[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Huh? I mean, what the hell are you arguing? Huh???

When I *explicitly* CREATE an alias in the file system, it behaves exactly the same as every other file, in every other location. If I drag it somewhere, it stays put, and if I drag it away from there, it moves to the new location.

The only EXCEPTIONS are the Finder sidebar and the Dock, where something is an alias despite the fact that I didn't MAKE one - I just dragged something there.

There is no way to implement this consistently with the rest of file system behavior.*) This means it's fundamentally broken, not just incompletely implemented.

Filesystem? Huh? I mean, what the heck are you saying?
Please... tell me the pathname of the Sidebar.
Show me a listing in Terminal (and i don't mean a plist).
I wasn't aware it was a filesystem object.

--

I guess this bears repeating:
Sidebar items aren't "real", they're just references. And folks need to learn that.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Filesystem? Huh? I mean, what the heck are you saying?
Please... tell me the pathname of the Sidebar.
Show me a listing in Terminal (and i don't mean a plist).
I wasn't aware it was a filesystem object.

--

I guess this bears repeating:
Sidebar items aren't "real", they're just references. And folks need to learn that.

Yep, and needing to learn something means it's unintuitive. So we're all agreed.

[zro]

Yes, so let's give it an interface where you browse for the items you want to show in the Dock or sidebar then click an "Add" button. Much more intuitive. *pfft*

Having to learn a thing does not make it unintuitive. The only things you don't have to learn are instinctual. And last time I used one, not a damn thing about a computer doesn't have to be learned. So what do we do? Not introduce new concepts that the poor users will have to learn?? Ridiculous.

The poof is intuitive. It tells you that the thing you removed wasn't real. It was a fake. A facade. The only way to delete real files is to put them in the Trash then empty it. Everybody knows this, right? Wrong. So let's all go on pointless rants on how awful deleting files that way is and having to learn it (or horror of horrors, RTFM) is bad design.

Although the Dock and sidebar do desperately need Undo.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Hal Itosis 

Filesystem? Huh? I mean, what the heck are you saying?
Please... tell me the pathname of the Sidebar.
Show me a listing in Terminal (and i don't mean a plist).
I wasn't aware it was a filesystem object.

--

I guess this bears repeating:
Sidebar items aren't "real", they're just references. And folks need to learn that.

If they're not filesystem objects, why are they added as if they were?

And why do they look like they are?

And since you can do all that, why do they suddenly disappear when you drag them somewhere else?

And where do they disappear to?

Since you're arguing that all this can be LEARNED, and you don't see why this is ****ed up on a very fundamental level, there really isn't any point in continuing discussion about how the Dock and the Finder sidebar violate user interface consistency.

If it's not an issue for you personally, more power to you, but it *is* an issue that runs contrary to the very basis of the Macintosh concept.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by zro 

The poof is intuitive. It tells you that the thing you removed wasn't real. It was a fake. A facade.

Uh, what?

The poof tells you exactly one thing: "It's gone."

That's it.

And it's a little unnerving to have a cutesy little animation inform you that you've just lost something you were merely trying to drag to a new location - or onto a backup disk.


And another issue I've encountered recently, with all the people wanting to upgrade to Leopard and asking about making backups *before* upgrading:

It's brilliant that all you really have to back up is your homefolder.

It's mind-numbingly stupid that dragging the homefolder from the only location 90% of users ever see it to an external backup disk MAKES IT DISAPPEAR in a little cloudy "poof"!

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by analogika 

If they're not filesystem objects, why are they added as if they were?

And why do they look like they are?

Actually, the sidebar looks different. It has a light blue background. People can learn the difference.

Maybe it would be easier if they were buttons, but the sidebar and the Dock would look like ass with buttons. So aesthetics takes precedence over functionality in this case.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The poof tells you exactly one thing: "It's gone."

That's it.

Gone != Deleted.

People don't understand that.

It's like thinking that if you delete a Safari bookmark, you deleted the internet page

-t

[analogika]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Gone != Deleted.

People don't understand that.

Exactly. They don't.

Change the system so that they do, since you won't be changing the people.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by zro 

Having to learn a thing does not make it unintuitive.

Actually, yes, that does make it unintuitive. The word "intuitive" means "able to be grasped by intuition, without conscious learning." Something intuitive is something that you can determine by context without having to think too much about it. If you "have to learn" something, it's not intuitive.

The Macintosh user interface tried (and mostly succeeded) to be intuitive by creating a spatial desktop metaphor where things behaved more or less like real objects and all the information you needed to interact with an object was right in front of you. I was able to suss out how the Macintosh worked just by sitting down in front of one when I was two years old.

On the other hand, I saw computer geeks with years of experience on the Mac flummoxed when they first tried to interact with the Finder sidebar in Panther. (I think the source list appearance in 10.5 is a step forward, since it now looks more like iTunes than an ordinary file listing.)

[peeb]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It's like thinking that if you delete a Safari bookmark, you deleted the internet page

No, its not. It's like if deleting the Safari bookmark sometimes deleted the internet page, and sometimes didn't. You just had to learn which was which.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

(I think the source list appearance in 10.5 is a step forward, since it now looks more like iTunes than an ordinary file listing.)

True. But it's a remedial fix - more of a patch-up than a solving of the underlying conceptual problem.

And it creates the problem that, while it looks like the source lists in iTunes and iPhoto, it works very *differently* in a couple of crucial respects - mainly, of course, the "poof"-cloud-where'd-it-go? factor.

More inconsistency to disconcert/irritate/confuse users.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It's like thinking that if you delete a Safari bookmark, you deleted the internet page

Well actually, for many novice users that's exactly what happens. If they lose the bookmark they won't get back to that page. It's just as if the page had been deleted from the internet.

Same thing with these ominous poofs. It doesn't matter if the object is still around. The mere fact that the users thinks it's gone and has no clue how to get it back already makes it bad UI.

The question is not if we understand it and know how to use it. The real issue is if a novice user can. Geeks will always find out how stuff works. What distinguishes good UI form bad UI is if non-geeks can make sense of it too.

[zro]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Actually, yes, that does make it unintuitive. The word "intuitive" means "able to be grasped by intuition, without conscious learning." Something intuitive is something that you can determine by context without having to think too much about it. If you "have to learn" something, it's not intuitive.

So a thing like walking or talking is not intuitive. You have to consciously think about these things as you do them? Get outta here.


So this all means directory trees are bad design because that seems to be a major hurdle for computer illiterates. So let's get rid of directories and just use metadata search and one great big pile of files at the root of the volume just to appease them. Hell, let's just make everything one BIG file! It'll be sooo easy for any idiot to use. "Hey, where're those TPS reports?" They're in the file!

If the user is unwilling to avail themselves of the ****ing manual it is not the fault of the software. The Dock or sidebar is not complicated and does not take any geekiness to understand. Surely you must see this.

What sounds more appealing to you? Having a simple, useful UI that someone may have to click the Help menu a couple times to fully understand or bend the entire computer using experience to the perspective of people too lazy or stupid to do that? I for one would hate to work or play using a Fisher-Price interface.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by zro 

So a thing like walking or talking is not intuitive. You have to consciously think about these things as you do them? Get outta here.

Please don't make me explain the difference between human biology and a computer interface. That's just silly.

Originally Posted by zro 

So this all means directory trees are bad design because that seems to be a major hurdle for computer illiterates. So let's get rid of directories and just use metadata search and one great big pile of files at the root of the volume just to appease them. Hell, let's just make everything one BIG file! It'll be sooo easy for any idiot to use. "Hey, where're those TPS reports?" They're in the file!

I'm not even talking about computer illiterates. There is no reasonable way somebody could be expected to know this even if they're otherwise pretty well-versed in the system — it doesn't behave like anything else in the system. It's counterintuitive, so they "have to learn it." That's called bad interface design.

Originally Posted by zro 

If the user is unwilling to avail themselves of the ****ing manual it is not the fault of the software. The Dock or sidebar is not complicated and does not take any geekiness to understand. Surely you must see this.

No, but it is more difficult than necessary. You could just as well make that argument about anything. The command line isn't complicated or necessarily calling for any geekiness to understand — it just has a lot of stuff you "just have to learn." Ditto for Windows. Ditto for every bit of counterintuitive UI design on the planet.

Originally Posted by zro 

What sounds more appealing to you? Having a simple, useful UI that someone may have to click the Help menu a couple times to fully understand or bend the entire computer using experience to the perspective of people too lazy or stupid to do that? I for one would hate to work or play using a Fisher-Price interface.

What sounds more appealing to you: Having a car with one empty wheel socket or having a car with no engine? Personally, I'd prefer a car designed by somebody competent. Is the rest of the Mac OS X interface too "Fisher-Price" for you? Was the Apple Menu a Fisher-Price interface?

[TETENAL]

The Apple-menu was a lot harder to configure for computer illiterates than the Dock.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Well actually, for many novice users that's exactly what happens. If they lose the bookmark they won't get back to that page. It's just as if the page had been deleted from the internet.

Same thing with these ominous poofs. It doesn't matter if the object is still around. The mere fact that the users thinks it's gone and has no clue how to get it back already makes it bad UI.

So, people forget that they MANUALLY dragged the item (bookmark, sidebar item) there in the first place.

I guess they do. But no computer in the world can help their Alzheimer's.

-t

Edit: corrected from grammar

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The Apple-menu was a lot harder to configure for computer illiterates than the Dock.

This is true - the Dock has its issues, but the Apple menu was far worse.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

So, people forget that they MANUALLY dragged the item (bookmark, sidebar item) there in the first place.

A lot of items in the Dock and Finder sidebar that novices use are in there by default. These shortcuts are often the only way that the user knows how to access these items, and if they remove them by accident, the user often doesn't know what to do to get them back. One example of this is... hmm, let's see... oh! The Downloads folder, which started this thread.

It is far too easy to remove things like the Downloads folder from the Dock by accident - I know I've done it. Of course, I know how to put it back, but even then, it's annoying. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what would be a good way to fix this issue, but it's undeniable that an issue does exist.

[peeb]

It's particularly annoying that usually if you move something by accident you can edit-->undo - but not with the dock...

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by peeb 

It's particularly annoying that usually if you move something by accident you can edit-->undo - but not with the dock...

I agree, that's the *least* Apple could implement, w/o having to re-think the whole approach.
It would be a rather easy fix, one would think.

-t

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The Apple-menu was a lot harder to configure for computer illiterates than the Dock.

Customizing the Apple Menu was harder, to be sure — but if "they just have to learn it" is a valid defense of UI decisions, I don't see why you'd be attacking it. But anyhow, the Dock swings the other way, and people are accidentally "customizing" away things they actually wanted. I can't tell you the number of times people have called me screaming that Firefox has disappeared from their computer. That never once happened with the Apple Menu.

[turtle777]

I'm not in defense of making UI so simplistic that even the greatest n00b is not overwhelmed by it.

At some point, people *need* to learn and understand what's beneath the surface. If you keep making things n00b-proof, you're gonna piss of power users to no end.

Good example: M$'s redesign of the Windows version of M$ Office 2007. The new UI is effing stupid, and makes power users go nuts.

-t

[peeb]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I'm not in defense of making UI so simplistic that even the greatest n00b is not overwhelmed by it.

At some point, people *need* to learn and understand what's beneath the surface. If you keep making things n00b-proof, you're gonna piss of power users to no end.

Nobody is saying that people will not have to learn anything. The problem is that when you learn "This icon behave this way", and then you have to learn "except when it doesn't".

It's not having to learn something that is the problem, it's that, having learned something, you then have to learnt that it only works sometimes.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Nobody is saying that people will not have to learn anything. The problem is that when you learn "This icon behave this way", and then you have to learn "except when it doesn't".

It's not having to learn something that is the problem, it's that, having learned something, you then have to learnt that it only works sometimes.

Maybe I don't understand the issue.

IMO, things are pretty straight in OS X:

Move object to Trash = Deleted
Empty Trash = Completely Gone
Move out of Dock / Sidebar ( "Poof" )= Reference removed, original object still in its original place.

The *ONLY* slightly confusing thing I see for n00bs is that deleting (moving to trash) of an Alias is NOT deleting the original object. So moving an Alias on the Trash should generate a Poof, to be consistent with the "Remove Reference" UI treatment.

-t

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I'm not in defense of making UI so simplistic that even the greatest n00b is not overwhelmed by it.

Neither am I. But I do support making the UI so consistent that somebody who's reasonably familiar with most of the system will be able to predict how a new part will work (or, if it absolutely must be different, have it be clear that it's different and work in a way that he can pick it up in a couple of tries).

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Move object to Trash = Deleted

Incorrect. Move to Trash = move to Trash. The item will then be there in the Trash. If for some reason the item will be immediately deleted, the Finder warns you about this nonstandard behavior.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Move out of Dock / Sidebar ( "Poof" )= Reference removed, original object still in its original place.

Exactly. If these references are visually indistinguishable from a normal file system object, why do they behave differently?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Incorrect. Move to Trash = move to Trash. The item will then be there in the Trash. If for some reason the item will be immediately deleted, the Finder warns you about this nonstandard behavior.

Of course I'm correct, "Deleted" just doesn't mean unrecoverable.
See, when we're talking n00b, he might not know that you can fish it back out of the Trash.

I said above, it's not *completely gone*, but for all intents and purposes, we should stick to the term "deleted". Otherwise, you'll make things even harder. You could call it "Trashed"

-t

[analogika]

Originally Posted by zro 

So a thing like walking or talking is not intuitive. You have to consciously think about these things as you do them? Get outta here.

What the **** are you arguing?

#1: Walking and talking are NOT intuitive - they involve a hell of a lot of gruelling (and fun) training and experimentation.

#2: "Intuitive" has a pretty clear-cut definition, and that's whether something is clearly graspable based on expectation out of past experience or basic principles of human perception WITHOUT ANY FURTHER EXPLANATION.

So this all means directory trees are bad design because that seems to be a major hurdle for computer illiterates. So let's get rid of directories and just use metadata search and one great big pile of files at the root of the volume just to appease them. Hell, let's just make everything one BIG file! It'll be sooo easy for any idiot to use. "Hey, where're those TPS reports?" They're in the file!

You think you're so smart and funny, but guess what: That's EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING. Spotlight and Google desktop exist PRECISELY BECAUSE most novice users just have one big pile of documents.

If the user is unwilling to avail themselves of the ****ing manual it is not the fault of the software. The Dock or sidebar is not complicated and does not take any geekiness to understand. Surely you must see this.

You are completely missing the point.

Get the **** out of my Macintosh GUI and type away at the command line, because that's EXACTLY what you're arguing: That everything can be learned.

And go out and do some computer support for ordinary people, because you'll quickly discover that the Dock and Finder sidebar DO take a certain "geekiness" to understand. They're an additional layer of abstraction above and beyond the file system, and they require additional risks from users to be grasped (yes, removing something knowing that it will either be gone or they'll be forced to find it again or call up someone they might have to pay - me - to get it back *is* a very real risk for a novice user. Most novices are deathly afraid of moving stuff around for fear of breaking anything and losing data).

What sounds more appealing to you? Having a simple, useful UI that someone may have to click the Help menu a couple times to fully understand or bend the entire computer using experience to the perspective of people too lazy or stupid to do that? I for one would hate to work or play using a Fisher-Price interface.

I really don't care what sounds more appealing to YOU, or to ME. What's important is what WORKS for the guy that DOESN'T hang out on an internet computer forum.

And I'm very much aware of that, since these people pay for a good portion of my rent.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Maybe I don't understand the issue.

IMO, things are pretty straight in OS X:

Move object to Trash = Deleted
Empty Trash = Completely Gone
Move out of Dock / Sidebar ( "Poof" )= Reference removed, original object still in its original place.

HOW THE HELL IS A USER SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT? is the issue.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogika 

HOW THE HELL IS A USER SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT? is the issue.

Education.

There is NO OS that's so intuitive that you don't need to know anything.
If you want that, get a TV.

If you leave out EVERYTHING in a OS that's not intuitive (e.g. Aliases), you would have the most powerless OS in the world.

-t

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The Apple-menu was a lot harder to configure for computer illiterates than the Dock.

It was also guaranteed that computer illiterates would *never* have an issue with accidentally "configuring" it - or even knowing that it was configurable at all.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Education.

There is NO OS that's so intuitive that you don't need to know anything.
If you want that, get a TV.

If you leave out EVERYTHING in a OS that's not intuitive (e.g. Aliases), you would have the most powerless OS in the world.

Of course you're right. Except not in this case.

Destructive options MUST be avoided completely unless absolutely intentionally selected. The fact that this isn't "destructive" in the sense that data is lost doesn't really make that much of a difference, since the user has no way of knowing that initially, and the situation initially might as well be the same.

And again: Aliases are fine. But the fact that you keep mentioning them highlights the problem and source of confusion: Dock and sidebar links AREN'T ALIASES, because aliases look different, and work completely differently, and because you have to *explicitly create them* (except in the other stupid situation where you drag a disk or mounted disk image to your drive to copy it, and it inexplicably just creates an alias. - that alias, of course, doesn't just disappear in a little poof cloud when you move it. Huh.).

[Gamoe]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I can't tell you the number of times people have called me screaming that Firefox has disappeared from their computer. That never once happened with the Apple Menu.

Back in the day, I just had an alias in the Apple menu of the Apple menu items folder named "Edit Apple Menu..." , which I began with some odd character so that it would always stay at the bottom of the menu.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Good example: M$'s redesign of the Windows version of M$ Office 2007. The new UI is effing stupid, and makes power users go nuts.

Although I despise M$ software, I have a good amount of experience with Office 2007, as I tutor students in it. I think what you meant to say is that it drives users with lots of experience nuts. I myself have had to relearn where everything is. But as much as I despise it, I don't think it's a bad thing.

They consolidated the GUI, and just ripped out all the menu items and made them into toolbar ribbons, which is how I've observed most people use Office (2003 and earlier versions) anyway. So while it's been a learning process for me, because I am used to the menu paradigm, it is precisely because of this that I don't find it "intuitive".

The problem is, the more of a "power user" you are, the more perspective you lose, because you come closer and closer to how programmers and app. designers think and now expect future feedback in that context. You've adapted to the computer.

But, a non-technically inclined novice cannot often do so, so the GUI has to be designed so that it fits another paradigm, taking context from more general or generally-understood, non-computer specific ideas. The Mac's desktop metaphor and (now broken) spatial Finder are good examples of this.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Education.

There is NO OS that's so intuitive that you don't need to know anything.
If you want that, get a TV.

If you leave out EVERYTHING in a OS that's not intuitive (e.g. Aliases), you would have the most powerless OS in the world.

To interact with a complex, abstract machine like a computer, some context is always necessary. But there are different levels and directions to this. For example, in the late 80s, Apple designed a GUI simple enough for Koko, a gorilla who certainly didn't have any prior computer experience, to use.

I'm sure Koko had to learn a few things, but I'm not sure if we should consider her a "power user". At any rate, that is an example of an intuitive interface, versus giving Koko the command line instead.

Besides, I think we're all forgetting something...

We're talking about computers here. We don't have to be stuck with a one-size-fits-all paradigm or another, though it often seems that way because of Apple's restrictive Utopian view. Remember the "Simple Finder" option is still there, though it's practically useless because it's just a cut off version of the regular Finder.

However, Apple could certainly craft a Finder specifically for non-power users and one for power users, or make the Finder more modular, and give us more radio buttons and check mark boxes to turn more options off and on. The problem is, that simply isn't Apple's way. I mean, Apple doesn't let us customize the colors of scrollbars, buttons and widgets, or let us put both up/down scroll arrows on the top and bottom of the scrollbar.

But, to be honest, the terminal makes up for any of that, as far as power is concerned. I say, not sarcastically, and very honestly-- that no matter what happens with the GUI, the terminal will assure that Mac OS X will never be a "powerless OS".

But the GUI should and can indeed be both intuitive and powerful, which is what the Mac is all about.

[0157988944]

If this hasn't already been pointed out, further convoluting the dock is the fact that you CAN delete actual files from stacks, by dragging them to the trash.

Perhaps this should be the way you remove things from the dock: dragging to trash. The label over the trash ("Remove from Dock") makes clear the resulting action, and it is very tricky to do accidentally, but easy to do when you want to.

[CharlesS]

Hmm, I could get behind that. Certainly better than the current system, anyway.

[peeb]

That would work - same way you dismount disks.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Perhaps this should be the way you remove things from the dock: dragging to trash. The label over the trash ("Remove from Dock") makes clear the resulting action, and it is very tricky to do accidentally, but easy to do when you want to.

This is an excellent suggestion. However, it does not solve the related issue of Finder sidebar items. You could of course also require sidebar items to be dragged to the trash rather than off the sidebar. But that is sure to prompt criticism from those people that do not have (and do not want to be forced to having) their Dock or trash visible at all times.