D to remove those features!

It's also been done by hard drive manufacturers in the past, who simply "hid" part of a drive in firmware to create odd sizes.

They've also done it with software, removing preferences that clearly exist internally, since examining preference files shows other tags, and AppleScript has been able to make otherwise impossible changes to preferences, too. Remember the Dock? You used to have to hack it to put it on the left or right, but clearly the function was there, since it knew how to do it (it was just a preference file change).

I'm sure there are other examples, too.

tooki