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alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 12:44 PM

Will panther allow the user to MOVE files from one location to another by doing a CUT (Command V) and PASTE (Command C).

Jag allows Copy via Copy paste but not Move. I love the move feature in windows and wish it would show up in OSX.

Developer · Aug 4, 2003, 12:53 PM

The clipboard metaphor doesn't work for files. Copy is bad enough, I hope move won't be possible. People would lose their files.

gorickey · Aug 4, 2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
The clipboard metaphor doesn't work for files. Copy is bad enough, I hope move won't be possible. People would lose their files.

Amen.

alexforsythe24 · 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
The clipboard metaphor doesn't work for files. Copy is bad enough, I hope move won't be possible. People would lose their files.

I don't see why you say the metaphore doesn't work.
I do it all the time when I have to use a windows machine and it one of the features I actually love on the Wintel-PC side. Haven't lost a file yet. (knock on wood) It'd just be nice to have it as an option for those of us who seem comfortable with the metaphore and are willing to take the supposed risk. Make it an off by default option if you're really worried about users accidently losing flies.

Oh, and are you confirming it's not in Panther at this point ??

Diggory Laycock · Aug 4, 2003, 01:20 PM

Cutting a file is a destructive action - cut (or copy) something else and you've lost the original file.

That's why it's not there.

I can easily imagine a user selecting all of their home directory and accidentally pressing command-x.

They wouldn't understand where their stuff went.

gorgonzola · Aug 4, 2003, 01:24 PM

I doubt they'll ever put this in.

OptimusG4 · Aug 4, 2003, 01:25 PM

Actually in Windows, when you select cut, it just dims the icon and doesn't actually remove it until you select paste. I hit cut once on a zip disk and then ejected it, put it back in the drive, and the file was still there.

alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by OptimusG4:
Actually in Windows, when you select cut, it just dims the icon and doesn't actually remove it until you select paste. I hit cut once on a zip disk and then ejected it, put it back in the drive, and the file was still there.

Very good point .. just tried it and in windows there is no actual change to the disk until the Paste is done!

Busemann · Aug 4, 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
Will panther allow the user to MOVE files from one location to another by doing a CUT (Command V) and PASTE (Command C).

Jag allows Copy via Copy paste but not Move. I love the move feature in windows and wish it would show up in OSX.

You're not dissing our belowed drag & drop are you?

Developer · Aug 4, 2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
I don't see why you say the metaphore doesn't work.

It is either very dangerous:

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
I can easily imagine a user selecting all of their home directory and accidentally pressing command-x.

or if implemented safer:

Originally posted by OptimusG4:
Actually in Windows, when you select cut, it just dims the icon and doesn't actually remove it until you select paste. I hit cut once on a zip disk and then ejected it, put it back in the drive, and the file was still there.

It behaves unlike any other copy/cut-paste operation. Now (the rule here is "if it doesn't look like a duck and doesn't quack like a duck, don't call it a duck.") this would be fine if it would be called "Collect items for move"/"Place collected items", but it sure doesn't fit the clipboard metaphor any more.

Also, and this is why already Copy of files in OS X breaks the clipboard metaphor, notice that Copy places a copy of the selection into the clipboard in the state of the time the Copy command was issued. Let's say you select the word "Steve" and copy it, then change that word to "Bill", you still expect the Paste command to paste the word "Steve" since that's the word you copied. Not so with files. If you copy a text file with the word "Steve", open the file, change the word to "Bill", save, then paste this file, you will paste files containing the word "Bill". Not what you copied. The metaphor is broken.

A much better way to copy/move files with using one window only would be a NeXT like Shelf. I assume removing a shortcut on the new left part of the new Finder just removes that file out of this shortcut part, but using a modifier key it could also be used as a shelf. Let's say command-drag for copying and command-option-drag for moving the file to a new destination.
Avoids all the problems with forcing moving files into the clipboard metaphor.

alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
It is either very dangerous:
or if implemented safer:
It behaves unlike any other copy/cut-paste operation. Now (the rule here is "if it doesn't look like a duck and doesn't quack like a duck, don't call it a duck.") this would be fine if it would be called "Collect items for move"/"Place collected items", but it sure doesn't fit the clipboard metaphor any more.

Also, and this is why already Copy of files in OS X breaks the clipboard metaphor, notice that Copy places a copy of the selection into the clipboard in the state of the time the Copy command was issued. Let's say you select the word "Steve" and copy it, then change that word to "Bill", you still expect the Paste command to paste the word "Steve" since that's the word you copied. Not so with files. If you copy a text file with the word "Steve", open the file, change the word to "Bill", save, then paste this file, you will paste files containing the word "Bill". Not what you copied. The metaphor is broken.

A much better way to copy/move files with using one window only would be a NeXT like Shelf. I assume removing a shortcut on the new left part of the new Finder just removes that file out of this shortcut part, but using a modifier key it could also be used as a shelf. Let's say command-drag for copying and command-option-drag for moving the file to a new destination.
Avoids all the problems with forcing moving files into the clipboard metaphor.

Call it what you want ... I just want to be able to select and move files in the finder without dragging and dropping.

I'm not here for a holy war .. I just want a single feature which seems pretty darn productive to come to my OS of choice.

alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Busemann:
You're not dissing our belowed drag & drop are you?

not at all .. just like work a little differently sometimes.

exa · Aug 4, 2003, 03:55 PM

Really, does it matter if it breaks the clipboard metaphor? I'm sure Finder/Mac OS X breaks a billion other things too (<cough> BRUSHED METAL </cough>), and I certainly want this cut/paste feature.

Drag and drop via spring loaded folders requires too much mouse control to get it right...

BGK · Aug 4, 2003, 04:48 PM

apple drag and drop. moves.
option drag and drop. copies.

done.

sushiism · Aug 4, 2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by OptimusG4:
Actually in Windows, when you select cut, it just dims the icon and doesn't actually remove it until you select paste. I hit cut once on a zip disk and then ejected it, put it back in the drive, and the file was still there.

well thats not really cutting the file is it?
See even this way is broken

sushiism · Aug 4, 2003, 05:00 PM

oh and windows introduced the "move to" toolbar button in windows 2000 so clearly the cut/paste way of moving introduced in 95 wasnt working well

alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by BGK:
apple drag and drop. moves.
option drag and drop. copies.

done.

Did we miss the part about

"I just want to be able to select and move files in the finder without dragging and dropping."

alexforsythe24 · 06:09 PM

Originally posted by sushiism:
oh and windows introduced the "move to" toolbar button in windows 2000 so clearly the cut/paste way of moving introduced in 95 wasnt working well

I believe it was actually introduced in NT4 and not implemented in the consumer version of windows until ME, but I maybe be wrong... It certainly is in Windows 2000 ...but it doesn't matter and I prefer to avoid those OSs if possible.

People ... I don't care what you name it, I don't care where it came from or when, I don't care if you want to ignore it if it exists.

My point was that copying files to location via a keyboard short cut was introduced in Jaguar, I'd love to see moving files via a keyboard short cut implemented as well.

As un-Mac as it is, I like using the keyboard instead of the mouse sometimes and I'm sure there are a bunch of other Mac users who would agree.

sushiism · Aug 4, 2003, 06:15 PM

what the cut thing or the move to thing? cutting files has been there since 95, the move to thing appeared in 2000 or nt4 whatever

alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by sushiism:
what the cut thing or the move to thing? cutting files has been there since 95, the move to thing appeared in 2000 or nt4 whatever

The Feature I've been discribing ... (using control x and control v to move files).
It was not in 95 .. wasn't in 98 ...
Was in NT4 .. IS in 2000 .. that's all I know for sure, but again.. Who cares. It's a nice feature.

voodoo · Aug 4, 2003, 06:24 PM

ugh I hate that feature.

it doesn't make sense to me to use the clipboard metaphore on files.

maybe in CLI but not in GUI.

sushiism · Aug 4, 2003, 06:30 PM

hmm well i remeber cutting and pasting files in 95 and esp 98 because i was supprised that it was actually able to make them semi trans (even though i think it was faked cos the os clearly didnt have alpha) dont know if control x/v did it but you def could in the menu/toolbar

http://www.functionx.com/screenshots...8explorer2.jpg

windows 98, notice the cut and paste on the toolbar

http://medweb.uni-muenster.de/projec...a/explorer.gif

windows 95 notice again the cut and paste

alexforsythe24 · Aug 4, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by sushiism:
hmm well i remeber cutting and pasting files in 95 and esp 98 because i was supprised that it was actually able to make them semi trans (even though i think it was faked cos the os clearly didnt have alpha) dont know if control x/v did it but you def could in the menu/toolbar

http://www.functionx.com/screenshots...8explorer2.jpg

windows 98, notice the cut and paste on the toolbar

http://medweb.uni-muenster.de/projec...a/explorer.gif

windows 95 notice again the cut and paste

Maybe via the toolbar but I'm almost positive not via control x/v .. and again .. I want NO MOUSE CLICKS!

Brass · Aug 4, 2003, 06:56 PM

No Cut & Paste with files doesn't fit the clipboard metaphor.

Yes, when implemented it would either be dangerous, or break the metaphor.

I agree.

However, that does not mean it would not be a useful feature. It would work very nicely if implemented safely.

And if the metaphor is that important, there's no reason why they couldn't change the command titles in the menus for files (and even the keyboard shortcuts, if people still think it would be dangerous), so long as the feature is available for those who would want to use it.

Eg, Instead of Cut and Paste, the commands could change to Gather and Place... or Move and Put. Or whatever.

TheTraveller · Aug 4, 2003, 07:31 PM

I've really always loved Window's use of "Cut and Copy" in the Explorer. OK fine it breaks whatever paradigm - but it's a very useful technique and I do wish that the "Cut" was present in OS X as well.

iJed · Aug 4, 2003, 07:35 PM

This feature would be make cut and paste in the finder either highly inconsistent or, like others have said, highly dangerous. I for one would rather not have this feature for either of these reasons. I just hope that Apple is not pressurised into breaking the Shneiderman's first rule of UI design and implementing this feature.

chabig · Aug 4, 2003, 08:25 PM

I just want to be able to select and move files in the finder without dragging and dropping.

If you don't want to drag and drop, the terminal works just fine.

LightWaver-67 · Aug 4, 2003, 08:29 PM

I hate to admit it... but it's a feature I use ALL the time at work. They are primarilly Macs... but in the area that I work, there are 3 PeeCees that I need to use to get my work done. I am CONSTANTLY using the Copy/Paste feature for files and groups of files.

I find it VERY handy... regardless of whatever paradigm you may feel it is breaking.

just my 2-cents

alex_kac · Aug 4, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
I believe it was actually introduced in NT4 and not implemented in the consumer version of windows until ME, but I maybe be wrong... It certainly is in Windows 2000 ...but it doesn't matter and I prefer to avoid those OSs if possible.

People ... I don't care what you name it, I don't care where it came from or when, I don't care if you want to ignore it if it exists.

My point was that copying files to location via a keyboard short cut was introduced in Jaguar, I'd love to see moving files via a keyboard short cut implemented as well.

As un-Mac as it is, I like using the keyboard instead of the mouse sometimes and I'm sure there are a bunch of other Mac users who would agree.

Amen. I have been wanting this for ever. I just don't care for drag and drop for file management. Most of the time.

alex_kac · Aug 4, 2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by iJed:
This feature would be make cut and paste in the finder either highly inconsistent or, like others have said, highly dangerous. I for one would rather not have this feature for either of these reasons. I just hope that Apple is not pressurised into breaking the Shneiderman's first rule of UI design and implementing this feature.

Yes. Lets not make people productive. That would break the rules.

You know, if it really bothers you that much - let Apple give us this very needed productivity tool and you can just ignore it.

alex_kac · Aug 4, 2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by chabig:
If you don't want to drag and drop, the terminal works just fine.

Lets see....a two key command over launching another whole app, then typing out the full paths, etc... yeah.

Really. Morons. Its a badly needed productivity tool and its morons like you who would have kept Apple in System 6 land where even popup menus of all things weren't standard.

voodoo · Aug 4, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Brass:
No Cut & Paste with files doesn't fit the clipboard metaphor.

Yes, when implemented it would either be dangerous, or break the metaphor.

I agree.

However, that does not mean it would not be a useful feature. It would work very nicely if implemented safely.

And if the metaphor is that important, there's no reason why they couldn't change the command titles in the menus for files (and even the keyboard shortcuts, if people still think it would be dangerous), so long as the feature is available for those who would want to use it.

Eg, Instead of Cut and Paste, the commands could change to Gather and Place... or Move and Put. Or whatever.

sushiism · Aug 4, 2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
Maybe via the toolbar but I'm almost positive not via control x/v .. and again .. I want NO MOUSE CLICKS!

hmm i doubt it i mean christ i dont seriously think they're stupid enough to make cut/copy/paste toolbar buttons without adding the shortcut keys too

and OHMYGOSH
http://www.winplanet.com/winplanet/tutorials/500/3/
how right i was, thus backing up my theory that this cut/paste idea was so shoddy they had to add the move to button in windows 2000 or NT4 or whatever

plus why the heck cant you just copy, then the shortcut to move to trash cmd backspace isnt it? or hell why dont you write an applescript to do it for you, i assume you can do that

chabig · Aug 4, 2003, 09:49 PM

its morons like you who would have kept Apple in System 6 land where even popup menus of all things weren't standard

That was harsh. But seriously, even if you use cut (copy) and paste, you still have to have both the source and destination windows open. So why not drag?

Chris

blackbird_1.0 · Aug 4, 2003, 10:38 PM

how about this idea...

opt-click on file

select move file...

then go to your new location

select move here... (changes from "move file" to "move here" like copy changes to paste)

someone ought to make a context menu plugin for this...

Brass · Aug 4, 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by chabig:
even if you use cut (copy) and paste, you still have to have both the source and destination windows open. So why not drag?

Chris

No you don't. that's it's advantage over drag and drop. Only one window required to be open at a time. Using column view, that means only one window required at all.

ApeInTheShell · Aug 5, 2003, 12:31 AM

Lazy. Another side effect of Windows Users.

Drag and drop and terminal do an efficient job and each are for seperate users.
Apple should accomadate the user but not add every feature from the Windows world. Some of them do not make sense.
I disagree with your post for this feature but also think it could be in Panther if you demand it from Apple.

alexforsythe24 · 01:52 AM

Originally posted by ApeInTheShell:
Lazy. Another side effect of Windows Users.

Drag and drop and terminal do an efficient job and each are for separate users.
Apple should accommodate the user but not add every feature from the Windows world. Some of them do not make sense.
I disagree with your post for this feature but also think it could be in Panther if you demand it from Apple.

LOL .. this kills me .. it really does ..
Now when people suggest a more efficient means of working we're "Lazy"

Perhaps we're all lazy .. bookmarks, snapback, aliases (dig for that file you lazy

) Hell, lets get rid of the dock, the apple menu ... we should all have to WORK for our UI. Why should we have a search function for that matter ... if you can't remember where you put the file you don't deserve to find it.

Maybe it's just me, but I though the reason we became mac users was to avoid fighting with our computers.

GET OVER YOURSELVES .. I've been a mac user as long as I've used computers .. this has nothing to do with being an occasional windows user. It's got to do with a method of moving files that, for me, has worked very well and I think might benefit others if it were implemented in Panther.

I never though this would start such a debate.

alexforsythe24 · Aug 5, 2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by sushiism:
hmm i doubt it i mean christ i dont seriously think they're stupid enough to make cut/copy/paste toolbar buttons without adding the shortcut keys too

and OHMYGOSH
http://www.winplanet.com/winplanet/tutorials/500/3/
how right i was, thus backing up my theory that this cut/paste idea was so shoddy they had to add the move to button in windows 2000 or NT4 or whatever

plus why the heck cant you just copy, then the shortcut to move to trash cmd backspace isnt it? or hell why dont you write an applescript to do it for you, i assume you can do that

I stand corrected!

But perhaps the reason icons were added to the toolbar was to make more people aware this wonderful feature was available.

ckohler · 03:19 AM

Some of you say drag and drop is the best way to go but consider this: There are LOTS of times where I am moving files between two newly created directories. These directories don't appear in my "favorites" or "recent places" lists or as a shortcut on a Finder toolbar.

To complete this task I have to open a whole new Finder window for the destination folder to drag and drop between.[list=1][*]Select files.[*]Open new Finder window.[*]Position window to allow dragging.[*]Browse to the destination folder within new window.[*]Drag selected files over.[*]Close second window.[/list=1] Six steps. Another option is to copy and paste the files, then return to the original spot using the same window and delete them.[list=1][*]Select files.[*]Copy.[*]Browse to destination folder.[*]Paste.[*]Browse back to original folder.[*]Select files again.[*]Delete.[/list=1] That's worse.. seven steps!

Now, lets look at cut and pasting the files. Again, keeping in mind that "cutting" a file or whatever takes no action on the files until pasting occurs.[list=1][*]Select files.[*]Cut.[*]Browse to destination folder.[*]Paste.[/list=1]That's only four steps using only one window. Sounds like a winner to me.

Diggory Laycock · Aug 5, 2003, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by ckohler:
There are LOTS of times where I am moving files between two newly created directories. These directories don't appear in my "favorites" or "recent places" lists or as a shortcut on a Finder toolbar. .... <SNIP>

why not drag to any directory/disc on the desktop = then you can use spring-loaded folders to drill through folders - And use your finder toolbar items to speed-up the drill-down process - how deep can the file be?

sushiism · Aug 5, 2003, 07:31 AM

"Lazy. Another side effect of Windows Users."
"Now when people suggest a more efficient means of working we're "Lazy""

the thing is, this cut/paste thing doesnt actually mean less effort, the lazy solution would be spring loaded folders because:

cut/paste:
+select file
+cut via menu/toolbar/context menu or shortcut haha
+browse to destination directory, either by a new window or your current
+paste via menu/context menu/shortcut/toolbar

spring loaded love:
+drag file
+find destination
+let go, with modifyer if desired

I bet I could do spring loaded much much faster than someone could do cut/paste, if you know your icons then you can do it extremely fast

as for ckohler, i would have said spring loaded if
Diggory didnt beat me to it

stevenhaddon · Aug 5, 2003, 07:31 AM

All the alternatives suggested require a lot of mouse control. I don't know about you, but I prefer to hold on to the mouse button as little as possible.

I know plenty of users whose knowledge of Windows isn't that advanced, but who are happy to use cut and paste of files. There's adhering to a paradigm, and there's pedantry. I think that a lot of objection to this feature crosses over into pedantry.

Steve

BGK · Aug 5, 2003, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
Did we miss the part about

"I just want to be able to select and move files in the finder without dragging and dropping."

yes, we did... what is wrong with we?!

alexforsythe24 · Aug 5, 2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by BGK:
yes, we did... what is wrong with we?!

All in good fun

alexforsythe24 · Aug 5, 2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by ckohler:
Some of you say drag and drop is the best way to go but consider this: There are LOTS of times where I am moving files between two newly created directories. These directories don't appear in my "favorites" or "recent places" lists or as a shortcut on a Finder toolbar.

To complete this task I have to open a whole new Finder window for the destination folder to drag and drop between.[list=1][*]Select files.[*]Open new Finder window.[*]Position window to allow dragging.[*]Browse to the destination folder within new window.[*]Drag selected files over.[*]Close second window.[/list=1] Six steps. Another option is to copy and paste the files, then return to the original spot using the same window and delete them.[list=1][*]Select files.[*]Copy.[*]Browse to destination folder.[*]Paste.[*]Browse back to original folder.[*]Select files again.[*]Delete.[/list=1] That's worse.. seven steps!

Now, lets look at cut and pasting the files. Again, keeping in mind that "cutting" a file or whatever takes no action on the files until pasting occurs.[list=1][*]Select files.[*]Cut.[*]Browse to destination folder.[*]Paste.[/list=1]That's only four steps using only one window. Sounds like a winner to me.

My point, exactly! And just like any keyboard short cut, if you don't like it, don't bother with it.

sushiism · Aug 5, 2003, 08:39 AM

"All the alternatives suggested require a lot of mouse control. "
what about my suggestion of doing copy->move to trash->find folder->paste?
or doing an apple script to automate the copy/move to trash part?

King Bob On The Cob · Aug 5, 2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by ckohler:

Position window to allow dragging.

Are you running 800x600?

alexforsythe24 · Aug 5, 2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by sushiism:
"All the alternatives suggested require a lot of mouse control. "
what about my suggestion of doing copy->move to trash->find folder->paste?
or doing an apple script to automate the copy/move to trash part?

Doesn't work .. try it! Paste doesn't like the file being in the trash.

If you wanna write me an apple script I'd love to use it until this wonderful feature shows up in Panther

Simon · Aug 5, 2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
Doesn't work .. try it! Paste doesn't like the file being in the trash.

If you wanna write me an apple script I'd love to use it until this wonderful feature shows up in Panther

I'd like to second your request.

[rant]
I absolutely hate the way this discussion is running. Instead of a simple "yes" or "no" or "I'll program that and post it here for a free download" a ton of stupid pricks enters and starts bashing the idea with a tone that was only exceeded by Stalin himself.

WTF? Have you gone nuts?

The guy asked a simple question. If he wanted to hear you bitch and moan about bad metaphores or if he cared to hear your Stalin-like persuasion speaches he would have asked for it. But he didn't. Maybe because he didn't give a rat's ass.

So, yes it is a bad metaphore. And no, I don't like the way MS implements it in Win. But hell, I hate having to open two column view windows to do something in 30 seconds that I could much more easily do in five seconds. And I could damn care less if Steve thinks I should waste my time just so that I do it his way.

Therefore, I'd say the original poster has a point and he is damn well entitled to get a decent answer w/o the stupid ideology debate. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you like imitating Stalin, do it somewhere else.

[/rant]

Now, can anybody confirm if Panther has a feature like this or not?