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snotnose · Feb 12, 2003, 12:44 AM

what do you think would be happening right now if gore had been elected president instead of bush?

who would all of you Bush haters blame then? what would be your excuse to keep hating? and who is next in line?

Sealobo · Feb 12, 2003, 12:46 AM

Errrr... who knows?

It's just a mess now.

Millennium · Feb 12, 2003, 12:47 AM

If Gore were President?

We wouldn't be going to war with Iraq. But the economy would be just as bad, and we'd be under the same Big Brother system that Bush's administration has proposed, and Clinton's administration before it, but which Bush's administration has been -thankfully- too inept to push through.

And I would have been killed for saying something like this. Bush is inept, but it's that very ineptitude that has saved us from losing what little freedom we have left. Clinton and Gore were masters at this sort of thing, or have you forgotten about Clipper?

Jansar · Feb 12, 2003, 12:51 AM

The democrats would act drunk all the time and they'd grow these weird-looking goatees so they can brag and say, "Hey, I look like our fearless leader, President Gore!" And then they would go home and order a martini to shake off the fact that they have to pay extra taxes.

undotwa · Feb 12, 2003, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
If Gore were President?

We wouldn't be going to war with Iraq. But the economy would be just as bad, and we'd be under the same Big Brother system that Bush's administration has proposed, and Clinton's administration before it, but which Bush's administration has been -thankfully- too inept to push through.

And I would have been killed for saying something like this. Bush is inept, but it's that very ineptitude that has saved us from losing what little freedom we have left. Clinton and Gore were masters at this sort of thing, or have you forgotten about Clipper?

I don't know about that. Is there any, if little difference between the policies of the democrats and the republicans? They seem to now be very similar.

Jutaro · Feb 12, 2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
If Gore were President?

...we'd be under the same Big Brother system that Bush's administration has proposed, and Clinton's administration before it, but which Bush's administration has been -thankfully- too inept to push through.

That's not ineptitude, it's the "slick Willy shuffle", propose something as a reactionary measure, then let it die if it appears too unpopular.

def H H H · Feb 12, 2003, 02:16 AM

The democrats would act drunk all the time and they'd grow these weird-looking goatees so they can brag and say, "Hey, I look like our fearless leader, President Gore!" And then they would go home and order a martini to shake off the fact that they have to pay extra taxes.

I can see it now.

The Mick · Feb 12, 2003, 02:49 AM

If Gore were President, he'd propose we contain Saddam Hussein in a middle east "lockbox" to protect us from the terrorists.

I have a more intriguing thought, what if John McCain were president?

voodoo · Feb 12, 2003, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by The Mick:
If Gore were President, he'd propose we contain Saddam Hussein in a middle east "lockbox" to protect us from the terrorists.

I have a more intriguing thought, what if John McCain were president?

At least he'd have some credibility for wanting war in Iraq, having served in Vietnam. I wonder what kind of government he would have chosen. Would he too have chosen Cheney, Rumsfeld et al?

Jutaro · Feb 12, 2003, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
At least he'd have some credibility for wanting war in Iraq, having served in Vietnam. I wonder what kind of government he would have chosen. Would he too have chosen Cheney, Rumsfeld et al?

Yeah, he served:

According to Michael O'Hara, Gore's closest army buddy, "We never pulled guard duty in the field because we weren't part of those units. The only place we stood guard was back at Bien Hoa," the secure base where Gore lived. "It was the equivalent of being a school crossing guard. I know guys that didn't even take their rifles with them." (The National Review, November, 1999) Other soldiers with long experience in Vietnam said that Gore was treated differently from his fellow enlistees. H. Alan Leo, a photographer in the press brigade office where Gore worked as a reporter, said soldiers were ordered to keep Gore out of harm's way. "It blew me away," Leo said. "I was to make sure he didn't get into a situation he could not get out of. They didn't want him to get into trouble. So we went into the field after the fact [after combat actions], and that limited his exposure to any hazards." (Los Angeles Times 10/15/99) Leo described his half-dozen or so trips into the field with Gore as situations where "I could have worn a tuxedo." (Newsweek, 12/6/99)

Gore's tour "mysteriously" was 5 months instead of the usual 12 and he has NO REAL combat experience.

voodoo · Feb 12, 2003, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Jutaro:
Yeah, he served:

Gore's tour "mysteriously" was 5 months instead of the usual 12 and he has NO REAL combat experience.

WTF! I was talking about John McCain. *Major knee-jerk*

like, wow.

If only you had read my post Jutaro. Tsk tsk.

Speckledstone · Feb 12, 2003, 07:32 AM

Great picture.

Thanks Jutaro, I never saw that before.

I was about to give Gore some credit for (at least) having the magazine out of the rifle, then I noticed what position the selector lever was in...

This diagram is of an M16A2. AFAIK, all versions of the M16 have the same 'Safe' position on the selector lever.

gadster · Feb 12, 2003, 07:41 AM

Anyone got any similar pictures of Bush?

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 12, 2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Speckledstone:
This diagram is of an M16A2. AFAIK, all versions of the M16 have the same 'Safe' position on the selector lever.

That's hilarious! Yes, the M-16A1 has the same selector lever. Instead of burst, you have auto on the A1, but the positions are the same. Actually, I don't think he's being dangerous. He's probably just fumbling inspect arms.

P.S. did you notice how clean his gear is? Look at the canteen caps. Factory fresh! That wet weather jacket and boonie cap are immaculate too. Someone at CIF loved him!

P.P.S. Jokes aside, I do respect Gore for enlisting. Not many Harvard graduates did that. But he was a journalist, not a front line soldier and so it is understandable that his combat and field craft skills would have been sketchy.

Speckledstone · Feb 12, 2003, 08:18 AM

Hey Simey, do you think he's getting ready for a long hump? I hope not, especially if he's going to wear that 'Gumby Suit' jacket. That would be just about as bad as MOPP gear.

< Sweat (not tears)

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 12, 2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Speckledstone:
Hey Simey, do you think he's getting ready for a long hump? I hope not, especially if he's going to wear that 'Gumby Suit' jacket. That would be just about as bad as MOPP gear.
< Sweat (not tears)

I doubt it. There is also nothing in his rucksack. It's a baby ruck and it's mostly collapsed. He's got his flack jacket rolled up and tied on the top of the frame, and his M-17 gas mask tied to the bottom. He's also got the plastic cap on the end of his rifle. But at least it's not a blank adapter.

Zimphire · Feb 12, 2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by The Mick:
If Gore were President, he'd propose we contain Saddam Hussein in a middle east "lockbox" to protect us from the terrorists.

That "Lockbox" stuff really cracked me up.

Zimphire · Feb 12, 2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
At least he'd have some credibility for wanting war in Iraq, having served in Vietnam. I wonder what kind of government he would have chosen. Would he too have chosen Cheney, Rumsfeld et al?

I wouldn't really call what Gore did, serving in NAM.

Zimphire · Feb 12, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:

P.P.S. Jokes aside, I do respect Gore for enlisting. Not many Harvard graduates did that. But he was a journalist, not a front line soldier and so it is understandable that his combat and field craft skills would have been sketchy.

Yes, I have more respect for Gore than say Clinton. At least Gore PRETENDED to go to war. He didn't take off to a different country.

Spliffdaddy · Feb 12, 2003, 08:55 AM

good try, but I still have no respect for Gore.

Zimphire · Feb 12, 2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
good try, but I still have no respect for Gore.

Eh, I have respect for anyone that made it as far as he did.

Speckledstone · Feb 12, 2003, 09:03 AM

Zimphire, voodoo was talking about McCain. Better change that post before he has one of his hissey fits.

Zimphire · Feb 12, 2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Speckledstone:
Zimphire, voodoo was talking about McCain. Better change that post before he has one of his hissey fits.

I don't remember responding to voodoo in ths thread. If I did, please point it out. I am going senile in my old age.

davesimondotcom · Feb 12, 2003, 10:42 AM

Honestly, the situation would be very similar.

The economy would be in the same position or worse. The Bush tax cut acted as some stimulation, but it's still stagnant.

September 11th would have still happened. Terrorism would still be a problem. The Patriot Act would have still become law.

The Congress would be bickering even more - the Dems would have more confidence with a President to back them.

Iraq would still be violating the UN. Although Gore took a "Bush is wrong" stance as an observer, he more than likely would have been a hawk as President. Hawks are deterent. Doves get run over.

Of course this is all speculation. Gore isn't and will never be President. And who knows which Al Gore would have shown up each day.

Depends on the polls, I guess.

(There would be a helluva lot less vandalized STOP signs saying "STOP WAR", though. There are a small percentage of the "anti-war" crowd still opposed to the war - true pacifists with convictions. But their numbers would not include the anti-Bush people.)

Oh, and Gore has oil interests too - so it would be a war for oil.

davesimondotcom · Feb 12, 2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by The Mick:
If Gore were President, he'd propose we contain Saddam Hussein in a middle east "lockbox" to protect us from the terrorists.

That was my first belly laugh of the day. Thanks Mick!

BRussell · Feb 12, 2003, 12:19 PM

Good thread.

I don't think Gore would have taken out the Taliban after 9/11. I think there would have been military and paramilitary actions against bin Laden and Al Qaeda specifically, but not the Taliban.

The deficit would be about half of what it is under Bush. I base that on estimates that about half the deficit is due to Bush's tax cuts.

Gore would have responded to the Enron/accounting scandals virtually identically to Bush, but he would have been accused of being anti-business for doing so.

The media would not have the kid gloves on like they do for Bush. They would be talking about his "character problems."

Assuming that Gore would have won in the recount if Bush hadn't sued him to stop them, Republicans and conservatives and talk radio and Brit Hume would have been in a perpetual lynch mob for him. It would have died down somewhat after 9/11, but they wouldn't have been able to restrain their rhetoric and there would have been a backlash against them.

People would be saying "can you imagine if that guy Bush were president now?" :shudder:

We would not be in this situation with Iraq. We might still be on the edge of war - remembering that "regime change" was initially Clinton's policy, if Iraq had continued to follow its previous pattern, Gore would have been perceived to be reluctantly drawn into it, unlike Bush. For this reason, the whole world would be behind the war if it came to that.

I think it's at least possible that 9/11 could have been prevented. Remember how much information the FBI had and how badly they dropped the ball. Perhaps there would have been different people in place or a different attitude coming from the top. The Clinton-Gore admin. did stop the Millennium bombing, so they do have a track record on preventing large-scale terrorism.

davesimondotcom · Feb 12, 2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
I think it's at least possible that 9/11 could have been prevented. Remember how much information the FBI had and how badly they dropped the ball. Perhaps there would have been different people in place or a different attitude coming from the top. The Clinton-Gore admin. did stop the Millennium bombing, so they do have a track record on preventing large-scale terrorism.

I just don't think that any particular administration can be blamed for 9/11. It was a total breakdown of intelligence. Gore being Prez wouldn't have changed it.

The change of administration from Clinton to Bush didn't change personnel in the FBI and CIA (the day to day ranks), so the "different people" stuff just doesn't play.

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 12, 2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
The change of administration from Clinton to Bush didn't change personnel in the FBI and CIA (the day to day ranks), so the "different people" stuff just doesn't play.

Yes. And for the same reason, catching the Millennium bombers wasn't because of cabinet officers in Washington. It was because of alert law enforcement officers on the border who just happened to pull over the right car. They deserve the praise, not the politicians.

finboy · Feb 12, 2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by snotnose:
what do you think would be happening right now if gore had been elected president instead of bush?

who would all of you Bush haters blame then? what would be your excuse to keep hating? and who is next in line?

If Gore were running the show, we'd have all held hands after 9/11 and done d*ck about it, and the same level of threat would still remain. That, combined with loud wailing and gnashing of teeth and pledges of "diplomatic solutions."

The Palestinian question would remain unquestioned, with no pressure on the current regime to allow free elections.

The North Korea thing would be different, though, because we'd be kissing their asses and paying our tribute to save Slick Willie's face.

The main difference would be that the media would still be smooching the butts of those in the White House and Congress, instead of serving as the attack dog of the Left.

finboy · Feb 12, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Yes. And for the same reason, catching the Millennium bombers wasn't because of cabinet officers in Washington. It was because of alert law enforcement officers on the border who just happened to pull over the right car. They deserve the praise, not the politicians.

Yeah, but the Times Square thing was due to intelligence gathering, wasn't it? It wasn't ALL just luck.

But the main point is that the FBI/CIA didn't change effectiveness due to a regime change in Washington, EXCEPT for the political undertones at the top levels prior to the Bush Administration. I think Bush lets FBI run its show and CIA run its, versus trying to be politically correct about everything and running things from Washington all the time.

BRussell · Feb 12, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Yes. And for the same reason, catching the Millennium bombers wasn't because of cabinet officers in Washington. It was because of alert law enforcement officers on the border who just happened to pull over the right car. They deserve the praise, not the politicians.

But remember they pulled over the right car before 9/11 too (Moussaoui), but just didn't put it all together. The information they had prior to both situations was quite similar.

zigzag · Feb 12, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Yes, I have more respect for Gore than say Clinton. At least Gore PRETENDED to go to war. He didn't take off to a different country.

Or go AWOL from a National Guard unit in Texas.

Funny photo of Gore!

SimeyTheLimey · Feb 12, 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by BRussell:
But remember they pulled over the right car before 9/11 too (Moussaoui), but just didn't put it all together. The information they had prior to both situations was quite similar.

Don't forget the element of luck and the human factor of good, or bad judgment at the time. In the real world, those are the critical elements.

12/31/1999 was also a bit more of an obviously targeted date than 9/11/2001. It's understandable that everyone would be on a higher state of alert then than what seemed like an ordinary fall date.

finboy · Feb 12, 2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by zigzag:
Or go AWOL from a National Guard unit in Texas.

Learning to fly a jet or being a military reporter in Vietnam are more dangerous than just about anything most of us can imagine. Those of you who want to slam either guy for their service can have a big cup of shut the f*ck up.

zigzag · Feb 12, 2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by finboy:
Learning to fly a jet or being a military reporter in Vietnam are more dangerous than just about anything most of us can imagine. Those of you who want to slam either guy for their service can have a big cup of shut the f*ck up.

I wasn't slamming anyone for their service. I was referring to the AWOL part.

wdlove · Feb 12, 2003, 10:05 PM

I would be very afraid, how much more would he be giving to our enemies. We can thank Bill Clinton for North Korea's ability to strike California just one example!

malvolio · Feb 12, 2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by finboy:
If Gore were running the show, we'd have all held hands after 9/11 and done d*ck about it, and the same level of threat would still remain. That, combined with loud wailing and gnashing of teeth and pledges of "diplomatic solutions."

The Palestinian question would remain unquestioned, with no pressure on the current regime to allow free elections.

The North Korea thing would be different, though, because we'd be kissing their asses and paying our tribute to save Slick Willie's face.

The "same level of threat" still does exist.
The Palestinian situation would almost certainly be better. Even Bush supporters admit that he hasn't done one d@mn thing to resolve anything in that area.
So what's Bush doing when he offers to send North Korea oil if they "play nice"?
Moron.