[jsnyder]

I've been an atheist for some time, and wouldn't have even considered any religion of any sort prior to some changes that have taken place recently. I'd mostly attribute this long bout of atheism to private Catholic schools :-)

In any case, recently I've started reading up on Wicca and like it quite a bit. It all seems much more holistic and balanced than things I've encountered before. The macgickal stuff bugged me at first, but after reading a bit, I feel I can ascribe to the Jungian explanations of how things work.

So, are there any other Mac using Wiccans out there? An inquiring mind wants to know :-)

[christ]

Does Willow count?

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by christ:
Does Willow count?

Unfortunately, no.

I'm serious here, folks. Any out there?

[christ]

Originally posted by jsnyder:
I'm serious here, folks.

?

Serious? You're looking for witches on a Mac Forum, for goodness sake. If you are serious, you would be better off looking on 'WiccaNN', or 'Witches Are Us', surely.

And you probably mean 'subscribe' not 'ascribe', but even better would be 'agree with', or 'understand'.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by christ:
?

Serious? You're looking for witches on a Mac Forum, for goodness sake. If you are serious, you would be better off looking on 'WiccaNN', or 'Witches Are Us', surely.

And you probably mean 'subscribe' not 'ascribe', but even better would be 'agree with', or 'understand'.

Why would I bother asking at a Wiccan site? I'd just get a slew of affirmatives.

"Yup", "Yep", "Sure am!" That wouldn't be any fun.

Much more interesting to see if there are any in a completely different group of people.

Sure, making it more general would probably have been better, but it is now said and done.

So, the question still stands, but if you're not a Witch and simply want to post your opinion, feel free.

I also realize that this isn't really a religious forum, but there's been discussion of religious topics before, so I figured why not?

[MindFad]

"Dieter doesn't care about anything. He's a nihilist."

"Ahh. That must be exhausting."

[iDriveX]

I don't know if I would call myself a Wiccan by name but I do believe that there is more to this plane of existence than what can be seen with the human eye. Ever since I've opened my eyes to the possibility to more, it has been enjoyable to sit back and watch Karma deal blow after blow (sometimes good, sometimes bad) to people and know what's going on. You just sit back, laugh a little and watch. It's very interesting.

This week has been especially tough for me as I have a family member dying of Pancreatic Cancer right now. I guess I had been looking a little sad at work lately, and this mormon girl put me into "The Moron Book of Prayers" without me asking to be put in there. She told me about it afterwards, and told me that the elders at her temple would be praying for me 3 times a day for 2 weeks straight. Since that time, very strange and positive things have been happening in my life. You'd probably have a better shot of winning in Vegas than doing the things I have done. Case in Point: The other day, I got a mailer from my employer touting the benefits of getting car insurance through them with a group discount. I have never had car insurance my entire life and forged car insurance for the past 7 years. I finally said "Ok I'll get car insurance" and I called them up. It was relatively cheap and they had issued me a policy by the end of the phone call with a policy number and everything. On the way home from work the next night, I was stopped in traffic on a street and I looked in my rear view mirror, I saw a woman barrelling down on me at 45 mph, I quickly turned my car towards the shoulder and she took off the entire rear end of my car. No one was hurt, but both cars were pretty well damaged. I'm in the middle of the claims process now but I couldn't believe the luck...Could this be a coincidence? Yes. Could it not be a coincidence? Yes as well.

[Superchicken]

I'm a little jaded to Wicca not because of the tenants of it or anything, but simply because every kid who felt out of place in my high school who wanted to feel there was something special about them seemed to turn to Wicca. I'm exaggerating a bit, but it seems like the cool trendy niche belief system. That said almost everyone I've ever met who got into Wicca eventually left it because it didn't satisfy them. It seems to be one that only hardcore pagans stick with, that's just my experience of course there are some that stick with it.

I also don't like the fact that in my experience most Wicca I've known have elevated the natural world to having a soul IE grass trees etc, on the same level as humans which I find kinda devaluing of human life. But again I really don't know how that translates into official Wiccan philosophy.

I've always found it a bit odd... it seems everyone in my school either went Buddhist or Wiccan often guys going buddhist girls going wiccan... and both eventually dropping both systems in a year or two.

[entrox]

Originally posted by jsnyder:
I also realize that this isn't really a religious forum, but there's been discussion of religious topics before, so I figured why not?

Heh, there's a certain irony in asking somebody whose user-name is 'christ' about whether there are any Pagans here

[quandarry]

i watched a program on tv once and it interested me...it sounded saner and more realist than any other religion.

any good links?

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by iDriveX:
I don't know if I would call myself a Wiccan by name but I do believe that there is more to this plane of existence than what can be seen with the human eye. Ever since I've opened my eyes to the possibility to more, it has been enjoyable to sit back and watch Karma deal blow after blow (sometimes good, sometimes bad) to people and know what's going on. You just sit back, laugh a little and watch. It's very interesting.

This week has been especially tough for me as I have a family member dying of Pancreatic Cancer right now. I guess I had been looking a little sad at work lately, and this mormon girl put me into "The Moron Book of Prayers" without me asking to be put in there. She told me about it afterwards, and told me that the elders at her temple would be praying for me 3 times a day for 2 weeks straight. Since that time, very strange and positive things have been happening in my life. You'd probably have a better shot of winning in Vegas than doing the things I have done. Case in Point: The other day, I got a mailer from my employer touting the benefits of getting car insurance through them with a group discount. I have never had car insurance my entire life and forged car insurance for the past 7 years. I finally said "Ok I'll get car insurance" and I called them up. It was relatively cheap and they had issued me a policy by the end of the phone call with a policy number and everything. On the way home from work the next night, I was stopped in traffic on a street and I looked in my rear view mirror, I saw a woman barrelling down on me at 45 mph, I quickly turned my car towards the shoulder and she took off the entire rear end of my car. No one was hurt, but both cars were pretty well damaged. I'm in the middle of the claims process now but I couldn't believe the luck...Could this be a coincidence? Yes. Could it not be a coincidence? Yes as well.

Yeah, many things like that could be boiled down to just being coincidence, but I guess, as of late, I'm willing to accept that there might be more. That doesn't mean that I'm willing to accept every anecdotal claim that is made about things natural or supernatural (depending upon your definition of natural, since people draw the line at different levels).

Honestly, I started feeling massively better after I started exploring a non-atheistic path. Even if you chalk that up to everything being in my head, who cares? At the end of the day, regardless of your view, I'm happier.

None of it can be proved in scientific terms, does that matter?

[iDriveX]

Originally posted by jsnyder:
Yeah, many things like that could be boiled down to just being coincidence, but I guess, as of late, I'm willing to accept that there might be more. That doesn't mean that I'm willing to accept every anecdotal claim that is made about things natural or supernatural (depending upon your definition of natural, since people draw the line at different levels).

Honestly, I started feeling massively better after I started exploring a non-atheistic path. Even if you chalk that up to everything being in my head, who cares? At the end of the day, regardless of your view, I'm happier.

None of it can be proved in scientific terms, does that matter?

I don't think it really matters. The only things that can be proven scientifically are scientific facts. These are obviously not scientific facts, science doesn't even account for coincidences.

I've never been an atheist but I was a very strong catholic believer at one point. Eventually I got sick of feeling guilty about everything I thought about and always asking for forgiveness. it doesn't make sense that a divine being would put us on a planet and infuse desire and desirous thoughts in our minds, only to condemn those thoughts and desires.

I have a mentor that once told me that there is no feeling in the world. Humans create feeling. If you took all of the humans out of the middle east. There would be no tension. Humans create and destroy tension in their own mind. If everyone in the middle east all of a sudden decided to stop creating tension. It would be a peaceful place. This was interesting to me. The same could be applied on a much smaller scale in my own mind. Instead of feeling stressed about work, life, weight management, money, ect. If you let that all go, you are left with the same issues just no stress with the issues. Since I have adopted this lifestyle, I have gotten sick much less than I used to, I am much more productive at work, and things seem to come easier to me. I have heard that science has proven that "de-stressing" your lifestyle leads to longer life, lower blood pressure and better attention. I think all in all, it's just a different way at looking at the same situation.

[christ]

Originally posted by iDriveX:
... "The Moron Book of Prayers" ...

That would be "Mormon"

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I'm a little jaded to Wicca not because of the tenants of it or anything, but simply because every kid who felt out of place in my high school who wanted to feel there was something special about them seemed to turn to Wicca. I'm exaggerating a bit, but it seems like the cool trendy niche belief system. That said almost everyone I've ever met who got into Wicca eventually left it because it didn't satisfy them. It seems to be one that only hardcore pagans stick with, that's just my experience of course there are some that stick with it.

There certainly are those who come for superficial reasons. CBN has been complaining lately that a lot of people have become interested in Wicca and "the occult" because of movies like Harry Potter. Those who come in because it's cool, and leave later, I don't have a great deal of respect for.

Those who come because it provides a comforting place for them to go I don't really have a problem with. I feel this way even if they don't stay. They've gotten something positive out of it, even if it only acted as a crutch for a bit while they were having trouble with social acceptance or other issues.

I also don't like the fact that in my experience most Wicca I've known have elevated the natural world to having a soul IE grass trees etc, on the same level as humans which I find kinda devaluing of human life. But again I really don't know how that translates into official Wiccan philosophy.

I wouldn't say that it elevates natural things to the same level as the human soul (frankly, I'm quite sure that there are massively varying opinions on this since Wicca is rather personal in terms of the details involved in belief). That said, animism, or natural things like plants having a spiritual aspect, is an important aspect of most of the paganism I've come across, and I think that it's fantastic. Christianity wiped out animism, and with it the sense that nature should be revered and cared for.

Some people will even attribute this to a lot of the lack of care shown towards the environment in the past and present. As an example of this sort of thing, think about Manifest Destiny.

I've always found it a bit odd... it seems everyone in my school either went Buddhist or Wiccan often guys going buddhist girls going wiccan... and both eventually dropping both systems in a year or two.

I think a lot of people go through this. Some go back to the mainstream, and a few stay as pagans or Buddhists or whatever alternative religions they've explored. I don't really see it as a bad thing, but I can understand how it might be annoying since some might just pick it up to seem cool.

I know I was annoyed with people in high school because they'd listen to certain music and buy certain clothes just to be cool. There wasn't much exploration of alternative religions that I knew about, so I didn't even know about Wicca until just months ago.

[SomeToast]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I'm a little jaded to Wicca not because of the tenants of it or anything, [...]

Is Wicca rent-controlled? I could see myself getting into it, if so.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by quandarry:
i watched a program on tv once and it interested me...it sounded saner and more realist than any other religion.

any good links?

religioustolerance.com has some info that you could use as a starting point, here.

If you want to do some reading. Margot Adler has written a rather good documenting of paganism (and related faiths) in the United States in her book, "Drawing Down the Moon."

If you're interested in reading something that'd get you started, there's Silver RavenWolf's "To Ride a Silver Broomstick."

There are some semi-wacky people and beliefs within paganism as you'll find if you read Adler's book, but most of the people I've met and interacted with seem to be kind, open-minded, and intelligent people. There isn't really any dogma associated with what would be the core of Wicca. You can personalize your beliefs, and this is why you will find such a range of people that have come to it. The "Principles of Wiccan Belief" is pretty much all there is as far as relatively universal beliefs.

[olePigeon]

Wicca is a fairly recent religion, it's an organized version of many different Celtic and Anglo-Saxon religions.

I'm not Wiccan, but I am a Naturalist (not Druidic, though.) They have some parallels because most Wiccans often assumes Naturalism as their main philosophy. Your best bet for good information is to go to your library of course! You'll find tons of books on the subject. You can also check your newspaper classifieds. You'd be surprised how many different practicing groups might be in your area.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by iDriveX:
I don't think it really matters. The only things that can be proven scientifically are scientific facts. These are obviously not scientific facts, science doesn't even account for coincidences.

Yeah, certainly. It's outside of the realm of science, and thus doesn't really conflict with it or support it.

I've never been an atheist but I was a very strong catholic believer at one point. Eventually I got sick of feeling guilty about everything I thought about and always asking for forgiveness. it doesn't make sense that a divine being would put us on a planet and infuse desire and desirous thoughts in our minds, only to condemn those thoughts and desires.

Yep. Catholicism seems to use fear and guilt a lot as motivators. The fear not so much these days, but the guilt thing still remains. This crops up in many different areas, but really, satisfying a lot of these desires results in one feeling better, and as a result, more healthy. In this sense, I think that Catholicism is unhealthy, and on some levels anti-life.

I know that last bit may result in flaming, but I don't mean it in any angry way, or to cause flaming. As a Catholic, following all of the dogma, you feel guilt over things that are natural parts of being a human being. What is the purpose in denying them, so long as nobody is hurt in pursuing them (and there, you need to use personal judgement). The Wiccan Rede essentially states, do whatever you want as long as you harm no one.

I have a mentor that once told me that there is no feeling in the world. Humans create feeling. If you took all of the humans out of the middle east. There would be no tension. Humans create and destroy tension in their own mind. If everyone in the middle east all of a sudden decided to stop creating tension. It would be a peaceful place. This was interesting to me. The same could be applied on a much smaller scale in my own mind. Instead of feeling stressed about work, life, weight management, money, ect. If you let that all go, you are left with the same issues just no stress with the issues. Since I have adopted this lifestyle, I have gotten sick much less than I used to, I am much more productive at work, and things seem to come easier to me. I have heard that science has proven that "de-stressing" your lifestyle leads to longer life, lower blood pressure and better attention. I think all in all, it's just a different way at looking at the same situation.

Indeed, the old "Don't sweat the small stuff, and It's all small stuff" is a really good way to look at things. If you let yourself get stressed over things big or small, you only do harm to yourself and the things you need to accomplish. Stress and anxiety accomplish nothing. It's a shame that the general stress level seems to be increasing.

On the Middle East stuff, it may remove a significant source of tension, but it wouldn't be the end to all of it. There are other sources out there.

I would contend that if the world would simply realize that there is nothing worth killing over, we'd have a much better world. There is absolutely nothing that gives anyone the right to end a human life.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Wicca is a fairly recent religion, it's an organized version of many different Celtic and Anglo-Saxon religions.

Yes, Wicca is indeed recent. And here's one thing to keep in mind while you're reading. Gardener, who helped popularize Wicca, made up mythology about the origins of the religion. There are others who have done this as well. Much of it is just that, made up. Some use this as a point of criticism, but it doesn't really bother me whether there's a huge history of Witches in parts of Europe who passed down this ancient religion, or whether someone invented it 50 years ago. If one can explore one's spirituality thorough it, who cares?

I'm not Wiccan, but I am a Naturalist (not Druidic, though.) They have some parallels because most Wiccans often assumes Naturalism as their main philosophy. Your best bet for good information is to go to your library of course! You'll find tons of books on the subject. You can also check your newspaper classifieds. You'd be surprised how many different practicing groups might be in your area.

Yep, good sources as well. As far as decent collections of information on local individuals, groups, and activities there's also The Witches' Voice.

[g. olson]

Just a point of clarification, if any is needed. Atheists do not believe in satan, santa, krishna, odin, zeus, or any other form of supernatural force. I am always surprised when christians think atheists are satan worshippers, not that wiccan necessarily equates to satanism either. Like all of these beliefs, there never has been a shred of evidence to suggest that there is a supernatural anything. Humans have a peculiar need to find meaning in all kinds of events that have no meaning, especially coincidence. It never occurs to us that we encounter improbable events every day, but simply fail to make a connection to them that we would call a coincidence. When you combine our pattern-recognition ability with a vivid imagination, the result is an almost endless ability to believe anything.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by jsnyder:
Christianity wiped out animism, and with it the sense that nature should be revered and cared for.

I think you meant to say Christians, or rather humans. I suggest when looking at any religion, you separate it from the people that have followed it and only value what people have done and said if they have essentially lived by the tenants of that faith.
For example Manifest-Destiny was a completely ethnocentric way of looking at things, and there was nothing biblical to support it. So it wasn't a Christian concept so much as a popular belief among people who happened to be Christian.

In fact if one takes a critical look at the bible you realize that while plants and natural things are not given overt importance at first glance, really the world God created is given a lot of importance.

As a Christian I look at all things in this world that illustrate God's authorship and artistry as terribly important. The art of the clouds, and glass, and the art of other human beings is terribly important and given great value to those who desire to know God truly. It's just something that you realize when getting to know God.

I should clear up some possible misconceptions that could arise from my previous post. If I were to prefer one path that I do not believe to lead to truth out of Wicca and most others I would choose Wicca. I believe that it and Christianity share a whole lot of truths. My only objections are where the two differ, and they do differ in some rather key areas.

My only objections to Wicca is that there is some things that seem true, but others that just don't make sense when I look at them critically.

But yeah the occult lately has been quite trendy.

[iDriveX]

Originally posted by jsnyder:
On the Middle East stuff, it may remove a significant source of tension, but it wouldn't be the end to all of it. There are other sources out there.

Well there are sources to every "problem". To Clarify, I meant, if you could take away the feelings of anxiety, stress, and anger from the middle east. It would be a peaceful place. They could come to a meeting ground to discuss their differences rationally, calmly and listen to one another. Listening and actually hearing what another party has to say is incredibly difficult if you have a completely differing point of view but it can be done. It would by no means end conflict, but it would end bloodshed, it would end fear, and it would end death.

And as for calling it the "Moron Book of Prayer", that was most likely a Freudian slip because I meant "Mormon Book of Prayer"

And while we are on this topic, Charmed is a very entertaining show to watch if you are a male that likes a good TV show that is moderately funny, has decent special effects, your basic battle of good and evil, a decent plot line, and a lot of hot girl skin showing ;-)

[Cipher13]

My ex was Wiccan, and she got me rather interested in it.

There are certain parts of it I respect quite a lot, and certain parts I don't. The beauty of it all, though, is that you can pretty much choose what you want to believe in, and how you want to practise it.

There are also so many different forms of it that there's bound to be something that suits you.

If there was one "religion" I could see myself getting into, it would be wicca. It seems very down to earth (pun not intended), most of the time.

My ex was a little flakey though... but I think her turning to Wicca was a result of her flakiness, not the other way around.

[ghost_flash]

Any

Albinos Eskimos who obsess about icecream here?

[Shaddim]

I started protestant, the rebelled and turned Wiccan (cute goth chicks), then became Gayan, then Shamanism (and studied Alchemy), then OTO. That then led to Rosicrucianism, where I (mostly) am today (with strong gnostic and Orthodox Christian leanings). I doubt I'll come full circle, who knows, but it has been an interesting ride.

Labels are odd though as they rarely identify, and mostly act as limitations. Truth is where you find it, and all beliefs have at least a grain of it within them. Not to sound condescending, I have close Wiccan friends, but I do believe it's mostly just a starting or transition point within a person's spiritual path. Few people seem to stay with it for very long.

[Tulkas]

Damn, I'm practically a wiccan in philosophy in a way, but I don't think wiccans are real.

Ok, science does factor in because "magick" exists within our realm, thus is subject to science. It simply does not work. Yes yes, a friend of a friend heard some bum mumble about his toe growing back or whatever. Show me da proof.

Its a religion of comfort. You can do basically whatever you want because its core system has only one tenant. It varies, it never takes real hold, and aside from nuts its almost entirely dominated by by adolescents. You can see why its hard to take seriously.

Its got so many brands it hurts. At its core its a big ol stew of various pagan religions, primarily celtic. It has also been made into something of a pop-religion of late.

Yes, sometimes we must take another human life. Most of us won't ever get into this situation. Wiccans will blame world leader�or anyone at all�that their killing was wrong. These people are too simple in their thinking that they can't comprehend that sometimes a few deaths will save many more. Sometimes defending an ideal is crucial. Yes, we pay a heavy price. Yes, we become responsible for every individual that dies. Lives we were given no right to take. This is the price you pay, but sometimes there is no choice.

Of course what can you expect for a pile of over-sexed teens.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I started protestant, the rebelled and turned Wiccan (cute goth chicks), then became Gayan, then Shamanism (and studied Alchemy), then OTO. That then led to Rosicrucianism, where I (mostly) am today (with strong gnostic and Orthodox Christian leanings). I doubt I'll come full circle, who knows, but it has been an interesting ride.

you seem lost. not trying to be a dink or anything but you seem to change your beliefs whenever you do your laundry.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by quandarry:
you seem lost. not trying to be a dink or anything but you seem to change your beliefs whenever you do your laundry.

That was over a span of 18 years, though my "Wicca" phase was quite short, only lasting a couple years.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by Tulkas:
Damn, I'm practically a wiccan in philosophy in a way, but I don't think wiccans are real.

Ok, science does factor in because "magick" exists within our realm, thus is subject to science. It simply does not work. Yes yes, a friend of a friend heard some bum mumble about his toe growing back or whatever. Show me da proof.

Um, OK. If it's real for me, does it matter if it's real for you? There's no proof, but there's also no disproof.

Its a religion of comfort. You can do basically whatever you want because its core system has only one tenant. It varies, it never takes real hold, and aside from nuts its almost entirely dominated by by adolescents. You can see why its hard to take seriously.

Religion should be an intensely personal thing. What's so wrong with having the flexibility? Why should I have to accept the word of some organization that's been around for hundreds, if not thousands, of years as truth? I have a brain, I can think for myself. I don't need anyone else to tell me what my spiritual life should be like.

If you're going to throw out spirituality all together and bash anyone who follows a religion, that's your prerogative. You don't have to have any religious or spiritual experiences in your life. Feel elitist for being an Atheist or Agnostic of sorts.

If you're a Christian, or Jew, or from some other organized religion, then there are plenty of supernatural things that you're expected to believe in. What makes Wiccan ones so strange? Are they really odd, or have you just grown used to the supernatural things presented by organized religion?

Its got so many brands it hurts. At its core its a big ol stew of various pagan religions, primarily celtic. It has also been made into something of a pop-religion of late.

Yes, it's a mixture of western and eastern religion. It's from all over the place. Why do people keep picking on this point? Neo-pagan religions are far more alive and adaptable. Does some book that dates back to ancient times make your religion any better? I think not. A neo-pagan sense of spirituality lives in the now, not in the past.

The thing that I keep thinking about that's quite similar is open source. Dynamic and adaptable for anyone who wants to learn, controlled by no one individual or small group of individuals.

Yes, sometimes we must take another human life. Most of us won't ever get into this situation. Wiccans will blame world leader�or anyone at all�that their killing was wrong. These people are too simple in their thinking that they can't comprehend that sometimes a few deaths will save many more. Sometimes defending an ideal is crucial. Yes, we pay a heavy price. Yes, we become responsible for every individual that dies. Lives we were given no right to take. This is the price you pay, but sometimes there is no choice.

And here, I will fundamentally disagree with you. It is precisely that attitude which allows the continuation war on a micro and macro scale. I think it's a cop out to say that there's no other choice. It's an easy way out. Just kill all of the people who disagree, problem solved, right? Wrong.

We're certainly responsible for every individual that dies, but we didn't have the right to make that choice in the first place. Killing someone is never the right solution.

Of course what can you expect for a pile of over-sexed teens.

Bitter? There may be many teenagers who call themselves witches. Some of them will stay, some won't. I don't think all of those who remain are nuts. I've met quite a few kind, intelligent people who don't fit into your stereotypes.

[Millennium]

http://www.erabat.nu/Silver-Ravenwolf's-Teen-Witch-Kit_646004.html

Is it just me, or is this an example of everything which is wrong with the current trends with Wicca?

Seriously. It seems as though it reduces Wicca to the same crass commercialism that many of its adherents accuse other religions (mostly correctly) of having fallen into. How soon, it seems, we forget the traps our forebears fell into.

[EDIT: Hmm; the forums don't seem to like the link tag for some reason, so I've just had to paste the URL in plain.]

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
I started protestant, the rebelled and turned Wiccan (cute goth chicks), then became Gayan, then Shamanism (and studied Alchemy), then OTO. That then led to Rosicrucianism, where I (mostly) am today (with strong gnostic and Orthodox Christian leanings). I doubt I'll come full circle, who knows, but it has been an interesting ride.

Rosicrucianism with a mix of Orthodox Christian???

That sounds like it deserves a thread all to itself. I realize there are lots of flavors for the R+C tradition, but I'm unaware of any that jive very well with Orthodox Christianity.

A long strange trip, indeed.

[Buck_Naked]

Me, probably just a Pagan.

[andi*pandi]

I'm a pagan poser hiding inside a closet catholic.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by iDriveX:
I don't know if I would call myself a Wiccan by name but I do believe that there is more to this plane of existence than what can be seen with the human eye. Ever since I've opened my eyes to the possibility to more, it has been enjoyable to sit back and watch Karma deal blow after blow (sometimes good, sometimes bad) to people and know what's going on. You just sit back, laugh a little and watch. It's very interesting.

I agree with this 100%. I think there is more then what we see, but I don't follow the Wiccan mentality. I'm Roman Catholic by birth and would go more their direction. I would stereotype the Wiccan "faith" as people grasping for something that simply doesn't exist. I'm all for mystical religions, but something about the way Wiccan people align themselves with Pagans bothers me. I also find that most Wiccan believers are either 16-22 with little or no post high school education.

You will also see a large population of college students experimenting with the religion to be "cool". "Wow, look at that person... how alternative." In college, I would have considered myself an atheist, but now I consider myself Catholic again.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Rosicrucianism with a mix of Orthodox Christian???

That sounds like it deserves a thread all to itself. I realize there are lots of flavors for the R+C tradition, but I'm unaware of any that jive very well with Orthodox Christianity.

A long strange trip, indeed.

It's natural for me, but then again, I find the ritual and root ideologies to be very compatible. A good example is William Gray's Sangreal Sacrament which borrows heavily from from the Divine Liturgies of St. James and Sts. Addai and Mari. One must remember that the core of Rosicrucianism (not the OTO or GD, they're "pretenders" in a sense), is in the Coptic and Western Rite catholic traditions. So, if you simply add some Freemasonry, Alchemy, and Kabbalah, you've have the vast majority of the Rosecross structure.

[benign]

Sheesh, always last to get to the party...

Pagan or religious cretin, all are
just compulsive masturbators.
People forget that the brain is
the biggest erogenous zone.

Finding meaning in chaos is
the climax - attending church
or any religious gathering the
ultimate orgy.

Death, is the wet patch.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I'm all for mystical religions, but something about the way Wiccan people align themselves with Pagans bothers me.

yes, that kind of bothers me too. the same with "christians" (or other religionists) calling everything religious that isn't christian "pagan".

i really don't know that much about paganism, per se, but isn't it a specific religion/belief in and of itself?

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by deekay1:
yes, that kind of bothers me too. the same with "christians" (or other religionists) calling everything religious that isn't christian "pagan".

i really don't know that much about paganism, per se, but isn't it a specific religion/belief in and of itself?

"Pagan" isn't all that specific, definition from dictionary.com:

pa�gan
n.
1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

There are many forms of it, older religions like that of the Egyptians, the Celts, the Norse peoples, etc..

Some have revived these old religions, others have created new ones. Wicca is basically an invented religion. Gardener made up a bunch of junk about the history of it, and others have claimed there's real history behind it, but in the end none of it can really be proven, and pretty much a cobbling together of various western and eastern religions.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by benign:
Sheesh, always last to get to the party...

Pagan or religious cretin, all are
just compulsive masturbators.
People forget that the brain is
the biggest erogenous zone.

Finding meaning in chaos is
the climax - attending church
or any religious gathering the
ultimate orgy.

Death, is the wet patch.

So, Pagans exercise a form of mental masturbation because they celebrate life and revere nature?

*shrug* Fine.

If that's what you want to think, go ahead. I don't feel even the least bit incensed at your post.

There's no reason to argue religion with anyone. Since none of it is provable scientifically, nobody can convince anyone else unless they want to be convinced. I'd be wasting my time by getting annoyed and defensive here.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I agree with this 100%. I think there is more then what we see, but I don't follow the Wiccan mentality. I'm Roman Catholic by birth and would go more their direction. I would stereotype the Wiccan "faith" as people grasping for something that simply doesn't exist. I'm all for mystical religions, but something about the way Wiccan people align themselves with Pagans bothers me. I also find that most Wiccan believers are either 16-22 with little or no post high school education.

You will also see a large population of college students experimenting with the religion to be "cool". "Wow, look at that person... how alternative." In college, I would have considered myself an atheist, but now I consider myself Catholic again.

You're making generalizations here. It's likely that you've only come into contact with these sorts of people because you've seen them at schools, or through peers of people at schools. There are Wiccans of all ages and walks of life. There are plenty who are much older than the age range you give.

As for the reaching for something that isn't there, I'll play the "If it's real for me, does it matter if it's real for you?" card. If you don't want to believe in it, you don't have to. Perfectly fine with me. I'm not out to convert anyone.

As for the "cool" factor, again it wouldn't surprise me if there are plenty of folks who are interested in it for that reason. But, there are those who aren't as well.

Frankly, I, personally, do fit within your age group as I'm 21. But it's not really cool at my university (Northwestern University). In fact, I only know 2 other people who consider themselves Wiccan. I'm sure there are others, but they don't flaunt it or try to pretend they're cool because they're different.

[jsnyder]

Originally posted by Millennium:
http://www.erabat.nu/Silver-Ravenwolf's-Teen-Witch-Kit_646004.html

Is it just me, or is this an example of everything which is wrong with the current trends with Wicca?

Seriously. It seems as though it reduces Wicca to the same crass commercialism that many of its adherents accuse other religions (mostly correctly) of having fallen into. How soon, it seems, we forget the traps our forebears fell into.

[EDIT: Hmm; the forums don't seem to like the link tag for some reason, so I've just had to paste the URL in plain.]

Yeah, that is somewhat disturbing. In fact she's parodied here: http://www.fluffbunnytrad.com/ravenwolf.html

That whole site is a parody of Wicca actually. It's rather amusing.

Personally, I'm not too worried about it falling into that as a whole. Just because one author is out to make a lot of cash off of potential Wiccans doesn't mean it's all bad. Same goes for any other religion. You can find people you'd rather not associate yourself with within any religion. If you're a liberal Christian, think CBN, Robertson, Falwell, etc.

It's much like open source to me. It's decentralized and fragmented to a degree that individual parts can refresh themselves whenever there is need. There's no one organization spreading the dogma that all will follow. There's no thousands of years old book that has to be constantly defended and referred to. Wicca is adaptable, flexible, and alive.

[Xeo]

I know a couple of ladies that don't let their kids watch Harry Potter because they fear the children will turn from god and become witches. I can't believe it. They fear Wicca is the devil at work and by watching, or reading, anything remotely similar will open your heart and mind to the devil.

It's no use talking to them about it either. They are dead set in their ways. It's Harry Potter! My god! WTF is going on here...

"Sure honey, go ahead and watch that movie with men shooting other men. After all, that one guy talks to god so it's OK for him to shoot everyone, but don't even think about watching the PG13 Harry Potter or you'll forget everything I taught you and join a cult! Oh, and Lord of the Rings is OK by me since the author was Christian."

[SilentEchoes]

I dunno but I have had some experiences closely related to what the Pagans believe and have quite a few of the same views.

I dunno basically I am an atheist with my own points of view. There is to much I hate about each and ever religion for me to be a die hard believer in any. I have my own faith in my own ideas and thats good enough for me.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by jsnyder:

4. A hedonist.

oh, cool, i'm a pagan and didn't even know it.

Originally posted by jsnyder:

Wicca is basically an invented religion... but in the end none of it can really be proven...

how is that different from any other religion?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by christ:
Does Willow count?

"Oh...ah gee I don't know."

My best willow impression.

[SomeToast]

Originally posted by Xeo:
I know a couple of ladies that don't let their kids watch Harry Potter because they fear the children will turn from god and become witches.

I loved when religious groups used an article in The Onion as proof that Harry Potter turned kids to witchcraft and Satanism.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:

I also don't like the fact that in my experience most Wicca I've known have elevated the natural world to having a soul IE grass trees etc, on the same level as humans which I find kinda devaluing of human life. But again I really don't know how that translates into official Wiccan philosophy.

I've always found it a bit odd... it seems everyone in my school either went Buddhist or Wiccan often guys going buddhist girls going wiccan... and both eventually dropping both systems in a year or two.

I'm a christian but I have to disagree with you. Grass, trees being on the same level of humans does not devalue human life. I see it as stating that life is life. It is all of equal value, and should be respected and seen as such. If we began drawing lines between different types of life where would we stop? It would be just another form of prejudice; in WWII Nazis thought that Jews were of a lower form of life then they were. Blond haired and blue eyed children were better then everyone else.

On another note, I can see why some people are looking for a different religion. Mass religions have become too corrupt by those that hold office within the church. Especially Catholism. You have priests being bounced around from parish to parish all the while molesting kids. You have religious fanatics of Islam calling for jihad and calling the deaths of hundreds of people "good" in God's eyes.

But Buddhism is not only a great philosophy but also lacks the corruption that has infected many mass religions, the same goes for Wicca. There just in no point in using it as a propaganda machine because it either isn't wide spread enough or it would go against its system.

Just like too many cooks spoil the soup, I think having too many people ruin religion.

[John B. Smith]

Originally posted by jsnyder:
I've been an atheist for some time, and wouldn't have even considered any religion of any sort prior to some changes that have taken place recently. I'd mostly attribute this long bout of atheism to private Catholic schools :-)

In any case, recently I've started reading up on Wicca and like it quite a bit. It all seems much more holistic and balanced than things I've encountered before. The macgickal stuff bugged me at first, but after reading a bit, I feel I can ascribe to the Jungian explanations of how things work.

So, are there any other Mac using Wiccans out there? An inquiring mind wants to know :-)

I hate their empty shows,
Wiccan garlands I detest,
Bring not me the late-bloom rose
Lingering after all the end.