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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Give Airbus 380 a wink! [JPEG orgy]

Give Airbus 380 a wink! [JPEG orgy] (Page 26)
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exca1ibur
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Jun 4, 2007, 04:23 PM
 
If it's been around for 40 years though, we have this thing called 'proven technology' though. Reliability is the most important thing in the air, wouldn't you agree? Not to say the A380 isn't reliable its, just it hasn't proven itself yet, thats all.
     
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Jun 4, 2007, 04:39 PM
 
By the same token, you should prefer any other competitor (e. g. the 777 or an Airbus) to the 787: it hasn't even flown yet. That's not a very fruitful argument.
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exca1ibur
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Jun 4, 2007, 04:45 PM
 
I didn't say say he shouldn't. I was stating just because it's 40 years old, doesn't mean grab the barf bag.
     
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Jun 4, 2007, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll View Post
Unlike all other aircraft where the doors open outwards, the DC-10's doors opened inwards.
Wouldn't an inwards opening door be more safe? That way the door is kept closed by the cabin pressure.
     
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Jun 6, 2007, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Wouldn't an inwards opening door be more safe? That way the door is kept closed by the cabin pressure.
Yes, oops, I got it the wrong way around. The DC10's cargo doors opened outwards.
     
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Jun 6, 2007, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
If it's been around for 40 years though, we have this thing called 'proven technology' though. Reliability is the most important thing in the air, wouldn't you agree? Not to say the A380 isn't reliable its, just it hasn't proven itself yet, thats all.
Hmmm, by that logic, a 1960 VW Beetle is safer than a 2007 VW Golf.

747's have crashed so it's not like they've proven to be flawless. And the A380 has already flown tens of thousands of miles so it's not like it hasn't proven itself. I guess it all depends on how long you wait to decide that a machine has proved itself well enough for you to use it. And then how many accidents you allow before you consider it unreliable. I trust the FAA to test commercial aircraft before they're put into service.
     
Buckaroo
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Jun 6, 2007, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Troll View Post
Hmmm, by that logic, a 1960 VW Beetle is safer than a 2007 VW Golf.

747's have crashed so it's not like they've proven to be flawless. And the A380 has already flown tens of thousands of miles so it's not like it hasn't proven itself. I guess it all depends on how long you wait to decide that a machine has proved itself well enough for you to use it. And then how many accidents you allow before you consider it unreliable. I trust the FAA to test commercial aircraft before they're put into service.
Tens of thousands of miles. Like ain't that nothing more than 2 or 3 trips across the atlantic, with NO paying passengers?

I believe the 747 has flown over 35 BILLION miles with over 3.5 billion people.
     
exca1ibur
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Jun 6, 2007, 11:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Tens of thousands of miles. Like ain't that nothing more than 2 or 3 trips across the atlantic, with NO paying passengers?

I believe the 747 has flown over 35 BILLION miles with over 3.5 billion people.
Thank you.
     
analogika
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Jun 6, 2007, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Tens of thousands of miles. Like ain't that nothing more than 2 or 3 trips across the atlantic, with NO paying passengers?

I believe the 747 has flown over 35 BILLION miles with over 3.5 billion people.
I thought the point about the VW Beetle being safer than a 2007 Golf was a pretty good one.
     
badidea
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Jun 6, 2007, 01:48 PM
 
I am still trying to figure out what a paying passenger has to do with safety?
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Buckaroo
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Jun 6, 2007, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I thought the point about the VW Beetle being safer than a 2007 Golf was a pretty good one.
The VW has been redesigned and improved many times since 1960. So has the 747. I'm referring to all the mechanical parts, systems etc.

That has always been a big selling point for the VW Bug over the years. They spent all their time improving the old design instead of trying to design a new body shape every 4 years.

I don't know much about the 2007 Golf, but if it is new for 2007, it'll be years before they work out all the bugs.

Sort of like OS X 10.00. How many people waited for a couple updates before they switched over.
     
Buckaroo
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Jun 6, 2007, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
I am still trying to figure out what a paying passenger has to do with safety?
Fully loaded plane vs. empty?
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 6, 2007, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Fully loaded plane vs. empty?
The A380 has had passengers, but they didn't pay for it. That's what he meant.
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badidea
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Jun 6, 2007, 04:09 PM
 
I think the next argument will be that there was no luggage!

But thanks for reminding us that we first need paying passengers before we manage to build a safe airplane!
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mrtew
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Jun 6, 2007, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
My response was in reference to mrtew's comment about beauty. NOT the design for function. You are right, it is better to standardize as much as possible, but I'd rather fly a 747 rather than a A380 any day. Well, that is if I was a pilot.
Yeah I agree that the 747 is more beautiful than the A380 (especially the 747SP) but I think the 380 is a close second. Those two make most other big jets look totally generic. I think maybe size matters. I sure can't wait to see the Dreamliner though.... is the design all done yet?

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badidea
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Jun 7, 2007, 10:40 AM
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the first Dreamliner be delivered next year? Isn't the first flight scheduled for June?
I sure hope that the design is all done!


edit: just checked my insider informations!
Begin Final Assembly - May '07
Rollout - July '07
First Flight - September '07
( Last edited by badidea; Jun 7, 2007 at 10:48 AM. )
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mduell
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Jun 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the first Dreamliner be delivered next year? Isn't the first flight scheduled for June?
I sure hope that the design is all done!

edit: just checked my insider informations!
Begin Final Assembly - May '07
Rollout - July '07
First Flight - September '07
Delivery/EIS is May '08.

One more delay and the 787 may EIS before the 380.
     
badidea
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Jun 12, 2007, 06:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Delivery/EIS is May '08.

One more delay and the 787 may EIS before the 380.
I don't think so! I just recieved pictures from the 787 assembly line...2 sections do NOT fit together!!!
I wonder what impact that will have and how long it takes until this is in the news...!

(and no, I won't post those pictures - I don't want to get into any trouble!)
( Last edited by badidea; Jun 12, 2007 at 06:43 AM. )
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mrtew
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Jun 12, 2007, 06:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
I don't think so! I just recieved pictures from the 787 assembly line...2 sections do NOT fit together!!!
I wonder what impact that will have and how long it takes until this is in the news...!

(and no, I won't post those pictures - I don't want to get into any trouble!)
Now you're being just as stupid as the idiot kids who laugh at your plane's problems.

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Jun 12, 2007, 06:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
That has always been a big selling point for the VW Bug over the years. They spent all their time improving the old design instead of trying to design a new body shape every 4 years.
Yes, a VW Beetle has proved to be a reasonably reliable car. It crashes and it breaks down and it has killed people but it is reasonable reliable. Similarly, the 747 is reasonably reliable. It too has crashed, has killed people but it has proven to be quite reliable. That was not the argument though. The argument was about safety. You tried to say that because a Beetle has been around for 50 years, it has proven that it is a safe car whereas the 2007 Golf V has not been around long enough to prove to be safe. That to me is a ludicrous thing to say. If it wasn't enough for me to read the specs of the Golf V and know it was safer, it's certainly enough for me to see the Golf V crash tested and know it's safer than a Beetle. Similarly, I can read the specs for the A380 and watch the tests and know with reasonable confidence that it is safe.

In terms of passive safety, the Beetle handles worse, it brakes worse, it accelerates worse. In terms of active safety, it has no airbags, no ABS, no side impact protection bars, no active head restraints, no pre-tensioning seatbelts, no real crumple zones ... none of the stuff that only became possible with newer materials and parts long after the Beetle was designed. In short, I think that most people who are looking for a safe car will take pretty much anything built in 2007 over a VW Beetle.

And the same applies if you look at comfort and economy and service intervals. All of this applies to the A380/747 comparison too. There's a lot that has been modified on the 747, but it remains a 50 year old design. On top of that, a lot of the 747's you're likely to fly in are decades old with bits that may have been stressed or rusted etc.
     
badidea
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Jun 12, 2007, 06:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
Now you're being just as stupid as the idiot kids who laugh at your plane's problems.
Ok, if it makes you feel any better, I edited out the laughing smilie!
I still would fly with Boeing (and the 787) any time!
I also don't think that this is Boeings but some suppliers fault!
I just don't understand why they didn't find this error before the production of the parts - it's not minor! The outer structural shells do not fit!!
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voodoo
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Jun 12, 2007, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
I don't think so! I just recieved pictures from the 787 assembly line...2 sections do NOT fit together!!!
I wonder what impact that will have and how long it takes until this is in the news...!

(and no, I won't post those pictures - I don't want to get into any trouble!)
Well rumor has it there will be a 6 month delay on 787 EIS. This might explain it.

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mduell
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Jun 12, 2007, 03:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
I don't think so! I just recieved pictures from the 787 assembly line...2 sections do NOT fit together!!!
I wonder what impact that will have and how long it takes until this is in the news...!

(and no, I won't post those pictures - I don't want to get into any trouble!)
No impact and it won't make the news.

Originally Posted by badidea View Post
Ok, if it makes you feel any better, I edited out the laughing smilie!
I still would fly with Boeing (and the 787) any time!
I also don't think that this is Boeings but some suppliers fault!
I just don't understand why they didn't find this error before the production of the parts - it's not minor! The outer structural shells do not fit!!
At this point you're just spewing and trolling. Either post the proof or a link to a credible source.

     
Art Vandelay
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Jun 12, 2007, 06:42 PM
 
It made it to the Seattle Times site here today.

Business & Technology | Boeing finds 787 pieces aren't quite a perfect fit | Seattle Times Newspaper

Boeing says it's already fixed and analysts agree that this not a new occurrence with aircraft assembly nor is it a big deal.
Vandelay Industries
     
voodoo
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Jun 12, 2007, 07:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
No impact and it won't make the news.



At this point you're just spewing and trolling. Either post the proof or a link to a credible source.

Sorry but the grapevine says there will be a delay in 787 EIS. That rumor has been widely confirmed on the un-official level throughout the aircraft industry. Watch it happen.

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analogika
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Jun 13, 2007, 04:20 AM
 
     
badidea
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Jun 13, 2007, 04:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
No impact and it won't make the news.
Wrong (I'm a professional) and wrong (as already proven)!

At this point you're just spewing and trolling. Either post the proof or a link to a credible source.

Spewing and trolling?????????
I'm not the one who brought the 787 crap in the A380 thread!


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mduell
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Jun 13, 2007, 02:21 PM
 
A quarter inch on a 200+ inch diameter

As Boeing said, they've already resolved it.
     
voodoo
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Jun 13, 2007, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
A quarter inch on a 200+ inch diameter

As Boeing said, they've already resolved it.
Hehe nothing amuses me more than a besserwisser in defense.

Boeing is saving face and trying to keep appearances strong before they announce the delay later this summer.

V
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badidea
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Jun 13, 2007, 05:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
A quarter inch on a 200+ inch diameter
If you don't know what precision means that's ok!
Airbus and Boeing do know what precision means! That's NOT a minor problem!
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Jun 13, 2007, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Hehe nothing amuses me more than a besserwisser in defense.
Is besserwisser actually an English word?
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voodoo
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Jun 13, 2007, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Is besserwisser actually an English word?
It is now!

V
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mduell
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Jun 14, 2007, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
If you don't know what precision means that's ok!
Airbus and Boeing do know what precision means! That's NOT a minor problem!
On a gear or some other solid part, it would be a huge deal.
But on a thin-walled tube? Not a big deal at all.

As Boeing said, they've already resolved it. Sorry haters, no 6 month delay there.
     
mrtew
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Jun 14, 2007, 08:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
On a gear or some other solid part, it would be a huge deal.
But on a thin-walled tube? Not a big deal at all.
It'd be a HUGE deal if it was on an AirBus though eh?

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voodoo
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Jun 15, 2007, 12:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
It'd be a HUGE deal if it was on an AirBus though eh?
He'd be frothing at the mouth in glee.

V
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badidea
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Jun 15, 2007, 04:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
On a gear or some other solid part, it would be a huge deal.
But on a thin-walled tube? Not a big deal at all.

As Boeing said, they've already resolved it.
Since you seem to know so much about that issue can you also tell me how Boeing solved the problem?
Or do you think they just forced the parts together and didn't care about buckling?!?
I'm glad you don't work for Boeing or otherwise I'd really care about the quality of their airplanes!
Sorry haters, no 6 month delay there.
Haters??? Who here hates Boeing?
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Jun 15, 2007, 11:56 PM
 
Personally I love Boeing airplanes, especially the B757-200. What a plane.

YouTube - Boeing 757 Short Field Takeoff at Reykavik

V
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exca1ibur
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Jun 16, 2007, 02:54 PM
 
Nice takeoff.

BTW: When did they make a version with winglets? I've never seen one before on a 757, mostly on the 737-7+ and 747-4.
     
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exca1ibur: The 757 blended winglets are a recent development from APB.

Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
It'd be a HUGE deal if it was on an AirBus though eh?
Why? Minor fit issues with the first frame aren't a big deal for anyone when they're resolved within days (or hours? I don't think anyone outside Boeing knows the timeframe for the problem discovery and fix).

Originally Posted by badidea View Post
Since you seem to know so much about that issue can you also tell me how Boeing solved the problem?
Or do you think they just forced the parts together and didn't care about buckling?!?
I'm glad you don't work for Boeing or otherwise I'd really care about the quality of their airplanes!
I only know what I read in the press.
But I do know that Boeing knows a lot more about building aircraft than you do.
     
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Jun 16, 2007, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
But I do know that Boeing knows a lot more about building aircraft than you do.
badidea is an engineer working at Airbus, so he's one of if not the person who knows the most about building aircraft on this forum.
     
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
A quarter inch on a 200+ inch diameter

As Boeing said, they've already resolved it.
It was a problem with Kawasaki stuffing section 41 causing an out of round condition. Thing were undone, repositioned and refastened. Every other section has fit perfectly.

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Jun 16, 2007, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
badidea is an engineer working at Airbus, so he's one of if not the person who knows the most about building aircraft on this forum.
So was he using CATIA V5 or V4 on the 380?
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
On a gear or some other solid part, it would be a huge deal.
But on a thin-walled tube? Not a big deal at all.

As Boeing said, they've already resolved it. Sorry haters, no 6 month delay there.
First Flight will be 9/07. EIS will be on time. 2nd line opening in 2009 at 1,000 orders reached. A350 EIS extended to 2015 due to internal disagreements.
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
If you don't know what precision means that's ok!
Airbus and Boeing do know what precision means! That's NOT a minor problem!
ROFLMAO. Like designing half the 380 with CATIA V4 and half with V5 and missing the conversions. Please don't compair engineering at Boeing with Airbus.
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Sorry but the grapevine says there will be a delay in 787 EIS. That rumor has been widely confirmed on the un-official level throughout the aircraft industry. Watch it happen.

V
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badidea
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Why? Minor fit issues with the first frame aren't a big deal for anyone when they're resolved within days (or hours? I don't think anyone outside Boeing knows the timeframe for the problem discovery and fix).
Well, other people who build airplanes know the timeframe for a problem like this! High quality means rebuilding the shell and reattach all the internal structure, brackets, mechanical systems, electricity...that's done in days...a lot of days!!
I expect Boeing to do high quality work!


I only know what I read in the press.
But I do know that Boeing knows a lot more about building aircraft than you do.
I sure hope so that the entire company Boeing knows more than I do and I'm sure they do!
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glideslope
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
By the same token, you should prefer any other competitor (e. g. the 777 or an Airbus) to the 787: it hasn't even flown yet. That's not a very fruitful argument.
For God sake the 380 does not even have it production Cert yet. Each plane is hand certified 2.5 years after EIS.
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glideslope
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
Well, other people who build airplanes know the timeframe for a problem like this! High quality means rebuilding the shell and reattach all the internal structure, brackets, mechanical systems, electricity...that's done in days...a lot of days!!
I expect Boeing to do high quality work!



I sure hope so that the entire company Boeing knows more than I do and I'm sure they do!
Actually it took 3 days, and Kawasaki is aware of what needs revision on section41 #2. If you were worh it you would be working for Boeing, as some of your former co-workers are now.
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Jun 16, 2007, 06:40 PM
 
I'm done. See you in a few weeks.
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Jun 16, 2007, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by glideslope View Post
You drink the wrong wine.
Ya well, at least I don't drink the kool-aid, like the Boeing fanatics

V
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